1960's Pontiacs

fintail · January 2012

Your Celebrity was a coupe, right? Those are pretty uncommon anymore. When I was a kid, I thought a black Eurosport wagon wasn't bad looking...been ages since I've seen one. I did see a pre-89 Pontiac 6000 the other day. I remember my 5th grade teacher had a Pontiac 6000 coupe.

I bet resale on the final year Citations was pretty bad, it would have looked pretty old in just a couple years.

uplanderguy · January 2012

My Eurosport was a two-door, although in hindsight it looked like a block of wood! It was a dark plum color, can't think of what GM called it, but my nephew called it 'purple'! It was monotone..a lot of them were silver underneath the side molding, which I didn't like. It was the only car I ordered. I wanted a cheaper 6000-STE so bought the 2.8 MFI V6, full gauges, and was forced to order the four-speed automatic which a friend's Dad, a GM Service Manager, told me to avoid, and I did have no 3rd or 4th gears at 37K miles but GM replaced for $100 as a goodwill gesture (powertrain warranty was 24K miles). The car had the most livable back seat of any two-door I'd owned, I think--well, other than the '77 Impala coupe my folks gave me when I graduated college in '80.

When I ordered the car, the salesman told me the aluminum wheels (same style as Citation X-11) were on backorder. I said 'if they're not on the car, I'm not buying it.'. He made the mistake of telling me he got a status update on ordered units every Monday a.m. He also told me 'six to eight weeks'. It came in the twelfth week. When I picked it up, it didn't have the floor mats that I ordered and were on the window sticker. He acted like I was bothering him to ask! It was from Tim Timmers in Norcross, GA. Don't know if they're still there or not.

berri · January 2012

I once ordered a 71 Plymouth Sebring that also came different than its window sticker, but the dealer made it good without hassle when I pointed it out. Unfortunately, I should have walked away because it turned out to be a nice looking POC. Thankfully, I don't think that happens with today's technology and much smaller options list.

fintail · January 2012

To me, a Citation hatch looks like a football from the beltline up, so pick your poison :shades:

How did that Celebrity hold up? Unrelated, I know, but my dad had a S-10 Blazer of the same year, and it was pretty junky. An aunt had an 86 Celebrity, she was admittedly neglectful when it came to maintenance, but it was looking more than the worse for wear by the early 90s.

Those "glass house" Impala/Caprice coupes were cool in their own way, unique styling trait anyway.

Shame about that dealer...I think the internet has put an end to some of the ineptitude, now if you are wronged you can tell the world in just a few minutes. Cool you had a special order though, I don't remember anyone in my family doing that - always off the lot for us.

uplanderguy · January 2012

The trans is the only thing I remember going on the Eurosport. It had 60K miles when I traded it for an '89 Beretta GT. One dumb design element: when the Celebrity was introduced, there wasn't a Eurosport variant with the thick steering wheel. I ordered mine without a tilt wheel. From where I sat (I'm only 5'8"), the top half of the wheel completely obliterated the view of the entire (ribbon) speedometer! Duh!

It did corner very well...had Goodyear Eagles from the factory. I remember driving a friend's '84 Monte Carlo V6 and taking a corner like I would have in the Eurosport. The Monte felt like it was going to roll over!

A couple small things I liked: the optional gauges looked like instruments on a high-end stereo receiver back then...very thin needles...and since I ordered the highest-end factory radio at the time, there was a little emblem on the dash that said "ERS" and underneath it said "Extended Range Sound System".

Mr_Shiftright · January 2012

Here's an interesting Pontiac question in our ANSWERS department. Can any of you help him out?

http://answers.edmunds.com/question-Did-rear-windows-1974-Pontiac-Grandville-rol- l-part-way-146909.aspx

Thanks!

andre1969 · January 2012

I just popped over and left an answer. In short, for 1971-74, the Grand Ville coupe had roll-down windows, but in '75-76 they were stationary.

I thought it was a bit odd that if you got the cheaper Catalina, you got roll down windows, but the more expensive Bonneville and Grand Ville (Bonneville Brougham for '76) were stationary. But, by that time, I think the attitude was starting to become who cares if the back windows roll down? It has air conditioning!

I remember as a kid, I really didn't give a second thought to the stationary rear windows in Mom's '75 LeMans, '80 Malibu, or '86 Monte Carlo coupe, although my Grandparents' '82 Malibu Classic wagon always sticks out in my mind! Nor, did I pay any attention to the fact that they were stationary in my other grandparents' '77 and 81 Granada coupes. Their '75 Dart Swinger was a hardtop, but I don't remember it that well.

