Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

'99 Silverado/Sierra vs. F-150

1…468910

Comments

  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    By the looks of your posts, you are the only ones crying here. You Ford guy's are a riot. Can't take defeat.

    La who za hers! Losers!
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    ?babys? should be "babies". Who's the language retard here????
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    For all you Ford punks that wanted facts, here are some interesting ones.

    1999 Recalls

    Ford F150:

    Recall #98V194000 - Fuel pressure regulator o-rings are damaged or incorrectly installed causing fuel vapor or leakage, fire hazard recall

    Recall # 98V192000 Speed control cable may not have been fully seated into the accelerator bracket at time of installation causing possible separation from bracket causing accelerator to stick, collision risk

    Recall # 98V161000 Leaf springs can be overstressed causing a possible fatigue fracture. This has caused punctures of the fuel cells when the spring breaks resulting in fuel leaks, fire safety hazard

    Recall # 98V095000 Lug nuts may not create sufficient clamp load allowing wheel movement in relation to the hub/rotor assy mounting surface. This can result in loosening of lug nuts, stud fatigue failure, and potentially a wheel separation from the vehicle, collision risk.

    Recall # 97V171000 Automatic transmission shift cable assy not fully attached to the steering column bracket. The shift cable assy can come out of the bracket causing the driver to not be able to shift the transmission from one of the drive gear postions to the park postion, EVEN THOUGH THE SHIFT SELECTOR WOULD INDICATE "PARK"., risk of vehicle to roll while assumed in "park".

    There were a couple other less severe recalls but RECALLS, not service bulletins non the less.

    1999 Silverado:

    Recall # 98V242000 Extended cab 4-wheel drive pickup trucks. Some of these vehicles have a lower than specified torque on all three of the steering gear to frame attachment bolts. The bolts can loosen over time allowing the steering gear to move. This loosening can result in some unresponsive steering feel and some noise to the driver.

    Thats it, ONE RECALL. Comparing the service bulletins, Chevy had fewer service bulletins also.

    HMMMMMM!
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    Gee, does my MSEE degree beat an ACT score? My IQ is 140. 110 is average. HMMMM!
    You Ford guy's just never seem to be right!
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Whoaaaaa....! Back to real conversation.....
    ZBADD,
    You lend yourself to ridicule due to such outlandish comments that repeatedly spew from your mouth. How can you bash the Ford motor as it's a "car" engine but then praise the new Chevys based on the Vette engine? What is a Corvette? Car maybe? Still there?
    If you think the looks of the Ford are "cheesy" then guess who looked really "cheesy" owning one?--You--as you claimed. I still doubt you have ever owned that truck due to your rantings on how ugly it is. Where is the defense here?
    Where are supposed facts that Chevys last longer? The Chevy ads? Gee, it was last year that Dodge was claiming that one.....
    One theory if it is true--Ford sells more trucks to commercial consumers and therefore are used more vigorously and hence--maybe?--the "supposed" facts.
    How do you explain Chevy selling ANY trucks prior to 97? Or 99? Ford was a clearcut leader in quality back then but somehow GM managed to sell their trucks.
    GM is larger. That was my point. GM is 1.5 times the volume of Ford yet barely holds on when truck sales are considered. That means Ford must make a good truck. Marketing doesn't count due to the fact that all companies swamp every media avenue to sell their products.
    Diesel doesn't matter? Nice answer when you know the truth about the crappy motors GM has slithered out of their plants. I'll give some points for spinning away from that subject.
    Push-rod motors superior? Which area? Heavier with more energy wasted? Push-rod is OLD technology! Motorcycles are usually the avant-guard of tech heads and only the beasts from Harley have push-rods and have secretly been designing an overhead version with Porsche. (Notable exception: Y.Road Satr because of the "looks.)

    What's up with the Chevy clowns? They claim that Ford owners are blind to the blue oval but defend their Bowties like screaming, competing white trash girlfriends over Bubbas affection......

    Kernick,
    Sorry but 35mpg is hard to believe. I'll grant you a benefit of the doubt because I generally feel that you're above the fray. It's just that my wife's Olds Intrigue, with the 3.8L, can't get anywhere near that figure but alas, I'm only using one GM product as a measuring stick.

    You guys are posting too damn much!! It's getting hard to keep up! I can only jump in when my work is done....After half of employees are only playing with my "play" trucks. Right Lethal??
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Here you go again.....

    Who cares about degrees here? I only have a BA in history--I guess I'm a "loser". Yet, how many history major "losers" realize a good opportunity and switch gears and jump into their own buisness?
    lvstang and big snag,
    You guys better be making "six figures" as well because otherwise ZBAD will consider you "losers" as well!
    I'll never forget the "six figure" quote. Remember that one ZBAD? Since then, you have ridiculed guys who buy trucks for speed or suvs and don't go offroad but before that----you ranted at me for using my work experiences in these debates---remember? So which is it? Trucks for only working purposes or anything? Now you're concerned about the HD truck lines? I smell some hypocrisy from that Chevy you are driving......
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    I wouldn't say push rod motors are superior, but I would not say overhead cam engines with only two valves per cylinder are decidedly superior either. Ford gets better power, but GM gets better fuel mileage.

