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Hybrid vs Diesel

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Comments

  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "If the end result is sufficent power to climb the grade in question at the required speed, why should anyone care if the number of different gear ratios is 4, 6, infinite or even 1?"

    We care because imperfect gear ratio will result in slower power output or acceleration. The delay in shifting costs a lot during uphills because if you are don't put power to the wheel, the car will slow down. This is the worse case for a manual transmission because human takes the longest to shift gears. For HSD, it does "shifting" on-the-fly at the speed of the electricity.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Drive at 30 mph in third gear, and then move to first at the same speed. The revs will jump up (more power, but not necessarily more torque), but you get more thrust at that speed in lower gear."

    You are looking at the engine. You should be looking at the wheel. Lower gear will give more torque to the wheel but how fast can you go on that gear? That's why you need higher gear to go faster, thus more horsepower at the wheel.

    Dennis
  • ajvdhajvdh Member Posts: 223
    "Batteries will last depending on how fast you want to go up. If it is a 10% incline, Prius should be able to climb at about 60mph and able to maintain battery SOC."

    I have *very* strong doubts about that. What's your source for that statement? Do you know how steep a 10% grade is?

    The steepest point on the approach to the Eisenhower tunnel is 7% grade. Based on driving a 2800 lb 168 HP car up it, I can guarantee you that the 76 HP gas engine ain't gonna be pushing no 2900 lb car up it at 60 MPH - especially when that engine's only making 50 or so HP because of the altitude. You'd be seriously into the batteries to hold that speed.

    "If you want to go up at 30mph, Prius has more than sufficient power to drive up and even charge the battery"

    This sounds marginally possible, but once again, what's your source? Even if it's true, why would you want to go that slow on an interstate? You'd be going slower than all but the most heavily loaded tractor-trailers, while the diesel guy's still in the left lane going 60.
  • ajvdhajvdh Member Posts: 223
    "We care because imperfect gear ratio will result in slower power output or acceleration."

    All very nice in theory. But with a reasonably broad torque band and intelligent gear choice (found in the cast majority of modern cars) the difference is minimal to non-existent. Look up the acceleration times of cars availible with CVT, and compare 'em to the same cars with manual gearboxes.

    "The delay in shifting costs a lot during uphills because if you are don't put power to the wheel, the car will slow down."

    Yeah, if shifting took seconds instead of fractions thereof, you might have a point. But it doesn't. Besides, on a steady grade you tend to stay in one gear to the point's moot most the time.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "Read my post again. I said during climbing hills, torque is more desire(not need) than horsepower because you are do not want to go fast anyway."

    First of all, i probably do want to go fast. :-) Secondly, it has nothing to do with it. Moving weight up is what horsepower does. A package on a shelf is making torque but won't get a car up a hill.

    Look, in third gear at, say, 60MPH, you might be at 4500RPM and be getting 170HP. In fifth gear at 60, you might be at 2500RPM and making 100hp, assuming both WOT.

    The transmission doesn't reduce or multiply *horsepower* in any way, shape, or form. It changes *torque*, which is not what does work such as accelerate or maintain speed.

    hp=(torque*rpm)/5252. If you're increasing revs via gears, you're cutting torque, and hp is staying constant. Just think of it as a lever. The lift arm is twice as long, it can carry half the load, but it goes twice as far. Torque is divided by two, distance is doubled, work stays the same.

    I really don't want to talk about this anymore, since it's so simple to look up.

    http://www.howstuffworks.com/horsepower.htm

    "For battery power draining, we were talking about different load requirement on the engine. I was referring to climbing a hill which requires less than 75hp. In which case, the extra 1+hp can be used to recharge the battery."

    So are you saying that your HSD shifts to a "gear" that always allows making more power than is being used? There would be no advantage to a hybrid then. It's natural and desirable to deplete the batteries when climbing a hill. It's not a criticism that you need to scramble like crazy to deflect. The entire point of having a battery is to partially deplete it during high load periods. Just tell the gas guys they will run out of fuel.

    dave
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    Hi
    Some people like myself bought a hybrid car for great gas mileage.
    As others have mentioned racing uphill etc is wasteful.
    Getting best MPG is a skill that can be learned.
    I had to do alot of "unlearning".
    I remember driving my old car, cussing the gas pump then jumping on the freeway and locking CC in at 80-85MPH. Not very smart.
    If one is not willing to change bad habits then buying any vehicle (even dieselhybrid) that boasts superior MPG is a waste of time & money.
    Maximizing MPG requires compromise: there is no getting around it.
    Steve
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "What's your source for that statement? Do you know how steep a 10% grade is?"

    Yes I do. I used to live in San Francisco. I now live in New York. I've been to Virginia as well. Oh boy, Virginia roads are fun to drive.

    Here is the source:
    It takes only about 15 hp to drive a car like the Echo at 65 m.p.h. on a level road and considerably less at lower speeds. But if we gave the car a 30 hp engine, it would take more than 30 seconds to accelerate to 60 m.p.h. and would slow to 30 m.p.h. on a 10% slope.
    http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/In- - - ternalCombustion.htm

    I do realize that I made a mistake of mixing up echo and classic Prius. Originally I thought classic Prius can do 30mph with 30hp on 10% slope. Obviously Echo is lighter than the classic Prius. I apologize for my confusion.

    "The steepest point on the approach to the Eisenhower tunnel is 7% grade."