Honestly, it wasn't until I bought an old '69 Dart GT hardtop, in 1989 when I was in college, that the memory of roll-down rear windows and true hardtop styling came back to me. Most of my friends, who weren't used to riding in something that old, thought it was pretty cool, too.

uplanderguy · January 2012

The '75 Grand Ville hardtop coupe's rear windows were fixed and did not go down at all. The '74 was the last two-door hardtop Grand Ville where all four windows went down. The '75 Catalina hardtop coupe did have small quarter windows that rolled the whole way down, however.

uplanderguy · January 2012

I remember when Dad and I first glimpsed a black-vinyl-top-over maroon '73 Chevelle Malibu coupe parked way out back of our Chevy dealer, before introduction day. We were both pretty shocked about the lack of rear-roll-down windows. I remember thinking, 'well, if it's OK for the Cadillac Eldorado, it's OK for a Chevelle I guess', some time later.

The '78 Malibu sedans, with rear windows that didn't roll down--that, plus, the 'donut' spare tire--I had a hard time getting over though.

andre1969 · January 2012

The '78 Malibu sedans, with rear windows that didn't roll down--that, plus, the 'donut' spare tire--I had a hard time getting over though.

When did the B and C-bodies go to compact spares? I know my grandmother's '85 LeSabre had a compact, but I guess they switched over sometime between '77 and then? Maybe 1980, when the B/C bodies went through another round of weight reduction?

uplanderguy · January 2012

When did the B and C-bodies go to compact spares? I know my grandmother's '85 LeSabre had a compact, but I guess they switched over sometime between '77 and then? Maybe 1980, when the B/C bodies went through another round of weight reduction?

'80 is probably right, although I don't know for sure. My parents' '77 Impala had a full-size spare tire. Matter of fact, my '93 Caprice Classic had a full-size spare although it was optional at extra cost.

andre1969 · January 2012

I've thought about trying to find a compact spare for my '76 LeMans. The trunk isn't very big, as it is, but worse, where they put the spare tire, part of it ends up occupying the deepest part of the trunk! Whenever I put my beer cooler in there, I have to position it just right, and I put a towel over it to keep it from rubbing on the underside of the trunk.

I guess it might be easier/cheaper to just get a cooler that's not quite as tall. :P

andre1969 · January 2012

backed into a driveway in Linthicum Heights, MD. Couldn't tell the series, as I just saw it from a distance, and only for a split second. Looked like a hardtop coupe, and dark green.

Also spotted, out on Interstate 97, a '76-79 Volare coupe rolling along. Silver with a burgundy landau top, which gave you those oddly shaped, square opera windows. It looked like it was in pretty good shape. No visible rust, paint still fairly shiny, top in good shape.

One thing that really struck me as how odd this car looks, by today's standards. Normally, the 2-door looks better than its 4-door counterpart, but by this timeframe, often it was just the opposite. I thought the same thing with the Ford Granada/Mercury Monarch. The 4-doors have a handsome, somewhat modern look to them, but the coupe just seems more dated, with the opera window cliche.

I think the difference is even greater with the Aspen/Volare, as the coupe rode a 4.7" shorter wheelbase, and was noticeably lower. Meanwhile, the 4-door version might have represented the birth of the trend towards taller, more upright cars that persists to this day. I think this coupe would have also looked a lot better if it didn't have that landau roof.

hpmctorque · January 2012

"I had a new '90 Corsica 4-cyl. 5-speed for 108K miles and 6 1/2 years."

I understand that the Chevy 2.0 4-cylinder was prone to head gasket failure, so you did well. What condition was your Corsica in at 108,000?

hpmctorque · January 2012

"My best friend had a 1980 Chevrolet Citation...He managed to put 195K miles on this car..."

That's impressive! Did your friend's Citation have the Iron Duke 4 or the V6? Either way he beat the odds.

andre1969 · January 2012

I would guess the Iron Duke. I knew someone who had a Skylark or Somerset Regal coupe (can't remember the year now) with the Iron duke and a stick shift, and he and his wife got something like 190-200,000 miles out of it, before getting rid of it. I don't think anything actually failed on it, but they were just getting tired of it.

I've known a few people with Cavalier Z-24's, with the 2.8 V-6, and those things tended to blow a head gasket by 80-90,000 miles, it seemed.

hpmctorque · January 2012

As I think I've mentioned to you, I was the original owner of a '86 Grand Am with the Iron Duke and 5-speed. Contrary to the reputation of '80s domestics, this was a reliable, low maintenance car. It's demise came at 188,000, when the head gasket blew. The head gasket started to leak at about 185,000, but I managed to nurse it along for a while longer.

It was a slam dunk decision to junk the car at that point because just a couple of nights before the engine died the friend of the teen ager who lived across the street backed into my driver's side door.

uplanderguy · January 2012

"I had a new '90 Corsica 4-cyl. 5-speed for 108K miles and 6 1/2 years."

I understand that the Chevy 2.0 4-cylinder was prone to head gasket failure, so you did well. What condition was your Corsica in at 108,000?

