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Comments
Yes, it has been a while since I have visited here and left any comments. I have been terribly busy at work and just have not had the opportunity to get the letter out to Sergio or post it here.
In any event, we are going to let the Jeep go and move on. We are also done with Chrysler after my wife and I have been customers of theirs for more than fifty years. I still like some of their products and designs but my wife and I are concerned about the treatment we would receive should something like this occur again.
In the meantime, I have purchased a 2013 Subaru Outback 2.5i Premium. The fuel economy is about the same as the Jeep, but I do miss the torque from the diesel. The interior room is about the same but the seats are far superior as is the ride which is quieter and more supple. Handling is equivalent. The engine in the Subaru is a bit different. It is still a flat four but now there is a timing chain instead of a timing belt. The transmission is a CVT versus the five speed in the Jeep. This is my first CVT and it takes a bit of getting use to. There is no torque converter. I was on number three when the engine blew.
I suppose I could post the letter I do have and the pictures I have before I send them off to Sergio. I need a little advice on how to post the letter and the pictures.
Thanks
To add a photo to your Forum post, first click the “Img” button beneath the text box; this inserts the beginning of the standard HTML tag for an image. Next, add the URL of the photo, e.g. http://url-location/photo.jpg (Note: the photo needs to have been uploaded to a photo hosting service in order to have a URL.) Finally, click the “Img” button again to insert the end of the standard HTML tag for an image. When you post your message, the photo will be included.
So, you'll need to upload the pics to flickr or photobucket or some similar hosting site, and then grab the URL of the pics. I usually use tinypic since it's pretty quick.
And you'll want to put some paper over the address or other personal when you take photos of the letter for uploading.
Give a shout if you get stuck (stever@edmunds.com).
Here are the pictures. They are not pretty. Comments welcome.
I have bought a couple of parts cars in the past, one was a Saturn and one a Honda. Each of them had engines that looked very similiar to your Pics.
There seems to be good and bad engines in most makes of cars. The CRD because it is limited production and owned by paticular people, gets more communicated about it by its owners.
I believe the most important addition that every owner should do ASAP is either a Provent system or homemade copy, to keep the engines as clean as possible. This will prevent some costly repairs.
In your case, it would be nice to know what happened, but it looks like something was out of balance.
I have the impression something blocked your piston on its way up and the impact destroyed the connecting rod that replicated damage in the volume around the crankshaft journal. I would inspect the head of the cylinder to see if a valve is bent or missing because the foot of your connecting rod looks OK.
I experienced such a failure with the B16 engine of my Volvo 544 (years ago); the Babbitt liner melted then the foot of the connecting rod broke free, piston hit the head then rotation of the crankshaft destroyed the rest by hitting the broken foot sideways
This was a lubrication problem, but I wouldn't say its the same in your case.
What a mess is an understatement. The oil I was using was Lubro Moly 5W-40 part # 2040 which up to a few days ago was still a recommended oil for this engine on the Lubro Moly website. I spoke with Lubro Moly and they swear on a stack of bibles that they have never had an engine fail because of their oil.
Now the head is still in place and the service manager refused to pay his tech to pull the head to see what was going on inside number one cylinder. The valve cover(s) are also still in place so I do not know if a valve is broken. As I did mention a long time ago, I was able to reach in the hole on the side of the block and grab hold of the bottom end of the connecting rod which you see in several pictures. I was able to rotate that piece on the crank journal by hand with a little difficulty but it did move.
I was told that the glowplug for number one cylinder had been destroyed and I have the injector for said cylinder and the tip is smashed flat.
Still have the Mercury (wife's car) and it is running fine. The Subaru is a flat four with a CVT. Took a bit of getting use to but it is a good vehicle at this point in time. I still miss the torque of the diesel but I do not miss the questionable reliability.
Jeep is going to use a VM Motori diesel engine in the Grand Cherokee. Fiat has bought heavily into VM Motori so let us pray that the Fiat diesel engineers resolved the issues faced by Liberty CRD owners.
In my view, there was a component failure, either a bad connecting rod or a bad cylinder liner.
As Caribou has stated, the 2.8L was never really designed for long highway cruising.
You can borrow or buy a cheap USB endoscope, these cost less than $50 today. If a valve is missing chances are that's what broke your engine.
I intend to purchase one of these devices and next time I go to Florida I will examine the inside of the engine via the hole where the injector went through and from the bottom also.