    Anyway, how long is that Eisenhower tunnel steepest 7% incline and what is the speed limit? Prius can probably keep up at 50mph there. If it is less than 4 miles long, the battery would not run out. Downhill will replenish the battery.
    Also Prius Atkinson/miller cycle does not suffer from pumping loss. Therefore, thinner air would degrade 76hp at minimum.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "Also Prius Atkinson/miller cycle does not suffer from pumping loss."

    It reduces pumping loss somewhat. Even a pure atkinson cycle has some pumping loss, because it is drawing air in and expelling it, but the toyota VVT version has more ( because of the charge running back and forth through the intake valve ). But saying it does not suffer pumping loss is a significant overstatement.

    "Therefore, thinner air would degrade 76hp at minimum."

    Actually, thinner air reduces the pumping loss of a normal engine because the air is thinner and needs to the throttled less for low HP situations. Both will lose HP at the same rate, but the otto cycle will slowly gain in efficency, although it will never catch up.

    dave
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Look up the acceleration times of cars available with CVT, and compare 'em to the same cars with manual gearboxes."

    You mean mechanical CVT with belts, cones and pulley? I will look it up. Just hope that manual tranny isn't "cheating" by dropping off the clutch. It will be interesting to see the results of Planetary ECVT vs. Manual transmission.

    "Yeah, if shifting took seconds instead of fractions thereof, you might have a point."

    If you invest in your retirement bonds, you will know that the early start can speed much faster to when you can retire. The same concept here. The shifting might not take a full second(it can) the results will amplify. Why do you think 0-60 numbers from different magazines can vary up to a full second. It is that fraction of a second difference in shifting by professional drivers. For average Joe, it'll be even bigger. It can come out to 2-3 seconds difference. Probably more on uphill acceleration.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "Some people like myself bought a hybrid car for great gas mileage."

    Yes, that's the assumed reason, i think.

    "As others have mentioned racing uphill etc is wasteful."

    There's a difference between racing and just driving. I'm not willing to get a hybrid if, for example, it means i may get killed merging onto the freeway on a short uphill ramp.

    Frankly, i think a hybrid is perfect for these applications, because stored power can help in needed/fun maneuvers, then when you're cruising along for an hour, or in stop and go, you can have great efficency.

    "Getting best MPG is a skill that can be learned."

    I know all about that. As i pointed out before, i regularly get 35mpg in my 328, and i still pass and merge with great alacrity when needed. I think i could get 50+ in a dieselhybrid running biodiesel smoking the tired now and again. Why compromise?

    Face it, if getting good fuel economy requires permanant grandma-driving, it's never going to become popular.

    dave
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Look, in third gear at, say, 60MPH, you might be at 4500RPM and be getting 170HP. In fifth gear at 60, you might be at 2500RPM and making 100hp, assuming both WOT."

    What is WOT? Anyway, you do realize that at 3rd gear RPM increases faster right? Therefore, power delivery is faster. That is why we down shift.

    "The transmission doesn't reduce or multiply *horsepower* in any way, shape, or form. It changes *torque*, which is not what does work such as accelerate or maintain speed."

    Hahahah. Review what you said again. Transmission does multiply horsepower. Why do you think you rev from idle RPM to redline at first gear? And can shift to 3rd gear and start all over again? Again at 5th gear? In that example, you are making 3 times the horse power that the engine develops from idle RPM to redline. Total horsepower contained in a car is relative to the speed and weight of it. It is just in the form of potential energy.

    "So are you saying that your HSD shifts to a "gear" that always allows making more power than is being used?"

    Read what I said again. I used less than 75hp, meaning could be 74hp, 73hp, 72hp, etc... Since Prius engine can make 76hp, the remaining is actually 2 or more horsepower(2+hp). BTW, hill are not like pyramids. As you approach the top, the slope gets less. HSD might use more electricity when climbing from the bottom. It will use less when approaching the top, even recharging. On average, it will maintain the SOC. That is what I mean.

    Dennis
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "Some people like myself bought a hybrid car for great gas mileage."

    I agree, if everyone is so worried about acceleration, top end, etc, then they are looking at the wrong class of cars. When I bought my Jetta GLS TDI, I originally had targeted the Audi S4. Test drove it and the A4 1.8T. Both cars drove nice, accelerated well (especially the S4) etc. I also drove the G35, S60R, and C320. I was replacing a Corolla which had originally been my "third" vehicle (primary car, wife's car, third car), but became my primary car when I realized that I had put 3 times as many miles (due to gas mileage) on it as my "primary" car, 2000 Expedition XLT. I began to think, I bought the Corolla because of gas mileage, and if that is the case, then I should get something that get's better or comparable gas mileage and is more comfortable. Having owned a 98 Taurus SHO, I knew the novelty of the S4 and other "high power" sedans would wear off, as I don't feel a need to race everyone on the road.....I guess I've grown up a little. Then I began to think, I can get a car that is fully loaded, with leather, heated seats, etc......for half the cost of these vehicles and get twice the gas mileage. I would, however, have to sacrifice 0-60 times, maybe some cornering ability, and the ability to race every Tom, Dick and Harry on the road.

    To me, it was a no brainer...save $20K, get the better mileage, and still enjoy driving the car. I guess my priorities are just a little different than someone who needs to rocket up a 10% incline at 90mph. Being an Ex-Law Enoforcement Officer..AND having raced stock cars, I know there is a time and place to rocket around at speeds greater than 100mph, or being able to beat a guy into a corner, and the public streets is not that place. And, if that is what you fancy, a Hybrid or a Diesel is not the car you're looking for.

