VW Ignition Coil Problems?

altair4 · February 2003

Geez, I have this mental image of the President of VW of America, after having worked a long day trying to get the coil pack problem nailed down, feeling pretty good with himself that a letter had been sent out to the customers trying to set things right, crawling into bed and switching on Letterman for a little relief. He probably spilled hot cocoa on himself when this hit the air.

ncvol · February 2003

Thanks for the list. I was shocked that it made such a national level.

swschrad · February 2003

that it doesn't count.

but that's what happens when you let customers fester and mumble and cuss in public without addressing their concerns, your image breaks out in bloody pustules and you are laughed to death.

that's why the Tylenol tampering cases were a watershed in public relations. the CEO got on the news programs, starting with Nightline, within 24 hours and pulled the whole product line until they could tamper-proof it, and offered medical assistance to anybody who had a case. he slapped the table, put his butt on the line, and flatly promised they would not sell until there was no way this could happen again, and would cover every legitimate claim while they reinvented product safety for the whole consumer market. they were off the shelves for something like 14 months.

still the gold standard in crisis response, very seldom reached, alas. despite all the topical jokes about "Tylanide" and "Killemall", they were #1 again almost immediately after the coated caplet came back into the market. dollars to doughnuts you have some at home and at work and trust that Tylenol will do its deal the same way, every time, no matter what. probably trust it more than your family members, in fact. they handled the two or three goofuses and their little plots right, and the world noticed.

VW has nobody to blame but themselves, and I bet no customer has to pay for a coil for five years on these engines as a result, no matter what happens to them.

for reference, it took a little while for Ford to get it in line over some sort of little dustup over the tires on Explorers, but costly Nasser finally got that right with the "customer satisfaction initiative" of recalling every bloody Wilderness AT tire ever used on a Ford-built product. and the explorer remains #1 in its market. folks notice honest make-goods.

mrd63 · February 2003

Got my letter from VW today. Basically it's just a reiteration of their existing policy: if it breaks, we'll fix it. No mention of pro-actively replacing the defective coils BEFORE they fail. Now, all the news stories mentioned that VW would eventually replace all the coils, but the letter says nothing about that. Frank Maguire did, however, "personally apologize" for my inconvenience. Thanks.

andys120 · February 2003

It's "unintended acceleration" all over again only this time it's unintended deceleration and it's a real problem. It was handled very poorly.
Anyone who frequents the internet sites with VW/Audi content has been aware of this problem since this fall. Evidentally that doesn't include VAGs technical or customer service mavens.

How many times will VAG take one step backward for every two forward in North America? They had real winners in the Passat and the A4 but they have blown it.

I say this as a fan of Volkswagen group cars who has owned them on and off since 1965 and always enjoyed good service and good luck with them including my current '98 A4 AvantQ. Heads should roll!

mrd63 · February 2003

This one has some information I hadn't read before.

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=42523

fredvh · February 2003

Volkswagen/Audi in Massive Recall

More than 850,000 Volkswagen and Audi vehicles --
about 530,000 sedans and hatchbacks sold in the
U.S. alone -- are being recalled for a faulty
ignition coil. Volkswagen announced the recall last
week, noting that the problem could cause spark
plug failure and rough running, which is usually
indicated by the vehicle's "Check Engine" light.
Most of the cars affected carry the VW corporate
1.8-liter turbo four (which includes the Audi A4
and TT coupe; the VW Golf, GTI, Jetta, New Beetle
and Passat), the 2.8-liter VR6 and the 3.0-liter
V6 engines, as well as the VW Passat's W8.

leejamesk · February 2003

I am a new Audi A4 1.8T owner (bad luck) and commute over 200 miles a day. Since Audi/VW will only replace coils after the vehicle fails, I am forced to wait until I experience a break-down on my daily commute before this manufacturer will voluntarily replace the defective parts!

How come the US Governmental agencies that "regulate cars" have not gotten involved and MANDATED AN INVOLUNTARY RECALL?

cyberpmg · February 2003

James,

I believe that the US Government hasn't issued a manadatory recall for at least two reasons. First, I have not heard of any owner of a failed coil encounter any physical injury or fatality from the failure. Sure, one can say that the potential exists, but since it hasn't happened for the thousands of failures that have occurred, it's more than likely that it won't.