    Don't those Ducati twins have push rods? They have been spanking the Japanese 4's with DOHC's for some time in World Superbike.
  • bigsnagbigsnag Member Posts: 394
    Zbad,
    You might want to go find out what MCAT even stands for before you go spouting off about your degrees and your I.Q. Sorry to disappoint you but 140 won't impress me or a good number of my colleagues. Let me know if you need references.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Quadrunner,
    I stand corrected but the Duc doesn't use convential push-rods. They have some form of actuated rods unique to themselves. Spanking Japanese fours? When? The seventies? Let me know when the DUC boys and make a bike for the 600 or 750 class and compete then we'll talk.
    Want a fast bike? R6 from Yamaha. Hell, my magna and modified Superglide can hold with all Ducs with the exception of the monster.....Sorry for going off the subject. ;)
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Quad,

    Are you confusing Duc with Laverda? I won't claim any vast knowledge on Euro races but I know here that it's generally a Honda or Yammy in the winners corner.

    BTW, I only have a 130 IQ. At least that's what my "mommy" said years ago. I'm such a "loser"!
  • bigsnagbigsnag Member Posts: 394
    Nice try to count up recalls from three years. But the first two numbers in the NHTSA Campaign ID number designate the year of vehicle being recalled. Man, I knew this I.Q. would come in handy. Wrong again, eh ZBad.
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    If you were as bright as you claim, you would know that those recalls rolled over to the 99's also. I knew when I posted those figures that you would try and pull that one off. What's really funny is that since they have rolled over to the 99's, whats up with Ford? Can they not learn from their mistakes to eliminate problems from the next model year? You just made a valid point AGAINST the Fords!

    About the I.Q. comments, slanders, etc. I am not usually the one to start such nonsense and again, I don't feel like I did here either. All you and your tag team buddies have gotten all worked up over comments I have made to support why GM builds a better truck than Ford. I have heard every "excuse" in the book why what I have said is not valid. I hear a whopping 2 very lame reasons you consider valid for the Ford being a better built truck than the Silverado.

    You rebute all the facts I have given you that are plain and clear to be technological advantages and proof of a more durable and rigid design. One comment that was made, "Jeep has had a similar Autotrac system for years". That may well be true. That just means that Chevy was good to follow that technology. Why is Ford not even a good follower then? They can't lead in technology and they aren't smart enough to take advantage of technology that is already available???????

    You guy's started all the heated conversation and name calling. I can go back and paste in all the posts that started this heated debate. You Ford guy's started taking things said about your Fords personally! Why?! Its a frickin truck for Gods sake! Do you put all your self worth and value in a truck? You all seem to think that I am the bad guy here, but if you want me to list the posts you made that started the heat and the sand to fly, I will be glad to do so!!! You guy's just got mad because I gave legitimate reasons for the Chevy to be a better built truck, it was supported by hard data, which you all seem to think is the only thing that makes it valid (Opinions and real life experiences don't seem to have value to you), the data I gave was also supported by other Chevy owners in this forum and when you could not deny the facts, you got all ticked off and started slamming me. Its not my fault you bought a second place truck!

    I bought the 98 Ford I had in spite of the no character exterior because, like I have said many times, I have always owned Fords in the Full size 1/2 ton trucks. I also have a 1 ton Chevy with 454 that I think has been tops compared to the Fords I have owned, but not having had any problems with the light duty Ford trucks in my past, I overlooked the undesireable exterior to buy a truck I thought would be quality. I don't buy trucks based on looks alone. I am glad though, that my Silverado has both Superior quality AND looks over the new model Fords!

    I can stop the slamming any time you Ford guy's can take criticism of your Ford trucks. I have not taken offense of your negative comments about the Silverado and I have mentioned more than once that if Ford builds a 1/2 ton truck that is superior to the Silverado line, I will have no problem buying one in a couple of years when I am ready to buy again.

    Just get over it!
  • lvstanglvstang Member Posts: 149
    Roc is correct on the Ducatis. They use a bi-level gear drive for the valves. I think it's called Desmodronic. One thing to remember though is 2 cylinder bikes (Harley and Duc) are allowed big displacement advantages over the four cylinder bikes. Sorry for going off the topic.
  • z71josez71jose Member Posts: 22
    Hmm...back in 1996 when I was going to buy
    my FIRST NEW TRUCK, I had an open mind.
    I test drove and did my research on ALL THREE, and the Chevy came on top. It looks
    like I made a good choice. I bought a 1996
    Z71, and in 3 1/2 years, have 94,000 miles,
    hauled trailers, taken it off-roading in Mexico,
    had a wreck in it 8 months after I bought it,
    ($5000 worth of damage), and use it as a
    daily commuter...and it's still going. The only
    thing I had to change was the alternator and
    windshield wiper relay. The only one complaint
    I have is the stupid steering wheel keeps
    peeling-off. Also, for the record, 2 days ago
    I saw a failry-new Expedition loose the left
    front-wheel!!!!! It literally came-off the vehicle!!!
    Luckily he was going about 20mph on the
    service road. Imagine if he was on the highway.
    I believe there is a recall on this problem on
    ALL Ford trucks and SUV's based on the F150.
    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying my Z71
    Will NEVER break-down. It's a machine, and
    like any machine I'm sure it will eventually
    break down. But at least when mine break-down
    I can push it, since it will have all its wheels
    in place.
  • meredithmeredith Member Posts: 575
    As a result of flagrant violations of the Participant's Agreement....

    in the use of inappropriate language, and an uncivil attitude, this conference is "frozen" until 29 Sept 99.

    Front Porch Philosopher
    SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    Just like children whom do not like to be told no, such are the children here that don't like anyone saying anything bad about the F150, thus all the sand flying around.

    This started out a casual topic merely discussing what each person liked or disliked about the competition and their views why one was better to them than the other. However, with all the juveniles throwing tantrums, you should probably wear a hard hat.

