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Ford Escape Hybrid

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Comments

  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I see your point, but the Escape Hybrid isn't just a whole car developed around a powertrain (as the Prius, EV1, Insight were/are). All it is, is a simple production vehicle just like the rest of them, BUT will have a different drivetrain items.

    Same will occur with the Futura... it'll be a regular sedan finished in a regular way, but have this same powertrain in it. Integrating a powetrain inside a specific vehicle doesn't require it to skimp out on numerous other issues, for the sake of efficiency.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Won't be called Futura. Just read Pep Boys owns the mark as Ford didn't renew the trademark.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    We know this, we just continue using the name till Ford names it, since I'm personally tired of typing out "the midsize sedan formally named Futura".
  • bvabva Member Posts: 4
    Where are you all getting some of these price estimates? Everything I've ever read about hybrids and production costs indicates a $3-4K cost increase. Granted dealers may initially try to gouge people (remember the PT Cruiser) but with several new hybrids coming to market that won't last long as the novelty will have worn off. If you have seen internal pricing estimates from Ford (not the dealers) that estimate $35-45K please let us know where?
  • xbritxbrit Member Posts: 7
    I'm glad you found a good deal. Did they tell you how long it would take to get your hybrid? I'm guessing you'd keep slipping and sliding down the queue, because the dealership wouldn't have any incentive to work very hard on getting your car for you.

    Point of comparison, my nearest big Ford dealer is marking up ALL their non-hybrid Escapes by $2000 over MSRP. Both 2003 and 2004 models. So I think you were extremely lucky.
  • xbritxbrit Member Posts: 7
    <<Where are you all getting some of these price estimates? Everything I've ever read about hybrids and production costs indicates a $3-4K cost increase.>>

    My local Ford dealer is marking up their non-hybrid escapes (both the 2004 and 2005 models) by $2,000 over MSRP. So take the MSRP of the Escape V6, add $4,000 Ford markup for the hybrid technology, plus another $4,000 dealer markup, and assume another $1,500 (?) for the GPS navigation system/hybrid status display/audiophile stereo system, because I'm betting they won't make a single vehicle without this "option".

    I first realized that gouging was going to occur when I saw that bundle... compulsory premium-priced audio if you want the little LCD screen. Blatant price-stuffing.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I can't understand why someone would pay a premium over MSRP to get an SUV that will get marginally better fuel economy than if the car had a basic 4 cylinder engine. The payback (if there is any) will be a LONG time. Unfortunately there is NO logic to be found. Look at what some people are paying for the Prius. To pay 5000 over sticker is insane as well. I guess there are very irrational people out there.
  • xbritxbrit Member Posts: 7
    Rationality isn't determined only by a pocketbook analysis.

    Many people (including me) feel strongly that the USA's huge consumption of the world's oil is morally and practically wrong. When it starts to run out (i.e. world output actually declines, say in another 3-5 years), the consequences will be quite unpleasant. In addition, notice the yellow haze in the air? And the huge increase in asthma cases? Hybrids are an excellent practical way to reduce my personal contribution to all these problems. They also make a statement... i.e. they send a message to others and raise public consciousness.

    However, given that the hybrid I want (Ford Escape) is about a 12-month wait and will end up close to $10,000 higher than a non-hybrid after everybody has finished price-gouging, I have to admit that even my pocketbook tolerance is being exceeded. Most likely I'll just keep driving my old car for another year or two.
  • bvabva Member Posts: 4
    From a pure budget standpoint it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay the markup for a hybrid. But if you've got the money and you think it's important to support this kind of technology, then why not? I'm not willing to say our love of big vehicles with big engines is morally wrong. We happen to be very fond of the concept of "free will", but we could be more socially responsible.

    Enough politics though. I honestly don't see the the markup being that high in most areas. If where you live the dealer is marking up regular Escapes, then you must live where everything is marked up. There was a review done by the Detroit Free Press that reitterated the expectation of a high $20K sticker price. Once the Lexus and Toyota hybrids come out, there's no way Ford dealers will be able to mark up the Escapes.
  • carguydccarguydc Member Posts: 46
    In the DC area you can drive a Hybrid vehicle in the HOV (high occupancy vehicle) lanes without needing either two or three total people in the vehicle. To some people that's worth several thousand dollars on its own, even before factoring in reduced fuel consumption savings.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-10-diesel-vs-hybrid_x- .htm
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Great real world article>. The Truth hurts!
  • maxx4memaxx4me Member Posts: 1,340
    yep, in the end, that's exactly what has scared me away from the Escape hybrid. I doubt I would match the EPA's city stats.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    However, the initial test with the Hybrid Escape by auto editors ( who do not generally drive for the best mileage) obtained 38 mpg. I think the Ford Escape Hybrid will come much closer than the Prius toward obtaining EPA mileage numbers. Because of the way the Prius works with the HSD system it favors stop-N-Go and speed in the 35-50 mph range. The EPA test is archaic now as speed limits have increased and driving habits have changed becuase it only has an average speed of testing of 48 miles per hour. This rally favors the Prius and other implementations of the HSD Toyota system . The Lexus RX400h hybrid is rated at 36/31 and it will probably be more like 25 mpg, if that, Lexus SUV drivers are pretty agressive. The mild hybrids which require the ICE to run all the time and only use the Hybrid battery as a power assist are achiving much closer to thier EPA estimates.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    What are you referring to?

