BMW European Delivery

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Most common numbers you'll see are between 800-1200 over ED invoice.

ahdanna · October 2006

Well it turns out my current lease is up at the end of Jan, not the end of Mar as I originally thought, so i need to get to work!

Does anyone have the money factors and residuals on 328xi and 335 coupes for 2 years 24/30K and 3 years 36/45? I know car_man offers that up on another board, but it is not related to ED.

Thanks once again!
ahdanna

stever · October 2006

Get a trip to Europe with that new car (CNN)

moesterwinter · November 2006

Somewhere in the contracts that I signed for me ED lease, I came a across a statement that said that I couldn't pick-up the car more than two weeks after the official pick-up date. Does this mean that I can pick-up the car any time within two weeks after the official pickup date? If so, do you run into any hassle in doing so, or is this standard proceedure?

I am arriving in Germany early, and plan to travel around. I would prefer to pick up the car a bit later then scheduled. What you you think?

blueguydotcom · November 2006

AFAIK, you must pick up the car on the specified date. Could be wrong.

bayerischemw · November 2006

I doubt you will get this but nobody is getting 'ripped off' if two parties come to an agreement and everyone is satisfied. I wonder if you have the capacity to understand the term Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. If BMW says you can get 7% off the USMSRP who are you to determine what is fair for your local dealer? BMW has weighed in, the dealer has an opinion but you seem to think you know better.
Your salesman can not keep up to date with all the product, take the time to explain it to his/her clients, treat everyone exceedingly well (despite that treatment often not being returned)AND make 15% of $800 while paying his/her own bills. They will be gone when you need them or if you think about torturing him/her for another car.
If the difference between buying and not boils down to $1000 on a $38000 car, you can't afford it.
End Of My Rant: The best customers I have, receive more referrals from and genuinely enjoy selling a BMW to are the least difficult and most reasonable. I bet your a treat to negotiate with. Storm out of any dealerships in the past?
Anyway sorry for the tirade, obviously I'm effected by the rip off coment.

pat · November 2006

Um... You're coming on a little strong, there. This is a site for consumers to help each other in vehicle purchases. Obviously part of that assistance is with pricing. Salesmen are welcome here - we have a number of very helpful sales folks as members - but let's not make it personal when someone advises someone else there is more room for negotiation, even if you don't care for the phrasing.

Welcome to the Forums. Have you visited our Smart Shopper board? There are a lot of discussions there you will probably find interesting. Many of those discussions are where the sales folks here hang out. Enjoy!

bayerischemw · November 2006

You are right about the emphasis on my end. I would never begrudge a client getting the best deal possible. But you must agree in the circumstance referenced nobody is getting ripped off.

bayerischemw · November 2006

Have a great time in Germany! The reason for the two weeks you've mentioned is due to the car being registered in advance of your arrival and unless you requested otherwise the car will only be insured for two weeks.
They will try to accomodate you if there is an emergency but if you can help it try not to be that guy/american.

mikefm58 · November 2006

If the difference between buying and not boils down to $1000 on a $38000 car, you can't afford it

I totally disagree with that statement. I have friends in real estate who have had $500K deals fall through at the closing table for things valued a whole lot less (Hey you said that chandalier stayed). Sometimes it ain't about the money.

bayerischemw · November 2006

Fair point Mike but you are talking about to changes to the agreement in prinicple: the chandalier was there when viewed the house. I'm talking about the agreement. If the car ended up not having a steering wheel I would be wrong to suggest it cost another $1000. I've had people get pissed about the type of floor mats so I would agree it's not always about the money.

dino001 · November 2006

If the difference between buying and not boils down to $1000 on a $38000 car, you can't afford it

This is a salesman pitch to extract better commission. How about $1100? Is that better? $1200? $1300? Where is the magic line whether it is "legitimate" to bargain and not be called a poor man?

To buy or not to buy an item is not only about its affordability. It is also about the perceived value. One could afford a $100K vehicle, but willing to spend only $37K. One could think that this particular product is simply not worth $38K, but $37K is OK for it. He/she calls it and now it's up to the seller to agree on that price or not. If yes, the buyer was abviously right - the car was not worth $38, if not - he was probably wrong; the car was not worth $37, at least not to the seller, not at that moment.