    Glad you like your Silverado. Even the people who have had problems with their Silverado, still like the Silverado over the competition. Several people have mentioned that they got a buy back, then went and bought another identical Silverado in the next year and have had no problems. There are always minor problems to work out in the first model year. Ford is STILL feeling new model pains almost three years later. I would say that as minor of problems that have arisen and especially how few of them that have occurred, this new Silverado has been a huge success!
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    The Pot calling the kettle black.
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    Perfect example.......

    You just validated my point.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    HUH? 360 degrees?
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    This is a very interesting topic with some wierd responces. I did a lot of comparing before deciding on my new truck. I was looking for a 1/2 ton regular cab 4X4. Power, mileage, and comfort were my major decision makers. After much research I picked a GMC 1500 (I like it's looks better than the Chevy). I use to sell Fords (and personally don't get into all this loyality b.s.).

    Power it seems GM has an advantage. 2000 models rated 285 H.P. (5.3L) is hard to beat. Ford closed the gap this year (260 H.P. 5.4L), but Dodge lags behind 250 H.P. 5.9L. Overblown?? Who knows... Having driven all, they all felt strong, but a slight edge to the GM. I believe GM has a good gas engine line up - probably the best, Ford second, Dodge needs help.

    Comfort was closer. I really did not have a strong preference. But, also gave the advantage to GM. Seats felt good, tow/haul is a nice feature, autotrac is great, heated mirrors - seemed to be a little more cutting edge than the Ford and the Dodge.

    Gas mileage also goes to GM. I believe the 5.3L is rates 15/18 compared to 12/15 in both Ford and Dodge. Given the H.P. numbers and the gas mileage this is a hard combo to beat. Kudos to GM.

    Overall, it seems that the 1/2 ton 5.3L 4X4 is hard to beat. Ford and Dodge make good trucks. Ford's superduty is a tough truck and the powerstroke is probably the best diesel out there right now. GM is missing the boat on that and the 4-door issue. Dodge had an exciting product when it was first introduced, but lower power, poor gas mileage, and technology lagging will not help it keep it's momentium. I hope they make some significate improvments quickly.

    That's the great thing about these trucks. Although I think GM has the best package right now, it won't be long until the others catch up and surpass GM. Which leads to more powerful, advanced trucks!! Lucky us..

    Ordered my Y2K Sierra and should have it in Dec. With a few performance mods. I should be able to get 330-350 H.P. out of it - it should be a rocket - can't wait.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Motor trend just did a comparo of the V10 F350 4x4, Ram 1500 4x4 5.9L, Chevy 2500 2wd 6.0L with 4.10 axle, and Tundra 2wd 4.7L.

    Petersen Publishing should just stick to testing cars. What a motley assortment of non-comparable trucks. Lots of errors too. The weight of the 2wd Chevy 2500 extended cab long bed was less than the weight of the short bed 1/2 ton tested by Truck Trend earlier. And they quoted an EPA figure for 15 city, 18 Hw. Not that some of you aren't getting that, but EPA doesn't have ratings for trucks in the 8600 GVWR class.
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    I agree 100% with everything you said. Unfortunately, some in this topic tend to go mental when you say anything not in favor of Ford.

    I am not a loyal owner to Chevy. If Ford gets their head out of their dead tail end and makes a truck to really compete, I may go back to Ford. I owned Ford trucks for 15 years without any complaints. The new model trucks just have a lot left to be desired. Really a poor lineup in my opinion.

    Thanks for your opinion. The way it was presented, even if I hadn't agreed with you, I wouldn't have taken offense to it. Some of the children around here can't do that.

    Take care.
  • dean28dean28 Member Posts: 6
    Hey truck lovers, just thought i would give my 2 cents, so here goes. Well ive owned fords, chevys, dodges, and japanise and i have had the best luck with the japanise and chevys. The fords had the most problems and eventually i stopped buying them. I am very mechanically inclined and do all of my servicing and most of the repairs myself. After owning and working on almost every make the japanise were the most reliable followed by the GM products, but lets face it the japanise pickups are just too small! Well not to get off the subject im looking to replace my 94 jeep grand cheeroke ltd, which we have been very happy with, and it looks like after weighing all the facts and trying them out i am going to undoubtedly go for the chevy or GMC for many reasons. I just wish that i could get the 6.0 in the 1/2 especially after whatching motor trend tv do a comparison on the 3/4 6.0 vs the ford v-10 to which the chevy pulled as well if not outpulled the v-10, got better gas mileage, rode much better, was easier to load, and could even haul more! It was no wonder they said that even though the GMC cost 3,000 more than the ford tester they would pay that much more any day for all these reasons. But back to the 1/2 vs the f-150 they are both pretty close but the chevy is my pick for various reasons. no offense to the ford guys as they do build a mean truck especially the lightning. PS my freind is a big ford man and i just love beating him at his own game (my firebird vs his mustang GT, pickup pulling contests, and with his latest threat a ford lightning, i just cant wait to see if chevy makes the ss thunder 6.0 and i can make a simple engine modification and really piss him off! good luck with your trucks and remember good servicing is the key to reliability.
  • vatormanvatorman Member Posts: 3
    I own a 3/4 ton chevy. Not that I didn't test drive the other two. I chose Chevy because of past experience (1991 1/2 ton) and it seemed that chevy actually designed a truck with me in mind. From the Autotrac system, Haul/tow switch, to the trailer mirrors. The 6.0 is a dream to tow with. I tow a 28ft. 5th wheel. The only complaint that I truly have is the gas mileage. But then again, if that was what I needed, I definetely would not have gotten the 3/4. Ford's rear seat is uncomfortable and the 4x4's overall height requires that you flip the axles on a 5th wheel tow vehicle. Dodge didn't even come close.
  • msb19981998msb19981998 Member Posts: 15
    I simply must know... Who sells more... Gm (that's chevys and gmcs) vs. Ford? I have heard the "Best selling Truck in Texas... in US... etc. for too long. I would like someone to post the data on this board. Any data with link to website preferred.