    Once again, just my $0.02....
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    dhanley:
    (if)"it means i may get killed merging onto the freeway on a short uphill ramp."
    __I know what you mean, like my old Vega. 0-60 in 45 seconds
    "i regularly get 35mpg in my 328"
    __Hey, that's pretty good!
    "Why compromise?"
    I was referring to compromising bad habbits out of driving style.
    Diesel, gas, hybrid, doesn't matter.
    If you could get 50 MPG from a hybrid diesel car driving "normally" without MPG in mind, in a pinch, if you had to, you could alter your style and get much higher MPG. (As if you didn't know)

    pusterracing:
    Sounds like there's a fine group here and we can agree!

    Thanks
    Steve
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "If you could get 50 MPG from a hybrid diesel car driving "normally" without MPG in mind, in a pinch, if you had to, you could alter your style and get much higher MPG."

    Exactly! That's just what i want, and, i think is even needed, for fuel efficient cars to really take off. I was thinking more along the lines of 35 if i drive carelessly ( fast passing, AC blasting, etc ) and 50 if i just cruise on the highway. I'm sure that's doable. A friend of mine rented a diesel c-class in germany and says he got 40mph cruising nearly 100mph on the autobahn.

    I have seen firsthand drivers get radically different mileage in cars. Someone who is always on the gas or brake gets awful mileage ( as well as making me nervous ).

    0-60 in 45 seconds??? I can't imagine it!
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "I was thinking more along the lines of 35 if i drive carelessly ( fast passing, AC blasting, etc ) and 50 if i just cruise on the highway."

    That's doable now...with the conventional diesel. I get 42mpg in 100% city driving, A/C on, and I'm average with the accelerator (sometimes aggressive, sometimes shift @ 2000rpms....just depends on my mood I guess). On the highway..cruising @ 80mph with the air on, I observe 48mpg. Not too shabby. I think if it were a diesel/electric hybrid, then those numbers would surely be elevated.

    BTW, 0-60 in the 04 Jetta GLS TDI (5M) is ~11.0-11.25 seconds....no rocket ship and won't win any drag races, but it is reasonable.....
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I have also found the diesel to be less effected by driving styles as other vehicles. I generally cruise in the 75-85mph range and get high 40's with my TDI. The times I've driven more reasonable or my wife has driven it, it gets high 40's. The only time I've ever REALLY seen a big increase in mpg due to slower driving was following some friends pulling a very large camper and they wouldn't run over 65mph. I got about 55mpg on that trip, but there was obviously some "drafting" going on from their camper.

    With the exception of a few weeks after installing the chip (novelty of just blasting around) my mileage has remained very steady even with the chip. It's really nice to have the extra power when needed. I've got a steep on-ramp I use daily and the TDI will be running 75mph without too much effort in time for merging. My 4x4 5.3L V8 Tahoe has to work quite hard to be at that speed and it's rated for 0-60 in around 8.3 seconds. 0-60 doesn't always equal "fast" in my book. Unless standing start drag-racing is all you do.
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "As i pointed out before, i regularly get 35mpg in my 328"

    Now, I don't want to seem like a "Nay! Sayer", but, how are you "regularly" getting 35mpg in a 328i without driving like a..what was it you said..."grandma"? EPA on the BMW 2.8L 190HP I6 in a 3 Series body was 20/29 manual (which by your posts I assume you drive, an automatic is rated @ 19/26)...so you are telling me that in mixed driving you regularly get 6 mpg more than the EPA HWY estimate, and you don't drive "grandma" like?

    Heck the BMW 1.9L I4 from the 318 is only rated at 23/31. I realize that those are EPA estimates and people can excced them (heck mine is rated @ 38/46, and I get 48 on the hwy, but that is ALL (+95%) hwy driving, and only 2 mpg above the estimate) but 6 mpg over the HWY estimate with mixed driving is hard to believe. Heck, that is 4 MPG over the HWY estimate for the 4 cyl in that car.

    25MPG regularly would be much more beleivable, especially in a car that is 7 years old, with seven years of wear and tear. Gas engines don't maintain thier efficiency like diesels do (meaning that after 7 years of wear and tear, I expect to still be getting within 1-2mpg as I am now in my TDI).
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    I can't speak for dhanley,
    But I drive speed limits in my HCH.
    EPA on my car is 47/49 (I think)
    and I get 58-64MPG AVG on every trip.
    Once and a while push near 70MPG.
    Every tank average 57-59MPG.
    That's about 10-15 over EPA.
    45 Mile commute twice a day, 1/2 country road, 1/2 freeway w/some very heavy city.

    I guess if driving the speed limits are grandma driving, pass pass me a cane!
    Thanks
    Steve
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    As i said in the first post which i was referring to ( i should have provided a link ) i can get 35mpg cruising on the highway @70-75mph. I used to always converge on 24.8 in mixed driving. It's not really driving slow ( i don't ) it's not being a dope and accelerating to red lights like like most people do. On the highay i try to stay out of the accelerate/brake game and drive the average speed of people around me. In fact, it's better, i think, to get out of the accelerate/brake cycle and go faster to just get a place where the cruise control can be used. And that's when it's fun to drop to third and pay a visit to mr redline.

    I could beat EPA in my old saab turbo, too, but if i pushed it, it would really suck the premium down. My ex used to average 17mpg in that car. The way to drive that car efficiently was to watch the boost gauge and keep it way to the left.

    I can share pics of my trip computer, if you like.

    I don't see a dichotomy in wanting efficiency and wanting to have some fun. I do a high acceleration run almost every time i drive but certainly not at every light.

    dave
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    I can see that in an Hybrid, because the EPA can't estimate how much you're going to be running on the batteries or battery assisted, but we're talking about a 100% gas engine. Edmunds.com seems to back up my belief about cars not exceeding the EPA estimates by a whole lot......

    "As with almost every vehicle we test, however, we discovered the Civic Hybrid's fuel economy fell short of the EPA's estimates.....38 mpg in our CVT-equipped test vehicle" from the 2003 Civic Hybrid Road Test

    "The EPA rates the Prius at 52 mpg in the city and 45 mpg on the highway......We officially observed a combined average of 41 mpg out of our test car" from the 2001 Prius Road Test

    I'm just saying that I find it hard to believe that one is regularly getting 35mpg out of a 1997 BMW 328i. This car is not built on any fuel saving technology, yet, in mixed driving, it is claimed that the driver can get 6mpg over the HWY estimate. I didn't average 35mpg with mixed driving in my 1998 Corolla (I averaged around 32 with mixed driving which I thought was pretty darn good), and it, with it's 1.8L I4, is a much more fuel efficient car than a 328i.

    Switching gears...Hybrids tend to shine in City driving. Maybe you can answer this for me, since I don't own one...Is it because they use more battery in the city? I know the shut the gas engine down at stops, but, is everything, say under 30mph, total electric? Just curious, really.....
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "...i can get 35mpg cruising on the highway @70-75mph..."

    My apologies....35MPG with most all hwy driving, @ closer to 65-70mph :)....I can believe out of the 328. And 25MPG mixed, I also beleive. I was under the impression (yes, you should have provided a link) that you were claiming 35MPG in mixed driving. So, now that that has been cleared up, and I have apologized.......

    I agree that there are cars that that provide a good mix of sports car like power and fuel economy, but those cars aren't in the same class as the Hybrids/Diesels. Hybrids/Diesels are at the extreme of fuel economy, and I don't beleive that I have sacrificed any drivability by buying a TDI....my car handles just as well as a Jetta 1.8T. My priorities when buying this car were comfort and fuel mileage. I got both, so for me to get the 1.8T would be sacrificing fuel mielage for 0-60 times....since the cars handle the same.....
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    If someone was as unclear as i was, i'd question them too.

    I am comitted to getting an efficent and green car next. But i think if i'm patient, the options will multiply soon. That 330 diesel needs to be brought here. ;) Even the 120d gets 50mpg and goes 0-60 in 7.9

    dave
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    pusterracing:
    "Hybrids tend to shine in City driving."
    __My greatest MPG maker is the 20 miles of country highway. I'm able to keep a steady 70-85MPG going 45-58MPH for most of the way. Only limited interruptions to my cruise.

    "Is it because they use more battery in the city?"
    __The good MPG numbers are NOT found while tapping into the battery.
    Battery is used to boost performance and to help on large hills.
    In stop-n-go traffic you can accelerate quickly up to traffic speed (using a little battery) then back off into lean burn and roll at 60- +120MPG.

    "I know the shut the gas engine down at stops, but, is everything, say under 30mph, total electric?"
    __Honda's Integrated Motor Assist only assists the ICE, and can not pull the car totally electric.
    Toyota Prius's Sentry Drive allows you to drive under 45MPH up to about 2 miles totally electric.

    Both systems are good and have their own advantages.
    Personally I wanted MAX MPG and also wanted to maximize my investment. Prius MSRP is thousands more than Honda- and while EPA is slightly better than Honda, The real "gammers" like Rick Reese, Wayne and (hopefully) myself chose Honda for it's MPG POTENTIAL. While Toyota's Sentry drive struggles for just 55MPG, possibly the Prius's ceiling, I've fallen just short of 70MPG in HCH and some Honda Insight pilots have better than 115MPG.

    There's more info on the car, driving tips etc in the "fun stuff" section of my website:
    http://www.steve-dez.us
    If you have the time.
    Honda & Toyota will offer most of their passenger vehicles as a hybrid option in a "few" months so plenty of choices then.

    Thanks
    Steve
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Prius MSRP is thousands more than Honda"

    Actually, MSRP of HCH with CVT is more than Prius with E-CVT.

    "While Toyota's Sentry drive struggles for just 55MPG, possibly the Prius's ceiling..."

    syn·er·gy : The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects.

    It is the Synergy drive. = ) HSD not only has potential to get great MPG, it can also use more fuel for extra performance since power delivery is about twice of ICE only car. It delivers wider performance <-> MPG range than Honda IMA design. Those Prius owners that like to play MPG game can get about 80 MPG. One fellow from Japan at freezing temperature got 80 or 90 MPG. He had warm air intake mod done like the Insights. I think he even has a screen shot as a proof.

    People had been driving a manual transmission for a long time, so the learning curve for MPG game is lower than HSD.

    scott04prius from Prius-2G wrote:

    The Prius does a fantastic job of achieving high mpg with all different types of driving styles....

