New S40/V50

volvomax · May 2004

For the record, the S40 will be available with a manual gearbox.
Sometime this month we will receive definitive ordering information, as well as a time frame for delivery.
Same holds for the V50, we will know this month whatwe can and can't order.

benjamins · May 2004

Is the Mazda more sporty or does it feel more sporty? I have the feeling that Volvos are sportier than they feel. As for ride quality, in most of the mags, the s60, s80, v70, are often coming up tops in ride. In the recent R&T, although the s80 finished last, it did so in subjective handling courses, but it finished first in ride with a perfect score, ahead of the Mercedes E, BMW 5, Jaguar XJ, Audi A6, and others including the Caddy CTS, which finished first overall. In other comparison tests, lately, Volvo has done well in ride comfort, and finished tops quite a few times, even in British mags.

Here's what I think of ride. There's ride comfort and ride composure. I think Mercedes and BMW excel at ride composure, getting the geometry right and links, and then using firmish bushings to locate things. Volvo's approach is mostly bushings, using a combination of soft and firm bushings and varying their lengths to include a certain amount of isolation to reduce impact harshness from rough surfaces. So, this filtered out impact harshness creating a feeling of comfort, along with the seats, that is a different variety than Mercedes and BMW, that emphasize acceptable impact harshness but keeping the wheels to the road and body motions in check.

So ride quality has to do with how an individual intreprets degrees of feedback from rough surfaces with body composure. The enthusiast favors body composure, the cruisers favor filtered out bumps, most buyers are inbetween, favoring good control with rounded off impact of bumps. And I think most Japanese and some of the Europeans, including Audi to some degree, Jaguar, Volvo, spend more time with the rubber. However, I think Jag and Honda and others spend more time with the geometry and located control arms than Volvo which affords the cars a more involving feel. But, Volvos limits aren't that far away, it is the perceived sharpness of the car, how the body reacts with the inputs from the driver that also feels filtered. Volvo needs to work at getting more direct with the inputs of the driver being involved with feedback through the controls and the feel of such while keeping their streak of rather supple riding automobiles. They have a certain numbness and indifference that enthusiasts don't like. I felt that with the s40s that I drove last week and other Volvos.

creakid1 · May 2004

does feel vaguely lack of details, but the overall weighing-change feels natural, unlike TSX's strong self-centering action that's always in effect to dull the weighing change. I haven't evaluated the S40's at-the-limit steering feel 'cause my drive event, despite sliding many times both front & rear tires, was on the wet track. But even in the wet, the steering didn't feel completely numb, otherwise I would be disconcerting & started screaming.

"Is the Mazda more sporty or does it feel more sporty?"

Both. The firmer-bushings Mazdza3 has oversteer available all the time. It's quicker steering, albeit a little too light & lacks meatiness, is still informative. The suspension is, of course, tuned at the similar firmness as the S40 sport.

Some people only look for the superficial harshness in ride comfort. I tend to overlook that & found the Peugeot 605 offering a supreme ride that's hardly affected by even "black holes"!

The Mazda3 is neither harsh-free nor has a deep ride of a Mercedes, newer BMW or old Peugeot. Plus the rebound is a little too quick for relaxing comfort.

A more upscale/comfortable car than the Mazda3 would be the Mazda6, new S40...

I believe the '05 S40 will come w/ heavy rebate, 'cause when comes to ride/handling, quietness & interior room/appointment, the '05 Jetta V is every bit as competitive. It even has the magical Focus-type rear suspension just like the new S40. & the next '06 Passat, which is a supersized Jetta V, is so roomy you might as well compare it to cars like the Mazda6, TL or roomier cars such as the Accord.

benjamins · May 2004

"I believe the '05 S40 will come w/ heavy rebate, 'cause when comes to ride/handling, quietness & interior room/appointment, the '05 Jetta V is every bit as competitive. It even has the magical Focus-type rear suspension just like the new S40. & the next '06 Passat, which is a supersized Jetta V, is so roomy you might as well compare it to cars like the Mazda6, TL or roomier cars such as the Accord."