    As for myself, I own a Chevy 99 1/2 ton extended Z71 manual 4x4 w/5.3 3.73 and love it. 3300 miles only, so the jury is still out, but man! What a truck! Two previous trucks had a 4.3 and 350 in 'em and I do have to give the nod to the 5.3, although the 350 was unbeatable at the time and the 4.3 was an incredibly tough and ecomomical engine. I am still a Chevy man (GMC's looks... yuck!)when it comes to 1/2 tons and 3/4 tons. But my dad's F350 crewcab 4x4 with powerstroke is one great truck. At $38K it better be!

    Can someone PLEASE post those numbers?

    Thanks,

    Matthew VanHoose
  • bertfbertf Member Posts: 1
    co-own a tranny shop, and have been a selling
    lot for two years now. Lots of trashing Ford
    here and used to do it myself. I was a die-hard Chevy guy. We have owned and plowed snow with all
    makes of recent year trucks. I can tell you that
    GM DOES NOT have the best transmission. Dodge
    has had the most tran problems in past ten years.
    I never liked Fords but they did raise the bar
    with their 97 redesign. The Frames and suspensions
    on the light and heavy models are a slight bit better than the other two. The triton engines are
    probably the best thing ford ever did. If you look
    at what chevy did, well they simply tried to copy
    the Ford. I would probably buy either, I drive both and had a new silverado with the small new
    v8, it was perfect, but it offered no power advantage over the Ford 4.6. I think people
    trashing the 4.6 is a lot of crap, it tows
    the same as the chevy with same
    axles ratios. Myself and one of my employees actually
    thought the small ford v8 was a little better
    than the small chevy. I would buy either Ford or
    Chevy for all around driving, shy away from Dodge
    due to quality issues. If you are working a light
    or heavy truck ALWAYS due the Ford. Fords e10
    tranny has actually seemed to be the least trouble
    out of all three makes.
  • marco2coolmarco2cool Member Posts: 2
    Dont have any data for you but I did work for GM. Ford does sell more trucks in the US than any other brand. Mostly because of rental companies, regardless they sell more.
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    I am glad that you have not had problems with the Fords. However, there have been uncountable problems with the new Ford tranny's. Just take a peek at www.f150online.com under transmissions. All the die hard Ford fans are saying the best mix of engine and transmission would be the Ford engine and GM transmission! Ford went to a weaker tranny in 97. The F150's, Expeditions, and Explorers (light duty vehicles) transmissions are a nightmare and are constantly having to be replaced well before the factory warranty is even up.

    I won't bash Fords here. I have had some people highly offended by my posts. In this case however, this is not just my opinion. The list of transmission problems are a mile long. I had tranny AND transfer case problems in the 98 Ford I owned.

    The frames on the new GM trucks are unlike any frame ever made. Its GM's own technology. I don't know where you say GM copied Ford on ANYTHING. The technology in the GM trucks is lightyears ahead of Ford.

    It sounds as if your preference is Ford and thats ok, but if you look at the tsb's, recalls, service bulletins, and also look at some of the Ford user web sites, you will see that your info on the Ford transmissions is far from reality.

    Take care.
  • rhinncrhinnc Member Posts: 66
    I used to own one of these, great truck. Owners manual says to change transmission fluid/filter at 30K. While I pulled a boat some, I did do quite a bit of driving on sand at the beach. At about 37K my tranny started slipping. I had the tranny oil and filter changed and the slipping went away. If I had to do it over, I think I would have had the fluid changed at 20-25K. Probably would not have had the slipping problem.

    I now own a 99 Z71 Silverado, sorta miss the very smooth shifting of my ford's tranny. But otherwise I am satisfied, even thoug I have had more problems with my chevy than the ford. Guess this was to be expected with a first year vehicle. But then, so was my 97 F150 I bought in Feb of 96, and other than the tranny problem, it only saw the dealer 2 times. One to reset the computer for a misfire(only did it once) and I had a rotor replaced at 29K. Who knows what I will get next time, maybe ford, maybe chevy. Not a real dedicated GM or Ford person.
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    Where the GMC 3/4 ton 6.0L killed the Ford F250 Super Duty V10. Beat it in acceleration, power unloaded AND LOADED, comfort, etc., etc. Wait till the new GM HD's come out - bye, bye ford....
  • xl_1228xl_1228 Member Posts: 29
    Hey Zbad...I visit www.f150online.com also, and there are maybe 2 or 3 people there that think a Ford engine and a GM tranny are the best mix. And one of them is BassCat, who happens to own a Silverado.

    Ford actually strengthened their tranny for 97...They didn't weaken it. The 4R70W is basically a stronger version of the AOD-E, and it is a good transmission.
  • xl_1228xl_1228 Member Posts: 29
    Actually, it wasn't BassCat that said a Ford transmission and GM tranny was the best mix, it was somebody else.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    ZBADD,
    Where did you hear that? That would be impressive but I imagine that Ford is already beefing up it's line next year. 8.1? That would be incredible. I may join your flock if it proves to be true.
  • dean28dean28 Member Posts: 6
    I too would like to know more about this 8.1 as well! 500hp WOW!!!!
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    For the sake of the Ford owners, I hope Ford does come out with more choices for them, especially for the heavy duties. Not everyone, including myself, wants or needs a diesel.

