Scion xB - Hip to be square

stever · August 2003

Toyota's efforts to attract Gen Y seems to be working:

Automakers target Generation Y (Star Tribune)

Steve, Host

muffin_man · August 2003

People are selling barely used Scions for well over sticker all over the web. Same idea.

northwest1 · August 2003

Any experiences out there with this option? Does it create a noticeable power difference? Worth the money? Thanks.

coolguyky7 · August 2003

The styling of the xB isn't that bad if you look at it at this angle:

Toyota did a much better job using a single styling element (square/rectangle shape) than Ford did on the 1996 Taurus (oval). The theming of the xB turned out much better, not to mention much more functionality.

jchan2 · August 2003

This car looks better than that 96' Taurus! By the way, some yellow paint wouldn't hurt? Wouldn't it?!

ateixeira · August 2003

average age of a Scion customer through July 13 was 39 -- the lowest in the industry by two years

That's a big, big plus. It's exactly what Toyota wanted. Elements are being snapped up by older folks, from what I've seen and read.

-juice

tcpip1 · August 2003

I have a question about how they determine a customer's age. Consider the following example:

A 50-year old father takes his 20 year old son to buy a Scion. The father signs the papers and pays for the car. The son drives the car off the lot with his father. Now, the buyer's age is 50, but the driver's age is 20. There is no info on the purchase papers about the 20 year old driver...

ateixeira · August 2003

True, but that's the case for every manufacturer. Scion is selling to a demographic 2 years younger than any other manufacturer, that probably means lots of 22-34 year olds, that can afford to buy one and put in their own name, are buying them. That's really the only way to lower that average.

-juice

tcpip1 · August 2003

True that the example can happen to any car manufacturers, but the probability of that happening is higher for those cars targeted for the Gen-Y (defined as those born between 1977 and 1994).

If I replace the above example saying a father taking his son to buy a Camry, you will probably think that I am smoking something funny.

coolguyky7 · August 2003

I saw a young guy today driving a red 2002+ Camry SE.

rooman · August 2003

This can't be right...
The rear leg room data from various sources are not consistent:

Scion's website:
xA 37.6
xB 31.6

Scion's Printed Brochure:
xA 37.6
xB 38.0

Edmunds:
xA 37.6
xB 31.6

Can someone, especially those in CA, clarify these? Thanks!

stever · August 2003

Brochures are harder to change once they head for the printer than web sites, and require a longer lead time with less time to correct errors. My money is on the web stats.

Steve, Host

mikus · August 2003

> If I replace the above example saying a father taking his son to buy a Camry, you will probably think that I am smoking something funny

So what? I drive Camry Gen4 V6, manual. Rare beast. Pretty good car, actually. I can see that higway officers might have fun drifting in Crown Vic, because I have fun with my Camry as well. It is easier to put in a slide a bigger car.

> Edmunds:
> xA 37.6
> xB 31.6

xA 31.6 Hmm...
xB 37.6 would be more believable.

ateixeira · August 2003

Does the seat adjust fore/aft? Maybe they measure minimum vs. maximum.

-juice

nippononly · August 2003

that while the average age of Scion's customers is 39, the MEDIAN age is 33, which means that 1/2 of all the customers are age 33 or under...so far Toyota seems to be hitting their target pretty closely.

ateixeira · August 2003

Yeah, let's not let a couple of geezers bust the curve. ;-)

-juice

nippononly · August 2003

coolguyky7 · August 2003

Will Scion be able keep a low customer base? That's probably going to be a really tough issue. Kids want the newest and neatest cars. Fortunately, I'd say the redesigns for these cars isn't that far off since they've been on sale for a few years now already in Japan.

ateixeira · August 2003

I think offering customization options will help keep young buyers coming. And prevent price creep, which seems to plague every vehicle out there.