    Gentle acceleration, max coasting (no arrows)
    To work: 73.2mpg at 61 degrees
    To home: 83.7mpg at 75 degrees (took a picture I was so excited)
    Combined: 78.1mpg

    Gentle acceleration, drove with screen off to see how important no
    arrows coasting is
    To work: 69.0mpg at 55 degrees
    To home: 77.8mpg at 77 degrees
    Combined: 73.1

    My commute is 23.2 miles each way. Work is about 145 ft higher than
    home and the total ascent/descent is about 800ft of gentle rolling
    hills.


    Dennis
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    Hi Dennis:
    Base Prius MSRP without any option packages is about even price with HCH.
    All options already come on HCH as Std.
    I shouldn't mention that Prius w/Option #9 MSRP costs almost $26,000. (Oops!)
    But that's been beat to death elsewhere.

    I don't want to change this thread topic at hand, so I'll just say again:
    "Both systems are good and have their own advantages."

    Those Prius figures are impessive!
    Thanks
    Steve
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Oh, I see that's how you are comparing. The thing with diesel is that, in order for them to achieve great mpg like VW Lupo, you have to sacrifice performance. Lupo 1.0L does 0-60mph in 35seconds. With hybrids, there is a choice. You can drive to maximize mpg or you can drive with performance like a normal car.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    They like to compare MPG to the Prius. BTW, 2004 E320 costs about $50K. A fully loaded Prius is half the price of the E320.

    "The latest technology is found in the Mercedes CDI model and amazingly you see no smoke, hear very little sound and detect no smell."

    Sounds good, Diesel came a long way. I wonder how clean the high-tech Diesel emission is compared to the current traditional gas engine cars. Obviously, it is no where close to the hybrid ultra low emission. Diesel still has a long way to go.

    "The average of all teams was 37.2 mpg, which is superb."

    The goal of that test with 13 teams was to achieve the best possible MPG out it it. The worse team got less than 31 mpg. That means, if a person isn't trying to achieve highest mpg, he/she would get in the high 20's. The article did not mention if the 105 mile hilly route was mostly downhill or uphill? They had to turn off AC and all electronic things including turning signals! And Kelly went on to say....
    "Bottom line, the 4,000 lb. luxury Mercedes E320 CDI is larger, heavier, faster, more comfortable, providing a &#147;no compromise&#148; luxury driving experience and was able to post an average fuel economy number exactly the same as the 2 new Toyota Prius Hybrids that I&#146;ve driven"

    "Yes, they pollute more for now, but diesels will be able to meet all 2007 emission standards by then."

    To meet future emission standards, the cost for Diesels will keep increasing. Prius already meet even the strict 2010 European standard and the cost for HV components will keep decreasing. Time is against Diesel and favors hybrids.

    Dennis
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    The goal of that test with 13 teams was to achieve the best possible MPG out it it. The worse team got less than 31 mpg. That means, if a person isn't trying to achieve highest mpg, he/she would get in the high 20's.

    Actually, I recently read the article from the team that got the 31mpg (can't find the link quickly....) and they were NOT driving for mpg. They decided right from the start they were going to run as hard as they could.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    > They like to compare MPG to the Prius.

    I would too, if i were getting comparable mileage to a much smaller, less powerful/fast, less safe vehicle.

    > The goal of that test with 13 teams was to achieve
    > the best possible MPG out it it. The worse team
    > got less than 31 mpg. That means, if a person
    > isn't trying to achieve highest mpg, he/she would
    > get in the high 20's.

    That is not true. The team that got that mileage flogged the car and ran the course as fast as possible, Most drove normally. The team that tried for best MPG acheived 45.6.

    > The article did not mention if the 105 mile
    > hilly route was mostly downhill or uphill?

    How could a 105 mile course that returns to the starting point be mostly downhill.

    > To meet future emission standards, the cost for > Diesels will keep increasing.

    How do you know this? Do you have an engineering argument? You might as well say that hybrids are in danger, because pollution laws will soon account for battery manufacture and disposal.

    In fact, a small percentage of biodiesel in diesel radically reduces emisisons. And this is even better for the environment because you're then using a renewable local fuel.

    "And Kelly went on to say....
    Bottom line, the 4,000 lb. luxury Mercedes E320 CDI is larger, heavier, faster, more comfortable, providing a &#147;no compromise&#148; luxury driving experience and was able to post an average fuel economy number exactly the same as the 2 new Toyota Prius Hybrids that I&#146;ve driven"

    Sounds good to me.

    dave
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Do you have an engineering argument?"

    Modern Diesels need extra catalysts(s) and filters to comply with current emission standards. The extra cost will come in the form of low sulfer fuel, electronic air management, and emission after-treatments. To meet future standards, they don't have technology yet. Cost for diesel will keep going up to reduce emission further.

    Diesel engine has evolve to optimal cylinder shape to reduce internal emission with the help of computer modeling. It still need external filtering to catch polluting particles. What do you do with the end of life catalysts and filters? Can you recycle them?

    "You might as well say that hybrids are in danger, because pollution laws will soon account for battery manufacture and disposal."

    First, let me clear up the vague use of "battery". There are many types of batteries. The most polluting types are lead-acid, Nickel Cadmium(Ni-CD)and button(Mercury) batteries. Lead, Cadmium and Mercury are heavy metal that pollutes the environment if they make contact with human directly or indirectly.

    Ni-Mh battery used in Prius is much more environmental friendly. Nickel and Metal Hydride are not heavy metal or toxic. Nickel can be found in 5 cents literally. There is still the need to recycle Ni-Mh batteries because Nickel recovered from recycling pays for itself! This is not true for other batteries.