    It would behoove Ford to accommodate the gas engine buyers better in the future. On the flip side, not everyone wants a gas powered engine as I do, so it would behoove GM to follow through with their promise of a better diesel.

    Regardless of what I have posted in heated debates, I truly do believe that there is no definitive method that anyone can use to determine which truck is "best". Its all about preference and choices. That being said though, I think that Ford needs to make more viable choices available. Someone said that they are working on a better gas engine line for the heavier trucks. Some if not most of my discontent for Fords would disappear if Ford started listening to the customer in deciding what designs to approve and how they build their trucks. The reason I like my Chevy above all others, at least for these models, is that I feel that GM has done an excellent job of listening to what the customer wants in deciding what to implement in their trucks. Thus, why GMs' truck body styles, etc. did not change for years. Loyal GM owners like/liked this style and many still do over the newer style. GM owners asked for more powertrain and suspension choices and they got that too.

    I am starting to rethink about the bashing I have done on Fords. I did get screwed by Ford's lack of customer service (in my circumstance), but I know that Ford overall is not a bad truck. All makes have their problems and pocket of lemon vehicles to deal with. One can compare recalls and tsb's and argue all day about facts of this study or that, but that still boils down to mostly preferences and biased authors,etc.

    Having been a pretty much loyal Ford owner for as many years as I was, it was difficult for me to break that paradigm and buy a new GM truck. However, at least for now, I am very happy I did, mostly again because of preference. I just think that GM has done a better job of delivering what the GM customer wants in a truck more than Ford has. Now, I have had a couple of minor problems with my Silverado. I don't think ANY of them are flawless designs and will never have problems. And, my selling dealer hasn't been the best at customer service, not much different than my Ford experience. I have found a dealer that is providing my good customer service now, and to me this makes all the difference in the world. If my Silverado had been a lemon, a good dealer willing to help the customer deal with the problems can make all the difference. The two problems I have had with my Silverado are very minor in comparison to the problems I had with the Ford, but I do realize that the particular Ford I had last could have just been a lemon. However, I could not find a Ford dealer within 100 miles that would help me with all the problems, not even the Ford Zone Rep would get involved to help. The Zone Rep basically said I was at the mercy of the dealer handling the problems and nothing more would be done to intervene. I did not feel like battling through months of arbitration to go higher with it. I cut my losses and tried the Chevy. So far it has been a good move, "for me".

    About the 8.1l. I too am excited about it. However, I don't know that I will ever buy one of these trucks new. I don't pay that kind of money for a truck that I would only buy to work hard, getting scratches and such. If I owned a business like yourself where it would be a business write off, it would make sense to do it, but I don't have that ability. Therefore, the "work" trucks I buy are used, like my 1 ton 454. It has been a great truck, but at somewhere around 225,000 miles, it is nearing replacement so I will most likely be either replacing the engine in that truck or buying another used 454 or similar. When the 8.1l is about 5 or 6 years old, I will definitely consider it. By then, we will all know what problems it may have to know what kind of truck it will be for the money.

    Thanks for your post Rocles. It was a nice change to converse with you without heated arguments.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    The only publication I saw stating the 8.1 liter engine said that it was going in the medium duty truck lines (2 ton and up).

    thats a lot of motor for a one ton. i'd be anxious to see what kind of fuel mileage GM powertrain engineers could pull out of that displacement. I would really suspect a v10 based on the 6.0 or 5.3 block design, which would put displacement in the 6.8 to 7.6 range.
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582
    The new generation Vortec 8100
    will be replacing the 454 and be in the 3/4 + 1 ton pickups
    not sure of 500 hp more like 375hp 450lbs torque
  • BrutusBrutus Member Posts: 1,113
    This is my first time in this topic. Interesting guy, this zbad. A bit tempermental, thought. Start an argument and then blame everyone else.

    500 hp is a bit ridiculous for a pickup truck. Dave40s figures sound realistic and impressive for a gas engine. I believe the Dodge V-10 is at about 300hp with 450 lb-fts of torque and the 2000 Ford V-10 is at 310 and 425. The limiting factor on the size of the engine is matching it to a tranny that can handle the torque. Since the diesel engines of the Ford and Dodge are both at, or flirting with the 500 lb-ft torque range, the gas engines still have some room to make increases. Of course, my guess is that there eventually has to be a trade off in mpg that makes the extra power not worth it.

    As for GMs HD line and "bye, bye Ford", let's get real. All I can say is that it is about time. The Chevy diesel has been a joke for over 10 years and it's cost them a lot of market share in the heavy duty and RV markets. I've heard that the new Isuzu diesel (the Duramax I believe) is suppose to be joined with an Allison tranny and put out about 510 lb-ft of torque. It sounds like Chevy is finally deciding to join the party.

    Of course, the heavy duty line won't be worth squat if Chevy can't increase their tow ratings. Based on the 1999 Tow Ratings, the highest rating of 12,500 pounds (5th wheel) for Chevy is with the 7.4L C3500 5th wheel package with 4.56 axle ratio. Heck, you put a 4.56 axle ratio on a Ford, and you'd be driving a F-450 with close to a 20,000 pound tow rating. The highest Chevy tow rating with an axle ratio of 4.10 or less is 11,000 pounds with the 6.5L diesel or 10,500 with the 7.4L. The Ford and Dodge ratings are both in excess of 13,000 pounds with either the gas or diesel engines.

