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Hybrid vs Diesel
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Every HCH in its lifetime uses at least 1 battery pack. That's energy and emissions associated with manufacture and disposal of at least 1 battery pack. Do you know what it is. Without knowing it you can't claim the TDI is dirtier.
No one could come up with the ACTUAL EMISSIONS for a particular car it's entire lifetime, including manufacture, usage, and disposal, could they?
You go ahead and spend the next year trying and let me know when you get those numbers....:)
One example of how they might average out would be: say a TDI and a HCH are merging onto a highway. Both drivers give it some gas. The TDI powerplant has a lot of low-end power and the driver upshifts early at low RPMs. The HCH doesn't have much low-end torque (compared to the diesel). The driver leaves it in a lower gear longer and winds the motor up a bit to get up to speed on the on-ramp. I'd bet the TDI is "cleaner" at 2,425 RPMs than the HCH is at 3,850 RPMS.
So the cars are traveling down the highway. It's pretty crowded, and the flow of traffic is speeding up and slowing down repeatedly. The TDI can pull the top gear from 55-75mph each time with low stress on the motor (low RPMs). The HCH keeps having to drop down a gear and rev just a bit to keep up with the accelerations of the flow of traffic. Once again, in a real world, the TDI is actually "cleaner."
Sure there are "isolated incidents" in which the diesel would be cleaner at a given moment. But there is one shining moment where the Hybrid takes all the marbles:
When it stops at a red light and the gas engine shuts off (called AutoStop)and then it restarts in 400 milliseconds when you press GO.
No diesel can do that.
CO2 may be naturally occurring and isn’t classified as a pollutant but that cannot be an excuse to drain as much CO2 as possible into the air, at least not without adding trees (which can be a part of the solution to the GHG issue).
Excessive GHG emissions can be an issue in densely populated areas, as in much of Asia and Europe, not as much in the USA.
In case of hybrids, however, it is not just GHG emissions that has come down but also the pollutants.
zodiac2004:
Every HCH in its lifetime uses at least 1 battery pack. That's energy and emissions associated with manufacture and disposal of at least 1 battery pack. Do you know what it is. Without knowing it you can't claim the TDI is dirtier.
Without knowing and digging up all the components involved in a diesel powered vehicle (including fuel extraction/refinement/delivery/storage etc) or hybrid vehicle, drawing conclusions is just plain wrong. As can be seen in your argument (against one side but not the other).
benderofbows:
I'd bet the TDI is "cleaner" at 2,425 RPMs than the HCH is at 3,850 RPMS.
I wouldn’t. Without knowing facts, don’t bet. And you haven’t considered idle stop yet. Remember, at 3850 rpm, not all energy is coming off gasoline motor either but in case of TDI, combustion of diesel is the sole source.
But HAH or HCH aren’t gasoline-only cars. That said, if you want to consider gasoline-only cars to diesel, what about these numbers?
Accord 2.4/I-4: 6.5 tons
Passat Diesel: 6.8 tons
Gasoline powered Accord I-4 is better than diesel powered Passat. Isn’t it?
The Accord can be cleaner. However if your ambition is to make the cleanest environment and use as little fossil fuel as neccesary the Passat TDI fueled by biodiesel is the cleaner choice. I would never argue that a VW TDI running on 300-500 PPM sulfer diesel is as clean as a 4 cylinder Accord.
It IS cleaner. I quoted the numbers (and link) to support it. It does so, while performing better.
No, you linked us to the EPA which most everyone on this forum says is flawed. In the case of diesel vs gas it is totally flawed. Most gas cars run on regular or premium unleaded. Gas has standards of performance or octane ratings that are pretty much adhered to across the country. Diesel can vary from bunker oil to jet fuel. If it is low cetane rating it may run fine in a semi. It will not run well in a modern turbo diesel. The EPA also needs to test and show results for biodiesel as it becomes more widely available. My contention is that a VW TDI running on B100 will outperform, be cleaner, less GHG and get much better mileage than the Honda Accord 4 cylinder. If you have data to refute that I would be interested in seeing it.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=807
Diesel-electric hybrid cars make no real sense in North America, and not much elsewhere. Period. That's a pretty strong statement, but suspend disbelief, read the following and then make up your own mind.