And by the way, $1000 can buy you whole lot of stuff, so there is no reason that even the richest person in the world may not want to spend that money, if they don't have to, or not willing to...

blueguydotcom · November 2006

I doubt you will get this but nobody is getting 'ripped off' if two parties come to an agreement and everyone is satisfied.

True. Like ebay, if someone is willing to pay an exceptionally high rate for a product and they're satisfied with the price then they really weren't ripped off. They have a different valuation than I.

If BMW says you can get 7% off the USMSRP who are you to determine what is fair for your local dealer?

Yes. That's too much profit in my eyes.

Your salesman can not keep up to date with all the product, take the time to explain it to his/her clients, treat everyone exceedingly well (despite that treatment often not being returned)AND make 15% of $800 while paying his/her own bills. They will be gone when you need them or if you think about torturing him/her for another car.

Not my problem. He chose to go into sales and live that way.

If the difference between buying and not boils down to $1000 on a $38000 car, you can't afford it.

Private valuation. Affording the car is easy...thinking it is worth the asking price is another thing. You have sort of stepped on your own argument. I agree, everybody values deals differently and therefore what is a severe rip off in my eyes - say $2000 profit - is to others acceptable and to a salesguy, not nearly enough.

I bet your a treat to negotiate with. Storm out of any dealerships in the past?

Nope. My BMW in 03 I purchased by making a test drive of both a 325i and 330i. Once I unwrapped and drove my 330i ZHP, I knew I wanted it.

My last BMW I got by making a call to the same salesman. One call. We agreed on $1k over ED invoice. I felt that was fair and he took the deal, so he must have also felt it fair.

Maybe it was because the was my second BMW in 3 years, my bro-in-law also bought from him due to my referral, my sister plans on buying from him and my 06 is a 2 year lease, assuring I will be back in 2008? Hmmm. He sees the value in me as a customer. 5 sales over 5 years isn't enough for you - 3 to the same guy?

I don't much care if I offended you. I am in business with my BMW salesman, not his buddy.

bayerischemw · November 2006

I'll admit I was originally offended and I'm glad you don't care, why would you? As I've said I don't have an issue with a client trying to get a good or better deal and your negotiating style is perfect. Let me determine whether you are going to be reasonable. As you said both you and your salesman agreed, he had to have determined it was worth doing, I would take the same deal for a good repeat customer and referral source who is also not difficult to deal with. You suggested to somebody that the local dealer was trying to rip them off, I was making a defense of the dealers' position. And, besides, you agreed with me: if they are both happy its not a rip-off.
You are also correct that I chose this profession and its undoubtedly my fault for sticking with it. But, and you're not going to believe this, I love the cars and I enjoy getting other people excited about the brand. I'm not going to gripe about how long it takes to train how to pair the bluetooth phones, input info in the Nav system, activate the satellite radio, set up the BMW assist, effectively demonstrate the car, make sure all of the paperwork is in order and be able to keep this straight for all the different models for $150 (15% of $1000).
I know its not much but a competitor has started paying college kids $100-$150 per car. Of course the retention is low because even a college kid won't last on that but most important is the technical expertise is not there. As I said it doesn't matter because so far more customers are willing to put up with that to save a few hundred dollars than the numbers of customers who will not.
I hope you would agree that eventually it will make a difference that the information you receive is accurate and the person handling your transaction is knowledgeable. I'm sure I won't be selling by that time but it will eventually make a difference.
By the way, since you liked the ED I hope you saw the response regarding the pick-up date. The car is only insured for two weeks from the date of pick-up that's why they only allow a two week window. They will try to adjust if required by the client in extreme circumstances but really you should stick to the designated date and time.

bayerischemw · November 2006

Of course that was a pitch to extract a better commission. And, of course $1100-$1300 would be better but so too would the MSRP. I have already agreed that my initial reaction may have been a little strong, you're talking about a price I'm talking about my livelihood. However, my reaction was to a specific circumstance: bluedot said somebody was getting ripped-off. A statement by the way he has backed off of because its an agreement between two parties.
This specific circumstance included a negotiation and although you are correct about the perceived value you are in part making my argument. The same person can actually afford the car but if you try to buy it for $37000 and there are no takers and you don't actually conclude a transaction you are not very smart. You're not being called a poor man because you want a deal.

