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Hybrid vs Diesel
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Comments
Sounds like my repeated questions & request for real world cost of a Prius Hybrid. Not what it costs to fill one up with premium unleaded, what it costs to purchase one.
You should stick to hybrids. No one with an original Hummer would even want a H2 Hummer. The original is twice the vehicle and more than twice the price. I think when the dust settles Toyota will be paying millions of dollars to Prius customers for false advertising.
Dunno, mine (oil changes on an 04 GLS TDI) are $45 at my dealer...and I only need one every 10K miles...so if you (gassers) pay $20 for an oil change and need one every 3K miles...who is coming out on top? You (gassers) need 3 changes (ie $60) for every 1 (ie $45) that I need.
EPA ratings for the old and new Prius are the same
hybrids use premium fuel
the traction battery needs to be replaced every xx years and is toxic
car dealers were saints till hybrids came along
Prius had been driven 967 miles with 85.7 mpg. The car is like a tool, it is up to the person how they use it.
Dennis
Gee, I don't know what to tell you about deciding between TDI Jetta Wagon and or Passat. The Jetta Wagon will obviously get a tad better fuel mileage. I actually would like to test the Passat!
Maybe your best bet is on "insert diesel vehicle: Problems and Solutions" board and pick your favorite one.
If you worry about high pressure turbo currently available in US, think about modern diesel engines such as 2005 E320 CDI engine. From Automotive Engineering International magazine May issue:
"The common-rail system features a load dependent,
high-pressure rail that provides
constant pressure of 23,000 psi (1600 bar)
to all of the fuel injectors simultaneously
and on demand. Mercedes points out that
the common rail pumps out more than four
times the pressure on the surface of the
bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, and more
than 10 times the pressure of a typical
household pressure washer."
My tire pressure is 33 PSI. 23,000 PSI sounds more dangerous to me than 200V battery and 500V drivetrain electrical system that is NOT even classified as "High Voltage".
Dennis
Why do people keep spreading the FALSE information that premium is required?
Not only isn't it required, it isn't actually recommended.
The system was specifically designed to work with 87 octane (85 in high altitudes).
JOHN
The EPA has been using the same testing procedures for 19 years.
Why would they suddenly change them for a vehicle that was quota'd to only sell a very small number per year?
And if they did, the entire purpose would be lost: for COMPARISON.
> 35-40 mpg(as many Prius owners are reporting)
The lie is getting worse. The average for CLASSIC is 45 MPG. Deal with it!
Why are you intentionally ignoring those that even make me jealous? Some owners of the 2004 are reporting averages in the upper 50's. And the majority are reporting averages around 50 MPG.
Where exactly are you getting your "facts"?
> That is a pure case of false advertising.
False what? You have absolutely no case. Would you like me to post the text of the window-sticker again? It doesn't support your claim at all.
And if a saleperson misled a consumer, what does that have to do with an automaker? Dealers are stores, carrying a product from a specific supplier. The conduct of their employees is their responsibility, not who built the vehicle.
JOHN
Why would they suddenly change them for a vehicle that was quota'd to only sell a very small number per year?
And if they did, the entire purpose would be lost: for COMPARISON."
I would also agree with this! I read one article that quoted a Toyota Prius official as blaming the EPA testing or procedures for the "difference". Since they didn't go into the technical issues, the reasoning for the "blame" is unclear. Be that as it may I can only surmise that something unique to the gasser/hybrid may in Toyota's view merit special exemption or testing.
I also do not see the Prius vs TDI Jetta/Beetle/Passat etc as an either or type of proposition or even necessarily an adversarial relationship. I have had 5 hrs of 2004 Prius cockpit time and actually like the vehicle. If anything it would have been far easier to just do a Prius in that I am a long time customer of my local Toyota dealership, sales repair, maintenance and brokering (6 Toyota's, not to mention referrals also). The dealership will literally send me home with anything I want to try at a min of overnight. I do however think that there seems to be a lot of resistance on the Prius owners side to an economic analysis. I can easily get the information from other sources, but I guess this is not the real reason for this Edmunds.com thread!?
I say do the homework and let the chips fall where they may.
Next part is: how much your local shop would charge for a turbo swap per hr how many hrs?
Also, new cars are required to display the EPA mileage ratings. It is not Toyota's fault if those ratings are too high because of out-dated testing procedures. Recently the EPA has clarified this, saying that manufacturers may show their own ratings next to the EPA ratings, if they believe the EPA ratings to be off the mark. Perhaps Toyota will do this, now that they know they may do so.
I noticed that the Prius has a 13:1 compression engine.....that is a high compression engine, under normal circumstances, higher compression engines and their timing components need/use higher octane fuel.
I also notice that my request/question for real world data on the price of the Prius has once again been ignored.
djasonw - Does the CR report list them by specific models (GLS 2.0, GLS TDI, GLS VR6, etc. etc.) or is it all models and styles lumped under one heading? Jetta? You might want to check here...
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/volkswagen/jetta/100352601/rating- s_consumer.html?tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.ratings..1.Volkswag- en*
and here
http://autos.msn.com/research/userreviews/reviewlist.aspx?modelid- =11071&search=MostRecent&num=50&trim=All&lang=All
http://autos.msn.com/research/userreviews/reviewlist.aspx?ModelID- =11071&search=MostRecent&num=All&trim=98565&lang=- All
Actual owners are tickled pink with their cars. I wouldn't buy a 2.0 Jetta..ever, but I'd buy my TDI all over again (don't tell anyone, but even though I got it for less than the sticker, I'd even pay full sticker for it
You helped provide proof that the "cost per mile" analysis really doesn't have that much of a practical application when it comes to actual ownership.
(Hint: Distance was a key component required to do those calculations.)
JOHN
Uhhhh, this has gone from accounting 101 to math 101? All I've done is explain that using GASB or IRS depreciation schedules do nothing for determining how long a vehicle will last! If you're trying to break-down your cost into a per/mile basis, you have to make some basic assumptions. These assumptions would be based on how long you plan to own the vehicle and how many miles you plan to drive it each year. Cost per mile is THE most accurate way to estimate cost, once you establish some basic criteria. The Hybrid is just more difficult to establish the basic criteria because the historical data doesn't exist, that's all.
Maybe, maybe not. The key to owning a VW is that you WANT a VW. They're quite different than the Toyota/Honda type vehicles (i've owned five toyotas since 1992, i think I know). I would not classify the current TDI as the cream of the crop as far as diesels are concerned. In fact, the technology is quite dated (the PD is a new twist on the old motor), back to about '97 actually. The diesel offerings in Europe are vastly better than the small TDI's offered here. The V10 TDI is quite an advanced engine, although I imagine it's been dumbed down severely for our rot-gut fuel. I'm not trying to sell anyone on a VW that would typically buy a Toyota. I think diesels have lots of potential here particularly when you have a very old engine performing reasonably with the latest/greatest hybrid hitting the streets.
BTW, most of the black dots on Consumer Reports is attributed to two things. One is the power window motors used to break on a regular basis, updated part fixed that on the newest ones. The other was a big-time Coil issue where a huge run of faulty parts were distributed by Bosch and crippled gasser VW's.
Dealing with a VW dealer can be a nightmare if you end up at one of the numerous crappy dealers that exist. High repair rates and many have absolutely no clue what they're doing on a TDI. I just plain prefer driving a VW though and even if they didn't offer the TDI I'd likely be driving something like this. Probably a Passat 1.8T or an Audi A4. I don't miss driving a Camry at all.
The only one spreading false information is you. The first Prius hybrids did indeed have to have PREMIUM Unleaded gas to even run. Maybe they have overcome that on the NEW vehicles. If someone is so unfortunate not to be able to dump the old Prius and buy a new 2004 Prius, you are giving them false information. VW is not the only vehicles out there that require Premium to run. My wife's Lexus requires it also. Most high compression gasser's require Premium as someone has already stated.
http://www.gemcar.com/htmls/gemveh.html
I'm thinking they'd be great as a tow behind an RV or as gagrice mentioned..short trips of less than 25 miles. And they're domestic.
I just assumed the Prius used regular gas. The Jetta's 2.0 uses regular and the 1.8T is recommending premium.
http://autos.msn.com/research/userreviews/reviewlist.aspx?ModelID- =11047&search=MostRecent&num=50&trim=All&lang=All
Again, cost per mile for various categories is the most accurate measure!! In the case of a turbo, one can put it in the unscheduled maintenance category. I'd be lying to you if I said you positively must change a turbo at 100,000 etc. But as you had suggested it can fail.
Since I have a clutch, I know that anywhere from 100,000 to 500,000 miles a clutch job at app 1000 dollars will be needed. This clutch job actually is cheaper than getting an auto upfront. I assign a projected value on a per mile basis. I assign it to sort of a neither world; scheduled but unscheduled. Again if you can assign costs to things it makes the analysis pretty upfront, which is what the Prius owners seem unwilling to do. So yes we get this round and round and round dialog going, which for the most part is not useful.
It is really the EPA and its false MPG claims. Toyota and Honda of course were glad to use them in their ads...
Ruking1 you have almost convinced me to go buy a VW TDI. Just not sure whether to get the Jetta wagon or Passat sedan. A dealer in Las Vegas has several of each.
You got four choices, if you include the new beetle and the Golf, but surprisingly few in the US buy the very efficiently packaged Golf, esp. now that the Jetta also looks good, and not just like a golf with a welded trunk in the back.
The choice between the JEtta and the PAssat TDI is not difficult,
One is a compact and the other is a much larger midsize. THe jetta is much cheaper, but the engine has much less HP and esp. Torque than the passat's diesel.
You need to estimate your needs, maybe go test drive both, and then decide.
I'd recommend getting a manual, no latter which of the four you choose. The MPG benefits are MUCH smaller with the Auto.
Plus it is much much less fun.
In addition, I expect the Jetta to have 10-15 mpg HIGHER than the passat.