The Jetta may get an interior upgrade as well, and it already has a nice interior, but fails in interior space. The Passat is already a roomy car, but feels more a quality family car, a larger car with less sporty appeal. But, there may be more competition in the form of the BMW 1 and 2 and the Mercedes A cars, both compact and sporty and maybe price competitive with the s40/v50. Volvo has the car in the s40, but may need to do some tweaks to it as well as checking the price. Volvo seems to be marketing to a youthful audience, price point as well as value are important.

creakid1 · May 2004

"The Jetta may get an interior upgrade as well, and it already has a nice interior, but fails in interior space."

The new S40 also fails in interior space. That's something you won't find in the Mazda3 hatch, which has both rear headroom & legroom even the TSX can't match.

The new Golf V is already a little roomier than the current Jetta IV, & the new Jetta V is suppose to be half-a-size larger(possibly w/ longer wheelbase) than the Golf V.

"The Passat is already a roomy car, but feels more a quality family car, a larger car with less sporty appeal."

The Passat, like the A4, is available w/ sport suspension, but not in America. So it has the potential to be a mid-size sport sedan like the A6. Just like the Mazda6, TL & 5-series, they are sport sedans w/ adult-size back seat.

"But, there may be more competition in the form of the BMW 1 and 2 and the Mercedes A cars, both compact and sporty and maybe price competitive with the s40/v50."

Only the little sporty Beemer coupe's coming to America, most likely only w/ sport suspension, which is a std feature in all 3-series coupes. But it's so little there's no room in the back, not even for a compact spare tire!

The Mercedes A-class isn't sporty, & more like sport utility. It's like a tiny minivan not far from a '90 Festiva based on the Mazda 121, although the new one is longer & has lower center-of-gravity than before. There's suppose to be a 3-roll-seating version of it called the B-class, which should compete w/ the upcoming sporty-handling Mazda4 minivan also based on the S40/V50.

cotmc · May 2004

Max: Please let us know when you hear more info regarding the ordering and availability of the manual gearbox. An old friend will be flying out here to AZ at the end of August to buy my BMW, and I've started shopping for a new safe, sporty sedan. I'm definitely warming up to the idea of making an '05 S40 T5 6sp my next commuter, just as long as I can order it and take delivery before mid-September.

Also, are you with either Powell or North Scottsdale Volvo?

cotmc · May 2004

"The new S40 also fails in interior space."

creakid1: Please don't get me wrong. I happen to agree with many of your conclusions. I just wanted to query you on this particular statement. Wouldn't you say the S40 interior, from the perspective of passenger space, is on par with the 3-series sedan, the TSX, and the Saab 9-3?

My own $.02 (off-topic): No matter how much larger and nicer VW builds the next generation Jetta, I would avoid it at nearly all costs. VW's initial reliability for these small cars is among the worst, and the problems just continue with age.

creakid1 · May 2004

"Wouldn't you say the S40 interior, from the perspective of passenger space, is on par with the 3-series sedan, the TSX, and the Saab 9-3?"

The rwd 3-series, yes. But, in America, only the T-5 w/ Premium Package allows the front passenger seat to be tilted & raised in order to allow the rear leg room "breath-able". The S60 has multiple-adjustable passenger seat std!

The TSX, no. Especially the rear headroom.

I forgot how roomy the 9-3 is.

"My own $.02 (off-topic): No matter how much larger and nicer VW builds the next generation Jetta, I would avoid it at nearly all costs."

I heard VW decided to built the Jetta/Bora V only in Mexico & not in Germany no more, so they might concentrate on improving the Mexican factory.

qbrozen · May 2004

Frankly, I don't care what wording Volvo chooses to use. When the main commercial for the S40 is showing it whipping around a racetrack in a video game, they are marketing it as a "sport" sedan.

robr2 · May 2004

"Frankly, I don't care what wording Volvo chooses to use. When the main commercial for the S40 is showing it whipping around a racetrack in a video game, they are marketing it as a "sport" sedan."

That also aims it at a younger audience - not many 40 YO+ playing GT. Don't forget that the WRX and Lancer were well known by the youth in North America long before they were sold here. The only other ad I've seen was youth oriented as well. It had an S40 in a very hip outside locale with a voice over that possesed a "rap" like quality and Volvo was pronounced "VOVO".

volvomax · May 2004

As soon as I have order info I'll post it.
BTW I'm w/ Powell

lev_berkovich · May 2004

I thought that the current discussion is way above of the level of the regular consumer, who watches the "cool" commercial and runs to the dealership to buy the "sport" car, just because that commercial "says so".