Second, both VW and Audi have made public announcements about the problem along with plans for the replacement of the failed coils and plans for the eventual replacement of all coils regardless of failure. Usually, the Government won't do anything if the company has announced plans for replacement.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2003

Looks like VW is going to replace all the coil packs regardless of whether they fail or not.

All affected cars, all coil packs.

See post #111, also we'll have a link for you in just a bit.

So this should wrap up this mess for everyone in the near future.

revka · February 2003

Volkwagen and Audi To Replace All Ignition Coil Parts ON 2001, 2002 AND SOME 2003 MODELS

To quote some of the article:

"We know that some ignition coils installed in our cars are not up to our high quality standards, and we are determined to do the right thing for our customers. The right thing to do is to fix every single car with these coils by replacing them whether they are broken yet or not. That is exactly what we will do as soon as we have the parts,' said Gerd Klauss, president and CEO, Volkswagen of America, Inc."

and

"The updated customer service action, replacing all ignition coils whether they fail or not, will be implemented in the coming months."

Perhaps this may put some of your concerns to rest. Near the end of the article, you can read details of their Customer Service Action. They've also listed VW and Audi 800 customer service relations numbers for customers that have questions.

Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host

kelvinleung · February 2003

We received the letter couple weeks ago and we started to think that there might be potential problem 'cos my wife drive 40miles a day on busy freeway with obnoxious drivers around.

Yesterday, my wife stopped by the dealer here in Arizona. Because she felt there is some lack of power couple days ago in her 2003 1.8T which we bought in Oct last year. The service department tested the car and said the car we fine. And the service manager said so many excuses like "there is not a lot of problem cars out there", "we can't fix the coil unless it breaks", "even it broke, we can only replace the one which failed". With all these excuses he brushed off my wife. On her way back to work, she thought it might be a good idea to get some proof of this checkup. So she went back to the dealer immediately and asked the service manager to get a copy of the test he has done to the coils. Then he said it can be done and took the car to the garage again. This time it takes much longer time for him to test it. 30 mins later, he came out and told my wife that they are going to replace all the coils because the datecode of the coils shows they might be the bad coils. Then we got all 4 coils replaced.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2003

NHTSA-- I don't think a mandatory recall is necessary except for demonstrated safety hazards,(as in people being killed or hurt with the defect actually proven to be at fault) and a rough-running engine or even a stall has never been shown to be dangerous, in terms of actual evidence or accident data. It's more of a fear than a fact that such a thing would be dangerous. It's really no more dangerous than running out of gas.

So I agree that a government mandated recall is not appropriate for this type of fault as genuinely annoying and inconvient as it may be.

goffsroad · February 2003

As I write this, my 2002 Passat has been sitting at the dealership waiting for a coil pack for the past 5 days. The dealer will not replace all four of them, only the one that went bad. I of course asked that all four be replaced, but was told they can only replace the one that went bad because of the difficulty in getting them. To add insult to injury, they gave me a Toyota Echo to drive around while I'm waiting.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2003

Yes, but you will get all of them replaced as soon as they have them, so hopefully your hassles will soon be over on that count.

goffsroad · February 2003

I love my Passat, don't get me wrong... But it has been 10 days since I took it in to the dealer for a coil pack. The dealer has no idea when they will get it in. This is becoming totally ridiculous. Maybe I should have bought that Honda Accord.

blancobasin · February 2003

My Passat was at the dealership for 28 days waiting for two coils. They refused to replace the other two. It is my wife's car and she only uses the car to drive the kids to school. She refuses to drive any distance fearing the other two will go bad and leave her stranded.