Worst thing about it was, the paint was beginning to look a little thin in one place on the car, below the left part of the rear window...maybe a fifty-cent piece size. People besides me wouldn't have even noticed it. But, no paint flaking off at all. A/C still cold. Ran fine. I wanted another car.

I'm pretty sure it was a 2.2 liter four, not 2.0.

Actually, I had '90, '97, '02, and now '08, 2.2 liters. The first three all had well over 100K miles. Never had head gasket issues in any of them.

lemko · January 2012

His car was the 4-cylinder

andre1969 · February 2012

Actually, I had '90, '97, '02, and now '08, 2.2 liters. The first three all had well over 100K miles. Never had head gasket issues in any of them.

I know someone who had a Cavalier, although the year eludes me now. Late 90's, at least. I think it made it to around 120,000 miles, when something went bad in the engine. I think it was the head gasket, but not sure. The car was still driveable, IIRC. I remember the mechanic telling her that it was actually pretty rare for those engines to fail that early on. Usually, the rest of the car would fall apart around the engine. And, since they tended to have bad resale, if they got traded in, they were often wholesaled off or simply junked.

uplanderguy · February 2012

My last one, the '02, looked like new at 112K. It sat out all the time, too, in our NE OH weather. It was sharper IMO than the '97 4-door I had before it. The '02 was dark green metallic--darker/richer than the earlier dark green used in '01 and before--and had the very slight decklid spoiler, 15 inch tires and flat-finish aluminum wheels (filled the wheel openings better), 5-speed and black cloth seats with gray headliner. It was a 5-speed with AC. I liked it. My daughters complained about it being a two-door though.

For cars with the reputation as disposable, I still see a bunch of em, '95 and later, around here being used daily.

potter660 · August 2012

The '69 GTO's automatic/manual transmission ratio of 60 percent automatic/40 percent manual was quite a dramatic change from just three years earlier (1966) when 75 percent had the manual (3 or 4 speed) and 25 percent had the automatic (a 2-speed). The following year (1967) saw those numbers shift the other direction as a larger number had the automatic than the stick for the first time in GTO history. This was due to the introduction of the 3-speed Turbo Hydra-matic for the first time, which replaced the 2-speed.

Similar results were found on Chevy's Chevelle SS-396 as sticks outnumbered Powerglides on this series in 1966 but then yielded to the slushboc when the Turbo Hydra-matic came out in 1967. Still, there were a lot of stick SS-396s (and later 454s) with the Turbo 400 accounting for 60-75 percent of sales in most of those years. This despite the fact the Chevelle with stick had the lousy Muncie shifter rather than the much-better Hurst shifter that came standard on all GTOs and Oldsmobile 4-4-2s with floor-mounted 3- or 4-speed sticks.

Olds 4-4-2s, surprisingly because of Oldsmobile's more upscale image than Pontiac or "Chevy, were also sold with the majority of them sticks with Hurst shifters in 1965 and 1966 (all '64 4-4-2s had the 4-speed) rather than the 2-speed Jetaway automatic (similar to the GTO's 2-speed). In 1967, when the 4-4-2 got the Turbo Hydra-matic as the shiftless option, automatics outnumbered sticks in this series by an even wider margin than in GTOs or SS-396s.

Corvettes for years had the greatest majority built with the 4-speed manual, while the 2-speed Powerglide and the standard 3-speed manual being the minority - mainly because the Corvette was a sports car and the fact the PG was only offered with the base engine and none of the optional mills. In 1968 when the 3-speed Turbo Hydra-matic replaced the PG and made available with almost all engines, including the big block 427s - the ratio of manual/automatic Vettes went to about 60/40 and then 50/50 for 1969-70 before the automatic began dominating sales in later years.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2012

Automatics make sense for the Corvette because the average age of the buyer is something like 58! :surprise:

potter660 · August 2012

Quite a change from the good 'ole days. Before the late 1960s, the idea of a sports car with an automatic transmission was considered to be "ridiculous" by many enthusiasts - most of the foreign sports cars came only with manual transmissions, and MG never offered an automatic in its models though Triumph caved in by adding an optional slushbox to the '76 TR-7. The '68 Mako Shark Vette had a wider transmission tunnel than the Sting Ray to permit the availability of the Turbo Hydra-matic 400, which did crowd into interior space (a bit more cramped than the Sting Ray). By then, the Corvette was placing more and more emphasis on luxury than all-out sport so the automatic did make sense and most were now sold with air conditioning, power windows and many had leather seats, too.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2012

How true. I do think, though, that you could get an automatic with the MGC, the rather poorly-received 6 cylinder version of the MGB.

Let's face it---for most folks, driving a full size Pontiac in the 60s or 70s as a 4-speed was a chore. The purists loved it but for most people, rowing that truck-like gearbox on a car was wide and high as the Queen Mary couldn't have been much fun day after day in traffic.

1960's Pontiacs

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