Lexus RX 330

djocks · March 2003

getting into the SUV game here and have only driven my father's 2000 Lexus RX300. I am going to lease this for my wife. She puts on about 10K a year and because of work, half can be written off.

Here is where I need help.
The comparison includes:
1. Mercedez ML320
2. Lexus RX300
3. Acura MDX
4. Nissan Murano
6. Infiniti FX35
7. VW touregg
8. BMW X5 3.0

Here are the factors important for her:
1. Easy to drive
2. appeal (she loves the interior of the fx and the exterior of the Jeep GC)
3. No need for a third seat, just a little extra storage
4. leasing programs (residuals, price, maintenance)
5. Safety (no need for off road capabilities)
6. The standard 6 cyl. engines in all of these are plenty

What should be my first move?

wmquan · March 2003

I think the current discussion started because I asked if the new RX330 has actually dropped the VC in favor of the ML/Sequoia type AWD system.

Please consider that a key aspect of productive debate is to focus on the original assertion, and not shift it to suit one's conveniences.

The original point being debated is quite simple, and where my original post started.

Infiniti obviously knows FWD or FWD torque bias is hazardous.

Note in the above: "FWD or torque bias is hazardous." It does not qualify it to be "less safe" or "more hazardous" or what specific conditions exist.

During this debate, I've stayed faithful to debating that original point. However, that has not been the case otherwise; the responses have varied from "is hazardous" to "less safe" to "more hazardous."

I can invent any number of scenarios where FWD may prove hazardous. The same way where I can invent any number of scenarios where RWD is hazardous. I can also invent scenarios where any drive system is hazardous. The bottom line is, the original assertion just made the blanket statement that "FWD or FWD torque bias is hazardous." Something which credible autojournalists and manufacturers do not state.

Saying that the system is "hazardous" without applying appropriate contextual qualification is, frankly, irresponsible. Certainly not credible.

Trying to continue a debate by altering the original assertion and "making up" scenarios to suit those altered assertions is also not debate. Especially when credible, supporting third-party evidence has been repeatedly requested and none given. Certainly is a discredit to the debater. It provides the appearance that the debater, aware that the argument is a losing one, tries to alter the game and resorts to spilling useless rhetoric.

At that point, a debate is no longer practical not desired. Never mind that there are countless sources that say that FWD is good for snow driving, and that RWD has some hazards in snow driving as well. Never mind that in Sweden, FWD vehicles predominate (e.g. Volvos, Saabs) and do quite well in the harsher climate there, thank you. Never mind that the marketplace is saturated with FWD and FWD-biased vehicles and yet there is not a tremendous revelation that they "are hazardous." And, please, never mind that there has been no credible, third-party supporting information provided, without the application of personal bias.

Sadly, the debate was over a long time ago. I will not continue it in this forum. Thank you for your original one or two responses that were at least somewhat coherent.

Steve:

So "AWD, FWD, RWD Wagons - Which is the Best?" is the place to make it so? Thanks.

wwest · March 2003

This sorta comes under the heading of why not stay home and be warm and cosy by the fireplace if you suspect adverse roadbed conditions might arise.

Roadbed conditions aren't always as predictable as one might wish. I might even point out that the performance of FWD (and 4WD/AWD)in adverse conditions often leads the driver to become over-confident.

This is not really a "creditable" statement but I have come to believe that RWD is less hazardous because it "warns" you sooner about adverse roadbed conditions. It isn't as adverse roadbed "capable" and so you're less likely to drive it into the twilight zone.

Then there is the mooretorque "rule".

"The better your 4Wd/AWD is the deeper into the muddy woods you get before becoming stuck".

I think the same rule applies to the FWD being better, more capable, than RWD.

But, I would add that during our snowstorm of 12/18/90 it was predominantly FWD vehicles that I saw scattered all over SR520. Of course you could say that was because FWD is the predominant vehicle out there on the road today.

My 85 Jeep did fine in part-time 4WD mode and with snowchains on all four.

stever · March 2003

There, or the 4WD/AWD one. Pretty dead horse in here, and no one has even started parsing the many different flavors of 4WD/AWD yet.

And take Willard with you :-)

Steve, Host

wmquan · March 2003

;-)

regnideir · March 2003

I've been reading the various SUV boards here for a while. Anytime there is a question about the drive train system WWEST pops up with the dangers of FWD bias AWD and then plugs the town and country. Stop beating your dead horse. I come to the RX330 board to read about the car not to be given an erroneous lesson in vehicle dynamics.

Please Steve keep them on subject.

wwest · March 2003

If some of you think I have been unduly championing the T&C then I'll try and correct that here.

I thought my "plugging" of the T&C was strictly limited to the comparison of the T&C AWD system (which is quite SEVERELY FWD torque biased) and the RX/HL AWD system.

At the top end price wise you might pay 35k for a T&C and unless you really, REALLY need stellar AWD performance it simply isn't worth that kind of money.

Not to take undue credit, but have many of you now noticed that according to the early press releases the new RX330 will have a completely different AWD system, dropping the always "flaccid" Viscous clutch/coupling system in favor of an electronic AWD system which with proper design could react almost instantaneously to (ANY) wheel slippage, except for all four simultaneously, of course.

amontgom · March 2003

I just placed an order for a RX330 at my dealer in Northern Virginia, and the option packages are limited to six choices. (Special orders are available, but they take four months for delivery.) Since I wanted Nav, I was limited to only three. Here's what I ordered:

PT - Premium Package Plus (leather, illumination entry, power tilt steering, moonroof)
PL - Power Back Door
HL - HIDs
DC - 6-CD In-Dash Changer
DR - Roof Rails/Rack
WU - Wood and Leather Steering Wheel
NV - Navigation System with Rear Camera
HH - Two Level Heated Seats & Rain Sensing Wipers
FT - 18" Alloy Wheels, Full Spare

Price = Approximately $42k -- nothing firm yet, but less than a similarly equipped 2003 model

This package accounts for 17% of their allocation (total NAV allocation is 25%, non-Nav is 75%).

I noticed two interesting things with their allocation:

1) The Performance Package is only available on the high end, with NAV.
2) The Large Sunroof is only available on a non-Nav vehicle.

There is no mention in any of the packages of the Dynamic Laser Cruise Control. My dealer isn't sure what to think about this, and I don't even know if I can order it separately.

One more thing -- if you have not been invited, Lexus is having their annual Luxury Refined event this spring/summer. It is being held in many locations throughout the US, and will allow you to drive the RX330, GX470, LX470 and their near competitors. If you did not receive an invite, you can register for one at www.luxuryredefined.com. (I didn't have an invite, and I was able to register without a problem.)

I'll keep everyone informed as I hear more.
Andi

buckeyedon · March 2003

330???????????? or FWD or "whatever".

cbest1465 · March 2003

I got an invite via email. It sounds like a great event - they are having all 3 SUV's from Lexus and their competitors.

You will get to drive them on-road and off-road. Would definitly recommend to anyone interested to sign up - these events are usually "first class" from Lexus.

Thanks for the note on option packages amontgom. I would be curious to know how much the performance package is?

r1_97 · March 2003

I also signed up since we are considering a new 330RX. I went to a similar event for MB E models a few months ago. It was fun driving around the flags.

amontgom · March 2003

I was told that a fully loaded RX330 would be $45k. Since the Performance Package vehicle is about as loaded as you can get, the price is probably somewhere around there.

Andi

ohiosuv · March 2003

It's too bad this thread has been cluttered by the FWD/AWD posts. I am suprised Steve_HOST has let it go on for so long. Can we please get back to pertinent discussion topics?

stever · March 2003

Just keep using that down arrow :-)

Steve, Host

jofam1 · March 2003

Does anybody have any pricing info on the RX 330 ? The local Lexus dealer has 14 coming at the end of March and claims that all but 5 have been presold and yet does not have any pricing info yet. Thank you.

wwest · March 2003

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Subject
RX330

Discussion Thread
Response (Denise Academia) 03/11/2003 02:45 PM
Dear Mr. West:

Thank you for contacting the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department regarding the
2004 RX 330.

The vehicle will have front, center and rear differentials, without the use of a Limited Slip Differential (LSD), in the center differential. The vehicle will not require the viscous coupling because traction control and vehicle skid control will transmit power to the appropriate wheels upon detection of wheel slippage. Also, the RX 330 should have enough rear wheel suspension clearance for the use of snow chains.

If you have any further concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

Sincerely,
Denise Academia
Customer Satisfaction Representative
Customer (Willard West) 03/06/2003 03:45 PM
No answer yet ???
Customer (Willard West) 03/03/2003 01:00 PM
Dear Sir,

The early press releases indicated the new RX330 eliminates the center viscous clutch in favor of a Sequoia-like brake modulation AWD torque apportioning system. I have already placed my order for the RX330 (to replace my wannabee AWD 01 RX300) based on the above information.

Now I note that Lexus.com and Lexus.ca are both indicating the viscous clutch is a holdover on the RX330.

Which is the truth?

Willard West

PS: Will the RX330 have enough rear wheel suspension clearance such that I can use snowchains (rear only or all 4) without be threatened with loss of control?

cbest1465 · March 2003

This web site should answer it. http://pressroom.toyota.com/

Looks like the base price is going to be lower then the current RX

samang · March 2003

I just registered for the drive event, did not I could do so without an invitation. Thanks again.
I saw the preview vehicle at the dealership. It's nicer than I thought it would be. I got a current build and options list from the dealer.

Here are available options (packages):
leather LA - leather, power tilt/telescoping sterring with memory, roof rails, roof racks.

premium PM - includes LA + illuminating entry system, one touch open/close moonroff, 6 disc in dash cd changer.

premium plus PT - includes PM + power back door, HID headlamps, wood and leather steering wheel and shift knob.

nav/mark lev VN - includes PT + Nav with rear camera, Mark levinson 11 speaker stereo.

perormance VP - includes PT + 18" graphite wheels (235/55/r18) all season tires, 6.5J graphite plating, air suspension, sequencial "sport shift" transmition, AFS (HID headlamps that turn with you), rain sensing wipers, BUT NO wood and leather steering wheel and shift knob.

Larg sunrrof VQ - large sunroof, 6 disc in dash cd, power tilt/telescoping sterring with memory, illumination entry, power back door, wood and leather steering wheel and shift knob, HID, leather.

samang · March 2003

Did not want the last post to be too long.
I dont know if the follwing is for Dallas area, or Texas and neighboring states, But here is a list of current builds:

PM + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, power back door, wood and leather steering and shifter.

PT + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, 2 level heated front seats.

PT + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, rear seat entertainment.

PT + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, 2 level heated front seats, NAV wit rear camera.

VQ + 18" wheels

VP + Adaptive cruise control, NAV with rear camera.

VN + 18" wheels, rain sensing wipers, 2 level heated front seats, adaptive cruise control, rear seat entertanment.

samang · March 2003

Thanks to links to toyota press release, we already know that 2wd = $35,025; 4wd = $35,425; and delivery = $575.

The car I saw was VN + 18", heated seats, rain sensing wipers. Sales guy estimated about $42k.

I did some research, my humble estimates for packages and options (based on current Lexus packages):
PM = around $3000
PT = just under $4000
VN = $4900
VQ = I have no idea
VP = PT + $700*
I read somewhere that VP is a $700 option, I have to guess it is $700 on top of a PT premium plus package.

And of course, we have these known prices on other Lexu cars already:
NAV = $2000-$2200
Rear seat entertainment = $1600
Wood and leather steering and know = $330
Mark lev stereo = $1300

I hope my numbers are close...

jofam1 · March 2003

If your estimate of PT is around $4,000, then VN, which includes PT plus Nav ($2,200) plus ML ($1300) would be around $7500.

That would take the MSRP of the RX to $43,500, which is $2500 more than a comparably equipped MDX of $41,000. Thus equipped, the RX would have power back door, power tilt/telescoping with memory and HID headlamps, but the MDX would have heated leather seats, rain sensing wipers and 7-seat arrangement and still costs $2500 less?

wmquan · March 2003

A gentleman on another system was kind enough to share the prices he says he got from calling Lexus Customser Service. I can't vouch for these numbers myself:

PT - $3,440 Premium Plus package
> Includes: Leather, power tilt wheel, moonroof
VN - $6,670 Levinson/NAV package
> Includes: NAV w/rear camera, Levinson, Leather, HIDs, Power Back Door, Wood/Leather Wheel & Knob, moonroof??
DR - $220 Roof rack/rails
FT - $215 Aluminum 18" wheels, full spare
HH - $665 Heated Front Seats w/rain sensing wipers
CL - $600 Dynamic laser cruise control
NV - $2,350 Navigation w/rear camera
HL - $515 HIDs
Lexus Link - $1,215
PL - $400 Power back door
EY - approximately $1800 (did not write down the exact amount) - Rear Entertainment System

He did not get some other packages, e.g. the Performance Package.

jofam1 · March 2003

The MSRP of the 4-wheel version is actually $36,425, making the above comparison slightly worse, with the RX ending up costing $44,500 or $3,500 more than a comparably equipped MDX. But the RX will also have real wood and knee and side curtain airbags as well. If the RX will also have Lexus Link packaged with the Navi, that will also be an extra $1275.

samang · March 2003

wmquan, your numbers sure make a lot more sense. I was way off on the VN package. Otherwise, I think we have a pretty good idea on what things will cost now.

jofam1, keep in mind, packages are not supposed to be as much as individual options added up, it should be less, maybe not as cheap as I guessed. As to your refernce to MDX, I drive a 2001 CL, and I always joke that my Acura stands for "can't afford a Lexus".

So, I would not expect the RX to be cheaper than a similarly equipted MDX.

Now, can anyone advise regarding how to get the best deal an RX 330? This will be my first Lexus purchase. Hopefully, my Acura will mean "couldn;t afford a Lexus until now".

cbest1465 · March 2003

Thanks everyone for all the price estimates. I do have one question about the wood on the steering wheel. My current Lexus is a Silversport which didn't offer this option.

How is the grip? Could it be slippery at times? It's a nice looking option with the matching shift knob.

Pricing however will be interesting since the demand is going to be so great. I was planning on waiting to see if they come out with a "special edition".

amontgom · March 2003

I'm a lady, not a gentleman! (Heehee) I just forwarded the option prices to my Lexus rep, so hopefully, we will get confirmation soon.

Andi

wmquan · March 2003

Oops! Please forgive my biased gender assumption. And please do let us know what your dealer says.

uis00sn · March 2003

Does anybody know whether a rear camera is available as a stand-alone option W/O NAV?

Thanks.

amontgom · March 2003

It is my understanding that the rear camera is only available with the NAV.

And William -- no problem! My name always seems to give me a few laughs along the way. I think there are probably more females on this board than you think -- we just lurk a little more.

I'll try to diligently post any info I can get on this car - either from the dealer or from Lexus Customer Service. I'm trying to give my sales rep a few days before I call him again. Don't want him to think I'm a pest!

Andi

wwest · March 2003

Just what I needed, a remake of that stupid movie.

r1_97 · March 2003

We've signed up for preview test drive of Lexus' new SUVs tomorrow. Only interested in new RX330. Will report if we're not rained out.

amontgom · March 2003

My dealer (Pohanka Lexus, Chantilly, VA) confirmed today that they are not getting any vehicles with the VN (Mark Levinson/NAV) or CL (dynamic laser cruise) options -- I will have to special order my vehicle if I want these to be included. They said that all Eastern region dealers (VA, MD, PA, NJ, NY, DE, etc.) will be sent the same six standard builds, but I'm going to check around just to make sure. The reason is that Lexus is trying to hold the price down to around $40k. Bummer -- I really want these options, so if I can confirm this, I guess I'll have to place my order and wait until around July/August to get mine. They did say, however, that the price would be more negotiable if I placed a special order. That gives me something to think about, as I certainly don't want to pay MSRP for this car!

Andi

amontgom · March 2003

Just to clarify -- there are two NAV packages available on the RX330. The VN (Mark Levinson/NAV) package is the one that will only be available in my region via special order. The other NAV package, NV, will be available on the standard allocations. The NV package includes Nav with the rear camera.

Andi

laterldf · March 2003

I noticed that Kelly Blue Book (kbb.com) has posted the pricing of the new RX 330's, along with the various option packages. later, ldf

amontgom · March 2003

laterldf -- Thanks for the pricing link!

Andi

r1_97 · March 2003

sorry, can't report

cbest1465 · March 2003

Well Andi - I am with you. Guess I will have to special order one too. I am in DC. I was checking out the Kelly Blue Book site - by the time I finished - I had the price close to 50k - performance package really bumped it up.

Wonder how much negotiating I can do to get that price down some? If anything - could do without the performance package.

JBaumgart · March 2003

I also priced out the Performance Pkg plus various other options, and got the price up higher than expected. It's a little confusing as to what options you need to check to get the car configured the way you want. Basically I'm looking at everything except the Entertainment System (rear DVD), Moon-Roof Pkg (extra-large sunroof, etc) and possibly the Dynamic Speed Control. The Performance Pkg includes the Premium Pkg but if you want the Navigation System and the Mark Levinson it appears that you also need to check "VN" which in turn includes the "Premium Plus Pkg." The Premium Plus Pkg, in turn, also includes the Premium Pkg - which you're already paying for with the Performance Pkg. Checking both the Performance Pkg and "VN" - along with the Towing Pkg and Heated Seats - gets the total up to $49,925. And this is without the Dynamic Speed Control or the Entertainment System. This is definitely in GX470 territory which for another $2,000 you WOULD have the rear Entertainment System.

If this is correct then I would probably skip the Mark Levinson and just add the separate Navigation System which would yield a more reasonable $45,505 MSRP. Maybe I'm missing something and someone can clarify? I put a refundable deposit down yesterday and I want to understand what my options are before the vehicles start to arrive, which is expected in 2-3 weeks.

Incidentally at this particular dealership there are about 120 customers ahead of me, and this number was expected to grow considerably with the auto show (spring new car fever) starting here locally today.

rparis · March 2003

My local dealer told me many thousands of the vehicles hae been presold, that they will sell all vehicles they are able to obtain,and will sell, due to demand, at list price. Have others heard otherwise?

borg1of2 · March 2003

As with all new Lexus vehichles, they will sell at MSRP in the early stages of release. People have been waiting and will pay that, so they will sell. However, after the initial demand prices will become negotiable. Case in point is the GX release. There are sellers out there selling below MSRP.

The other side of things, Lexus likes to sell at MSRP and you really have to shop around. I'll bet there are still Lexus dealers selling RX 300's at MSRP.

Just some thoughts

wwest · March 2003

Didn't everyone quickly learn that the GX was a piece of manure?

I heard that Lexus hasn't been able to give them away and so factory production has been cut drastically.

jryn · March 2003

Toyota/Lexus was projecting annual GX sales of 20,000. Through the first two months of 2003, they've sold more than 4000 (which, if you annualize it, is over 24,000 GX's).

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- - - =20030303sales

The folks posting on the Edmunds GX boards seem to like it.

Just curious to know where you've picked up your info re production cutbacks and low consumer acceptance.

wwest · March 2003

Yes, and the first two years production of the Cayenne was presold......to the dealers.

bodble2 · March 2003

You guys should move to Canada and buy. The top price here is only 62K CDN! That's what, about 40K USD?

stever · March 2003

Move to Canada? You wouldn't happen to be the BC Premier trying to solicit new citizens would you?

:-)

Steve, Host
(if you are him, sorry about that Hawaiian DUI)

r1_97 · March 2003

Since Edmonds doesn't have a price schedule yet for the RX330, I went to KBB and copied their price list. It seems there is duplication with the individual elements added to the package price. For example, the Premium package at $2145 also adds the luggage rack for $220 which is included.

samang · March 2003

I went to another dealer Saturday. He mentioned a 4wd, Mark Lev with Nav, and a couple small options (you know how dealers are, listing options that are already in the package), but no performance package, at $43k.

I will go back for a test drive tonight. I will try to get a copy of their sticker for the above car.

He said they have about 5 or 6 out of their first allocation that have not been pre-ordered. Hopefully it stays that way, I would love a discount after 3 or 4 months it is released.

JBaumgart · March 2003

If I am not mistaken, in Canada you are relatively limited in your choices of options, so this may explain the lower top end of pricing there. For example, if you choose the Performance Pkg it does not appear that you can also add the Navigation Pkg (?). The way I've priced it out using kbb.com here in the U.S., adding these two plus the Towing Pkg and Heated Seats brings it to just about $45,500. This price includes basically everything except the Mark Levinson, the big moonroof, the Adaptive Cruise Control and the Entertainment System (rear DVD). It does not appear, at least at launch time, that the Mark Levinson can be added to vehicles that are ordered with the Performance Pkg. But regional variations and high customer demand could certainly change all that.

samang · March 2003

I think kbb numbers must be off a little.
I am going to bet that for VP($6770)+ VN($5455) package, we probably should at least deduct the PM($2145). Basically, 2wd+VP+VN-PM=$45680. They keep saying top end at 45k, this makes it sound closer to it. I also think pricing for WU is wrong on kbb. How can wood steering and shift be $4220?? On another Lexus car, its only $330.

Anyhoo, dealer says Lexus has tendency to under promise and over perform. So we will see.

samang · March 2003

Drove a 4wd RX330 last night. It had NV+HS+FT options on it. Dealer said list around $43+ which again confirms that kbb numbers maybe off.

Anyway, nice drive... Extremely quiet, enough pep for a fun drive. I can't write a good review, because I have never driven an RX before. I have a 3.2CL with NAV (so you know what I am used to), and I was very impressed. I did sit in an RX300 to compare the interior. WOW, after seeing the 330, I would never want an RX300. And the 300 is the hotest selling lux-ute, to put it in perspective.

I really like the NAV on the 330. Much better compared to my the one in my Acura. Lots of features, including However it could use a little joystick, and hopefully we can enter destination while driving. I forgot to test that feature.

Anyway, can't wait to have one. Please keep posting any pricing info you find. Thanks.

Lexus RX 330

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