    When it comes to towing a light boat or ATV, Chevy will do fine. But when it comes to heavy duty work and towing, they are not even in the ballpark. Will the new line make them more competitive? Hopefully. Will they surpass Ford in the heavy duty truck line, not in this lifetime.

    The Ford F-series has been the best selling truck for 18 years. However, the combo of GMC and Chevy trucks outsold the F-Series until about two years or so ago (when they introduced that new F-150 that zbad hates so much). As far as better resale values, I agree with Rocles that it has to do with what people buy their trucks to do. Clearly, the heavy duty and RV markets are dominated by Ford, so the ford trucks are being used and abused more to do what trucks are suppose to do.

    If I'm not mistaken, someone earlier said that the 6.0L beat the Ford V-10. I sure hope a 6.0L in a truck that weighs less than 5,000 pounds can beat a V-10 in a truck that weighs close to 7,000 pounds. Strap a 13,000+ 5th wheel to that Chevy or put a 4,000 pound slide-in camper in the bed and let's have that race. Oops! There isn't a Chevy that can haul those loads.

    Although horsepower and torque are important factors, there is more to a truck than those figures alone. How do they distribute that power? How does the rest of the truck handle that power? How does the truck hold up if it is constantly being worked under the max GVWR or GCWR. Considering Fords dominance in the RV hauler market and Chevys almost non-existence in that market, I think it speaks for itself.

    Just so there is no doubt, I am a Ford fan and likely will be until they sell me a truck that isn't any good or the competition comes out with something that is clearly heads and tails above what Ford is offering. My last truck was a 92 F-250HD 4x4 that I sold with 86,000 miles on it to buy a bigger truck. My current truck is a 99 F-350SD Supercab Lariat dually 4x4 V-10 with 4.30 axle ratio. I carry a 3,900 pound Bigfoot slide-in truck camper. Loaded for a trip, my rig tips the scales around 12,000 pounds including passengers, gas, gear, propane and water in the holding tanks. I've put over 23,000 miles on the truck since I bought it one year ago. About 10,000 of those miles have been with the camper on, including a 5,000 mile trek from Dallas to Anchorage Alaska in January in extreme winter conditions (a low of -38 in the Yukon Territory), and regular weekend trips of 250-600 miles roundtrip through the mountain passes up here in Alaska the past few months. Real world experience. Real world performance. That's why Ford sells more trucks.

    Come on Chevy. Let's play catchup! Is that 4 door Supercab finally coming out or are they waiting until they resolve the squeaking problem in the 3rd door.
  • swobigswobig Member Posts: 634
    weight difference in the trucks was 800 pounds not 2000 and it clearly beat it - no contest. Ford makes a good truck, don't get me wrong, but the V-10 is weak. As far as the 3rd door, they probably missed the boat a little, although there starting to make some now. However, I would much rather have a larger 3 door model than a cramped 4 door model any day. Chevy does play catch up a lot, but this time they have surpassed Ford and Dodge. I just hope they keep it that way - I'm kinda a Chevy fan, but will not hesitate to buy a better product from someone else - currently there not one. Ford does have a strong Diesel and hopefully this new one will catch up and they will start regaining precious market share that they've lost.

    As far a the new 8.1L (502) I heard 315 H.P. and 465 ft. lbs. of torque. 500 does sound outragous, but bring it on!!!

    Bye, bye Ford - well someone's got to stir the pot!! hehehehehehe Take care...........
  • BrutusBrutus Member Posts: 1,113
    The Supercab isn't really meant to carry adult passengers for extended periods. It provides the option of moving people around town on short trips without taking an extra vehicle, but generally it's for kids or storage. My back seat is folded down and used for storage more than it is up. If I was planning on carrying adults or even decent size kids regularly, I'd have opted for the Crew Cab. Ford, by the way, will be introducing a F-150 Crew Cab this year, I believe. They were second on the four door Supercab, but first in the full size four door.

    The 6.0 vs the V-10 still isn't an apples to apples comparison. The torque numbers speak for themselves. The V-10 is designed for towing so the torque is distributed where the most grunt is needed to get the load to where it is going. With my camper on, I'm climbing long 6-7% grades at 70mph and passing cars, trucks and RVs. And I've got the 99, so I'm only rated at 275hp and 410 torque. There certainly is no shortage of power carrying that load. I can also spin my duallys with the auto trans, so it's not like it is a real dog off the line either.

    For the record, the comparable Chevy engine to the V-10 is the 454. If I'm not mistaken, that is the 7.4L. The torque and hp figures are the same or better than the V-10, and some would argue it is a better engine. But like I said, before anyone jumps to conclusions based purely on numbers (which are important), you really need to determine what the drive train was designed to do. A heavy duty truck was not intended to beat another vehicle from light to light, regardless of how many hp or lb-fts of torque it has. The drive-train is designed to distribute the hp and torque in the areas most needed for heavy duty towing and hauling.

    For the record, I actually like Chevys. They made awesome V-8s over the years. I've also got a lot of respect for the Dodge Cummins in the heavy duty area. A lot of RVers like the Dodge Cummins also. However, if you take a cross country trip, you will see a lot more Fords pulling RVs than any other vehicle, hands down.

    Personally, I like the overall quality of the Ford, but I use my truck for heavy duty purposes. As long as the truck will accomplish what you need it to do, I don't really think you can go wrong whether you buy a Ford or a Chevy when it comes to 1/2 ton trucks.
  • lvstanglvstang Member Posts: 149
    Has anyone seen a test where the 454 is pitted against the 6.0l? Just wondering.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Brutus,
    Welcome back! Good points on the overall advantage of Ford's Super Duty line. I've tried in vain to convince people that there is more to a truck than engines that vary by 20hp numbers.