    Based on the article, the reporter didn't measure properly. Being unaware of the bladder in the tank meant he was able to unknowingly overfill. That skewed the results.

    Owners report the displayed value in Prius being 1.5 to 2 MPG optimistic on the average. That meant he actually got around 49 MPG.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I think the Ford Escape Hybrid will come much closer than the Prius toward obtaining EPA mileage numbers. Because of the way the Prius works with the HSD system it favors stop-N-Go and speed in the 35-50 mph range.

    Explain why.

    What detail to you have to support your claim?

    The two designs are quite similar.

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    See answer in "Hybrid in the News" thread
    <brk>
    midnightcowboy "Hybrids in the News" Jun 11, 2004 3:44pm
  • bvabva Member Posts: 4
    Hybrid technology benefits those who do mostly city driving. In the city the gas engine shuts down and the electric motor does most of the work. On the highway the gas engine does most of the work. So in a cross country road trip it's not too suprising the diesel did better than the hybrid. Fact is both are better alternatives to the traditional gas engines when it comes to gas mileage. But whether you do more highway driving or more city driving may determine which is better for you. I'm not 100% sure about this, but one thing to consider with the diesel engines is that they don't burn as clean as regular gas engines, more emissions. So if mileage and emission output are your two major factors then hybrid may win out.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually Ford is licensing 20 patents for Toyota and developed their own Hybrid system. I guess in a way that is similar. Reread, when auto magazine editors drocve the Hybrid cross country they got 38 miles per gallon. They do not drive easy. When similar auto editors drove the Prius they got around 42 mpg. The Prius is rate at 60/51 and the Escape is rated at 35-40 mpg in city and is getting 38. Prius is rated at 60 and is getting 42. Some say this isn't Toyota's fault, it is the EPA testing. It just ssems that Ford is being more straght-forward and realistic.

    Enough of doing research for you on the Ford Escape. Look up the information next time yourself.

    YMMV,
    MidCow
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Even if a hybrid does not meet the EPA estimates they still offer outstanding mileage. EPA testing is the problem, not the hybrids.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Moparbad:

    ___The item of note is financial payback period if there is one. Most use EPA estimates to compare one vehicle vs. another in terms of fuel cost savings over a given amount of miles driven over any number of years. Since the real world mileage of the Prius II appears to be ~ 45 mpg, that is the number one should be comparing, not 55. Now what about the real world fuel economy of a non-Hybrid? I sure would like to see Car and Driver or Motor Trend perform their bumper to bumper run of the Prius II, HCH, and Insight against a Malibu MAXX, Accord, Camry, Civic, Corolla, and Focus … Then you would really have some numbers to chew on. Personally, I can see a 10 - 15% shortfall against EPA estimates in the std. SI ICE&#146;s and with that, compare up aginst the larger shortfall of the Hybrid&#146;s.

    ___Fortunately, we have all seen the Escape Hybrid&#146;s real world run in Manhattan with multiple non-Hybrid drivers taking turns to run her dry. 38 mpg was achieved in the real world in some of the worst city traffic one could find on the planet. I wonder if a Prius II would achieve its ballyhooed 60 mpg in the same?

    ___As I have felt all along, a new hybrid purchase on fuel cost savings alone is ill-conceived at best.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • maxx4memaxx4me Member Posts: 1,340
    midnight: you may be right about the escape's mileage, and I very much hope you are, for all of our sakes. But since I have to make a decision real soon, I'll let you find out if you are right. I simply don't have the finances to take a chance on a vehicle which may or may not achieve 40 mpgs, and which may or may not become obsolete after the 8 year warranty runs out on the battery. I'll simply hope that hydrogen will replace batteries within the next 10 years, buy one then, and hope that I can help put the oil industry out of business once and for all. Go Hydrogen!!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    That link didn't have any technical info whatsoever.

    Once again, please explain this quote "I think the Ford Escape Hybrid will come much closer than the Prius toward obtaining EPA mileage numbers."

    What design difference are you claiming?

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I'll simply hope that hydrogen will replace batteries within the next 10 years and hope that it puts the oil industry out of business. Go Hydrogen!!

    Read the fine print. The current plans are to create the hydrogen using coal & oil.

    Do you believe we will suddenly embrace nuclear fission/fusion or have a dramatic increase in wind farms?