Volvo hopes that that would be the case, but is much more cautious in their printed materials. And also, next time when you see the "video game" commercial, pay attention to the disclaimers.

What was curious to me is the fact that people seriously discuss the reasons for the 2.4 without sport package being not sporty enough. It was not meant to be.

qbrozen · May 2004

That's fine, but when you said
Volvo does not promote S40 as a "sport" sedan, or at least I could not find such direct statement in any of the Volvo generated marketing materials.
Yes, they say, it's a car with the attitude, but that implies the T5 engine.
As far as I understand, their set of characteristics goes in the following sequence - design, safety, excitement (with T5).

I just felt the need to point out that they are certainly promoting it as a sport sedan with a concentration on excitement in that commercial (and they even point out, after the wreck, that "by the way, its safe, too.")

lev_berkovich · May 2004

Rob,
Yes they do, there is no any doubts about this, but not for the base version.
I see your point, as, I hope you see mine.

ateixeira · May 2004

Saab 9-3 is bigger, at least S60 sized. The S40 will compete with the 9-2x that is arriving now.

-juice

qbrozen · May 2004

oh, of course. the 2.4 non-sport is just that - non-sport.

volvomax · May 2004

The point Volvo is trying to make is that this car is more "fun" than prior Volvo's.
For those who still equate Volvo w/ the 240, the S40 will be a pleasant surprise.
Also there is a difference between a "sporty" car and a sports car.

lev_berkovich · May 2004

Thanks, Max.
Somehow, to my great satisfaction, I found us more and more close in our opinions.
The only thing that I am still waiting for, it's an agreement that I have bought my OSD XC90 from VCNA

:-))

qbrozen · May 2004

let's not even get into what's a "sportscar". Yikes! If you've missed those threads in the past, consider yourself lucky!

Just to be clear, you have no argument from me: the S40 is NOT a sportscar.

benjamins · May 2004

Definitely. The s40 brochure is full of young models, I don't think any of them are over 30 and most seem to be college aged kids.

s40 feels sportier than s60 but retains some of the "big car" feel.

mazda6s · May 2004

but getting a car with one will be a different matter. Dealers won't stock them, so you'll have to order one, wait 6 months, and pay full MSRP.

stickguy · May 2004

overseas delivery is the way to go if you want something that will be especially rare. You get it exactly how you want it, and save a good chunk of change. Not to mention the subsidized vacation.

volvomax · May 2004

The OSD people will have to re-write their purchase forms, the ones that say Volvo Car International

lev_berkovich · May 2004

Max,
I know what you are referring to. But that is the internal paperwork, and it can have any letter head.

I am working in the similar environment, where the service organization is the private company, held by the public corporation. So a lot of the internal staff goes with the Corporate letterhead, however, this is the private service organization the faces the customer.
My point was that the customer receives the Order Confirmation and all the correspondence from the VCNA, and by the common law that indicates the legal agreement.

In case of the legal problems the VCNA will be first in line for the claim.

volvomax · May 2004

We can now order 2005 manual S40's.
According to the system delivery would be in Sept.

stickguy · May 2004

how about stick V50s? And, are there restictions on the models?

is a V50 T-5 non-sport FWD 6 speed doable?

carman123 · May 2004

Is an S40 T5 manual with AWD and standard suspension possible? If I can get a 2005 configured like this by November, I would be very happy. Does anyone know how much weight the AWD adds? Any fuel economy numbers available for AWD yet?

avolvofan · May 2004

Any update on when the AWD orders can be processed?

Carman123, figure on around 171 lbs additional for the AWD option based on the differences between the S60 2.5T (at 3,400 lbs) and S60 2.5T AWD (at 3,571 lbs). The AWD system on the S60 (Haldex) is the same as what will be on the S40.

jchan2 · May 2004

Has Volvo set a base price for The V50 yet?

volvomax · May 2004

stickguy,jchan
we don't have any V50 info yet.
carman
An S40 T5 AWD standard suspension should be doable.
AWD orders can't be taken yet.
As soon as I know more i'll post it.

ateixeira · May 2004

I drove the S60 and S60 AWD back to back and IMO the Haldex system is great. It does wonders for traction and to reduce understeer.