    ZBAD,
    I agree that the 5.4 isn't the greatest for a F-250 but it is suitable for the "base" engine. It's similar to the six cylinder offerings by all three. Where Chevy offers the 6.0 and 7.4--Ford offers the V-10 or a superior diesel engine. Would I like Ford to come out with a bigger gas motor? Of course but it's not like it's absolutely necessary. It would only give Ford another nail to put in the Chevy HD coffin.
    Remember one thing about GM: it took them a long time to "listen" to their customers. So long that no one considers their diesels or HD truck lines like myself. I'm actually thrilled to see that they finally blew some life back into their HD line--it's about time! I think it's unfair to knock Ford when they were continually evolving their Superduties when Chevy sat on their hands for so long.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Okay guys. KC is back with figures--check out post#137 in topic #863. Ford still outsells GM combined.
  • BrutusBrutus Member Posts: 1,113
    The 5.4L just isn't enough power for the Superduty line. These trucks are alot heavier than the F-150 and the F-250 light duty. My truck weighs 7,100 pounds. My 92 F-250 weighed 5,300 with a fiberglass shell on. I had the 351 in that truck and it was more than adequate.

    There isn't a gas engine from any of the Big 3 that can't be boosted to well over 300hp and close to 500 lb-ft of torque with about a $1,000-$2,000 investment (check out www.galebanks.com). I've got more than enough power to pull my 12,000 pound rig through the mountains, so I'm not looking in that direction.

    As far as selection, nobody offers more seletin than the Ford Superduty line. There are 46 different choices of trucks in that line.

    As for the four door issue, like I said, Ford will be the first with a full four door 1/2 ton. No other manufacturer is offering that option in a 1/2 ton, so no other manufacturer will be able to touch that kind of backseat space. I've seen the truck. It looks sharp. Dodge is introducing a full-size four door in the Dakota, so I'm guessing the Ram will soon have. Dodge was first with the quad. Ford quickly followed. This time Ford was first and Dodge isn't wasting any time. No word on Chevy plans for full-size four door 1/2 ton. I suspect they have to build the quad first.

    Ford is also introducing an Explorer that will have an exterior bed where the rear cargo area is. There seems to be a demand for this type of vehicle, which is a little surprising to me. I've also heard that Navistar is working on smaller diesels for the SUVs, such as teh Explorer. I think they may also be planning to have a diesel option for the F-150, but I'm not sure of that.

    Ford has always been on the cutting edge when it comes to leading the truck market and building what the people want. That's not to say that they are always first, but when it comes to trucks, they are first more often than not. That's why they sell more pickups.

    Chevy has been reactionary for the recent past. How long to make a competitive diesel? How long to make a four door quad? What is on the drawing board that is different than what is currently be offered or is already in production by the other manufacturers. When was the last time Chevy introduced totally new pickup concept? And let's not mention an engine with a few more horses or a few more lb-ft of torque. Examples of significant changes would be the intro of the turbocharged diesel or a significant increase in torque that far exceeded the competition, or structural changes that increased GVWR and GCWR much higher than the competition, or design changes like the quad cab or the crew cab or even small stuff like being the first to offer interior car-like amenities such as leather interior.

    Whether or not those are options of our preferences, they were demanded by the market. The good news is that when Chevy does copy, they do a very good job and usually put a high quality product. But they've definitely been reactionary.

    I guess I am a little long winded at times, but I've got about 300 posts to catch up with. I agree that we should have a cordial discussion about the issues and leave any personal comments about other posters out. The people who post in this Townhall have always been very cordial (I've been posting since late 1997), with very few exceptions. This particular thread appears to have wandered from that courtesy behavior enough to have it shut down for a week. I've never seen that before. I wil also say that comments calling one of the competitors engine or trucks crap is alot different than explaining the deficiencies and letting others rebut. Let's face it, none of the Big 3 are making crappy pickups.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Unless I'm reading them wrong, GM (Chev+GMC) while behind for the year, has surged ahead in the most recent month, Sept. Also August. Fastest selling truck in America? Yup.
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    Ok. I still think that more of what you say is preference. I agree that the light duty trucks are about the same in torque and hp as GM's. The reliability by any known facts are about the same, GM being ahead by a small margin. However, GM still has way more technology built in to their trucks in my opininon. Ford implemented a so-called major model change in 97. All they changed was the engines and the looks. They still have the same old technology, i.e, no advancements in computer, no advancements in 4X4, no advancements in the frames. Ford still has the same frame technology.

    When GM redesigned, they redesigned the "whole truck". The frame, the computer controls, the 4X4, the suspensions. Ford just put a car engine in their trucks and saved face by being able to pull the torque and hp out of it that is "adequate" for the average truck buyer. Little do Ford owners know, but they did this to provide an engine that was less cost to them, not a significant benefit to the consumer.

    Take a look at the GM Vortec engines. The technology built into them far exceeds what Ford can offer. If it were not for emissions, GM could pull far more torque and hp out their engines than what Ford has to play with. Ford's engines can't pull the power that a GM engine can deliver. I am not talking stock in this case. The pushrod engine has far more capabilities than a ohc. Again, I am not qualified to deliver the facts, but history of the two shows this. Why do you think that Ford has had trouble getting the claimed power out of the cobra mustangs? How many OHC engines are used in racing today?

    I still think that GM has offered more choices, not only in engines but suspension and accessory options as well.