If the piston is stuck in the bore, then there is a problem with the liner design.
http://s1276.beta.photobucket.com/user/fjwinter/media/DSCN0514_zps4b9f822e.jpg.h- - tml?sort=3&o=5
while this picture shows one that is not:
http://s1276.beta.photobucket.com/user/fjwinter/media/DSCN0508_zps14b6e725.jpg.h- - tml?sort=3&o=11
Mixed debris tend to indicate there are both piston and liner material but none are deformed nor squashed.
I have the head of the connecting rod here at home. It is not out of round as a wrist pin slips in and out of the head smoothly.
So, what do you think based on the pictures?
Winter2
The potential energy behind one piston coming against something solid can twist the piston around its wrist pin and develop a brief but infinite effort (force) against the cylinder liner specially as it gets close to TDC; in this position the piston triggers a reaction such as a mechanical bomb due to the angular leverage effect resulting from the absence of stiffness and guidance of its skirt.
Could you put your explanation in more simple terms. I understand a portion of what you are saying, but I would prefer to understand all of your posting.
Thanks
I think its the sudden deterioration from an excessive pressure condition comparable to a compressed fluid and not due to local wear or overheating induced by excess friction or bad lubrication; neither do I believe in the accumulation of (several) defective components. Cast iron has very little elasticity and will shatter under pressure.
The potential energy behind one piston coming against something solid can twist the piston around its wrist pin and develop a brief but infinite effort (force) against the cylinder liner specially as it gets close to TDC; in this position the piston triggers a reaction such as a mechanical bomb due to the angular leverage effect resulting from the absence of stiffness and guidance of its skirt.
The energy of the running engine is instantly blocked by the material of the piston head which by design is a disk or thin cylinder. This is a wedge and the aluminum alloy being elastic distributes the sudden effort in every direction.
My som has a dealers permiy in Missouri and he goes to the Manheim Dealers auction. I look up vehicles for him to see if a vehicle is worth buying from private parties and then take them to the auction, he flips vehicles. The Jeeps are pretty good but the Liberties are not bring as good as the other jeeps.
I am blessed to have gotten Chrysler to have bought it back. Our Pacifica now has 141,000 miles and still going good. (now watch as soon as we brag on a vehicle it goes down)
How is yiur crd doing caribou1? How much is fuel there?
well wishing you both goo day's ahead this year.
farout
I start with the bad news: diesel fuel is sold 1.45Euro/Lt which is $7.5 / US gal here :sick:
My little "de-rated" (150HP) CRD works very well, is on its 3rd set of tires after 10 years and starts flawlessly when the temperature reaches -15°C. There is a small leak on the lip-seal of the front differential and I will have to change my rear brake pads this year. Looking back, the extra 13HP you had didn't serve you well.
She's on "mountain-duty" nowadays to take the grandkids+dog+the rest of us near Mt-Blanc :shades:
Another idiosyncrasy includes the battery which has still has a current draw when shut down so that if it sits for a week or so without being run, it runs the battery down.
It's also always had odd behavior with the anti-lock brakes. Sometimes I get the Anti lock brake light on when I am driving over ice. I have to stop and restart the engine to get rid of it.
I've had tire problems lately. Moisture in my tire air has apparently done a number on the rims. I've had them all ground down and resealed.
My parking brakes are gone. Per the manual, you have to remove the rear axles to replace them. This is a dumb design.
Yes, I realize I can put the Jeep into 4WD to get better traction in snow. I also have had other vehicles with front wheel drive that have not required this added step for traction.
I had my Dodge Dakota for 12 years and had few problems with it. I've had this Jeep for 8 years. I used to love it, but it's getting time for a break-up.
My back has always got sore when taking long drives with the this vehicle.
However,.....if I could get a good fix for that EGR valve, I'd be happy with it for a while. I wish I understood it's logic better.
Hey! I had it long enough. I can complain some.
Cleaned the MAF sensor ever six months and the manifold pressure sensor every oil change or 5K miles.
With the new CRD coming in the Grand Cherokee I wonder if the exhaust gases will be pulled after the DPF to cycle through the EGR valve. Makes sense to me. All of the soot gets trapped in the DPF, not in the EGR.
I'll have to find out what Caribou's method is,......but he is in France. I don't even think he has an EGR valve.
I was tempted to get a Subaru in the past. It's got a flat 4 like my old Beetle. I think it may be easier to maintain. I like to support the US auto industry too.
There is an egr valve on the MY-2003 engine: it is vacuum operated and uses the electro-valve that operates your variable vanes. My turbo uses a waste gate and is self 'balanced'. I plugged this vacuum pilot line 9 years ago (already), so my egr cannot move. Bi-annual technical inspections report a fully functional engine with very low exhaust opacity and low NOx which is surprisingly good according to the certified "EXPERT". BTW I have a K&N air filter cartridge washed once in 6 years.