    The electricity needed to seperate hydrogen from water has to come from somewhere.

    JOHN
  • maxx4memaxx4me Member Posts: 1,340
    hmmm, ever heard of something called the sun??
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > hmmm, ever heard of something called the sun??

    Forcing me to deduce what you mean (since you answered with a question, rather than directly), you believe that solar will somehow provide the bulk of the electricity needed to create the hydrogen.

    Hmmm. How exactly is that going to happen? And where? Solar is a highly evasive technology. It requires large amounts of land and clear surface area. The new wind-farms don't though. The towers are so huge that they don't interfere with stuff below at all. There is just a pole protruding from the ground here and there, yet even that has issues. How solar could be accepted is rather a mystery... especially it areas where sunlight is limited and it snows routinely, like the entire northern third of the US!

    JOHN
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Check out my reply on Hybrid vs Diesel.

    usbseawolf2000 "Hybrid vs Diesel" Jun 11, 2004 9:48pm

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Hybrid technology benefits those who do mostly city driving. In the city the gas engine shuts down and the electric motor does most of the work. On the highway the gas engine does most of the work. So in a cross country road trip it's not too suprising the diesel did better than the hybrid."

    For HSD, on the highway, the gas engine does most of the work but much less work. Less fuel is injected and burned just to keep constant speed. Atkinson cycle engine is efficient at small/partial load just like the diesel engine. The difference is that, Diesel is less efficient in the city and pollute more. Both did a much better job than traditional Otto cycle cars.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Actually Ford is licensing 20 patents for Toyota and developed their own Hybrid system. "

    Wrong!
    Ford says it will modify about 20 of the 370 patents that Toyota (TM) holds for its gas/electric hybrid technology, used in the Prius car. The patents Ford is buying involve software that controls, among other things, whether the gas engine or electric motor is used.

    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/11/autos-87820.htm

    Straight from Detroit news, Ford is licensing 370 Toyota patents from the first generation Prius. We all know how much the new Prius is more efficient than the classic one.

    To see the bigger picture, the new Hybrid Synergy Drive has 230 more new patents than the first Toyota Hybrid System.

    Dennis
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Seawolf,

    Thanks for the clarification about the Toyota patents!

    YMMV,

    MidCow

    WOW, Drove an economy car 22/30 mpog yesterday that they were willing to sell at 1% below invoice. Man was it fast, I was to 80 before I knew it. Is was an SRT4 :)
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Midcow... isn't that the 20k Neon with a turbo?? Don't think I've seen those yet. Getting 51 MPG on this last tank on my Prius. Gotta love it !!! Any news on the EPA #'s for the Escape yet??
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    $26,970 is the announced price on Escape Hybrid.

    The critics that questioned my sources and said the Escape would price at $23,000 have some Crow to eat.
  • kokerkoker Member Posts: 23
    Moparbad, where can I see the pricing for the hybrid. I haven't been able to locate it on the web. As of this am, the dealers are still saying they don't have the pricing either.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=44714
  • caperscapers Member Posts: 8
    I amazes me when you read about the green minded movie stars like Streisand. Telling the world to drive hybrids. WHile they live in multiple 30,000 square feet houses. Probably costs more to heat and cool those house in one year than all the gas I will burn in my SUV for a lifetime! And then I always see them on TV riding in limo's while thier hybrid stays in the garage!

    Get real, hybrids will not save the world. But I think a diesel burning soybean oil will. That's what rudolf diesel designed the engine to burn, not the dirty crap that the oil companies sell us.

    The oil companies bought up all the mass transit systems in California in the 40's and 50's and destroyed them all. Did you know this? Will the politicians tell us this?

    George Bush's energy plan was written by Enron! Get real, all the so called leaders of the USA are in back pockets of the oil companies. We need to clean house and the senate! Before it's too late. The latest estimate is for the oil to dry up by 2026. What will your hybrid burn then? At least a diesel can burn almost anything from peanut oil to soybean oils. Gas engines can't hydrogen is great but you need to make it by using electricity.

    Just a thought...resale value doesn't mean squat in my book
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Complete Pricing

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=18541&ma- ke_id=trust
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Please provide reference to your allegations. Links would be nice. I wonder why they didn't buy the subway system of NYC... that would have been interesting. I can also assure you that there will be plenty of fuel around in 2026. Just not sure if there will be people.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi ANT14:

    ___Thanks for the link.

    The MSRPs of Escape Hybrid are $3,300 to $3,425 above comparably equipped 2005 V-6 powered Ford Escape XLT models.

    ___That amount of additional premium just about kills off any fuel savings one might have hoped for. Ford would have been better off to simply place the 2004 Focus 2.3 PZEV motor in the 2005 Escape as is instead of taking the PZEV HW away … At least Highway miles would have been ~ equivalent at 29 - 30 mpg for the 2WD version and City would have probably been in the low 20&#146;s instead of mid to high 30&#146;s. With that, probably $5,000 + dollars less expensive as well? I am sure someone will look up the exact difference in price between a V6 XLT and the 2.3 L $ loaded up with similar equipment.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Someone mentioned HOV lane access, which is the case in Virginia, you even get special tags so the police know you have HOV access.

    I'll add a few more:

    * in MD, you're state sales tax exempt, 5% up to $2000
    * mileage (duh)
    * range is increased
    * good torque at low speeds

    -juice
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    That is a lot of gas to save to justify the price premium. It does have lower emissions though;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Seems high but small SUVs top out at about $28 grand now anyway. Go price a loaded Liberty.

    -juice
  • oldboyoldboy Member Posts: 59
    I admit that I was wrong in thinking that the Escape Hybrid would be about $23,000. It was based on (mis)information that it would be about $3500 more than the 4 cyl. Given the fact that Ford will only be able to produce about 4,000 this year and 20,000 next year because of a lack of battery packs, I suppose it makes sense to Ford to price the hybrid where they will make money, and supply it only to the most ardent buyers. I for one will not be among them.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > The latest estimate is for the oil to dry up by 2026. What will your hybrid burn then?

    Simple... Ethanol.

    I'm using 10% in my hybrid now, and getting a little better MPG than diesel.

    85% is available locally too. And FFV technonology is quite common now. A hybrid adapted for that is no big deal.

    100% is just as realistic as bio-diesel. So you really don't have much of an argument.

    JOHN
  • gtyler2000gtyler2000 Member Posts: 17
    I ordered an Escape Hybrid from a large dealer in Rockland County, NY on May 29th. I gave them $1000 refundable deposit. The order states that I will get the vehicle for $1000 over list price, which they did not have available. I picked the dark gray exterior color and added the NAV and safety options. He told me 6-8 weeks and I told him no way. He looked at a calendar and said - oh yeah, probably not that soon. I have yet to receive an update from him. I will call this week because I just noticed that the AC outlet is not standard. I want to see if he can add it. I'm not sure if I'd be willing to pay the mark ups ($5000+) that I read other people are seeing.

    Now, here's my reasons for getting this car...

    I currently drive a 97 Ford Taurus and am getting 22MPG which I think sucks since it's mostly highway miles for a car nearly solely used for commuting. We are expecting our third child and, although I really would like to get the new Acura TL, my sedan days are over. We do have a minivan, but it gets 17MPG and I really hate using that for the short weekend trips around town - exactly the trips that the Escape will provide the best gas mileage. Anyone who tries to strap a baby into a car seat knows how much easier it is when the seats are higher up.

    As others have voiced here, I also believe that it is very important to send a message to the car companies that we want them to make the environmental impact problem a top priority.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote john- 100% is just as realistic as bio-diesel.-end

    Biodiesel can be made from palm oil, canola oil, hemp oil, corn oil, waste vegetable oils, animal fats, waste animal fat oils, soybean oil and more.

    There is much more feedstock availability for biodiesel than there is for ethanol.

    Other biomass feedstocks for ethanol besides corn are possible.

    Biodiesel require no modifications to diesel engines. Anything greater than 10% ethanol requires engine modifcations to gasoline engines.

    Ethanol is not as feasible as biodiesel.
  • f111df111d Member Posts: 114
    I'd rather have a common rail diesel, the Hybrid technology just a little too soon. I bet the dealers are not even prepared to send the mechanics to extra training. I know I asked mind and he did think much more training would be nessary??? Definitely wont' even consider.
    At least with the diesel goobs of good Ole low-end torque, if they would use the 2.7 that's in Europe.
    Paul
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Ethanol is not as feasible as biodiesel.

    "feasible" is clearly the wrong word. The definition is "Capable of being accomplished or brought about".

    Perhaps, "more likely" is what you intended to say.

    What did you actually mean?

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > the Hybrid technology just a little too soon

    Huh?

    It will be about 3 years before large numbers of hybrids even hit the roads.

    How much more lead time do you need?

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > At least with the diesel goobs of good Ole low-end torque

    When it comes to low-end torque, electric is capable of putting diesel to shame. To verify that, just look at a train, forklift, or Prius.

    There is quite literally no way for a combustion engine to compete. It isn't capable of RPM as low as just 1. Needing to pump at a minimum of a few hundred RPM is a fundamental limitation caused by the pistons.

    JOHN
  • maxx4memaxx4me Member Posts: 1,340
    thanks moparbad. Your timing is excellent. After reading your post, I gave up on the Escape hybrid and went out and bought an '04 Malibu Maxx for $19,237 out the door. The $4,000 GM rebate was the clincher. I certainly don't think I could ever make up $7,000 in gas savings in two lifetimes.
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