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I don't care. Those whackjobs think we should use smelly outhouses instead of indoor plumbing.
BOTH the EPA & CARB classify CO2 as "greenhouse gas" NOT "pollutant". They're far more intelligent than either of us. They KNOW.
THE CORRECT STATEMENT: "Civic Hybrid & Jetta TDI are equally clean (equal amount of pollutants), although the tdi contributes more CO2 to the greenhouse effect."
troy
Anyone got any new info... anything interesting?
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Since when? It lists calculated GHG emissions, not assignment of categories (like PZEV or AT-PZEV) which is being questioned.
Most gas cars run on regular or premium unleaded. Gas has standards of performance or octane ratings that are pretty much adhered to across the country. Diesel can vary from bunker oil to jet fuel.
Not really. And don’t confuse diesel with jet fuel. They are not the same. If they were, there would be no differentiation between different forms of refined oil: kerosene, gasoline, jet fuel, diesel etc.
Octane rating does not determine emissions but combustibility. Higher grade octane gasoline requires more heat to combust and is better suited to high compression applications (with introduction of DI gasoline engines, not necessarily). And higher compression yields higher energy efficiency. Gasoline engines are typically using compression ratio close to 10.0:1, compared to diesels that require much higher compression (in low 20s) although in an effort to improve NVH etc, engine manufacturers like Honda have opted to keep it low (around 16:1 for the 2.2-liter i-CTDi in European Accord).
With DI technology, the compression ratio has gone up in gasoline engines for automobiles (not racing but road applications).
If you want to throw bio-diesel into the mix as loosely as you do, remember its own short comings. I would like to see how B100 performs in Alaska with vehicle sitting in its parking space for a while.
But, we have come quite far from the point I refuted your assumption on GHG emissions.
It's regulated by Cetane value (45 to 55).
Sulfur content: <500 ppm (<5 in 2006) Season (summer vs. winter) And use: Road vs. Off-road Diesel is as strictly regulated as gasoline. troy
I have no assumptions on GHG. The facts are that a diesel car using biodiesel will have a much lower net emission of GHG than a gas car. Where I work in Alaska we have to run #1 diesel/kerosene/jet fuel with #2 diesel to keep it from gelling. The need for biodiesel in Alaska is non-existent. The need for biodiesel is in So. California where more drivers are on the road at any given moment than there are people in the whole state of Alaska.
Here are two sources from Harvard and Canadian government that back up my assertion that your Accord on gas is less environmentally friendly than the Passat TDI on Biodiesel.
Here’s the short version to describe biodiesel. Biodiesel is a methyl ester produced by a chemical reaction between methanol and a vegetable oil or animal fat. As an alternative fuel, it comes from renewable sources, reduces GHG emissions, and does not require changes in fuel distribution or diesel engines. Because biodiesel comes from animal or plant biomass with a short lifetime, it is not releasing stored carbon dioxide as fossil fuels do – but recently captured carbon dioxide
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:QqRFOJyWZRQJ:courses.dce.harvard.edu/~envre105/feb14/case_0214.pdf+biodiesel+%26+GHG&hl=en
The interest in biodiesel stems from the reduction, of up to 80 percent, in greenhouse gases (GHG) emitted during the production/processing life cycle for biodiesel, as compared to petroleum diesel fuel (petrodiesel). The GHG reductions from biodiesel accrue primarily from the displacement of the petrodiesel consumed. Biodiesel emissions are also reported to be less harmful to human health.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/14100/14106e.htm
- Yes, you can run your TDI on bio & have CO2=0.
- But you can run a Civic on ethanol & have CO2=0.
It's an equal advantage & therefore a wash.
troy
My understanding is that some truck stop diesel can be as low as 40 cetane. Many newer container ships are now burning bunker fuel which is as high as 3000 ppm sulfur. One of the major reasons for the brown haze in the Los Angeles basin that backs up against the San Bernardino mountains. That is where the regulation is needed. Not stopping the sale of high efficiency small diesel cars and PUs and acting like CARB is doing something important.
"Due to their inefficient nature, gasoline cars are inherently worse for expelling GHG than diesel."
And again,
Accord 2.4/I-4 gasoline: 6.5 tons
Passat 2.0/I-4 diesel: 6.8 tons
Larger capacity gasoline engine that not only outperforms (0-60, quarter mile and rolling acceleration) but also outperforms in GHG emissions. The former is simply a bonus, the latter is disproving your generalization. (And we’re not talking Accord Hybrid yet!).
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However, diesel is also more *energy efficient*:
Jetta Gasoline = ~2900 BTU/mile
Jetta Diesel = ~2100 BTU/mile
Simply put, the diesel can do the same amount of work, for less energy spent.
troy
It's not a wash. The fuel economy on E85 equipped vehicles is much lower than on gas. That is not the case with biodiesel. The EPA is concerned that companies buying E85 capable for the tax breaks are using regular unleaded. E85 is expensive in CA as the transportation is more expensive than gas or diesel. I don't believe a Civic would run on E85.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
The diesel engine is more powerful than either the gasser engine or the gasser hybrid engine. The diesel puts out annual greenhouse gasses-AGGE's of 4.7 tons vs 5.7 tons for less powerful gasser Civic vs 4.1 tons for a Civic gas hybrid.
The DIESEL clearly pumps out LESS AGGE's than the less powerful but VERY VERY GREEN gasser Civic (ULEV).
The gasser also gets LESS mpg 29/38 vs 42/49. The gas hybrid real world mpg only matches the diesel mpg due to the hybrid with an ENORMOUS power disadvantage!
It is obvious there is currently no diesel hybrid. It is also graphically clear that if a diesel was mated to a hybrid, it would pump out less AGGE's than the Civic gas hybrid, and get better mpg. This clearly highlights why the hybrid vs diesel thread has been so adversarial.
I could not have said the above Words of Great Wisdom any better! For this compelling interview with a VW board member responsible for Technical Development-please refer to the site below!!!
http://www.globemegawheels.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20- 050210/WHVAUGHAN10/cars/
Because a chemical compound contains more energy, does not mean that there are more molecules. Formula: (# of molecules) x (energy per molecule)
=energy; (5)x(2) > (6)x(1.5). So if diesel were the left side of the equation and the (5) represents the amount of carbon, you would have less CO2 with more energy.
The energy released from combustion of fuel is not simply dependent on how much carbon is present, but is also dependent on the energy of the bonds being broken between C and O and H. Diesel I believe has higher energy molecular bonding.
This is not a "belief" it is FACT.
"The reason the issue of diesel versus gasoline is important, says Jacobson, is that, in Europe, one of the major strategies for satisfying the Kyoto Protocol is to promote further the use of diesel vehicles and specifically to provide a greater tax advantage for diesel. Tax laws in all European Union countries, except the United Kingdom, currently favor diesel, thereby inadvertently promoting global warming, Jacobson says. Further, some countries, including Sweden, Finland, Norway, and the Netherlands, also tax fuels based on their carbon content. These taxes also favor diesel, he notes, since diesel releases less carbon per kilometer [mile] than does gasoline. Nevertheless, the small amount of black carbon and organic matter emitted by diesel may warm the atmosphere more over 100 years than the additional carbon dioxide emitted by gasoline."
Entire article here:
http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/prrl/prrl0233.html
Now we’re concerned about power ratings? Are we always? Then we shouldn’t compare Accord Hybrid to Passat Diesel or (possibility of) Accord Diesel. Should we?
And you either believe in EPA or not. Take a side, and we go from there. Otherwise we could use a real life comparison test for illustrations, as was done by C&D a few months ago, involving Civic Hybrid, Prius and Jetta TDI.
If the numbers (on this FED site) are to be believed, ALL GASSERS other than the hybrid gassers emit FAR more green house gasses both % and volume than VW TDI diesels!!!!! The American diesel population sits between 2.3-2.9% So by CLEARLY (by default) the ENEMIES (ones you are really railing against) are the other 97-98% GASSERS!!!!!??? Diesels are just a metaphor for your discontent! Your reasoning makes a rock solid case for MORE diesel use, both in volume and percentage!!
$460,000 !!!!!
Hope you invested well !!!
I would be curious as to how you projected that? Also what you think the average hybrid will cost to maintain at 300k miles plus. There are many on this forum with 300k miles plus driving diesels. How many hybrids do you think will last that long? For me I cannot imagine driving that many miles on a car. But for someone with a long commute it is a fact of life. You either keep a car a long time or waste money on a new one every 7-8 years.
New 2003 Jetta TDI =$20,000
diesel for 1 million miles @ 45 mpg $45,000
engine & transmission rebuild every 200k miles $30,000
Oil changes every 10k miles $7500
I get a total expenditure of about $102,500 for a million miles. More like 10 cents per mile. See if you can get that with a hybrid for a million miles.
I predict right here and now, in 6 years there will be a bunch of screaming hybrid owners that feel ripped off when the repair bills start adding up. The diesel bunch will be saying I told you so...
Fuel will essentially be at the going rate/time. It would be the same for gassers. The essential kicker is it will become cost effective to get a new vehicle when the gas mileage is 3x better or....138 mpg!!!!!
In today's dollars:
at 46 mpg 2.15 per gal =.0467 cents.
Schduled maintenance is .0103591 cents. (includes all stuff that wears,100k timing belt changes, clutch, tires, brakes, etc etc) So operating costs are .0570591 cents per mile.
So if I fully depreciate the cost of the car that would be .018 per mile Again if it holds true then 1M would = $75,059.00
Engines for my projections are "unscheduled" maintenance and as such is app 4,000 and 1,000 for labor. Design life is 10,000-20,000 hrs say at the average speed of 45 mph= 450,000-900,000 miles.
Edmunds has that on ALL new cars.....check it out:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/volkswagen/jetta/100477736/cto.ht- ml?tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..4.Volkswagen*
So the kicker is when you try to run a hybrid out to those numbers, and as you well know the cost will probably be high or even cost prohibitive.
So essentially, i.e., (pick your number, any number)if you do trade new every 100,000 miles you will have to get 10 cars (app) say at 20k or 200,000 dollars acquisition costs over time. vs 18,000 dollars.
Not the SMART ones. The SMART ones like me will trade up to a newer, better hybrid (maybe even a diesel hybrid sedan, if one comes to be) and leave the battery problems to the second or third owner or the junkyard owner....
On the contrary, this is not true, Cetane plays its part! New 2006 standard low sulfur fuel will have 50 cetane and above. Current 49 state cetane is required to be at least 40 Cetane at the pump. In fact current CA Cetane is required to be 45 cetane. It is considered cleaner burning and manufactures less sludge.
Actually you are making a prima facie case for spending closer to the (.46 per mile or ) 460,000 for a million miles traveled than I ever would!!!??
To keep a car over 100,000 miles a diesel is going to be much less expensive than a hybrid. Think about how much electric stuff starts going out on an old car, and multipy that by about 10!
39 cents x 99,000 miles x 10 = $386,100
46 cents x 1,000,000 miles = $460,000
Since I have kept 2 vehicles app 250,000 miles each, I have a reasonable feel and experiences to go along with it. But what happens is a lot of those items give out as a matter of course, so really it is included as "regular" maintenance.
The reason they would be included as "unscheduled" maintenance in a hybrid for example would be the "shorter" time horizon, and rightly so.
If you HAVE to buy a new car every 100K miles, then that does pretty much prove that hybrids will cost much more in the long run..
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Actually, that proves nothing at all. There ARE the adventurous types who want to keep a hybrid car for 500K miles, and more power to them. I'm not one of them.
I'll take my 39 cents per mile cost over 60K-90K miles and be happy I'm driving new technology every 3-4 years....
I'm still on the lookout for that diesel/electric 4 door hybrid sedan which gets 60-70 MPG and costs less than $30K......
Well I stand corrected then! Your figures indicate 12-17 cars over a 1,000,000 miles and at 20,000 that is 240,000- 340,000 in acquisition costs!
Yes yes! 240k-340k is less than 18k!