Incidentally, I sell some of the most expensive cars on the road besides BMW's. Those clients are just as likely to negotiate but they generally recognize the value of the product at the sticker price before they walk through the door and while there isn't another dealership for several hundred miles they have the ability to travel where ever they need to get the car. I'm baffled at times by the amount of technology in BMW's and of course in my very clearly unbiased opinion the performance of the machines and yet it seems as though nobody thinks its worth an additional 3%. Well, actually, BMW does because that's the typical price increase from one year to the next.

As an aside, pretty soon you'll be able to buy a 50" plasma TV for under $1000 so you are right you can do a lot with that money! Umm....

dino001 · November 2006

Thanks - as long as we have understanding, we would probably get there. I read once a salesguy screaming on Edmunds that X car was a great value at MSRP, to which he got a response "great, so it is even a greater value at invoice".

A reasonable person knows what they may expect and when it is too much, but you know how it is: if you don't ask, you won't get for sure and it surely works both ways

Since the car retail industry runs its pricing as negotiable, you'll surely see all kinds of offers, opinions, approaches and tactics used to get a deal, from lay down to shrew, from easy to offensive. Part of the business, I guess.

wmdavis1 · November 2006

Does anyone know ED invoice for X3? What would be reasonalbe price. My dealer willing to give $1,500 state side. Also, after drop-off in Europe, how long before I would get my vehicle state side. Thanks.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

Return depends largely on where you live. Figure 6 weeks min and 8-9 weeks max. I've heard of 4-5 weeks on the East Coast.

X3 pricing...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164069

Look at Base Price Euro Delivery Munich Pick Up for your starting point. 800-1200 over that price is a "fair" deal. Add options based on invoice pricing. Don't forget to add the shipping charge of 695.

wmdavis1 · November 2006

My car specs at $38,305 ED invoice, $41435 ED MSRP (plus mats state side at $148). My target price is $40K, which is ~$1,700 above euro invoice. You sugget that a better deal is to be had ($800-$1,200 above invoice), but I don't seem to be able to get any area dealer to go there I don't have a trade and am not doing financing thru dealer, so they have no other way of making profit from me. Is this price reasonable? If not, how do I get dealer to lower price?

trapeze · December 2006

BlueGuyDotCom (Or anyone else!):

I am getting ready to sign the papers for my European Delivery BMW. I'm signing all the standard BMWFS forms for a (24-month) two year lease. However, my dealer tells me that I have to make the second payment. (Timeline: first payment Jan 1; ED pick up in Munich on Jan 15; second payment Feb 1; third payment March 1).

Is this correct? Is there a separate form I sign that says BMWFS pays the second payment because ED? Does it just happen at BMWFS and I don't need to get anything from the dealer?

Any clarification would be helpful. Thanks.

tubulus · December 2006

Looking at buying a new 328xi, with all the trimmings (Nav, cold weather, premium, sports). I calculated that US MSRP is $43570, and ED invoice (with all the options) is 37,895. From what I've gathered, it is tough to get much less than $1,000 off MSRP in the US - is this correct? I am having trouble findings numbers on the prices paid board b/c leasers have so many other numbers that can be adjusted besides price. So if the typical ED price is about invoice + 1000, it seems like I'm looking at 39k for ED, vs about 42.5k for US. Does this sound right? That extra 3.5k should more than pay for the trip... If I am waiting til March anyway, will I be able to get a better deal on an 07 in the US, ie much closer to invoice?
Thanks

blueguydotcom · December 2006

If you make your first payment on Jan 1, payment 2 is going to be due Feb 1 and BMWFS will handle it.

You won't need to do a thing. It all happens seamlessly behind the scenes.

blueguydotcom · December 2006

March might help a bit - winter months are the slower selling months.

Your price seems right and fair.

enkur · December 2006

I was offered today $1200 over ED invoice from a local dealer in Austin, TX. My dealer said that the car takes about 45 days and that I can lock in rates for 60 days. They will give whichever is the lowest rate upto 15 days prior to delivery in Munich.

blueguydotcom · December 2006

That sounds pretty good.