I am still waiting for the letter from VW concerning the replacement of the other coils. This is our last VW.

mrd63 · February 2003

I had already scheduled a Providence to Montreal round-trip when I became aware of the coilpack problem via the news media (my 2002 Passat GLS 1.8 blew two coils back in October but I thought it was an isolated incident). I debated the merits of renting a car for the 700 mile trip or just risking it with the Passat. I finally decided to go the rental route and made the trip without incident in a Mazda 626. I returned home on Monday, backed the Passat out of the garage for a quick trip to the corner store and...the two remaining defective coils blew out. Talk about a close call. I took it to the nearest dealer (VW of North Attleboro, MA) and they had me back on the road in one day, as they had in October. So now I'm whole again, with four replacement J series coilpacks. But it'll take awhile before I really feel secure again with this car, if ever.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2003

Oh you will, especially after you see other makes of cars broken down on the highway. A streak of bad luck with our own cars has a way of narrowing our vision, don't you think?

newcar31 · February 2003

"A streak of bad luck with our own cars has a way of narrowing our vision, don't you think?"

It's not just his car that has these problems. I don't know if you could call it a "streak of bad luck" when every 1.8T made had bad coils. That's quite a streak of bad luck.....

altair4 · February 2003

I have a 1.8T with the H coils, and haven't had one go bad. I think it's unfair to say that every 1.8T has had a bad coil. I'm not saying that this isn't a widespread problem, because it is, just that your statement is not correct.

pkradd · February 2003

My 2001.5 Passat has not had any failures after nearly 21 months. The occurance is incredibly small considering the amount of cars with the 1.8T engine (and the others that used the coils). It's an unfortunate situation but it's being addressed now by VW, albeit a little late.

swschrad · February 2003

because it appears to be a production design issue. from articles posted, when read, sounds like the potting compound shrinks and cracks open in heat, allowing moisture to short the coils out. run long enough and hot enough, with those coils bolted to the back of the block, and you will have failures.

that's why the recall for replacement letter is the only thing VW could have done to restore confidence in the product. once all vehicles are shed of the old coils, the clock starts anew on a fresh clean world.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

Have you all seen this site? It's interesting. It monitors 152 coil failures and the circumstances surounding them.

http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/232444.phtml

It doesn't shed light so much on which percentage of VWs will exhibit coil failure but it does shed some light on the worst production dates, the dealer's success rate in fixing the problem and also seems to be the "safety" issue to rest.

One interesting fact is the relationship to cold weather I thought.

newcar31 · March 2003

Thanks swschrad. Are those of you who haven't had a coil failure yet not going to get coils replaced at VW under the recall?

pkradd · March 2003

If and when there's a recall I'll certainly get my coils changed even though they haven't failed. Better safe then sorry. I note the chart doesn't include my manufacture date of March 2001 (2001.5 Passat).

altair4 · March 2003

That's an interesting comment regarding the actual cause of the malfunction. I've read lots of articles on this and, at best, most people have drawn conclustions on their own as to the actual cause. Most simply describe the symptoms, without analysis of the actual defect.

What article definitively describes this? Would love to read it. Thanks!

pkradd: I'll be in line right behind you! Just because I haven't had a failure yet, doesn't mean I don't fear having one occur at an inopportune time.

PS: Mr Shiftright...do my eyes deceive me? You posted a link to, gasp!, another automotive website!! I got a lovely note from one of your cohorts explaining that I violated the usage agreement from Edmund's for doing the same thing on another thread on these boards! Hah!

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

Ah, busted. I just thought it was very important information. There are a few times when we do allow links to other forums strictly for the conveyance of important info that we can't provide. Host's call here. Sometimes "links to other forums" do get deleted because it is interpreted as an actual solicitation to post there regularly. See the distinction?

You are all on the honor system never to post there

swschrad · March 2003

>> "What happens when a coil pack goes bad  how do I know if I have it? The problem is reported to be caused by inadequate sealant which leaks and lets in moisture which in turn causes the coil pack to short out."

from http://clubb5.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=33587

and http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=42523

says

>> "Volkswagen of America Inc. and Audi of America Inc. last week said they are voluntarily recalling the cars because of the faulty coils. Sources say the German parts supplier had problems with the insulation material of the coils. If the plastic becomes brittle, spark plug failure can result."