-juice

Kirstie_H · May 2004

welcome, but we don't allow salespeople to basically solicit on these boards. It's not volvomax's fault, and he's done nothing wrong, but according to our terms of use he can't really respond. The best thing to do is wait for him to contact you via e-mail.

However, once that's happened you should delete your own post. Posting your e-mail on a public bulletin board exposes you to a whole new load of spam and other unsolicited communication.

adinkra · May 2004

Does anyone have an idea when the S40 T5 with AWD & 6spd will get to the US? One saleman told me next year.

volvomax · May 2004

The order info is in the system now.
I just ordered 2 T5 AWD's. One auto, one manual.

Now, according to the computer these cars will arrive by September. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the dealers will have them.
If Volvo's certification paperwork isn't complete(and this has happened before) the cars can't leave the port. Also, Volvo could hold the 05's in port if there are too many 04's still at the dealers.
I will try to get some kind of firm idea as to when the cars will really be here.

stickguy · May 2004

How are the S40s selling overall? Saw an ad today in the paper touting a lease deal ($269/42 with $999 down for a 2.41ASR). Are they moving pretty well in your area?

volvomax · May 2004

Are doing ok.
Inventories are low and Volvo did not make some features like the AWD and manual trannies available from the outset.
Also, alot of regular consumers don't know that the car is different from the previous S40.
The S60 is stealing some sales as well.

benjamins · May 2004

"Also, alot of regular consumers don't know that the car is different from the previous S40.
The S60 is stealing some sales as well."

That's strange. Volvos been making it pretty visible and advertising it enough. And it certainly looks different from the last s40. s60 may appeal to some regular customer because of its more comfy and familiar interior and feeling of Volvo heft.

avolvofan · May 2004

In addition to the traction and understeer benefits, the Haldex AWD is integrated with DSTC and will cut out the instant DSTC engages. Further, the Haldex AWD eliminates the torque steer that occurs with the non-AWD cars (due to different length driveshafts).

larsca · May 2004

I don't get all the talk about torque steer. I drove the T5 and I couldn't feel it. In the S60 T5 I could sense it, but it was fairly slight (more power, that's why).

Now, have you ever driven a Saab 900 Aero (MY2000 or so)? Talk about torque steer! I was in third gear, punched it and did an unplanned lane change.

I really don't get the talk about torque steer on the S40s. But maybe that's just me.

I did hear somewhere that MY2005 will see the exhaust pipes be straightened out instead of pointing down the way they do now. I hope that's true because the way they are now I can't help but thinking the S40, from the rear, looks a little like a dog going about his business... Just my opinion, that's all.

volvomax · May 2004

You'd be amazed at the number of people that haven't seen the ads!

Also, The lease package on the S60 is more aggressive.

avolvofan · May 2004

Yes, with more power, torque steer becomes more evident. If you are happy with the power of the S40 T5, then torque steer is nothing to worry about. However, if you plan on enhancing the power of the S40 T5, then torque steer is something to consider. The Haldex AWD removes torque steer from the equation. (In addition to the other benefits of the Haldex AWD.)

larsca · May 2004

I get you. Actually, I have been reading a lot in this and the swedespeed forums about people modding their cars. I never realized it was so widespread. I'd be cautious about modding my car since inevitably it must effect the wear and tear?

creakid1 · May 2004

"Also, alot of regular consumers don't know that the car is different from the previous S40.
The S60 is stealing some sales as well."

That's strange. Volvos been making it pretty visible and advertising it enough. And it certainly looks different from the last s40.

Even for someone like me, it took more than a year to bother taking a look at the new 850, & boy, I was surprised that everthing except the ride comfort amazed me. That's why I've been curious & having high expectation for the new S40. As for the average people? I doubt if I can convince them that this expensive little new S40 is very un-S40, not even very un-Volvo except the crashworthness.