    Electric cars requires 90KW battery to have decent driving range. Prius Ni-Mh battery is only 1.5KW(1/60th) battery size. So, 60 Prius would have the same amount of batteries as one electric car. Therefore, battery usage is not much of a big issue. Even if all cars become hybrids, it should still be manageable. Battery technology is improving and becoming more environmental friendly with Li-ion and Li-po.

    image

    It does pollute more to manufacture a hybrid than a gas only car but a hybrid makes it up with lower pollution from driving. Old cars will be the most offending kinds. Therefore, the faster we switch to hybrids, the lower overall environment pollution impact will be.

    image

    After driving Prius for 12,500 miles(20,000km), it breaks even with a traditional car. That's about a year of driving for most of us.

    Why stop at battery recyclibility? Why not recycling the whole car? Prius is easy to dismentle and 90% recycleable.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Diesels are more "mature" in Europe. This is how Prius come into diesel perspective.

    image.

    Prius use the least fuel, even less than small diesel cars.

    image.

    Diesel produces much more CO2 and NOx emission than Prius.

    "The new Prius is a stunning blend of futuristic design and technology that brings D-segment performance, comfort and space with B-class economy to today&#146;s motorists."

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    All, you've done is repeat your argument ( diesels will cost more ) without any backing whatsoever, then compare the prius to an inefficnent gas car.

    As to the question of filters, there are two approaches. 3m has a 100,000+ mile filter, ( not sure of cost ), and cheaper filters that are recyclable can go from 30-50K. Not nearly so bad as, say, oil filters, and surely never even close to battery costs. And, if you want to be exact, you could say that it compensates for having no spark plugs to remove and dispose of.

    Besides, i think the truly killer aspect is the ability to run on biodiesel in various blends. Vegetable oil is safe ( won't burn in a crash ) nonpolluting in manufacture, transport, and burn, and is carbon-neutral.

    Anyhoo, here's another interesting prototype. 94mpg!

    http://www.autointell.com/News-2002/October-2002/October-2002-1/O- - ctober-02-02-p5.htm

    I really feel like you're more interested in promoting toyota than in the environment or fuel economy.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Where did these come from? What "current diesel" is it being compared to? Comparing a prius to a hypothetical diesel shows nothing.

    dave
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "All, you've done is repeat your argument ( diesels will cost more ) without any backing whatsoever"

    I guess you only read what you want to read. I'll repeat one last time. "The extra cost will come in the form of low sulfer fuel, electronic air management, and emission after-treatments." Refining low sulfer diesel cost more. Adding electronic parts to manage air flow add complexity and cost more. Catalysts and filters for after-treatment cost more. Being green isn't free. Hybrids already have the green technology today but Diesel doesn't.

    "Besides, i think the truly killer aspect is the ability to run on biodiesel in various blends"

    Who cares? Gas engine can also use renewable Ethanol fuel. Hybrids can even use diesel engine, any kind of turbine engine, or even fuel cell stack. Your position in this issue is that one head is better than two. Mine is, two heads are better than one.

    "I really feel like you're more interested in promoting toyota than in the environment or fuel economy"

    I am promoting Hybrid Synergy Drive which can increase fuel economy, lower emission, increase power delivery and increase response time. HSD does all of those without a compromise. I've also argue against Honda's IMA hybrid design and favored Ford's Escape Hybrid. Bottom line, I believe that HSD is the way of the future.

    "Where did these come from? What "current diesel" is it being compared to? Comparing a prius to a hypothetical diesel shows nothing"

    They are from Toyota Motor Europe. If you have conflicting data, please post them as I am not close-mind and not bias toward Toyota. Those diesel numbers probably are the average of corresponding classes, thus valid.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "I guess you only read what you want to read. I'll repeat one last time."

    Wow, repeating a baseless claim again. That's a sure-fire debate tactic. Maybe you could try it in all caps next time.

    "The extra cost will come in the form of low sulfer fuel, electronic air management, and emission after-treatments." Refining low sulfer diesel cost more. Adding electronic parts to manage air flow add complexity and cost more. Catalysts and filters for after-treatment cost more."

    Hm. And do hybrids have no extra parts as compared to a gas engine? What are the relative costs of the batteries ( that will need to be replaced ) extra computer, extra electric motor, versus extra electronic and air control?

    Furthermore, are you aware that diesel cars are already significantly cheaper than the hybrid that toyota is selling at a loss? So even if your complete speculation was accurate, that wouldn't make diesel more expensive.

    "Who cares? Gas engine can also use renewable Ethanol fuel. "

    Well, omitting the points i made about that, which i assume you can't respond to as you deleted them, ethanol currently takes up as much energy in its manufacture as it provides, while biodiesel results in a high percentage net gain of energy.

    "They are from Toyota Motor Europe. If you have conflicting data"

    A P.R. graph with no axis labels and no point labels is not "data." What is the weight, drag coefficient, and performance of the compared vehicles?

    dave
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "And do hybrids have no extra parts as compared to a gas engine? What are the relative costs of the batteries ( that will need to be replaced ) extra computer, extra electric motor, versus extra electronic and air control?"

    HSD does not have an alternator and starter but it does have two powerful electric motors. HSD does not have a dedicated hardware for a transmission and torque converter but do have non-moving power control unit. HSD has a small battery for "caching" but do no need to carry so much fuel.

    In plain english, HSD is mechanically simpler than a traditional gas or diesel cars. The complexity is in the electricity and transistors since everything is going "computerize". The strong point of diesel used to be it's simplicity. Modern diesel is getting complicated with 30,000 PSI direct injection and electronic air management with computers, all for the name of lower emission. That defeats the advantage of diesel. Why not go hybrid and take advantage of synergy between combustion and electric motor power? Well, that will be a hybrid then.

    I am not sure how much Prius 1.5KW replacement battery will cost. 1.5KW of AA Ni-Mh rechargables can be bought for $560-$600 today. It shows how much mass production can lower the price of Ni-Mh. Who knows how much consumer rechargable batteries and hybrid batteries will cost in 10 years. It will be safe to say that the price should merge or at least in that direction.

    "Furthermore, are you aware that diesel cars are already significantly cheaper than the hybrid that toyota is selling at a loss? So even if your complete speculation was accurate, that wouldn't make diesel more expensive."

    LOL. I see your basis of your argument. You are thinking short-term. All I said was that over time, Diesel will become more expensive while hybrids will drop in price. BTW, am I suppose to feel bad that Toyota is loosing money now? As with many business, they are thinking long-term. We have VW Jetta TDI and Toyota Prius with MSRP about 20K. The last time I checked, Toyota is making more money than VW.

    "biodiesel results in a high percentage net gain of energy. "

    Well, at a cost! It will cost $40-50 a barrel to produce biodiesel. You have to consider the energy consumed in the manufacture of fertilizers and pesticides to produce the crops plus energy used in cultivating, harvesting, transporting and processing of the crop. Plus at colder temperature, viscosity increase so much that it becomes impractical.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    > Modern diesel is getting complicated with 30,000 PSI direct injection and electronic air management with computers, all for the name of lower emission. That defeats the advantage of diesel.

    You mean, the advantage of a 4000 pounds sub-7-second-to-60 getting the same observed mileage as a slow, light, prius?

    "LOL. I see your basis of your argument. You are thinking short-term. All I said was that over time, Diesel will become more expensive while hybrids will drop in price. BTW, am I suppose to feel bad that Toyota is loosing money now?"

    Well, i thought that by putting two and two together, you might figure out that your argument that the price increase you speculate for emissions standards you speculate might not make already-significantly-more-expensive hybrids more cost effective than diesel, as you claim.

    > We have VW Jetta TDI and Toyota Prius with MSRP about 20K.

    Jetta=17K, unsubsidized, and you can get it for less.

    > Well, at a cost! It will cost $40-50 a barrel to produce biodiesel. You have to
    > consider the energy consumed in the manufacture of fertilizers and pesticides to
    > produce the crops plus energy used in cultivating, harvesting, transporting and
    > processing of the crop.

    True, it's not 100% free energy. But when you're saying "so what, i can use ethanol" a net-energy-loss fuel, it matters a lot.

    dave
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Who cares? Gas engine can also use renewable Ethanol fuel

    I read the manual on our 5.3L flex-fuel Tahoe for operating with 80% ethanol. Forget about it. Lower power, more fuel consumption, cold start issues. Corn states requiring ethanol blends are getting less fuel economy. Sounds like the wave of the future (looking for my rolls eyes icon....)

    re: biodiesel "Plus at colder temperature, viscosity increase so much that it becomes impractical."

    Maybe if you're not mixing it properly. We left a mason jar filled with properly blended/treated biodiesel out in 0F weather this winter. Viscosity was equal to the warm diesel kept in the garage for comparison. Some fuel suppliers don't properly mix fuel and therefore it's not a useful resource (where is that rolls eyes icon??!!). If anything performance with biodiesel is equal to standard diesel. Better in my experience. Fuel mileage stays the same too.

    I'll take a hybrid diesel running on bio any day of the week. Just don't shrink the diesel motor to an underpowered state.
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "I am not sure how much Prius 1.5KW replacement battery will cost. 1.5KW of AA Ni-Mh rechargables can be bought for $560-$600 today.

    Well, here is what I found on that subject....

    "While there has been no recurring problems with earlier Prius batteries, the question of replacement cost was raised. It was estimated that the replacement cost for an entire battery pack is something around $3000."-West Coast press unveiling of the new 2004 Prius, -Bruce Meland

    While talking about which is more expensive.....I paid 21K for my 04 Jetta GLS TDI out the door TTT included. The Toyota Dealer wanted 25K for the Prius and wasn't coming off of the price, I told him I thought they started around 19K and his answer was..."It's all about supply and demand, these cars are in demand, that's why we can charge more than the 'sticker price' which is just the manufacturers suggested retail anyway". I thanked him for helping me make my decision on which car to buy. Since they didn't have one in stock, and I'm not paying above sticker for a car, I bought the Jetta and can't be any happier with my purchase.
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    With the news of the Jeep Liberty diesel, I've been doing much research. This thread is loaded with good info.

    To put in my $0.02. I've decided on diesel for now (I won't be in the market for another couple years though). Why? There are a few reasons. Because I keep my cars for a long time. A diesel engine will last. Hybrid is too new to know how long the electric motor system will last. I can also work on my diesel myself and it is easier to find a good diesel mechanic than hybrid. Diesel is also known to have great resale, even with high mileage. I will be using it to tow small things like my ATV/trailer. That screams for a diesel's torque.