-juice

jj411 · August 2003

Hey Texas Xb it sound like you live near Elpaso since you only drove 700 miles from Cali to Texas. I drove 1600 miles to Houston. My question is did you recieve your MSO yet for the Xb I bought my XB on the 11th of July and still have not recieve the MSO.

Thanks
John

texasxb · August 2003

jj411,
still waiting on the MSO. i'm keeping it registered in CA. i'll call the dealer if a no-show in the next 10 days. my plates can take up to 8 wks. Ridiculous.

northwest1 · August 2003

Still looking for some input from xB owners/shoppers...

Has anyone out there bought the cold air induction option on the xB or test driven an xB with and without to see a difference in performance (especially with the automatic trans)?

Also, on a different subject, is the "no haggle" pricing just MSRP + tax + license, or are dealers adding arbitrary documentary or administrative fees to help augment their bottom line?

Thanks.

odman · August 2003

Thanks Benevolence6gc, that was a good sales experience story. The JD Power figures for sales satisfaction just came out and the mainstream Japanese brands (Toyota/Honda) rank below average -- I guess with powerful brands that sell themselves, the dealers get arrogant. Hopefully with a different sales approach, Scion can generate positive scores in this area.

Your 50 year-old Mom and a 40 year old neighbor -- there goes the 20-something demographic Scion was just crowing about! Good luck with the car, let us know how it holds up over time.

nippononly · August 2003

I know many here object to it, but a great many people prefer the no-haggle approach to car-buying...this will serve Scion well, I think.

ateixeira · August 2003

I think Scion's approach is better, because the prices offer value to begin with.

Many Saturns are overpriced at MSRP. In fact, they just broke a long-standing policy and started offering rebates.

-juice

muffin_man · August 2003

congratulations, sounds fantastic. I'm a big fan of the car.

I wouldn't go as far as to say the Element is not a quality piece, but aside from shape, they are very different cars, and the scion is the one I would choose.

benevolence6gc · August 2003

My neighbor was considering an element but for a decently equipped one honda wanted around $21,000, so he saved nearly $6,000 with the xB.

northwest1 · August 2003

zen2003, what does the color "camouflage" look like? I did not see this color listed on the Scion website. Is this the beige/gold color I have seen in some of the early marketing photos? Or is it another color, perhaps a moss green? Thanks.

jchan2 · August 2003

probably would be a great car for anyone. Who wouldn't buy a car that was affordable, had low gas consumption, had a great buying experience, and was totally different?

chris777 · August 2003

How well does the air conditioning in the xb work in comparison to other cars? I read some review of it somewhere where they said the ac was inadequate. how do the owners feel about this?

I sometimes feel stifled in my y2k civic because it doesn't seem to get cool enough.
thats been one of my concerns with getting a wagon type vehicle, sure their is vastly more cargo room, but you rarely see the manufacturers compensate with cooling, or power additions over the sedan counterparts

and while I'm on the topic of cool, is the cold air intake worth bothering with 10 hp seems a bit bland, I lean toward the camp that thinks toyota should have put the corolla engine in the xb since it appears more fuel efficient, and boast much more power

also has anyone had a cruise control added by the toyota dealer , and if so was it covered under warranty?

mikus · August 2003

I was thinking what if one put, say, a Thule box on top of this car and would made a hole in front, and would stick a hockey club so it sticks out... Would people think it is kind of a infantry transporter?

Anyway, my coworker (a woman in her... er... 30-ies) just bought an Element. They looked at xB but rejected it mostly because of very low ride. Hmm... I would not say that Element is sitting high for an SUV, but it is higher than xB. And she got Element in green too. Camouflage, people, it is all about war.

benevolence6gc · August 2003

the AC works fine, no problems in that department. And my mom is also curious as to whether the CAI is worth 10hp or not.