    I realize that GM has had a bad diesel, but I don't even look at the diesels when comparing the two makes as the diesel is not targeted to the consumer as much. The diesels are more of a commercial or industrial market. I am comparing the gas engine line in primarily the light duty to 1 ton capacities. In this area, the GM trucks clearly dominate the Ford.

    Ok, so you have a V10, but the 6.0l "V8" outperforms it with less fuel. Now there are more reasons I feel the GM truck is better, but again more "preferences". How can you say that GM has been reactive when Ford still doesn't have the technology that GM is using, i.e., the onboard diagnostics, autotrac 4X4, 4 suspension options vise Ford's 2, a more user friendly and much larger interior cab. All I hear about GM's interior is "cheap plastics" and no fourth door. The Ford uses the same cheap plastics. It just looks different. Again, possibly preferences here???

    In my opinion, it's clear that the line of trucks I refer to, i.e, the 1/2 tons to 1 tons in the gas engine line, the GM trucks are far superior in performance and value. We are never going to agree, but thats ok. Keep buying the Fords. You buying the Ford keeps the pricing of the GM trucks down to a competitive price in spite of GM's superiority to the other makes. Us GM owners like this.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    I think you are being a bit unfair on the Fords, but respect your right to an opinion. (OHC's BTW are widely used in racing top of the sport, F1, Cart, IRL, motorcycles.)

    My dissatisfaction with the Ford gas engine is in concept, not execution. There's no doubt Ford gets great power at all speeds, especially the lower rpms. But it could have been great if they finished the top end with 4 valves per cylinder. As it is, putting the cam on top, while not hurting anything, takes more space on the engine, sits up high, hinders serviceability.
  • lvstanglvstang Member Posts: 149
    Z, while your comments are appreciated in a forum such as this and it seems you do some research for your statements please understand there is NO comparison in the technology of a pushrod motor as compared to a OHC design. While Ford may not use the OHC to its full potential, the lack of pushrod holes and decreased friction alone make it a far superior design. Much less restriction in port design and configuration. The Cobra problem has little to do with engine design and more with recalibration of the electronics. That's why the '97 and '98 were actually faster than the '99. Please take note of the 5.4 Navigator motor which makes like power as the 6.0l GM. I think it fair to say Ford may not use its design to its full potential or they are waiting to upgrade every year so as to sell more vehicles but you can't say the design itself is inferior. Basically NASCAR and local stock car tracks are the only racing venues left who use push rod motors. Even the top off road teams, meaning Toyota and Ford,use their OHC motors now.
    As per Quads comments the only real negatives are the complexity of the design. If you research the high end automotive world the Corvette and Viper are the only supercars left using pushrods.
    Take it easy
  • BrutusBrutus Member Posts: 1,113
    Just so there is no doubt (as I'm sure there shouldn't be), I have a Ford bias. I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to hearing about the competitors and acknowledging their positive points. At the same time, I'd be lying if I said that it is likely I will ever buy one.

    The RV hauler market is huge in the 3/4 and 1 ton market. The diesels are big sellers to this crowd. The diesels are definitely not just for commercial use. The towing/RV market is a major sector of pickup truck owners. That's why the GVWRs, tow rating and the GCWRs are important. Ford has the highest tow rating, with Dodge close behind. Chevy may have the power train to tow, but they don't have tow ratings anywhere in the ballpark. They may have that issue addressed with the introduction of the new HD line that is due out soon.

    First snow of the year today here in Anchorage. It's not likely to stick. Still, I don't remember it snowing this early last year.....when I was in Dallas.....or the year before when I was in Southern CA. It's just about time to dust off that ESOF knob on the dash.
  • zbad71zbad71 Member Posts: 226
    I will give you that the OHC design is not a terrible concept in itself. As much as I hate to admit it, GM is also contemplating a OHC design in the future. However, I have always known it to be difficult to get the power out of an OHC engine where its useful for a truck's purpose.

    Quadrunner hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the 4 valves per cylinder. I know that OHC engines have some pluses, such as the very thing I think is one minus, the pushrods. I know that pushrods are susceptible to bending and such under high torque conditions and the OHC design does not incur this risk. However, my opinion has been that the OHC design does not deliver the low end torque without sacrificing the mid to upper end torque. The Ford I had was fine in the low end. Not any more than the Silverado though. Where the Ford sure didn't cut the mustard, is in the mid to high end torque, say when towing on the highway. I would cuss a storm everytime I towed a 4k lbs boat with that Ford. I had to literally stand on the accelerator to get anything out of it at all. No highway torque at all. When it did kick down, it dropped two gears, not one, and boy it would wind up so high, I thought for sure it would blow. I just knew I could not keep putting the poor thing through that for very long without overstressing the engine. I may very well have been the gearing of the transmission. I can't say for sure. It just didn't compare to the tow ability the Silverado has. Sure, I give Ford tons of credit for making the low end torque from a OHC design. By design, the OHC engine does not usually have much low end torque. It is normally a higher revving engine with torque in the mid to upper range. This may be why the racing world is moving to a OHC design. I was not aware that so many of them were. In my opinion, the only true racing "IS" Nascar and Nascar engines are pushrod engines. Again, just my opinion. Do the top fuelers, stock cars and, funny cars have OHC design?? I can't see 1/4 mile cars being OHC design, but I am surprised every day.

    Again, I don't mean to bash anyone or Fords, but my driving and towing experience with the Silverado has been much more pleasant than with the Ford. I like all the technology built into the cabin accessories and all the options I have with it too.

    I guess if the Ford works better for you, who am I to slam it for your sake?

    Good luck.
This discussion has been closed.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles