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Hybrid vs Diesel

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Comments

  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I found some numbers. Car and driver tested the Prius back in February:

    40mph-60mph = 7.9 seconds
    40mph-70mph = 9.7 seconds

    Call it 40-65mph = 8.8 seconds

    According to some independent data on TDI's, I've found acceleration runs in 3rd gear (of a manual tranny, stock TDI) from 40 to 65mph in around 6 to 6.5 seconds. Lightly modified TDI's were turning the same speeds in 5 to 5.5 seconds. Heavily modified TDI's are turning it in 3.5 seconds. Additionally, these were not full-bore runs since they were limited to 3rd gear for consistent comparison to other TDI's.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Thanks for the post. For me the hybrid vs diesel is a false comparison in that I think that if the hybrid technology does the job it is supposed to do then a diesel hybrid is a good mating which would be better than a unleaded gas hybrid mating.

    The government gave the big three 1.5B in R&D to come up with a "clean sheet" higher mpg performer and each of the big three came up with diesels and they got like 98-99 mpg.

    This is probably a gross simplification, but the hybrid attempts to utilize electric motors that simply have HUGE instant on power and more importantly torque at a very low rpm range. So that would account for why the thunderous 295 # ft of torque is really not noticeable during any 0-60 acceleration run. The next real question or tech problem is the gas or diesel for that matter is not used 100% of the time to "motivate" So the question can now become what % of "non motivational" time can the diesel or gas engine be shut off. The % would be reflective of the actual fuel savings. Also at low rpm 0-1200 you need neither gas or diesel. So again the fuel savings will be a formula of % on and off. The other problem is how much actual weight does the hybrid add to the vehicle and what is the lost mpg due to its weight. So for example if you could mate a TDI engine in the Honda Insight (less weight anyway) you might get even more mph due to the weight loss.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    What fuel is Nascar using?
    Alcohol?
    Gasoline?
    I'm not really sure.
    If diesel had all this extra passing power in reserve pulling 1.5Klb trailers at high rpm then why don't the pro racers use it?
    Are you using your Cummins truck as your day to day commuter vehicle?
    If you're a contract/construction worker etc I could see that but not if like most of us who commute to an office setting.
    Are you saying that my same Civic fitted with diesel can pull a medium size Coleman trailer...say 1.7Klb radically passing people driving on the mountain hills and still get 58-65MPG?
    My Hybird can not tow anything but that is my commuter car and not a primary family vehicle or truck so towing doesn't matter.
    Thanks
    Steve
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So how many trailers do you see pro racers pulling?

    Not to mention the fact they get (if lucky) 4 mpg on a race and almost all engines are torn down after a race? So what do you think the octane rating is on union 76 fuel?

    Point being there is a Grand Canyon Chasm difference between racing and normal everyday driving.

    Most of towing implies a frame that is suitable for towing. Not looking at the specifications I am guessing that the Honda Civic is lacking in the frame department.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "What fuel is Nascar using?"

    high-octane gasoline

    "If diesel had all this extra passing power in reserve pulling 1.5Klb trailers at high rpm then why don't the pro racers use it?"

    Well, for one thing, NASCAR has lots and lots of rules. You have to have naturally-aspirated pushrod engines between 350 and 358ci's, a coil distributor, bore between 4.2 and 4.23 ( or something like that ). They get about 750HP out of 5.7L. Pretty good, but there are turbo saab 2.0L motors putting out more, as well as turbo supras!

    If you could drop a hopped-up modern 5.7L turbodiesel in one of those cars, it'd do quite well. Not to mention, a lot of other gassers.

    What he was doing was responding to the claim that diesel won't pass as quickly as a hybrid because the fuel burns slow. That's just a silly claim, really. Passing power is a simple power/weight issue. Towing is another topic entirely.

    dave
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    Thanks for the Nascar clarity.

    So what you are saying that the folks who modify stock cars for the Saturday night drag strip/local races are missing out because they use high octane gasoline and not diesel?
    Thanks
    Steve
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "What fuel is Nascar using?"

    Just to answer this question...Sunoco Supreme Racing Gasoline @ 112 Octane. Sunoco is the "Official" gas of Nascar, so all cars use the same fuel. The cars get on average 4-6 mpg. And can pull 9500rpm no problems.

    Why don't they use diesels? Because Nascar mandates every component on the vehicles (going back 50+ years) and when the sport was conceived, they used the stock powerplants in the cars....which were gas. So as the sport has evolved over the years, Nascar has stuck with the gas engine, even though nothing on the car is "factory stock" by any stretch of the imagination these days.

    Just thought I'd answer that particular question.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    What fuel is Nascar using?
    Alcohol?
    Gasoline?
    I'm not really sure.
    If diesel had all this extra passing power in reserve pulling 1.5Klb trailers at high rpm then why don't the pro racers use it?


    Some racers use diesel. Rally cars/endurance cars etc. Seems that most here are discussing the economiccs and performance aspects of these choices. I believe there's been several land speed records set with diesel (and jetA too, hmmmm). Last time I checked, NASCAR still had 4 barrel carbs strapped to the top of their motors, wheeeee!

    Are you using your Cummins truck as your day to day commuter vehicle?

    Heck no, my Jetta TDI is my daily driver. I have two diesel pickups that are used for our stables. Very rare they don't have 8,000# - 16,000# hooked to them. The '01 has over 130k miles and the '03 just passed 40k.

    Are you saying that my same Civic fitted with diesel can pull a medium size Coleman trailer...say 1.7Klb radically passing people driving on the mountain hills and still get 58-65MPG?

    I doubt it. But it would do it better and more effciently than whatever's currently powering your civic. A Jetta TDI is rated to tow 1500# and from what I've gathered it will do so fairly effortless and still gets in the 40's.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    YUP! Kind of makes you wonder why they are not using hybrids! :)
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    Didn't mean to just restate what Dave posted...I didn't type fast enough...his wasn't up there when I started. :)
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    So what you are saying that the folks who modify stock cars for the Saturday night drag strip/local races are missing out because they use high octane gasoline and not diesel?

    Actually, there's generally a diesel truck or two around the dragstrip spanking hot-rods and hopped up civics. The Cummins/Powerstroke/Duramax boys can put on quite a show. If you want I'll look up the vids I have from around the net. 7,000# trucks running 11 to 13 second 1/4 miles depending upon tuning.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I was at a performance tuners shop that offers tuner services for higher end cars and dyno services. I heard a funny story about a 792 hp and 1400# ft of torque diesel. (monster, obviously) At the start of the dyno run there were 5-7 folks in the shop. Near the end of the run, folks were bailing out of the shop due to the NOISE and the fact the shop looked like a black cloud and was going to explode at any minute. When the owner operator looked around after the shut down he was wondering what happened to the folks as he was the only one in the building left! :) Also since the dyno only registered 1400# ft of torque, they could only say for sure that it was MORE than 1400#s. :)
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "So what you are saying that the folks who modify stock cars for the Saturday night drag strip/local races are missing out because they use high octane gasoline and not diesel?"

    No--i'm not saying that at all!

    Gasoline engines typically get more HP/L than diesel. They are also more plentiful and therefore cheaper to upgrade ( parts availability and so forth ). What diesel options do they have? There is just the TDI here now, and it's only 1.9L But these cars are also not fuel efficient and not reliable.

    The "problem" with diesel is that due to the combustion process ( not fuel burning speed ) the revs are practically limited to 4500 max. Power peak may be even lower. Since horsepower is RPM * torque, that limits horsepower. Interestingly, to a typical driver who may never rev over 4000 the diesel may feel very very strong. My ex used to never rev cars over 3000, she thought this'd break it, but i rev my bmw to 6500 every time i drive it. Different strokes for different folks.

    However, because diesels are essentially all lean-burn, and fuel isn't injected until it's SUPPOSED to detonate, turbocharging them isn't a big deal; we can run 40psi all the time if we want. In a gas engine, the lean burn and preigntion of running high, hot boost would destroy the engine quickly. It's one of the advantages of diesel and why basically all of them are turbocharged.

    But, there have been diesel racing successes. A bmw 320(2.0L) turbodiesel won the 24-hour nurburgring race. A TDI jetta won its class in the SCCA rally series.

    There will (supposedly) be a 500hp 5.0L diesel v10 entered in the le mans 24-hour race this june. It's expected to not be as fast as the others, but also to refuel much less often. Who knows.

    Audi CEO has stated that he wants to see a diesel audi win le mans before he retires. This makes sense, really. There is a diminishing return from going from 500 to 700hp that may well be offset by the tractability of more torque and diminished need for fuel stops. They have a 650HP model apparently slated for 2005.

    Of course, this is all pretty divorced from ecological street car issues, isn't it?

    However, i hope we don't think diesel can't pass because the fuel burns slow. :)

    dave
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    A great % of BMW's, for example, sold in Europe are diesels. They say that 33% of the Euro fleet is diesel and new car sales approach 45%.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Diesel is good for towing and high load situation but lacks in passing power. To make up for that shortcoming, the car will need a bigger engine. The same reason we need a bigger gas engine to get more torque. There is no way around for diesel slow burning characteristic the same way gasoline has less energy than diesel. Just increase the displacement or do hybrid.

    Dennis
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    In ten years of development, there have been huge improvement in diesel technology (compare diesels available in 1994 to those now). I expect the same for hybrid technology. Prius was launched in 1997, followed by Insight, and Civic Hybrid, there is little “generational evolution”. It won’t surprise me to see a huge jump in exhibition of the potential (performance, fuel consumption and emissions) that hybrid technology promises. We might see some of it later this year!
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "You got any numbers to prove these performance specs you're always using?"

    I thought it is common knowledge by now. I don't have numbers but have graphs straight from Toyota.

    image.
    image.

    Remeber, Prius only has 76hp output from 1.5L engine versus 160hp from 2.4L camry. I don't know about Allion 2.0L engine output. It is amazing how much 76hp ICE HSD drivetrain can output at mid-range.

    This one is from Motor Trend about Lexus 400h.
    "While the 400h achieves 36 city/31 highway mpg and meets California's Super-Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) requirements, it is the power and its delivery that excites us."

    Dennis
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    So the Car and Driver data basically backs up the Toyota data. The Prius takes about 4.8 seconds to go from 30-50.

    Not exactly what I consider passing speeds but I digress... Unfortuntely I don't have any 30-50mph data on a stock TDI to compare it to. I do have numbers from an automatic TDI running upgraded nozzles ($250 on any street corner) and it turns 30-50mph in 3.1 seconds. I would bet a stock TDI is about neck and neck with the Prius in terms of passing speed considering we've got amost 2 seconds to work with. Not much of a bet considering a stock auto TDI runs almost exactly with a Prius 0-60. So they both have poor passing power IMHO.

    Unless you throw a couple hundred bucks at the TDI then it's up there with many other non-economical cars even. Or if you own the manual transmission which is quicker than the auto TDI by a second or so to begin with.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I found some numbers. Car and driver tested the Prius back in February:
    40mph-60mph = 7.9 seconds
    40mph-70mph = 9.7 seconds"


    2004 Prius Top-gear acceleration,
    30–50 mph 5.5
    50–70 mph 7.9
    Street start, 5–60 mph 11.3
    C/D-observed fuel economy: 42 mpg

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=7701&page_number=4

    2004 VOLKSWAGEN JETTA GL TDI 4 Cylinder 5 speed auto:
    Street start, 5-60 mph: 11.9 sec
    C/D-observed fuel economy: 32 mpg

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=16&article- _id=7817

    This is not even a fair comparison because Prius ICE is only 76hp 1.5L while Jetta has 100hp 1.9L ICE. Sorry I don't have numbers for Jetta 30-50mph or 50-70mph for direct comparison. But Prius will smoke Jetta in 5-60mph acceleration.

    "According to some independent data on TDI's, I've found acceleration runs in 3rd gear (of a manual tranny, stock TDI) from 40 to 65mph in around 6 to 6.5 seconds"

    Are you sure those are not V6 numbers?

    Dennis
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    This is not even a fair comparison because Prius ICE is only 76hp 1.5L while Jetta has 100hp 1.9L ICE. Sorry I don't have numbers for Jetta 30-50mph or 50-70mph for direct comparison. But Prius will smoke Jetta in 5-60mph acceleration.

    Now we've gone from "diesels don't have passing power" to "this is not a fair comparison". Whatever. And you posted the numbers, the Prius is .5 seconds quicker 5-60mph then claim it "smokes" the TDI.

    Are you sure those are not V6 numbers?

    Yes I'm sure. It's a data sample for all TDI's. I gave you the numbers for the stock 90hp TDI's. We don't get any V6 TDI's here in the states. I didn't see any stock 100hp PD TDI's like Car and Driver tested above. For comparison there are other cars listed for baselines. A chipped 1.8T Jetta does the same 3rd gear 40-65mph run in 3.29. The fastest 1.9 TDI had moderate upgrades and turned a 3.5 second run.

    I don't have 30-50mph top-gear runs on a TDI either. The only other test data is from 60-90mph in 4th gear. Results range from 6 seconds for the more modified to 10 seconds for a stocker.

    I would assume the top-gear accleration figures C&D show are on a full charge? How many of these runs can you do before the battery can't keep up?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    5-60mph 11.3s Prius
    5-60mph 11.9s TDI

    These are the numbers you posted and you state "But Prius will smoke Jetta in 5-60mph acceleration.".
    .6 seconds is nearly irrelevant in off track driving. And the TDI number you quoted is for automatic transmission which is slower than manual. Manual TDI is going to accelerate faster than Prius in nearly every measure of performance. TDI has 177lb/ft torque at only 1800 rpm.
    0-? is not worthy of an endless debate when comparing a TDI and Prius as their performance is very similar. The exterior, interior and handling of the two cars are entirely different and will appeal to different types of buyers.
    For fuel efficiency they are both good choices.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Now we've gone from "hybrids are so much faster than a diesel" to "this is not a fair comparison"."

    Nope. HSD with 76hp ICE is still faster than diesel with 100hp ICE. I only pointed out that it isn't fair because of a great difference in horsepower. Hybrid is still faster.

    "I would assume the top-gear acceleration figures C&D show are on a full charge? How many of these runs can you do before the battery can't keep up? "

    Doesn't matter if it is full charge or not. NiMH battery can discharge about the the same kilowatts regardless of State Of Charge(SOC). Prius can do 5-60mph infinite runs because the battery can be recharged on demand. The question should be how often and closely do you want to do it? My guess is that Prius can do 0-60mph nonstop about 10-15 times before the battery goes below 50% SOC(minimum threshold). There is also more power coming from regenerative braking when you stop from 60-0mph. BTW, if you drive like that, it would be abusing the car anyway, unrealistic driving situation.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    ".6 seconds is nearly irrelevant in off track driving."

    It is relevant because Prius only has 76 horsepower gas engine and Jetta TDI has 100 horsepower diesel engine. Imagine how much faster will be if HSD hybrid has 100hp engine? It can even give better fuel economy than diesel 32mpg.

    "These are the numbers you posted and you state "But Prius will smoke Jetta in 5-60mph acceleration."

    Maybe I should use the word "green" instead of "smoke"? It would be a bad choice because green is for low emission and smoke is for acceleration. Prius will do both green and smoke Jetta TDI.

    Dennis
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_sto- ry_top5

    Hybrid mileage inflated? quote- Hybrid cars are hot, but not as hot as their owners, who complain that their gas mileage hasn't come close to well-advertised estimates.

    Don't knock the car companies for inflated claims: Experts say the blame lies with the 19-year-old EPA fuel-efficiency test that overstates hybrid performance. -end quote

    quote- Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg. -end quote

    31.4 mpg! Ooops
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "It is relevant because Prius only has 76 horsepower gas engine and Jetta TDI has 100 horsepower diesel engine."

    Interesting. If you follow this topic, you might become aware that the prius has an electric motor as well, augmenting the gas engine.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    My point earlier is that diesel is NOT the perfect solution for all vehicles and neither is Hybrid for all vehicles.
    Even educated people about diesel aren't going to flock to them just like they don't all flock to Hybrid yet.
    Today's Hybrid has a better chance of market success for reasons previously mentioned.
    That's a big reason I back the Hybrid.
    As far as europe goes...well that's a different board.
    Thanks
    Steve
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "DiPietro says most drivers will get between 75 to 87 percent of the rated mileage, with individual variations based on driving habits and traffic route."

    In that article, 26 mpg for Civic Hybrid and 35mpg for Prius are probably the worse cases. Some Prius drivers go beyond EPA numbers. One Prius driver got 85.7mpg on 967 mile on one tank! He is trying to achieve 1,000 miles on one tank(11.9 gallons).

    image

    Again, most Prius drivers got 45mpg during winter and probably 50mpg in the summer.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Interesting. If you follow this topic, you might become aware that the prius has an electric motor as well, augmenting the gas engine."

    All the energy and power in Prius come from 76 horsepower engine. The way HSD wisely deliver power is faster than diesel or gasoline traditional cars. There are no shortcomings in low end torque nor highway passing power. That's why your position in diesel vs. hybrid is weak because two heads are acutally better than one. One guy can't do everything by himself. You need synergy effect from a team(two or more). You can clearly see it if you watch sports.

    Dennis
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "DiPietro says most drivers will get between 75 to 87 percent of the rated mileage, with individual variations based on driving habits and traffic route."

    "In that article, 26 mpg for Civic Hybrid and 35mpg for Prius are probably the worse cases."

    So, do you see how this applies to your quoting the EPA for the prius ( which you now admit most drivers won't get ) versus the worst case you can dig up for a diesel?

    (not to mention the same "logic" for passing times)
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "So, do you see how this applies to your quoting the EPA for the prius ( which you now admit most drivers won't get ) versus the worst case you can dig up for a diesel?"

    I never said Prius gets it's EPA rating. Some get below EPA, some get above depending on how they drive but overall better than diesel mpg. Jetta TDI 32mpg versus Prius 42mpg is from the same C&D testing. A fair comparison, not the worse case for diesel.

    For passing power, we don't have numbers to do direct comparison. But I've shown that HSD Prius has better mid-range passing power than Camry gas engine. Unless you can prove that diesel cars have more passing power than gas engine cars, by induction logic, HSD hybrid has more passing power than Diesel.

    Dennis
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    This was a real world test of mpg by CR, not worst case.
    Here are some more CR results
    CR 150 mile loop: VW Golf TDI 50mpg, Prius 48mpg
    CR highway: VW Golf TDI 54, Prius 50mpg

    TDI (5sd manual) obtains higher real world mpg AND accelerates faster to 0-60 mph, 5-60 mph than Prius or Civic Hybrid.
    Not induction logic;) just facts.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    A variable nozzle turbine and an intercooler help the turbodiesel produce 201 hp at 4200 rpm and 369 lb-ft at 1800 to 2600 rpm. The diesel engine will propel the 3835-pound car from 0 to 60 mph in an estimated 6.8 seconds. In comparison, the gas-fed E320 makes 221 hp at 5600 rpm and 232 lb-ft at 3000 to 4800 rpm. The gas car is 0.3 second slower from 0 to 60 mph.

    Hmm, diesel version of Mercedes E class with less HP than gasoline version is somehow faster. How can that be? I'll have to use induction logic to figure it out......could it have anything to do with the 369 lb/ft of torque?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    It is easy to obtain or exceed the EPA estimate for a diesel, not so for a hybrid.

    When tested by automotive journalists (and they are hard on a car) the E320 CDI exceeded the mpg for 10 of 12 drivers.

    quote- And finishing dead last in fuel economy, we still managed 30 mpg. Average "fleet" mileage was 38 mpg, with a range from ours, 30 mpg, all the way up to 47, and ten cars of twelve (sorry, Mercedes) above the average.-end

    EPA is 27mpg / 37mpg for E CDI and the average for the group 38 mpg. Wow!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "This was a real world test of mpg by CR, not worst case.
    Here are some more CR results
    CR 150 mile loop: VW Golf TDI 50mpg, Prius 48mpg
    CR highway: VW Golf TDI 54, Prius 50mpg

    TDI (5sd manual) obtains higher real world mpg AND accelerates faster to 0-60 mph, 5-60 mph than Prius or Civic Hybrid.
    Not induction logic;) just facts. "

    Actually this mirrors my slightly over one year and 28,000 mile experiences with a 2003 VW Jetta TDI. Actually my wife in a 30 min highway town country commute usually takes 1-1.5 hrs to go 25 miles one way and her consumption is 48-51 mpg. When we take it on highway trips I will get 45-48 mpg but it is at close to XXX cruising speed with 3/4 people in the car luggage and AC roaring. This car is a lot of fun to drive.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Here are some more CR results
    CR 150 mile loop: VW Golf TDI 50mpg, Prius 48mpg
    CR highway: VW Golf TDI 54, Prius 50mpg"


    Thanks for comparing E-CVT to manual transmission. Where are the results for city driving? Any particular reason you didn't post them? EPA numbers for Golf TDI is 38 mpg / 46 mpg. CR numbers are higher than EPA? How come CR highway numbers are higher than 150 mile loop? How about comparing 90% of the market preference auto tranny to E-CVT?

    "TDI (5sd manual) obtains higher real world mpg AND accelerates faster to 0-60 mph, 5-60 mph than Prius or Civic Hybrid."

    Where are the numbers? Manual transmission also need work from human. And human do make mistakes and those numbers are the results without "human error". Does Golf TDI has potential to achieve 85.7mpg? I've shown that Prius is faster than Jetta TDI auto in 5-60mph and gets better mpg. 100hp diesel should be ashamed because a hybrid with 76hp ICE is competitive(in some case, superior) in performance and fuel economy. I will not even bring up emission issue because it can get ugly. =D

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Hmm, diesel version of Mercedes E class with less HP than gasoline version is somehow faster. How can that be?"

    Just open your mind wider and look at all driving situations such as 5-60mph, 30-50mph, 50-70mph, top speed, etc.... Now, you are comparing diesel with gas only car. To bring you back to this topic, it is diesel vs. hybrid. BTW, E320 disel is too dirty to legally sell it here in New York.

    Dennis
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    CR mpg numbers for 150 mile loop (mix of city and highway) are much higher for diesel.

    qoute Dennis - 100hp diesel should be ashamed because a hybrid with 76hp ICE is competitive(in some case, superior) in performance and fuel economy- end

    Are you intentionally omitting the electric motor HP for the hybrid? For the Prius Toyota states 110HP net. For Honda Civic Hybrid the net is 100.4HP.

    Bottom line- human making error on 150 mile loop obtained 50 mpg with TDI. How about that number?
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "When tested by automotive journalists (and they are hard on a car) the E320 CDI exceeded the mpg for 10 of 12 drivers"

    Misleading. Two of them were hard on the car and they got something like 30mpg. The others drove with light footed, giving average maximum possible real world 38mpg. The team that got 47mpg had to turn off AC and all electronics including turning signal(compromise and dangerous). That mean, if you don't drive light footed all the time, you will get around 34mpg. Honda Accord V6 gas can get around 30mpg and cleaner emission. What is so amazing about E320 diesel?

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Are you intentionally omitting the electric motor HP for the hybrid? For the Prius Toyota states 110HP net. For Honda Civic Hybrid the net is 100.4HP."

    Yes, because the electric motors in HSD are also powered by the gas engine.

    "CR mpg numbers for 150 mile loop (mix of city and highway) are much higher for diesel."

    That explains it then. =D I still wonder why diesel scores low on EPA. Any ideas?

    Dennis
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote Dennis- Unless you can prove that diesel cars have more passing power than gas engine cars-end The Mercedes E320 was a direct example of diesel more power than gas.

    When people don't like the answers to their questions they cry "off topic". Hmmm...
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Diesel has high NOx and particulate emissions. EPA allows the diesel fuel in USA to be the dirties, highest sulfur content of anywhere in the world which causes higher emissions.
    Any ideas why EPA allows high sulfur content?
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Already been posts about the fuel being cleaned up from 4000PPM to 15 over the next few years.

    It's just one way for dishonest polemics to try to distract from their failed point.

    dave
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    I've shown that Prius is cleaner and more fuel efficient than European low sulfer diesel automobiles there too. To be specific, here is what Toyota of Europe claims. "The new Prius is a stunning blend of futuristic design and technology that brings D-segment performance, comfort and space with B-class economy to today’s motorists." I made my point well. Where is your basis of "my failed point" claim? Did you ever come up with counter example to disprove the data I provided in msg#288?