I don't have the mass flow metering and the Lambda sensor(s) that come with it, I have the basic common rail. If you could down-grade to an older / simpler version of the CPU your problems would be simplified. I believe this is what is offered by the "Green Diesel" modifications.
The "nose-blowing" remedy was recommended by Renault road-side assistance technicians for their small diesels, many years ago: you simply run the engine to full acceleration and let it reach the upper RPMs during a brief period of time, but regularly. Renault also published a document explaining how to clean the egr; their egr was designed to be easily accessible.
Last but not least: those who polluted the air we breathe on this side of the pond are now against diesels, even against those using particle filtration :confuse:
I saw that story but it sounded more like a tax grab by raising diesel prices about 20 US cents a gallon.
It would be better to give the newer "clean" diesels a break in order to get more of the old ones off the road.
There's more over in the What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car? discussion.
Please tell me this is not crazy.
In the Peoples Republic of California, they are retrofitting older diesel buses and older trucks with DPF as well as upgraded computer control systems. Turns out that this is cheaper than buying a new diesel and nearly as effective in cleaning up the emissions.
Some of these crazies who scream about diesel are morons and are against biodiesel also. They claim it uses food crops. Well, what about corn and ethanol? I did not realize that corn is no longer a food crop.
That is what I did got a tune by green diesel,
Try doing the nose-blowing,but did not work that well.
To much city driving.
SO FAR The jeep is running good after the tune.
Anne
And since diesels typically get better mpg than a similar gas vehicle, that could explain the higher diesel tax.
The official objective is an increase of 0.3 Euro per liter => 0.3 x 4 x 1.3 == $1.56 / US gal :mad:
How long can a government pay for a majority of healthy retired fit and educated people who officially worked 35-40H per week, retired between 55 and 60 (mean age is 58), have an average life expectancy of 85 years, receive full medical care at no charge, buy foreign cars and most industrial goods from emerging countries?
- Well ... World Health Organization apparently gave the government a gold 'handle' in a report stating that 40,000 death caused by lung cancer could be avoided every year if diesel fuel was abandoned. Electricity will also go up by 30% because other EU countries have higher prices.
The average commuting distance is now almost 30 Miles and 26,000,000 people are concerned everyday.
PSA group recently developed a diesel hybrid but who will buy such a clever vehicle now?
Electric cars have no clear future when 25% of voters impose to stop nuclear power plants in a 50/50 political scene.
60% of all vehicles registered in France are diesels and we are encouraged to replace them by new gassers. But we are in a recession cycle and people have less money to invest, so can they buy an equivalent vehicle?
- I think not: the Liberty CRD (Cherokee here) already has its 'green-CO2' registration penalty of 6,000 Euros
Liberty Jeep bonus-malus link
I can have my engine, brakes and transmission repaired for such a cost and no money blocked by credit charges nor any further depreciation.
Now imagine a layer of 40,000 cheerful and healthy people being added year after year to an aging population, it would need more roads more cars more money more electricity more fuel and perhaps a more clever government :P
A $1.56 a US gallon increase does put a whole 'nother slant on it. Didn't know about the Liberty CRD "bonus".
Interesting slant you've put your finger on though - drive a dirty diesel rig, kill more people and help the economy.
Public health must of course remain our only objective but a pinch of clear-sightedness is urgently needed.
Frankly, I think it is crazy. I see what you are saying and understand your point of view.
If our government is trying to encourage reduced fuel usage via better fuel economy, then why penalize those who purchase very fuel efficient vehicles like diesels or hybrids? Frankly, I think that this move is stupid on the part of Virginia.
And consider this. I-95 runs right through Virginia for about 170 miles. There are many truck stops on this strip of I-95 and in general diesel is fairly cheap in Virginia. It would be interesting to see how much revenue Virginia loses because of this stupidity.
That sensor was a pain in the neck to get at but once I figured out a way, I stuck with it. That pressure sensor needs to be cleaned quite regularly otherwise you will rupture a hose or blow them off of their hookup points because you are overpressuring the intake side.
The other trick I found was to apply Aviation gasket cement or Indian Head shellac to the hose and the connection points, let it setup for a few minutes, slide on the hoses and then clamp them down. Never had a problem after that with hoses blowing off again.
The EGR design for the CRD is a nightmare. Totally stupid. The nose blowing does work and the tech at the dealer I purchased my CRD at said it was the right thing to do.