it is possible for HV coils to fail because of gaps in the insulation material... RCA had a legendary series of tube color-TV sets in the late 1960s or early 1970s in which the flybacks got too hot, melted out their potting compound, and some caught fire. the only good flybacks for those sets were from Thordarson-Meissner. the other way HV coils fail is exposure to water or water vapor when it penetrates inadequate insulation. I had a friend who built a half-million-volt tesla coil in high school, and his glass-plate capacitors exploded all the time until he submerged them in oil. that's something siemens learned from X-ray transformers around the turn of the century, and it made their reputation.

dpbreenmd · March 2003

I recently lost my VW 2002 Passat to an engine fire. I recently had the coil pack replaced. The car was running well until 2 days ago. It started the same as the last time with the blinking engine light. After a few minutes it quit running while I was on the interstate. I pulled over and the engine burst into flame and the car was engulfed in a matter of minutes. Does anyone know of similar stories or reasons for this. The car had 14,000 mile as was not one year old yet.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

Well for one thing you'd need to have had leaking fuel somewhere.

Are injectors normally disturbed in the coil replacement process? Anyone know?

altair4 · March 2003

On another automotive website (which I can't mention by name unless Mr Shiftright wants to give me absolution), at least one member had a fire directly related to a coil pack. He provided pictures of the melted coil pack in his note. Another member (on this other site) is a fireman and related two fires to the coilpack issue. I'd guess that perhaps it wasn't the coil pack taht was replaced but one of the original ones that went bad (but only a guess).

A fire doesn't necessarily have to have leaking fuel as it's initial source. The coil packs have plastic components and are located under the plastic engine shroud and have high electrical voltage involved. Once you have an ignition and fire started, then a fuel line could be involved, as well, I guess. Check some other Passat-dedicated websites for additional info. I'd e-mail dpbreenmd directly, but he doesn't have an e-mail address posted.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

I'd pay more attention if professional accident investigators posted a report. These are just more of those typical anecdotal speculations by people fishing for answers, worried abourt re-currence (understandably!) or looking for a reason for a lawsuit. Coil packs will soon be blamed for backaches I'm sure.

I am in complete sympathy with anyone whose car catches fire (it is traumatic and life-threatening) but such speculations are just bad science and shouldn't be encouraged or emraced without healthy curiosity and skepticism IMO.

A professional fire investigator should be able to determine the cause of the fire, but these people are quite expensive to hire. We'll probably, ultimately, have to rely on government agencies for an answer, should there ever be anything beyond the random number of usual car fires that any brand of car will sustain.

Cars catch fire all the time. Ask your local Fire Department.

I can't see how the fusing system in the car would allow that to happen anyway, but I can see a fuel fire melting the coils and a good deal else.

altair4 · March 2003

1) I don't believe that the coilpacks are fused. It's part of the primary ignition system.
2) The photo that was posted on that "other" site clearly showed a melted coilpack. I'll post a link if you want to see it. Damage was completely localized to the coilpack area and, when replaced, the car ran normally (i.e., no fuel leaking).

Ah, here's the link...since it doesn't go to the actual posting, but to an image hosting site.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/pb8c249db7030c5408967- 6405ee066257/fcabe192.jpg

dpbreenmd · March 2003

I would be interested in other experience with coil pack fires. I have posted my email now with my profile. The fire is being investigated by the insurance company.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

Looks like the coil overheated. It looks like a slow flameless meltdown, very gradual heat buildup, since the plug-in is quite intact.

You can't burn a car down with a melted coil. You'd really need gasoline or insulation or some other flammable substance to fuel it. So this is why a thorough investigation is need to see if it's even possible....maybe it is, I'm really not in a position to know. It requires an expert.

That's for the photo...very interesting.

altair4 · March 2003

I'll admit that this one looks melted. Driver said it was smoking, he stopped the car (cutting further juice to the coil), and had a happy ending.

Let me posit this possibility:
1) Coil goes bad, overheats.
2) Overheating reaches ignition temperature of plastic on top of coil.
3) Top of coil is in close proximity to plastic engine shroud.
4) Shroud catches fire, enveloping other engine components, including fuel delivery system.
5) Car is toast.

But, other things can happen. I recently read a case where the fire department supositions that a mechanic left a rag on the engine, that it caught fire and caught other components, and "poof", car is gone.