I could try to convince that neither the typical Volvo's nor the BMW 3-series got the highest safety rating from CR due to lack of either high avoidance performance or high crash-test results. But the new S40 might ace it due to S80-like crash safety w/ German-car-like nimbleness.

avolvofan · May 2004

It depends on how far you go down the modifications path. The IPD/TME ECU upgrade is a fairly conservative upgrade. A number of owners who have done the IPD/TME ECU upgrade have reported in excess of 100,000 miles engine life with the upgrade. Conversely, owners who have gone the route of adding higher pressure and throughput turbochargers and more radical ECUs have generally not seen 50,000 miles for their efforts (less if the driving style has been aggressive - which it usually is with those modifications).

Other popular modifications which do not generally affect the lifespan of the vehicle:

- Braided stainless steel brake lines (improve braking response by eliminating any softening in the factory brake lines at the wheels);
- Aftermarket shock absorbers (improve ride - at 50,000 miles in my 850 Trubo, I replaced the original shocks with Bilsteins and the ride improvement was amazing...);
- Skid pan under the engine/transmission (protect against road debris);
- Springs to lower the ride height in conjunction with larger anti-sway bars (improve cornering response);
- Larger brake rotors with 4 piston calipers and improved brake pads (shorten stopping distance and reduce fading under continuous hard braking); and
- Larger tire/wheel combinations (change the cornering response).

All of the above will change the original factory performance parameters of the car. In general, the suspension modifications will result in a firmer ride. Sometimes a firmer ride is a negative improvement; in such a circumstance, no modifications should be made to the suspension.

My personal opinion is that you are going to see a whole range of aftermarket solutions available for the second generation S40. The second generation S40 is such a great baseline car; it gives the enthusiast so much to work with if they chose. (Unlike the S60 with its bloated turning circle (same goes for the S80...).) Don't get me wrong, I like the S60 (I have owned an S60 AWD since 2002); it is just that a 39 foot (42 foot for the R)turning circle doesn't leave much room for improvement. Now, the second generation S40, with its 34.9 foot turning circle (which by the way, beats the MINI's turning circle with its smaller wheelbase...), gives a much better point of departure for enhancements.

creakid1 · May 2004

creakid1 · May 2004

"Aftermarket shock absorbers (improve ride - at 50,000 miles in my 850 Trubo, I replaced the original shocks with Bilsteins and the ride improvement was amazing...)"

I remember the 850, both turbo & non-turbo, had horrible shock tuning & oscillates badly over every ripple of the road.

So tell us in detail, do the Bilsteins provide a slower rebound? Or softer compression as well?

jchan2 · May 2004

volvomax, how many old 2004 (Mitsubishi Carisma based) S40's do you still have?

volvomax · May 2004

We have 0 S40's and 5 V40's left.

avolvofan · May 2004

Regarding the MINI's turning circle, I thought I said that the MINI with a smaller wheelbase had a (slightly) larger turning circle than the S40.

The Bilstein shocks provided both a slower rebound as well as a slightly softer compression.

To truly appreciate what the Bilstein shock absorbers do for the ride quality, you have to make back-to-back comparisons. Drive one car (850 in this instance) with stock shocks and 50,000 miles. Then drive the same car with the Bilstein shock absorbers (nothing else was changed at the time). It is a night and day experience. Out of curiousity, I wonder how much different things would have been if I had replaced the shocks when the car was new.

benjamins · May 2004

I think the 850 non turbo had good tuning, it's the turbo version that Volvo made a mess of. It's the same in the s70. The 850 is also sensitive to bad bushings and ball joints, those need replacing early on. It's interesting that just changing to Bilsteins could make the ride that much beter if the other components are worn.

But, you know, you went from shocks with 50,000 miles to shocks that are new. What would the car ride like with Tokinos? or stock shocks that are new. I heard that 850s and s70s are wonderful with Bilstiens but 960s are best with Volvo's stock shocks. Bilsteins also good on 740s and 760s. What are the stock shocks now on Volvos? Do they use Boge? Bilsteins? Some Volvo branded versions of one of these?

Regarding turning circles the big Volvos, the 240s and 700 cars turned around in 32 feet. That's a tight turning circle especially considering the size of the cars. That was a wonderful Volvo strength at one time. Now they've gone the opposite direction, totally the wrong way. What makes the turning circle so damned wide on the s60-s80? And it isn't just FWD, the 850 turned around in 33-35 feet.

New S40/V50

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