    From my perspective, the mpg difference between hybrid and diesel is irrelevant. The mpg difference between a "traditional" gas engine to a fuel efficient alternative is what is important.
  • mindaugusmindaugus Member Posts: 20
    I was in Austria last summer and they are already using biodiesel in stations all over the country. They have the system just fine and I'm sure we could do it even better. Cost debate is a joke, no way hybrids are cheaper in the long or short run. I don't buy a car every couple years and no way I'd buy a used hybrid. One thing you have to shell out $3000 every time for a battery? Ridiculous. Diesels can run 300,000 miles before you have to replace such an important component. The hybrid batteries are risky in the long run and should only last warranty, then you have a useless heap of junk. Plus the most important factor farfignuggen! Why drive this smooth electrical box, I wanna feel like I'm driving. In fun factor diesels will always win.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Biodiesel is available here, it's just a bit pricey in some spots. A mix of biodiesel (2%) is quite common. 20% isn't hard to find either. Of course you can always make your own if you're so inclined. Or use waste vegetable oil. Possibilities are endless, really. My neighbor is some sore of chemical engineer and he's going to start making his own biodiesel. I've not really researched it too hard myself. I spend about $900 per year to travel 30,000 miles so it's not exactly worth the effort IMHO. Diesel was about $.22/gallon cheaper than 87 octane this morning at the truckstops.

    I'm not overly scared of the battery deal on the hybrids. If they were to warranty them for the life of the vehicle they might sell even faster, as it's obviously a concern for a lot of folks. At least the ones that really drive a lot and keep their vehicles for a long time. If I only drove 10k-15k miles per year like most folks, I would likely never buy any of the current crop of hybrids. I get tired of vehicles after a few years. This means most of our personal vehicles turn-over with 40k-70k miles. My business vehicles get the miles piled on, but I still turn them every couple years. Bad habit, but I'm not fiscally responsible when it comes to cars, I like them too much and like to mix it up. This TDI hasn't even begun to bore me, though. Might keep it awhile.
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    mindaugus - I forgot about the driving fun factor. Another point for diesel!

    sebring95 - remember that some of us are on eco-states (NY, CA, ME, etc). I don't know where NY stands with biodiesel. But I know that I can't buy a TDI VW here until 2006 when the sulphur content drops to <15ppm.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    What I find unfortuneate is that these states will hold a small 50mpg car to one standard, but you can buy a diesel pickup or gas guzzling car/minivan/truck on any corner because the pollution is ok for them. A Honda Odyssey belches the same smog-forming pollution as a Jetta diesel, and it also puts out more than double the greenhouse gas. But that's ok, just don't be driving around in those dirty cars!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "A Honda Odyssey belches the same smog-forming pollution as a Jetta diesel"

    The Jetta can't get nearly as low NOx emissions as the Honda in this example, and in addition it puffs out what is basically soot everywhere it goes. These are the two reasons that the CARB states have banned diesels for a while. In 2007 when the low sulfur diesel is fully available, NOx emissions should naturally come down as a result, which solves one half of that problem.

    Of course, that refers only to smog-forming emissions. You are correct that the Honda here is pushing out a lot more greenhouse emissions. However, it is the greenhouse emissions that the federal government is suing California over: it says that California isn't allowed to regulate those, only smog-forming emissions. So the feds are basically saying "yeah, control smog, but we forbid you to take a hand in reducing gas guzzlers that increase global warming."

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    According to the epa.gov website, the Odyssey emits 20.8 - 25 pounds of smog-forming pollutants per 15,000 miles. Same as the Jetta diesel. Same as quite a few other cars, although there are a lot of variables that aren't identified. I'm not so sure any of those are available in cali. Looks like their maps are goofy because there's another Odysssey that puts out around 12.5 pounds per 15,000 miles and it claims it's NOT sold in Cali.

    I wouldn't be surprised if VW could get these cars to qualify for those states, but it's probably not worth it because they seem intent on only selling a small number of them every year. They always sell out their allotment and leave it go at that. Personally doesn't bother me since the resale on my car is much better than any gasser I could have bought at this point.

    The HO Cummins that was available in '03 in the Dodges was not compliant with the carb states. The '04.5 models have been reworked and put out more power, are quieter, and are emissions compliant in all states. Of course the profits and number of trucks the sell here obviously make it worth it to figure out the upgrades.

    It's all money. If the manufacturers knew they could sell these 50mpg cars like hot-cakes (and make money doing so like they do heavy trucks, suv's, etc.) they'd beat the emissions requirements.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    No way VW could get them certified for 50 states; the high sulfer content in US diesel fuel makes them completely incompatible with the higher CARB regulations.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You are looking at the engine. You should be looking at the wheel. Lower gear will give more torque to the wheel but how fast can you go on that gear? That's why you need higher gear to go faster, thus more horsepower at the wheel.

    Horsepower at wheel = Horsepower at Crank &#150; Horsepower &#147;Lost in Translation&#148;

    Assume no loss, you&#146;ve got the same HP at the wheel as you would have at the crank. At 30 mph, gear 1 will provide more thrust (more &#147;torque multiplication&#148;) than in gear 4. This also means that the lower gear is providing more horsepower (crank, hence wheel), at that speed. Remember, horsepower is not just an indicator of speed it is also an indicator of thrust.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Na, the thrust is the torque. Hp is the amount of work(RPM) that torque does. Higher gear can work longer with less thrust(torque). Without higher gear, you can not do any more work when you hit the redline.

    Dennis
This discussion has been closed.