    Dennis
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    CR 150 mile loop: VW Golf TDI 50mpg, Prius 48mpg
    CR highway: VW Golf TDI 54, Prius 50mpg

    Here is proof that Prius is less fuel efficient than a Golf TDI. And there are several European diesels that are more fuel efficient than a Golf TDI.

    As to emissions, what emissions will the Prius have when there is no more petroleum to burn? It will truly be a zero emissions vehicle then. Diesel fuel does not require petroleum. Vegetable and plant oils or animal fats will do just fine.

    I guarantee the chart in #288 was not based on biodiesel emissions.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "I've shown that Prius is cleaner and more fuel efficient than European low sulfer diesel automobiles there too. To be specific, here is what Toyota of Europe claims. "

    Repeating a general bit of toyota pr that just says "good emissions" isn't proof of anything.

    I understand that you're enthusiastic about the prius, and that's great. There are other hybrid enthusiasts and diesel enthusiasts making excellent points and sharing information. But continuing to repeat your assertions in the face of people posting evidence ( mpg figures, acceleration times ) is simply dishonest, and can only make people angry, hurting your "side."

    After all a lot of "us" are interested in hybrids, but hate to see incorrect facts used to promote them at the expense of other viable alternatives. I am interested in both hybrid and diesel. I'd correct someone saying that a hybrid won't make it up a 50 foot hill. But all we have here is you.

    If you just said something along the lines of "it seems that diesels may be competitive with power and economy. But i want low emissions now, not when cleaner fuel comes here. Furthermore, I think that there may be problems with emissions that reduced sulphur in fuel may not cure ( factual evidence )" then we could stop beating the same few points to death and move on.

    dave
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Let me first correct you. I am enthusiastic about hybrid synergy drive, not just Prius.

    Car and Driver Prius with 42mpg versus Jetta TDI auto with 32mpg and performance data is hishonest? Why are you bias and acknowledge only Golf TDI manual tranny data?

    I am on the same boat as you. I correct people when they claim things like E320 CDI is heavier than Prius yet as fuel efficient as Prius. That is the issue that started my defense for Prius, if you go back and look.

    I understand that you changed your stand from pro diesel to neutral as you learn more about hybrids, especially HSD. You are now more knowledgable about transmssion as well. Now, you know high rate power delivery of HSD drivetrain combined with E-CVT. I must say, being neutral and pointing out other poster's mistake is easy from your own confort zone. What is dangerous about you is, if I push your buttson, you come after me with those foolish posts in other threads as well. I know you deleted some of those posts but it's alright. I am cool with that.

    Dennis

    P.S: BTW, transmission does multiply and divide horsepower. HP is a function of torque. If a transmission multiply and divide torque, it will affect horsepower as well.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Two of them were hard on the car and they got something like 30mpg. The others drove with light footed, giving average maximum possible real world 38mpg. The team that got 47mpg had to turn off AC and all electronics including turning signal(compromise and dangerous). That mean, if you don't drive light footed all the time, you will get around 34mpg.

    Which appears to be the exact case for the hybrids. Drive them with a light foot all the time and you might get the EPA numbers. Drive rediculously slow and you might exceed them. Yeah sure, there's a guy getting 80mpg. I've seen similar figures for TDI's, you just have to drive about 45mph which is the exact sweet spot for the motor in terms of fuel consumption. Might be ok if you want to die trying for 1000 miles to a tank of fuel. Anyone that wants to drive conservatively will squeeze the maximum mpg out of that particular vehicle. There are TDI folks that regularly get closer to 60mpg.

    I can drive MY TDI just like I would any other vehicle with performance that will smoke a Prius and still day in and day out get 45-50mpg. Here's my daily commute (at least the last few weeks):

    14 miles of two-lane hilly backroads, I run 60-70mph generally. Slowest speed is 45mph for a couple switchbacks. Sometimes pass a couple people which a usually quick blasts from 50mph-80mph.

    6 miles of in-town driving.

    90 miles of highway, generally set the cruise on 75mph as that's a safe spot to avoid tickets. In safer zones I'll regularly run upto 80-90mph for a few stretches. Probably 10 miles total at the higher speeds on this particular highway.

    I would most definetely look closely at a hybrid if most of my driving was around town or stuck in traffic. I'm not willing to sacrifice the poor driving dynamics and poor performance capabilities as a long-range commuter at this time. If they get the power up and the cars to drive better, then I'll look closer. I'll be curious once the performance goes up, we'll see if the economy can hold-up as well.
  • bricknordbricknord Member Posts: 85
    Is there any real data about OVERALL pollution out there? While of course, the actual tailpipe emissions of a modern diesel ( i.e. VW TDI ) are higher than say, a Civic Hybrid, I inquire about the BIG picture...

    1.) How much pollution is generated in the manufacture of toxic battery cells used in hybrid cars that is not generated in the manufacture of a diesel car? I can't imagine that there isn't some incredibly environmentally-unfriendly factory spewing stuff into the air, water, and soil around the plant while manufacturing battery cells.

    2.) How much pollution to the environment will occur when these hybrid cars inevitable age and are scrapped? Is there any infrastructure in place today to recycle or dispose of tens of thousands of battery packs/cells in any sort of eco-friendly way whatsoever? Will disposal of used batteries in mass quantities generate a lot of pollution in other forms than pure tailpipe emissions? Will they be buried under a mountain in Nevada?

    3.) What would the cost be to properly dispose of tens of thousands, if not more, of these toxic battery cells per year, even if a reliable and safe infrastructure to do so existed?

    4.) Regarding emissions not at the tailpipe but at the pump. Is not diesel fuel less volatile than gas? When you fill a diesel car, would it not be a correct assumption that far less vapor is released into the atmosphere than filling a gasoline-engined car? Would the indirect emissions of gas pumps versus diesel pumps not be far higher and hence have a greater environmental cost? Most pumps I've seen across the country have little or ineffective vapor-recovery systems.

    If anyone can respond to these issues with FACTS, I would appreciate it and it would go a long way to justifying hybrids to me.

    I just wonder if we aren't just trading one form of pollution for another in the long run. Let's not even use the diesel to Hyrid example for a minute. Take a Civic with the gas engine, very low emissions. Most of the car can easily be recycled or reused at the end of it's lifespan. The engine block can even be melted down.

    Lastly, I mention a small point, that of safety. If I am in a severe collision in a diesel car, the likelihood of fire or explosion is virtually nil compared to a car that uses gasoline, due to diesel being far less volatile. If I'm in a gas-hybrid car, the small chance exists of fire from the gasoline and/or injury from ruptured battery cells perhaps? Admittedly a small concern, but one nonetheless. I have seen a few accidents involving fires, not pretty, and less of a concern in a diesel vehicle.

    My point is, that I think that the issue of the likely immense amount of pollution involved in the production of and eventual disposal of hybrid batteries which does not exist in a traditional vehcile has not been sufficiently raised or analyzed. Only when some facts show up in this area can we really have an idea of how "green" the Hybrids are in the big picture. I certainly like the hybrid idea, but feel that too much attention is paid to direct emissions and folks ignore the larger pollution picture of gasoline powered cars and hybrid batteries.

    Just my 2c, and appreciate any light shined on the subject!
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "BTW, transmission does multiply and divide horsepower. HP is a function of torque. If a transmission multiply and divide torque, it will affect horsepower as well. "

    Look--hp is torque*rpm.

    If there is a 2:1 gear ratio

    torque will be divided by two
    rpm will be multiplied by two.

    Do you debate any of these facts? If so, which one? Please do not go into some bizarre cognition about cvt's and "HSD."

    Therefore after this 2:1 gear ratio, hp will be the same, just as 2*2 = (2/1) * (2*2)

    If anything else were to happen, it would violate conservation of energy.

    Everything else in your condescending post is similarly bizarrely incorrect, including your statements about my changing topics, positions, etc.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/news/blankstory.asp?ID=5487

    Good point about the exaporation from pumping/tanks being less for diesel. I hadn't thought of that.
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