I emailed dpbreenmd with some other info...it's up to him to pursue what he needs. Thanks.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

That's plausible enough certainly, except that the coil would fail almost certainly before any combustion and why would a driver keep driving?

What I'm getting at here is that if you drive say an overheated car engine it too can cause a fire, but you can't say that the burst radiator hose caused the fire. The driver caused the fire.

There's a point where owner responsibility enters into any disaster and this seems like one of them to me--at least PARTIALLY.

I just can't imagine a coil on fire actually working just fine and not alerting the driver long before combustion.

Can you?

altair4 · March 2003

Yep, I agree with you 100% - it apparently wasn't working 100% fine before.

I re-read the original post from the member whose car burned. He states, "The car was running well until 2 days ago. It started the same as the last time with the blinking engine light. After a few minutes it quit running while I was on the interstate. I pulled over and the engine burst into flame and the car was engulfed in a matter of minutes."

While I don't have my owner's manual right in front of me, I believe that it states you should immediately stop driving when the engine light flashes (I believe it's okay to continue to drive on a solid light), so that's an issue. The car apparently wasn't running right for two days (but we don't know what that means - engine light on for two days or just before the fire, rough idle, bucking like a bronco, who knows?).

In reference to your comment about the coilpack failing before catching fire...who knows? If by failure, you mean that it no longer was firing that cylinder's spark plug, probably. That's possibly what triggered the flashing MIL light. As one other member mentioned, the insulation fails, and the unit shorts out. This is not a fused or protected circuit since it's part of the primary ignition system, so I'm going to say that I believe it's possible that it was still shorting, creating heat. Do I believe that a coil is capable of getting hot enough to ignite? Yep, I do, since it's partially made of plastic. Do I believe that it's possible for a burning coil to ignite other parts and finally compromise the fuel system? Yep, I do - the fuel rail is not very far away from the coilpacks and the plastic engine shroud. Do I believe that under these circumstances, a car could be engulfed in fire? Yes, again.

Driver responsibility? Yes, it could be an issue if my recollection of the manual's statement about what to do when the MIL light flashes is correct. A shortcoming of the Passat is that the engine light flashes, but the MFA display doesn't say, "shut off the damn engine." I will tell you that the letter that VW sent out, dated 01/31/2003, says that in the event of a coil pack failure it is okay to drive the car to the dealer. However, my reading on this topic reveals that many coilpack failures have resulted in a flashing MIL light. So there's a conflict between what the letter from VWoA states and what's in the manual.

As you probably realize from being a moderator here, way too many people never read the owner's manual cover-to-cover. This member has a 2002 Passat. Even if he read the manual when it was new, it's possibly been more than 1.5 years since then. The letter is only a month old...see where I'm going with this?

Here's the text of the letter that owner's received:

Dear Volkswagen Customer:
We are writing to provide you with important information about your Volkswagen.

Through our monitoring of vehicles in the field, we have determined that some 2001 and 2002 Volkswagens equipped witht he 1.8t four-cylinder engine or the 2.8l VR6, and some 2002 Passats equipped with the W8 may experience a malfunction of an ignition coil. The 2001 and 2002 engines are equipped with cuch coils for the 4-cylinder engine, six coils in the 6-cylinder engine and eight coils in the 8-cylinder engine. Some owners have experienced a malfunction of one or more of these coils. If an ignition coil becomes inoperative, the engine and its electronic controls are designed to keep your vehicle running. Some deterioration in performance, however, can be expected. You can contine to drive with reducted power and should take your car to the nearest Volkswagen dealer for repair. If you do not feel comfortable driving with reduced power, you may call Volkswagen 24-hour roadside assistance at (800)411-6688 for towing to the nearest dealer.

Should you experience a malfunction, your Volkswagen dealer will be able to repair your car with an improved igintion coil. In order to minimize inconvenience to you, your Volkswagen dealer will offer alternative transportation to you at no cost.