EPA Jetta Diesel is 49, passat is 37 or so, both with manual trans.
I am sorry if it seemed that I was implying that TDI owners are the only ones tickled pink with their vehicles..as here are some more reviews of the Prius (thank you gagrice for helping this to be a "fair and balanced" discussion). There too are Prius owners that are tickled pink.
I have stated this before, the TDI (IMHO) is a more economical car to purchase and drive. It costs (we'll say since nobody wants to give hard figures) $5500 less than a Prius ($21400 real dollars that I paid vs estimated $27k that most Prius are stickered at on the lot), I save on average $0.20 per gallon of fuel (against regular unleaded) and the two cars get roughly the same avereage fuel mileage. I drive 30K miles per years...which means a fuel savings of roughly $135.
so it goes something like this...
Purchase Price: Advantage TDI
Fuel Price: Advantage TDI
Fuel Mileage: Very Slight, if any, advantage Prius
even if I have to replace the turbo unit, with the $454 I save in fuel costs over 100K miles, the $216 I saved in oil changes (33 for the gasser @ $20 as opposed to the 10 @ $45 for the TDI), and the $5500 I saved on purchase price...does anyone really think that my maintainence costs are going to exceed those of a Prius owner by $6170? Probably not.
The Passat is only being offered with a 5-speed auto with manumatic. It's an excellent driving car particularly if you can find some good quality diesel which can be a challenge. I just about bought one Wed. evening, but decided my Jetta is just fine for now. The Passat is much better on rear seat leg-room but width is still not accomodating for three passengers IMHO. It is a more refined vehicle than the Jetta/Golf, but not as fun either because of extra weight and a softer suspension. The main reason I didn't buy was because I would have had to make a decision right on the spot because the dealer was temporarily holding it for me as they had other buyers waiting.
Most manual stick shift's are closely matched to the power/torque output of the engine. Like for example my Z06 Corvette with 6 speed had 385 hp/# ft of torque. When they upped the hp/torque to 405 (only 20 hp/#ft of torque) they literally had to redesign and obviously beef up the clutch, etc.
Same is true with the VW Jetta 5 speed manual. Yet, I met a guy that gets 295 #ft of torque at the rear wheels with an automatic. (yardstick 90 hp/177# ft of torque) He has no transmission modification or issues. If I wanted 295 # ft of torque with a 5 speed manual, as a minimum, I would have to go to like a Spec 2 clutch to handle the increase! This would cost close to 1000 dollars.
As you know, you can swap bigger injectors .205, .216 as examples. Of course depending on how you drive, your fuel mileage can remain the same despite increases in hp and massive increases in torque!!!
Don't forget resale or longevity. If you plan on driving them into the ground, no question the TDI will outlast the Prius.
If you are thinking about resale, it's even less of a question which car has the advantage.
If you drive so little, don't bother with the TDI or hybrid. Makes no sense whatsoever from an economical standpoint. Just buy what you like.
I would also agree! As I have stated before, my intention is to go 500,000-1,000,000 miles. So in the short term,
(nexus: 8.5 years being the average age of the passenger car fleet)
So projected; I do 30k per year, with first year actual of 26k. So current projected/actual consumption is 442k - 510k miles. I will obviously need to change parts, but it almost goes without saying that parts are WAY cheaper than a new car at that or those junctures. The other issue is most, if not all these parts will not be TDI related. Most will be common to Prius folks too, i.e. brake pads, rotors, air filters, etc.
So say the Prius had the same life cycle. The target numbers to beat as a minium are the 150k mile (28ea) batteries swap @ 140 per pop=3920/510k=3.4 x 3920= $13,328.00
So combine that with the upfront cost differential of 6171 (as per first quote) = $19,499.
We have no way of knowing the resale of the Prius 10 years from now. I was just looking at listings for a 1979-1981 VW rabbit diesel PU. They are going for $2000 and up in good running condition. That is pretty decent resale value in my book. One ad claims his Rabbit diesel still get 50 mpg driving back and forth to work each day. If you are looking for used VW's this is a good site.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/
2 year old TDIs are selling for 85 to 90 percent of original purchase price. 8-10 year olds are selling for ~30% of OPP.
That's phenomenal resale value in any book.
OTOH, we don't know about resale value of the Prius. But current lease prices and residuals give an indication, and I think the 3 year lease price of a Prius is close to that of a BMW 525 - a car that costs 75% more to buy.
Actually the thing that emphasized the hidden value of the 12 year rust warranty and the 500-1m mile TDI motor was the (per mile, per year) depreciation of a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser.
Long story short; 14 years sold a 16k vehicle for 9k for a loss of 7k over 250,000 miles or 44% total depreciation/14= 3% per year. or .028 cents per mile. (incidently the unscheduled maintenance portion came out to be app 2200 dollars, with most of that in labor,(brought to dealer) In less ethereal terms, the cost to own the vehicle was 500 dollars a year/12=42 dollars a month.
So if I can get 2k at a point in the future then to match these figures I need 607k miles!
For my .02 cents, part of the game is chasing that .028 cents!