I guess the states can make us all stop at the weigh stations and pay up. :shades:
Fun to see you mention "Indian Head Shellac". I guess it's mostly rosin, but we got an old house a few years back and all the wood trim (and there's lots of it) appears to be mostly shellac. Easy stuff to work with, even it it's not as durable as new finishes.
Sorry for the digression; anyone else blowing their nose this weekend and popping their hoses off? :shades:
LPG vehicles are not allowed in non ventilated or even underground public parkings and tunnels. Firemen must keep an important safety distance (50 mt) when one of these wheeled LPG bombs catch fire because many old vehicles don't have a gas release valve.
In case of a LPG fire in a closed area (at work) the safety distance is 300 mt.
Long live the basic CRD
Oh, a scrappage idea has been floated to get the older diesels off your roads ("cash for clunkers" in our lingo). That would help emissions issues more than raising the diesel fuel tax.
I still think it would be cheaper to retrofit older diesels with DPF and possibly after treatment systems than it would be to purchase a new one. New diesels are not as stoutly made as the old ones.
You need the fine mist offered by the common rail plus the exact fuel/air ratio to catalyze the exhaust properly before limiting particles. Old diesels used 135 Bars, new ones use more than 1,500 Bars; it won't be possible to retrofit the old rigs.
Here is a thesis explaining what's behind a clean diesel:
Thesis about Soot Characterization
I agree that a higher injection pressure leads to better atomization of fuel, thus a cleaner burn. But, I think that you have underestimated the pressures in some of the older rigs. For instance, my 1981 Isuzu I-Mark diesel had injection pressures of 250 Bar. Late 1980's and to mid 1990's Cummins diesels found in Dodge pickup trucks had injection pressures in excess of 330 Bar and sometimes approached 400+ Bar.
The other thing that has changed is the fuel. All, if not most of the sulfur is gone and that alone cuts particular formation significantly. The removal of some of the tricyclic bezenes found in diesel fuel reduces particulate formation.
California has successfully retrofitted some older buses with DPF.
The argument we hear against modern diesels is that smaller particles penetrate deeper into our lungs and better control of combustion and Air-Fuel ratio produces smaller particles
Its a 'nested loop' situation: we must prefer 'soft transportation', take our bicycles out of the garage to reduce pollution, this will make us fit, we will live longer and if our better educated children have the chance to find a job (1:3) they will pay for us parents the rest of their life; am I getting something wrong ?
You sound like a liberal.
Actually when you think about it smaller particles do penetrate deeper into the lungs. Now let us consider another issue, namely direct injected gasoline engines. They also produce particulate as part of the combustion process and since gasoline comes from the same crude oil that diesel comes from you have the same nasty chemicals living on the surface of the soot particles.
By nasty chemicals on the surface of soot particles, you mean the free radicals right?
If they don't originate from combustion of refined oil they will be produced by carbonization of lubrication additives.
Hello out there, is there a chemist reading this thread :confuse:
These byproducts of combustion of diesel fuel are called PAHs (Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons). They are know carcinogens and the lubricants in diesel fuel are not the main source but the fuel is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycyclic_aromatic_hydrocarbon
http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/eh/chemfs/fs/pah.htm
Motor oil additives are in the equation plus the quality of the fuel itself.
Some antioxidant additives are said to produce a varnish deposit that becomes irritating once carbonized (OH / Phenol radicals).
Jeeps don't need pavement so we can manage
This morning on French TV an eminent advisor said we should soon envisage to work from home and use video conferencing. I'm under the impression the project is to install optical fibers to recuperate the expensive metal used in telephone wires going to each house: its a clever way to liquidate the country and evoke modernism.
Is anyone using bio-diesel nowadays ?
We had a local Swiss company producing di-ester from waste cooking oil collected around Geneva; then they moved to France and vanished in the aether. Instead of installing $100 worth of Viton seals to be compatible with bio-diesel people were threatened to face high expenses. When you want to get rid of your dog you say the poor animal has rabies :P
We will be all riding mountain bikes and any monies saved will go to medical bills for those who break their necks riding bicycles.
"How long can a government pay for a majority of healthy retired fit and educated people who officially worked 35-40H per week, retired between 55 and 60 (mean age is 58), have an average life expectancy of 85 years, receive full medical care at no charge, buy foreign cars and most industrial goods from emerging countries?"
I can't answer the question, but I think other countries have better ideas than ours (USA) which is run by big business and their cronies, the right wing crazies. It sounds like France takes care of their people instead of dumping them in the street.
The weather is getting warmer. I will be pursuing some of these EGR fixes. Thanks for the help. I just wish there was an easy way to disable it with no CEL. Maybe, Green Engineering if i can get the bucks together.