We want to make it clear that your car may not exhibit this problem. However, if you have already experienced this malfunction and for some reason you had to pay to have it repaired, we are, of course, prepared to reimburse you. If this has been your experience, please contact us. We apologize for any inconvenience you may experience and we assure you that resolving this issue is the top priority for Volkswagen of American, Volkswagen AG and our Volkswagen dealers. If you desire any assistance, or have any questions, please contact us at (800) 822-8987 or vw.com click on (contact us).

In closing, you have my peronal apology for any inconvenience , and my thanks for your business.

Regards,
Frank Maguire
Vice President

This letter minimizes the problem, and I believe gives poor advice what to do when a coilpack fails.

I'm done with this topic. I wish "good luck" to Dr Breen. I hope that either his insurance or VW gets him in another car.

1blackgti · March 2003

I am having the coils replaced one at a time. What a pain! I also had a window regulator problem on both windows of my 2002 GTI. I recently sent VW a registered letter notifying them that I intend to declare my car a LEMON. The car has been out of service for 31 DAYS!

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

thanks altair that was very interesting. I'm a bit concerned that people would be encouraged to drive on a dead cylinder. How does the catalytic like all this? I wonder if THAT caught fire from being doused for two days with unburned fuel. It must have gotten pretty warm in there.

1black gti: Did you study the details of the Lemon Law in your state?

1blackgti · March 2003

I checked with the State Lemon Laws and I qualify because the GTI was out of service for over 30 days.

swschrad · March 2003

and so we know that answer, too. all my manuals from the 70s on have said don't drive on a bucking engine because it will overload the catalytic, possibly causing fire danger, certainly heavy expense.

so since VW says it's OK to drive the limping cars to the dealer, I would think they are assuming the liability for catalytic replacement, irregardless of the EPA warranty.

somebody needs to take it to court and get a pathfinder ruling.

pkradd · March 2003

... when it comes to VW. It seems that they are very confused in regards to the letter I (we) received concerning what one can and cannot due when a coil fails. Call a tow truck. It's on them (according to the letter).

altair4 · March 2003

apparently doesnt' like it! It's been written that, theoretically, the engine management system shuts down the fuel injector for the dead cylinder. But I guess there is a difference between the real and the theoretical.

And your comment regarding the cat as a source of combustion...could be very possible! Some have seen their converters actually glowing when in the failed coilpack mode.

rubicon52 · March 2003

I worked on a program in the 80's where we had a problem with defective tantalum capacitors causing fires on electronic backplanes. These were very small devices (about 0.25" square) that would develop a short, get very hot, melt, and sometimes cause a fire. We even made a movie of a defective cap getting hot and bursting into flame. I guess the thing that was actually burning was the backplane which I seem to remember was composed of layers of epoxy fiberglass coated with polyurethane. The picture that someone posted definitely looked like a coil melting due to excessive heat.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

Well, it's something that needs thorough investigation certainly. My idea of good diagnosis is always look for the simplest explanations first, which would be broken or leaking fuel and overheated cat, both of which are notoriously and well-known causes of engine fires.

Having excluded that, then we go on to electrical fires from any source, and further down the diagnostic chain to the coils, and further down the diagnostic chain to determine if coil failures and coil melting are even related or if they represent two separate types of defect occurring at different frequencies.

An expert should be able to determine the first source of the engine fire, or at least general locale.

pkradd · March 2003

An article in the New York Times, shows the company still being defensive about how they handled things. They seem to reluctantly agree they could have handled things better. Here's the article (you'll need to register):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/automobiles/16VOLK.html?pagewan- ted=3

yosmany · March 2003

My girlfriend's 2000 Jetta 1.8T tachometer needle bounces when the car is on and stopped. It causes the engine to idle poorly as if the timing was bad. Sometimes it goes so low that it seems that the car might shut off, but it never does. Could this be that coil problem everyone is talking about? I also heard that it could be the fuel filter. She has never changed it in 60K. She took it to that mechanic a while back without me and he said it had something to do with the injectors and charged her for a cleaning, yet it did not help. Could anyone help with this? Thank you.

Yosmany

Mr_Shiftright · March 2003

Sounds like it could be, maybe. She should have it checked. Did the check engine light go on?

VW Ignition Coil Problems?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles