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Hybrid vs Diesel

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Comments

  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    Ah yes, I disagree.

     

    Every HCH in its lifetime uses at least 1 battery pack. That's energy and emissions associated with manufacture and disposal of at least 1 battery pack. Do you know what it is. Without knowing it you can't claim the TDI is dirtier.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    We are not measuring production or disposal, we are measuring things we CAN measure...EPA GHG numbers...

     

    No one could come up with the ACTUAL EMISSIONS for a particular car it's entire lifetime, including manufacture, usage, and disposal, could they?

     

    You go ahead and spend the next year trying and let me know when you get those numbers....:)
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    The EPA ratings and real-world results can be very different; it is possible they might even average out overall. The EPA does not consider the powerband and torque ranges of the motors.

     

    One example of how they might average out would be: say a TDI and a HCH are merging onto a highway. Both drivers give it some gas. The TDI powerplant has a lot of low-end power and the driver upshifts early at low RPMs. The HCH doesn't have much low-end torque (compared to the diesel). The driver leaves it in a lower gear longer and winds the motor up a bit to get up to speed on the on-ramp. I'd bet the TDI is "cleaner" at 2,425 RPMs than the HCH is at 3,850 RPMS.

     

    So the cars are traveling down the highway. It's pretty crowded, and the flow of traffic is speeding up and slowing down repeatedly. The TDI can pull the top gear from 55-75mph each time with low stress on the motor (low RPMs). The HCH keeps having to drop down a gear and rev just a bit to keep up with the accelerations of the flow of traffic. Once again, in a real world, the TDI is actually "cleaner."
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Surely true, Archer....BUT....

     

    Sure there are "isolated incidents" in which the diesel would be cleaner at a given moment. But there is one shining moment where the Hybrid takes all the marbles:

     

    When it stops at a red light and the gas engine shuts off (called AutoStop)and then it restarts in 400 milliseconds when you press GO.

     

    No diesel can do that. :)
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Thats why I said it probably averages out! :-)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Electrictoy:

    CO2 may be naturally occurring and isn’t classified as a pollutant but that cannot be an excuse to drain as much CO2 as possible into the air, at least not without adding trees (which can be a part of the solution to the GHG issue).

     

    Excessive GHG emissions can be an issue in densely populated areas, as in much of Asia and Europe, not as much in the USA.

     

    In case of hybrids, however, it is not just GHG emissions that has come down but also the pollutants.

     

    zodiac2004:

    Every HCH in its lifetime uses at least 1 battery pack. That's energy and emissions associated with manufacture and disposal of at least 1 battery pack. Do you know what it is. Without knowing it you can't claim the TDI is dirtier.

     

    Without knowing and digging up all the components involved in a diesel powered vehicle (including fuel extraction/refinement/delivery/storage etc) or hybrid vehicle, drawing conclusions is just plain wrong. As can be seen in your argument (against one side but not the other).

     

    benderofbows:

    I'd bet the TDI is "cleaner" at 2,425 RPMs than the HCH is at 3,850 RPMS.

     

    I wouldn’t. Without knowing facts, don’t bet. And you haven’t considered idle stop yet. Remember, at 3850 rpm, not all energy is coming off gasoline motor either but in case of TDI, combustion of diesel is the sole source.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Due to their inefficient nature, gasoline cars are inherently worse for expelling GHG than diesel.

     

    But HAH or HCH aren’t gasoline-only cars. That said, if you want to consider gasoline-only cars to diesel, what about these numbers?

     

    Accord 2.4/I-4: 6.5 tons

    Passat Diesel: 6.8 tons

     

    Gasoline powered Accord I-4 is better than diesel powered Passat. Isn’t it?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Gasoline powered Accord I-4 is better than diesel powered Passat. Isn’t it?

     

    The Accord can be cleaner. However if your ambition is to make the cleanest environment and use as little fossil fuel as neccesary the Passat TDI fueled by biodiesel is the cleaner choice. I would never argue that a VW TDI running on 300-500 PPM sulfer diesel is as clean as a 4 cylinder Accord.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The Accord can be cleaner.

     

    It IS cleaner. I quoted the numbers (and link) to support it. It does so, while performing better.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It IS cleaner. I quoted the numbers (and link) to support it. It does so, while performing better.

     

    No, you linked us to the EPA which most everyone on this forum says is flawed. In the case of diesel vs gas it is totally flawed. Most gas cars run on regular or premium unleaded. Gas has standards of performance or octane ratings that are pretty much adhered to across the country. Diesel can vary from bunker oil to jet fuel. If it is low cetane rating it may run fine in a semi. It will not run well in a modern turbo diesel. The EPA also needs to test and show results for biodiesel as it becomes more widely available. My contention is that a VW TDI running on B100 will outperform, be cleaner, less GHG and get much better mileage than the Honda Accord 4 cylinder. If you have data to refute that I would be interested in seeing it.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Why you will want a gasoline-powered 'strong' hybrid, and why diesel-hybrids won’t make it in North America.

     

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=807

     

    Diesel-electric hybrid cars make no real sense in North America, and not much elsewhere. Period. That's a pretty strong statement, but suspend disbelief, read the following and then make up your own mind.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "I BET if you asked GreenPeace or the Union of Concerned Scientists, they would AGREE that "more GHG=dirtier.""

     

    .

     

    I don't care. Those whackjobs think we should use smelly outhouses instead of indoor plumbing.

     

    BOTH the EPA & CARB classify CO2 as "greenhouse gas" NOT "pollutant". They're far more intelligent than either of us. They KNOW.

     

    THE CORRECT STATEMENT: "Civic Hybrid & Jetta TDI are equally clean (equal amount of pollutants), although the tdi contributes more CO2 to the greenhouse effect."

     

    troy
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    there really must not be much to say....

     

    Anyone got any new info... anything interesting?

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  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    No, you linked us to the EPA which most everyone on this forum says is flawed.

     

    Since when? It lists calculated GHG emissions, not assignment of categories (like PZEV or AT-PZEV) which is being questioned.

     

    Most gas cars run on regular or premium unleaded. Gas has standards of performance or octane ratings that are pretty much adhered to across the country. Diesel can vary from bunker oil to jet fuel.

     

    Not really. And don’t confuse diesel with jet fuel. They are not the same. If they were, there would be no differentiation between different forms of refined oil: kerosene, gasoline, jet fuel, diesel etc.

     

    Octane rating does not determine emissions but combustibility. Higher grade octane gasoline requires more heat to combust and is better suited to high compression applications (with introduction of DI gasoline engines, not necessarily). And higher compression yields higher energy efficiency. Gasoline engines are typically using compression ratio close to 10.0:1, compared to diesels that require much higher compression (in low 20s) although in an effort to improve NVH etc, engine manufacturers like Honda have opted to keep it low (around 16:1 for the 2.2-liter i-CTDi in European Accord).

     

    With DI technology, the compression ratio has gone up in gasoline engines for automobiles (not racing but road applications).

     

    If you want to throw bio-diesel into the mix as loosely as you do, remember its own short comings. I would like to see how B100 performs in Alaska with vehicle sitting in its parking space for a while.

     

    But, we have come quite far from the point I refuted your assumption on GHG emissions.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Where did the idea "diesel is not regulated" come from?

     

    It's regulated by Cetane value (45 to 55).

    Sulfur content: <500 ppm (<5 in 2006) Season (summer vs. winter) And use: Road vs. Off-road Diesel is as strictly regulated as gasoline. troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    But, we have come quite far from the point I refuted your assumption on GHG emissions.

     

    I have no assumptions on GHG. The facts are that a diesel car using biodiesel will have a much lower net emission of GHG than a gas car. Where I work in Alaska we have to run #1 diesel/kerosene/jet fuel with #2 diesel to keep it from gelling. The need for biodiesel in Alaska is non-existent. The need for biodiesel is in So. California where more drivers are on the road at any given moment than there are people in the whole state of Alaska.

     

    Here are two sources from Harvard and Canadian government that back up my assertion that your Accord on gas is less environmentally friendly than the Passat TDI on Biodiesel.

     

    Here&#146;s the short version to describe biodiesel. Biodiesel is a methyl ester produced by a chemical reaction between methanol and a vegetable oil or animal fat. As an alternative fuel, it comes from renewable sources, reduces GHG emissions, and does not require changes in fuel distribution or diesel engines. Because biodiesel comes from animal or plant biomass with a short lifetime, it is not releasing stored carbon dioxide as fossil fuels do &#150; but recently captured carbon dioxide

     

    http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:QqRFOJyWZRQJ:courses.dce.harvard.edu/~envre105/feb14/case_0214.pdf+biodiesel+%26+GHG&hl=en

     

    The interest in biodiesel stems from the reduction, of up to 80 percent, in greenhouse gases (GHG) emitted during the production/processing life cycle for biodiesel, as compared to petroleum diesel fuel (petrodiesel). The GHG reductions from biodiesel accrue primarily from the displacement of the petrodiesel consumed. Biodiesel emissions are also reported to be less harmful to human health.

     

    http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/14100/14106e.htm
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I'm getting tired of hearing about biodiesel.

     

    - Yes, you can run your TDI on bio & have CO2=0.

     

    - But you can run a Civic on ethanol & have CO2=0.

     

    It's an equal advantage & therefore a wash.

     

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Where did the idea "diesel is not regulated" come from?

     

    My understanding is that some truck stop diesel can be as low as 40 cetane. Many newer container ships are now burning bunker fuel which is as high as 3000 ppm sulfur. One of the major reasons for the brown haze in the Los Angeles basin that backs up against the San Bernardino mountains. That is where the regulation is needed. Not stopping the sale of high efficiency small diesel cars and PUs and acting like CARB is doing something important.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    This was the statement from you that got debunked with my illustration, above,

    "Due to their inefficient nature, gasoline cars are inherently worse for expelling GHG than diesel."

     

    And again,

    Accord 2.4/I-4 gasoline: 6.5 tons

    Passat 2.0/I-4 diesel: 6.8 tons

     

    Larger capacity gasoline engine that not only outperforms (0-60, quarter mile and rolling acceleration) but also outperforms in GHG emissions. The former is simply a bonus, the latter is disproving your generalization. (And we&#146;re not talking Accord Hybrid yet!).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Cetane has nothing to do with pollution control as you quote it next to the issue of sulfur. It is a different measure altogether, determining ignition delay after fuel injection.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Diesel contains more energy. That also means, given equal MPG, the diesel will emit more CO2. That's obvious.

     

    .

    However, diesel is also more *energy efficient*:

    Jetta Gasoline = ~2900 BTU/mile

    Jetta Diesel = ~2100 BTU/mile

     

    Simply put, the diesel can do the same amount of work, for less energy spent.

     

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It's an equal advantage & therefore a wash

     

    It's not a wash. The fuel economy on E85 equipped vehicles is much lower than on gas. That is not the case with biodiesel. The EPA is concerned that companies buying E85 capable for the tax breaks are using regular unleaded. E85 is expensive in CA as the transportation is more expensive than gas or diesel. I don't believe a Civic would run on E85.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Here is an interesting comparison on a GOVERNMENT web site. I compared the 2004 Honda Civic, Civic Hybrid and 2003 VW Jetta TDI. You might have to re enter the pertinent comparison data. This is further interesting in that the diesel used (the HATED) ordinary truck stop #2 diesel fuel vs the new 2006 standard and or (biodiesel) B100 or a mix!!!!

     

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

     

    The diesel engine is more powerful than either the gasser engine or the gasser hybrid engine. The diesel puts out annual greenhouse gasses-AGGE's of 4.7 tons vs 5.7 tons for less powerful gasser Civic vs 4.1 tons for a Civic gas hybrid.

     

    The DIESEL clearly pumps out LESS AGGE's than the less powerful but VERY VERY GREEN gasser Civic (ULEV).

     

    The gasser also gets LESS mpg 29/38 vs 42/49. The gas hybrid real world mpg only matches the diesel mpg due to the hybrid with an ENORMOUS power disadvantage!

     

    It is obvious there is currently no diesel hybrid. It is also graphically clear that if a diesel was mated to a hybrid, it would pump out less AGGE's than the Civic gas hybrid, and get better mpg. This clearly highlights why the hybrid vs diesel thread has been so adversarial.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "If we didn't have the California legislation to deal with, we as car manufacturers would choose diesel. The advantages are many. You just have to have one propulsion system on board. You just have one tank reservoir and you don't need a big battery. Especially when driving long distances in North America, you don't have the load of carrying another propulsion system."

     

    I could not have said the above Words of Great Wisdom any better! For this compelling interview with a VW board member responsible for Technical Development-please refer to the site below!!!

     

    http://www.globemegawheels.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20- 050210/WHVAUGHAN10/cars/
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    "Diesel contains more energy. That also means, given equal MPG, the diesel will emit more CO2. That's obvious."

     

    Because a chemical compound contains more energy, does not mean that there are more molecules. Formula: (# of molecules) x (energy per molecule)

    =energy; (5)x(2) > (6)x(1.5). So if diesel were the left side of the equation and the (5) represents the amount of carbon, you would have less CO2 with more energy.

     

    The energy released from combustion of fuel is not simply dependent on how much carbon is present, but is also dependent on the energy of the bonds being broken between C and O and H. Diesel I believe has higher energy molecular bonding.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Diesel I believe has higher energy molecular bonding."...

     

    This is not a "belief" it is FACT.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Diesel exhaust may increase the speed of Global Warming:

     

    "The reason the issue of diesel versus gasoline is important, says Jacobson, is that, in Europe, one of the major strategies for satisfying the Kyoto Protocol is to promote further the use of diesel vehicles and specifically to provide a greater tax advantage for diesel. Tax laws in all European Union countries, except the United Kingdom, currently favor diesel, thereby inadvertently promoting global warming, Jacobson says. Further, some countries, including Sweden, Finland, Norway, and the Netherlands, also tax fuels based on their carbon content. These taxes also favor diesel, he notes, since diesel releases less carbon per kilometer [mile] than does gasoline. Nevertheless, the small amount of black carbon and organic matter emitted by diesel may warm the atmosphere more over 100 years than the additional carbon dioxide emitted by gasoline."

     

    Entire article here:

     

    http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/prrl/prrl0233.html
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The gas hybrid real world mpg only matches the diesel mpg due to the hybrid with an ENORMOUS power disadvantage!

     

    Now we&#146;re concerned about power ratings? Are we always? Then we shouldn&#146;t compare Accord Hybrid to Passat Diesel or (possibility of) Accord Diesel. Should we?

     

    And you either believe in EPA or not. Take a side, and we go from there. Otherwise we could use a real life comparison test for illustrations, as was done by C&D a few months ago, involving Civic Hybrid, Prius and Jetta TDI.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I think you like the artificial categories for "WAXING" on purposes.

     

    If the numbers (on this FED site) are to be believed, ALL GASSERS other than the hybrid gassers emit FAR more green house gasses both % and volume than VW TDI diesels!!!!! The American diesel population sits between 2.3-2.9% So by CLEARLY (by default) the ENEMIES (ones you are really railing against) are the other 97-98% GASSERS!!!!!??? Diesels are just a metaphor for your discontent! Your reasoning makes a rock solid case for MORE diesel use, both in volume and percentage!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Are you really saying that the gasser use has NO contribution??
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is a good perspective. It looks like CA car buyers will be strapped with more expensive cars than the rest of the USA due to more stringent regulations. VW is saying they are not going to try and make a diesel that is PZEV, if I read the interview correctly. They will build a hybrid for the CA market if they have to.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am even more glad I got the 2003 TDI! Now to make it go 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles! :(:)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Congrats !! 1 million miles in a Jetta TDI will only cost you

     

    $460,000 !!!!!

     

    Hope you invested well !!! :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    $.46 per mile?

    I would be curious as to how you projected that? Also what you think the average hybrid will cost to maintain at 300k miles plus. There are many on this forum with 300k miles plus driving diesels. How many hybrids do you think will last that long? For me I cannot imagine driving that many miles on a car. But for someone with a long commute it is a fact of life. You either keep a car a long time or waste money on a new one every 7-8 years.

    New 2003 Jetta TDI =$20,000

    diesel for 1 million miles @ 45 mpg $45,000

    engine & transmission rebuild every 200k miles $30,000

    Oil changes every 10k miles $7500


    I get a total expenditure of about $102,500 for a million miles. More like 10 cents per mile. See if you can get that with a hybrid for a million miles.

     

    I predict right here and now, in 6 years there will be a bunch of screaming hybrid owners that feel ripped off when the repair bills start adding up. The diesel bunch will be saying I told you so...
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    My per mile indicators are FAR less than .46 cents per mile. Given your perchance to keep your hybrid 100,000 or less, compared to that cycle, I have essentially broken even! But in truth it is far better than that.

     

    Fuel will essentially be at the going rate/time. It would be the same for gassers. The essential kicker is it will become cost effective to get a new vehicle when the gas mileage is 3x better or....138 mpg!!!!! :(:)

     

    In today's dollars:

    at 46 mpg 2.15 per gal =.0467 cents.

     

    Schduled maintenance is .0103591 cents. (includes all stuff that wears,100k timing belt changes, clutch, tires, brakes, etc etc) So operating costs are .0570591 cents per mile.

     

    So if I fully depreciate the cost of the car that would be .018 per mile Again if it holds true then 1M would = $75,059.00

     

    Engines for my projections are "unscheduled" maintenance and as such is app 4,000 and 1,000 for labor. Design life is 10,000-20,000 hrs say at the average speed of 45 mph= 450,000-900,000 miles.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I just used Edmunds.com and looked up the 2005 Jetta GLS TDI and went to the page which has the True Cost to Own figures.

     

    Edmunds has that on ALL new cars.....check it out:

     

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/volkswagen/jetta/100477736/cto.ht- ml?tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..4.Volkswagen*
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, I used it when buying a Honda Civic and also a VW Jetta TDI. The assumptions they used are FAR different that the ones I use to KEEP a Civic 250,000 miles +plus and the TDI for 500,000-1,000,000 miles +plus. As you can probably gather and agree, they are different!!?

     

    So the kicker is when you try to run a hybrid out to those numbers, and as you well know the cost will probably be high or even cost prohibitive.

     

    So essentially, i.e., (pick your number, any number)if you do trade new every 100,000 miles you will have to get 10 cars (app) say at 20k or 200,000 dollars acquisition costs over time. vs 18,000 dollars.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am ok with you (even totally) disagreeing with my conclusions, but have the decency to AT LEAST represent what was actually said.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"I predict right here and now, in 6 years there will be a bunch of screaming hybrid owners that feel ripped off when the repair bills start adding up. The diesel bunch will be saying I told you so..."-end quote

     

    Not the SMART ones. The SMART ones like me will trade up to a newer, better hybrid (maybe even a diesel hybrid sedan, if one comes to be) and leave the battery problems to the second or third owner or the junkyard owner.... :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Cetane has nothing to do with pollution control as you quote it next to the issue of sulfur. It is a different measure altogether, determining ignition delay after fuel injection."...

     

    On the contrary, this is not true, Cetane plays its part! New 2006 standard low sulfur fuel will have 50 cetane and above. Current 49 state cetane is required to be at least 40 Cetane at the pump. In fact current CA Cetane is required to be 45 cetane. It is considered cleaner burning and manufactures less sludge.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Not the SMART ones. The SMART ones like me will trade up to a newer, better hybrid (maybe even a diesel hybrid sedan, if one comes to be) and leave the battery problems to the second or third owner or the junkyard owner.... :) ..."

     

    Actually you are making a prima facie case for spending closer to the (.46 per mile or ) 460,000 for a million miles traveled than I ever would!!!?? :)
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    That 46 cents per mile is only for the first 5 years. But you have to realize that the depreciation will stabilize and the car won't accrue financing charges, and there won't be more sales tax, etc. So the costs per mile after that period would be way less than half.

     

    To keep a car over 100,000 miles a diesel is going to be much less expensive than a hybrid. Think about how much electric stuff starts going out on an old car, and multipy that by about 10!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Example: If I buy cars which are only 39 cents per mile, and I buy ten of them in 30 years, I'm STILL spending less than a driving ONE CAR that costs 46 cents per mile 30 years, am I not?

     

    39 cents x 99,000 miles x 10 = $386,100

     

    46 cents x 1,000,000 miles = $460,000
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    As I said, the diesel would not continue to cost $0.46 per mile. More like $0.20, and that's keeping it up to very high maintenance standards.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    For planning purposes, it does make sense to keep a reserve. But that is true even for a "brand" new car!!!

     

    Since I have kept 2 vehicles app 250,000 miles each, I have a reasonable feel and experiences to go along with it. But what happens is a lot of those items give out as a matter of course, so really it is included as "regular" maintenance.

     

    The reason they would be included as "unscheduled" maintenance in a hybrid for example would be the "shorter" time horizon, and rightly so.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It would be great if Edmunds would go beyond five years, but if they do not, then anything we "guess" is just a "guess."
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Yes.. but ONE car won't cost 46 cents/mile over 1,000,000 miles.. After 150K miles, no more depreciation... No more finance charges... Property taxes are minimal, no collision insurance, etc., etc, etc..

     

    If you HAVE to buy a new car every 100K miles, then that does pretty much prove that hybrids will cost much more in the long run..

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  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Exactly.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"If you HAVE to buy a new car every 100K miles, then that does pretty much prove that hybrids will cost much more in the long run."-end quote

     

    Actually, that proves nothing at all. There ARE the adventurous types who want to keep a hybrid car for 500K miles, and more power to them. I'm not one of them.

     

    I'll take my 39 cents per mile cost over 60K-90K miles and be happy I'm driving new technology every 3-4 years.... :)

     

    I'm still on the lookout for that diesel/electric 4 door hybrid sedan which gets 60-70 MPG and costs less than $30K......
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."I'll take my 39 cents per mile cost over 60K-90K miles and be happy I'm driving new technology every 3-4 years.... :) "...

     

    Well I stand corrected then! Your figures indicate 12-17 cars over a 1,000,000 miles and at 20,000 that is 240,000- 340,000 in acquisition costs!

     

    Yes yes! 240k-340k is less than 18k! :)
This discussion has been closed.