zen2003 · August 2003

Just a couple of other points that I thought might benefit future buyers...
#1--Trade-in allowance is very tight...which is understandable because of the no-haggle policy and the low pricing. I had mentioned that we had an Echo--which we had thought of tradin-in...but we decided to sell it on our own...again it is understandable---you can't have everything...after we left out the trade--it was a breeze.
#2--the dealerships are offering 17 & 18 inch wheel/tire combos which make the vehicle look really cool---but it will affect your warranty...we chose to not do this at this time...but we will install the tower brace/CAI--at the dealership because these ARE covered in the warranty..(we could also get these cheaper--in the aftermarket---but aftermarket performance items--MAY affect the warranty.
#3--when purchasing insurance...we were happy to know that the xb is classified as a ``small wagon''--which made our rates very reasonable...
#4--I had mentioned the lack of quality feeling in the Element...I think part of the reason is that the interior is supposedly ``ready to be hosed down'' for active lifesyles---but how many owners will hose down a vehicle and risk ruining their audio speakers???...and also the lack of quality ...I felt was related to the Element being built in America...just my opinion...
I don't know where the xb is built...but it feels and looks very well-put together...
#5--this may or may not be a negative...but a little nitpick is that the fuel tank is only 11.9 gal...so around town..you will have to gas up frequently..(but it won't take a lot of cash to fill up...:)
hope this is useful...we are enjoying our new box...we seem to be endeared to this vehicle ..in record time..

jchan2 · August 2003

The xB is produced in Japan, as is the xA.

s852 · August 2003

You cannot really hose out the interior of the Element. Honda never said you could. They say you can wipe it out with damp rags or mop.
Automotive magazine writers just assumed you could hose it out because the the floor isn't carpeted. They have spread misinformation by frequently adding this comment about hosing the interior out to the articles they write about the Element.
There no drain holes and water will splash up and leak down into places it shouldn't if you actually spray a hose inside.
I like the xB, but it is so small that you can't carry bikes inside.
Maybe I could deal with it with a trailer hitch bike mount. Carrying bikes on the roof of an xB would be a pain because you would have to stop to remove them before you could drive into a garage or covered carport.

muffin_man · August 2003

How did they say the larger wheels and tires affect the warranty?

zen2003 · August 2003

The warranty is affected just like any other car's warranty...if you read the owner's manual it will always say that only original size tires/wheels should be used when replacing tires/wheels..or you may run the risk of improper handling,altering the speedometer accuracy,braking,handling, etc,...blah,blah...
we may still change to a plus one or two tire /wheel fitment but we are aware that it could cause headaches..there is always a tradeoff...larger wheels look so cool...but ride comfort suffers..etc.
the xb's we have seen altered looked really sharp and they were sporting 18's and even 19's...
hmmmm...on the other hand...if you go to a reputable tire/wheel shop ..and the xb is built by Toyota...so there should not be any reliability issues...you could probably risk owning an xb AND cool looking wheels---with a less than FULL warranty...just a thought...

muffin_man · August 2003

But what part of the car would no longer be affected by warranty? Shocks and springs? They would have to prove that the larger wheel/tire combo caused damage, and I think that would be difficult.

zen2003 · August 2003

I guess that's the whole point...if something does go wrong...do you really want to HAVE to PROVE that you should be covered? Say you have some kind of mechanical problem and the dealership mechanic sees you drive in with your 18'' wheels...he will automatically assume you altered the vehicle in other ways and may even TRY to find a reason NOT to fix your car under warranty...maybe I am paranoid...but it happens...

muffin_man · August 2003

But what sort of mechanical problem could the wheels cause? Assuming you altered your vehicle in other ways doesn't work, because he can clearly see whether you have or have not.

I have never heard of a dealership denying any sort of warranty coverage based on upgraded wheels, but I suppose you're right, anything can happen.

ateixeira · August 2003

If you go to much bigger wheels, that affects unsprung weight and certainly would void any coverage of parts related to your suspension, maybe even the steering.

But...those rarely fail. Tires might, and the rims themselves might get bent by a pothole, those are far more likely.

Try to find a mod-friendly dealer. Heck, some will install the parts for you.