Just make sure of a few things:

You're not charged MACO fees - that's a no-no with ED cars
Your residual is based off the US MSRP (some snakey dealers try to use your negotiated price - which is really your cap cost).

jtla · December 2006

Hi, Blueguy,

Thank you for all the ED advise. It is very helpful and I am seriously considering about it. Just a couple questions need your clarification:

1. BMW paying for 2nd payment -- Does this mean I only make 23 payments on a 24-month lease (of course, I only get to drive 23 months also), or does the lease get extended for one month so I still make 24 payments over 25 months? When the clock on the 24-months lease start ticking?

2. How the ED pricing work with BMW special financing program? For example, right now BMW has special year-end MF till January 2. If I sign an ED deal now, can I get the ED saving and the special lease rate (considering I would not take delivery till, say, March the earliest? Or, will I be subject to the rate then effective?

Thank you in advance, and Happy New Year.

blueguydotcom · December 2006

1. You only make 23 payments. Please not you make your first payment 15 days before pickup. So in all likelihood you will probably make 2 payments by the time your car arrives. Unless you pick up and drop off really fast! It starts ticking 15 days before pickup (unless your dealer is awful and tries to force you to sign earlier).

2. You should get the best deal available from the time you order until you sign your lease. Your dealer should give you (demand it in writing if you're worried) the best mf that was available over the course of the build period. Of course, dealers can mark up MF 0.0004 and ED automatically adds 0.0003.

Be absolutely positive all of this is determined:
1. Dealer lease MF markup
2. That you get the best lease rate during your build period
3. That they are using the US MSRP to find your residual.
4. That your negotiated price is your cap cost
5. If you care, that you can buy Multiple Security Deposits (my scummy dealer would not allow it but only said this at as I signed - ditto the MF markup).

Get it in writing. Negotiate sale price, then get the MF markup, exactly when you must make first payment and if they accept MSDS.

Happy New Year...my fiancee is going to kill me for being online.

jtla · December 2006

Thank you, Blueguy. I truly appreciate your taking time to reply messages on New Year's Eve. Not to be intruding, but I did notice that you now say "my fiancee" instead of "my girlfriend". Congratulations, and once again, Happy New Year!

circlew · January 2007

Good luck and Happy New Year. Keep the info coming 'cause we all appreciate it!

Regards,
OW

blueguydotcom · January 2007

Yeah, gave her a rock a few days ago. She wanted to end 2006 on a high note.

pat · January 2007

Congrats, blueguy!!

nyccarguy · January 2007

congratulations dude! HAppy & Healthy New Year to you both!

jobel · January 2007

Does anyone know of a dealer negotiation off the ED invoice area in the Philadelphia region?
Thanks

sevo · January 2007

Anyone have any recent experience with ED using a dealer in Tennessee near the Chattanooga area? (Looking for $1000 over ED invoice for a 2007 335i)

jobel · January 2007

any suggestions for an ED dealer in the Philly area.
Thanks

sevo · January 2007

Anyone still posting here?

Anyone have any recent experience with ED using a dealer in Tennessee near the Chattanooga area? (Looking for $1000 over ED invoice for a 2007 335i)

kelf · February 2007

Apparently, no one is interested in saving money on ED Delivery in 2007. If do: which BMW dealers do few hundred $ over ED Invoice?

blueguydotcom · February 2007

Never heard of a few hundred over ED invoice. Best I've ever heard of is $700. $1000 is most common.

kelf · February 2007

Thank you-very prompt.1- Who was the $700 over ED Invoice?
2-Where is the current ED Invoice price listed?

blueguydotcom · February 2007

Kelf,

I saw someone claim the $700 I believe on Bimmerfest. I didn't note it because quite frankly the difference between $700 and $1000 doesn't merit the time and energy required to track down and visit a remote dealer.

ED invoices are available at bimmerfest.com/forums - go to the forum of the car you're interested (e90, e60, x3, etc) and click the pricing thread. Pricing threads are sticky and always at the top of each forum.

kelf · February 2007

Excellent info.

snixdorff · March 2007

Bayerischemw,
I'm in the market for a new 5 series 535xi for ED. I'm a supplier to BMW and have picked up 3 already in Munich over the past few years.

I'm in the Boston area and will probably be making my offers this weekend.

