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Comments
Where is your data to support that claim?
The 2004 Prius is a midsize car. It will deliver around 55 MPG (based on EPA ratings). That's nearly double what the other midsize cars offer. So even if the efficiency was "less", that really wouldn't mean much. A 90% improvement would still be very impressive.
JOHN
Regarding Ford, the next hybrid will be the Futura Hybrid sedan, but never expect it to be placed upon a vehicle larger in weight, then the Escape/Futura. Hybrid systems lose their efficiency as the weight of the vehicle is increased.
That leaves us with another alternative, Diesel... which you have the 5.0L Powerestroke Diesel available on certain F-series trucks, and Econoline van. Diesel's benefit them with massive low RPM torque, that's workable for their needs and applications.
Personally, and this is just from what I see myself. These vehicles that are hybrid such as the Prius and Civic HEV come out costing more in the long term. As in, you need to keep the vehicle for about 10 years, to receive the initial return in investment gained by the fuel saved. In fact, take the $3-5K extra that these system command over their base offering, place them in a 10 year moneymarket account, or CD, and you'll do better off in the long term than to spend it initially. But that's just my experience and from what I've read and witnessed.
The next wave/component, of efficiency will be transmissions, and Ford is working with ToroTrak. Torotrak is an Indefintly Variable Tranmission (sort of like CVT), the benefit with Torotrak is it's able to be fitted in high torque vehicles(such as trucks and SUV's). You can try a search online for the site of Torotrak, and they have one Expedition being tested with it, engine loafs at 1000 RPM cruising at 60MPH. While improving it's acceleration times as well. Imagine the gas savings there...
> mainly because the fuel savings was so minimal
Apparently, you aren't aware that they are several different types of hybrids...
"ASSIST" hybrids have that limitation.
"FULL" hybrids offer a much greater return.
...and there are even more configurations available within the "FULL" type.
Size wasn't the issue. It was the ability to tow an obsence amount of weight, which is something the smaller vehicles don't support. Towing a more normal amount is possible though. Both the Escape-Hybrid and RX400-Hybrid will have the ability to tow a 1,000 pound trailer.
JOHN
> and Ford is working with ToroTrak... Imagine the gas
> savings there...
Inventions like that commonly have a fundamental problem. It's usually high cost, low reliability, or the exhaust is horribly dirty (NOx & HC).
And of course, there isn't much of a benefit in heavy commute traffic or city driving. That's where you need HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive, the first vehicle to use it is the 2004 Prius), since it allows you to drive using just electricity. The engine shuts off completely. And on the highway at fast speeds, fuel is cut whenever even just the slightest road decline is encountered.
JOHN
So why would the Escape be able to attain 40MPG, and not this Explorer with the same system?.... weight.... The Escape weighs 3100-3400lbs, compared to Explorer's 4400-4800lbs, the usefulness of the hybrid system was not effective considering the Explorer's major weight difference.
Not saying in the future they wouldn't revisit the idea, but from internal documents, they are NOT placing a hybrid system in the Explorer ever, and will be left for lighter vehicles. They believe that if someone buys an SUV, then fuel savings isn't much of a conern.
Well, since most people claim they bought the Explorer for the "safety" benefit and the 4WD, there won't be any loss.
And obviously, they would put a propotionally larger motor in the larger vehicle, so it would be able to tow more.
> a hybrid system
Do you even know what TYPE of hybrid system?
The 2004 Prius (a "FULL" hybrid) delivers 295 ft-lbs of torque. That's actually more than some small trucks offer. A large motor like that is quite capable.
An "ASSIST" hybrid has a significantly smaller motor providing much less power.
JOHN
Aside from that, the engine they had chosen would not be workable in other vehicles across the line up (let alone sedans) so in total, their only application might have been Ranger and Explorer. Nor did they see the validity of people spending $4-5K more for such a system in their Explorer. At least with the Escape Hybrid, the price of the option will be a bit more realistic, and as the techonology is mass produced, and placed in the future Futura, then the price should come down a bit.
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I just noticed that error, I didn't mean to state Assist, Opps. But as I stated, the engine they were choosing for their hybrid, couldn't be use in other Ford applications, whereas the Hybrid Escape's system, can be implemented into the Futura, and numerous other FWD/AWD vehicles that will share the JV Platform.
The Explorer would have requires applications where RWD/4x4 configuration be allowed (meaning mostly trucks and SUV's in their line), but after their research and study, they found other methods might be more effective.
On a side note, they even canceled a light truck diesel 4.5L V6 engine engine, cousin of the 6.0L Powerstroke (nicknamed BabyStroke). That had to do with emmissions regulations that were to be phased in 2006.
I'm still a skeptic though. Don't see the Hybrid as a solution long term. I see more potential in the fuel cell. But short term, I think ANT's comments on transmission and engine refinement make a lot of sense. Especially in large applications.
GM has no real plans for fuel cells, that missed the boat on that, as well as a few other issues. Last week I was discussing that with someone, pertaining to a segment/market/trend that GM stated they would NOT follow. I just can't think exactly what it was.
And they have him introducing Buick SUV's now on TV. Have you seen it?
> Just stick to the Honda FCX for fuel cells for now...
Until an automaker actually delivers a realistically affordable solution, don't give them too much credit.
The fuel-cell prototypes are just plain too expensive right now (anywhere from $500,000 to $1,000,000 each). And they are neither efficient nor reliable.
The clean vehicles are a bit of shame too, since all but two of them can only be purchased in California. (The two exceptions are Prius and Insight-CVT. Just look up vehicles that have a rating of SULEV or PZEV for details.) So even though they are a realistic option, you can't actually buy one from your local dealer.
JOHN
Follow the link to read more... http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2003-09-18-pze- v-focus_x.htm
> partial zero-emission vehicle — to be sold nationwide.
But it wasn't available nationwide when it was originally introduced. For awhile, it could only be purchased in California and New York. It's nice to see they are now providing an opportunity for consumers to choose.
Also, "first" really doesn't mean much when the "second" will be available literally just days later. Both the 2004 Prius and the PZEV Focus will be available next month.
JOHN
Ironically thru all this, Ford still has the most diverse alternative fuel efficient engines. Like the Flexible Fuel Taurus, Ranger. Gas powered Crown Vic, etc. etc. All are overlooked of course and cannot be compared to the higher efficieny of such hybrid systems. But as an example....
Unfortunately, that's true. I live in the area where they've been testing the acceptance of E85 use in FFV cars & trucks.
Only once over the last few years have I ever seen a person actually put E85 in their tank.
So even though they can use E85, they choose gas instead. And there is no real cost difference either, so that isn't a factor. E85 is always 25 cents less than gas. So efficiency hit you take is made up for by the lower cost.
My observations base the resistence on these 2 factors. One is that people don't really understand what "E85" and "FFV" mean, even though they own a vehicle of that design. Two is that they simply don't want to have to fillup sooner.
JOHN
In the metro area of Minnesota where E85 is easy to find, the only type of gas you can buy is with a 10% mixture of Ethanol.
JOHN
E10 = 10% Ethanol
It is 10% Ethanol here ALL YEAR LONG.
And since crops needed to create the Ethanol are grown locally, we are pleased to be helping out those farmers rather than having to drill for more oil.
JOHN
Ah well, in disappointing news, Ford Delaying Fleet of Hybrid SUVs (Fox).
Maybe they'll arrive late next summer.
Steve, Host
Not sure if it was here, or another newsboard, but I've hinted that it would be pushed back a bit.
The Extended Expedition Project has been pushed back a few months to coincide with the next Expy revision. As in, Expect it to debut when a new touch-up of the normal Expy takes place.
There's a few factors involved as well, so not to get complicated, let's also take note it's built on the F-250 platform, therefore they'll be producted TILL the point that the Heavy Duty F-series are remodeled. Also look for the Triton 5.4L 3V engine to be implemented into the normal Expy....THEN......After that time, look for Extended Expy to be talked about and shortly introduced.
Timeline: A) NEW F-150 production totally phased in at ALL plants, Heritage Model dropped. (next year).
C) 1: Heavy Duty F-series retouched needing new 5.4L 3V engines
2: Excursion platform not really needed anymore, new Extended Expy to be phased in.
They have address they do not plan on offering any diesels on any vehicle except the Silverado with the 6.6L Duramax.
Ok Now I remember... Let's continue....
Having mainstream passenger vehicles such as Passat and Liberty fitted with diesels, might allow other automaker's to study their feasability in the U.S. market.
And I'm stating "mainstream" vehicles, being it's already available on the Jetta, the heart of the segment is midsized vehicles whereas the Jetta is subcompact. Let me get that out of the way before someone jumps on it.
But of course, that's for it's hardware. That may not help for the placement of your hardware.
JOHN
31 Oct 2003
Source: just-auto.com editorial team
Ford will start production of hybrid petrol-electric versions of its Escape sport utility vehicle in July 2004, with a target of selling 10,000 to 20,000 a year, company executives said on Thursday, according to Reuters.
The report noted that Ford has yet to set prices for the hybrid Escape, which may achieve fuel economy of up to 40 miles per gallon in city driving but added that programme managers at a media briefing and test drive said the hybrid Escape would be profitable though the full cost of developing the hybrid system would not be shouldered by Escape buyers.
Reuters said the hybrid Escape uses an electric motor and battery pack as an additional power source for its four-cylinder engine. The batteries charge when the Escape cruises or brakes, and the electric motor eases the load on the engine under acceleration.
Reuters said the the hybrid Escape will be built on the same assembly line in Claycomo, Missouri, that builds regular Escapes. A front-wheel-drive hybrid Escape should achieve 35 to 40 miles per gallon in city driving and 29 to 31 mpg in highway driving, compared with 19 mpg and 25 mpg ratings for a V6 powered Escape, the report added.
Phil Martens, Ford's group vice president of product creation, told Reuters it was necessary for Ford to develop its own hybrid system because it needed hybrid expertise to build even more advanced vehicles in the future, such as hydrogen-powered fuel cell cars.
While the company considered buying a hybrid system from Toyota, "we didn't want to avoid the process of learning about this technology," Martens told Reuters, adding: "To us, its a building block to the future."
According to Reuters, Martens said the Escape's hybrid system was designed to be easily adapted to other models - Ford has said it will sell a hybrid version of its upcoming Futura sedan, but Martens declined to say what other hybrid models Ford might offer.
Source: Just-Auto.com
A lot of people have been assuming the Escape Hybrid would be a generation behind because they were using Toyota's 1st gen system. Now, since it seems they developed their own proprietary system, for all we know they could be ahead of the game.
It'll be interesting to see how this all works out. Now it seems that GM is who will really be behind in this game. They're too busy toying around with hydrogen to worry about hybrid technology, which is what the consumer is going to accept. Seriously, how is a tank of compressed hydrogen going to react in a severe accident? My guess is all the passengers will have a free cremation and ash scattering all in one shot.