-juice

nippononly · August 2003

bushings and wheel bearings, taking the brunt of super-over-size rims and tires. If any of those, or anything in the suspension and steering, were to fail, they might have a case for denying warranty coverage.

zen2003 · August 2003

Just a few things that I have mentally noted in our short time owning the xb...
one way Toyota is able to give such great value is that there is only ONE interior scheme...one for both xa and xb...the dark/charcoal cloth interior...luckily for us ,this interior is very,very attractive. It is sporty--yet fairly elegant. I know there are some people out there who will complain and yes,there are people out there who will want to look through six or seven carpet swatches and/or several options like sunroof,moonroof,two-door,four-door,hatchback,....etc... and these people will be disappointed...----BUT---these are the good days,the early days---BEFORE- the prices start creeping into the high teens...then low twenties....mid-twenties...
there are three different (plastic) wheel COVERS to choose from period. (an an optional alloy wheel--though not very attractive)...BUT there is the 4 wheel ABS,Sport tuned suspension,stability control-with traction control and skid control,brake assist,A/C standard,sport seats,pwr doors/locks,remote keyless entry (on xb) etc...
there is only one (small) engine choice---but it is a good one .
I know I am biased.being a new owner and getting stopped and queried every day, but we all have seen car companies who lose their focus tryin to please everyone and their small ,lightweight ,sport coupe/hatch/box...becomes a bloated,overweight,overpriced,overrated ....SUV...: )

purduealum91 · August 2003

I am currently driving a wonderful VW TDI Golf that I purchased 2 years ago. On a recent trip to NJ, I avg 50 mpg cruising at 70-80mph w/AC on! I would love to see a diesel in one of these.

zen2003 · August 2003

I rest my case....

ateixeira · August 2003

Diesels will begin to trickel into the US when the low sulfur fuels from Europe start to arrive. I imagine a diesel xB is pretty far off, next generation at least.

I wonder if these will get diesel engines for Europe, there it's pretty much a requirement for a small car.

-juice

petl · August 2003

You will never see a Toyota diesel in North America. Particularly with the progress they are making with hybrid vehicles. Have you not seen the specs on the new Prius? On looks and practicality alone it's a winner. This technology will trickle down into every Toyota vehicle in the future (upward into Lexus... specifically the RX330 in 2005). I hope in time the Scion will make its way up to Canada.

moparbad · August 2003

My friend has a Landcruiser with diesel and also a 83 4WD Toyota pickup with diesel. Both are diesel from factory and not conversions. My cousin used to own a Corolla diesel. Toyota sells diesel HiLux (Tacoma) nearly everywhere except North America. Toyota believes in diesel, ignorant Americans don't. Funny that the only state where Scions are sold prohibits the sale of diesels starting in 2004 and allows the sale of 12 mpg SUVS and trucks.
I'm impatient to see Scions in my area.

petl · August 2003

I see older models on occasion as well. What I should have said was I don't believe Toyota will manufacture diesel vehicles for future sales in North America. The demand has not been there for quite some time (to my knowledge not too many have been offered or sold in the last ten years or so).

At present too much money is being spent on hybrid technology (with some degree of success). It appears to be the way of the future. It drastically improves gas mileage and reduces harmful emissions (the new Prius will have the best fuel rating of any midsize car sold in North America and it will produce nearly 90% less tailpipe pollutants than a conventional internal combustion engine). All this without sacrificing on overall driving performance.

In time, this technology will find its way into many vehicles... maybe even Scions.

s852 · August 2003

There will probably be no xB diesel anytime soon. A hybrid might be more likely except hybrids add so much cost and the Scions are supposed to be low cost brand designed for young people buying their first new car.
However, when the cleaner-burning diesels come out, I think Toyota could easily make some diesel Tundra's and Sequoias to bring their fuel economy up out of the teens without losing torque or adding as much cost as a hybrid engine.

Scion xB - Hip to be square

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