Stuart

aae · April 2007

I am about to close on a 650c for ED on July 16. My dealer tells me that the clock on my lease starts July 1. So I have to pay for two weeks when I don't have the car in addition to the 8 weeks the car will spend in transport. Also, I am being told that BMW pays the lease for the second month. However, they are adjusting my MF up so that my monthly payment INCREASES by $40 per month over a 36 month lease from what I was told a few days ago. What is this about? Are they trying to stick me with a last minute flim flam?

blueguydotcom · April 2007

1. Yes you need to pay 2 weeks in advance of pickup.
2. BMWFS pays for month 2 of your lease
3. MF increase is 0.0003
4. Be sure you know the EXACT MF they are using. They're probably boosting it on you. Make sure they're at or near the buy-rate MF on your car.
5. You can lock in any MF/lease rate while waiting for your car to build. Obviously, you're not bound by the numbers of today but rather you should get the best lease rates during your entire build cycle.
6. Look into using Multiple Security Deposits - you will drop your payments greatly.
7. Make sure the acquisition costs and doc costs aren't artifically inflated. BMW's acquisition cost is $695. Anything higher is dealer profit. Doc costs over $100 are totally bogus.

aae · April 2007

Many thanks. Great info. Just a few more questions if you don't mind:

When I pay two weeks in advance of pick-up, does my lease start two weeks before pick-up or on the day of pick-up?

What is the buy-rate MF?

What are multiple security deposits and what do they apply to?

What is the point of BMW paying the second month if they increase your payments with the MF boost that wipes out the second month credit? Also, I guess I have to pay for the car while its in transit, correct?

Again, very much appreciated

blueguydotcom · April 2007

1. Unfortunately, yes, your lease starts early. Be thankful as my moron dealers insisted I pay 4 weeks early.

2. Oh, no. BMW allows dealers to bump lease money factors by up to 0.0004 points. That's a health bump that will result in much higher payments. 1 point over is a good profit; 2 or 3 is really sick; 4 is obscene.

3. Multiple Security Deposits allow you to lower your money factor rate with cash that will come back to you at lease end. Essentially you're putting 7 security deposits down and this will result in much lower monthly payments.

You can invest in 7 MSDs and the result is a reduction of 0.00049 in your money factor. As an example the 15k mile, 36 month 650i's lease rates are below:

36 Month  Residual 57% of MSRP  .00300 Base Rate

7 MSDs will allow you to drop that rate to 0.00251.

I strongly suggest you visit the bimmerfest.com ask-a-dealer forum and european delivery forum. Everybody there is very helpful and they will explain everything to you.

http://bimmerfest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

cdnpinhead · April 2007

well, asking really, if someone has done the opportunity cost thing on the multiple security deposits.

Putting $X thousands in escrow for the term of the lease means it's not in (at worst) a money-market mutual fund, drawing 5.5%.

Also, MF variations in the third or fourth decimal place probably make the people who lease regularly (I don't) take extreme notice (cartwheels down the hall, that sort of thing). It would be helpful, if it's not too onerous, to let the uninitiated know what a MF shift of 0.000X means in terms of monthly payment.

Thanks

kyfdx · April 2007

It works out to a 9%-14% after-tax return on the amount of the security deposits.. depending on how good of a lease deal you negotiate, and the price of the vehicle..

Usually, in the 10%-12% range..

regards,
kyfdx

blueguydotcom · April 2007

On MSDs the ROI is much better than 5.5% a year and it's tax free. I know on my 06 330i's lease, the ROI would have been about $800 over the course of 2 years. $3150 in MSDs = $800 savings. That's far better than 10% a year (and it's tax free).

I have zero knowledge of his deal (cap cost, base, MF, residual, miles, taxes) to do the math for him. I'd assume someone purchasing a 650 would have the ability to run these numbers through something like the calculator at leaseguide.com.

aae · April 2007

Just one more question:

My dealer is telling me that my base rate is .00285. He also says BMWFS requires that this be marked-up to .00315 due to the seond month lease payment by BMWFS. So, he says, his true buy rate MF is .00315. He is then marking this up to .00335. Is this correct? Is the initial .0003 mark-up really a BMWFS requirement that the dealer has no control over?

BMW European Delivery

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