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Jeep Liberty Diesel

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Comments

  • VSQRVSQR Posts: 5
    Who's making the engine?
    I am all set to order a 2004 and asked my dealer
    he is as confused as everyone else. There also apparently other issue in the 04 configurator pertaining to the Limited. Anyone else seeing any issues?
  • Any idea on what the US base price for the Liberty Turbo Diesel will be?
  • VSQRVSQR Posts: 5
    Email from my dealer does say that they will be making a limited number this model year, but had no idea when they would hit the show room floors or the price. Stay tuned.
  • I own a dealership and Chrysler told me June of next year at the earliest.
  • VSQRVSQR Posts: 5
    WOW thanks for the update. Think I'll move forward with a gas guzzler.

    Have you any ideas on the Borla exhausted mentioned in other postings about improving the
    mileage?
  • I love it. I installed it on my wife's Liberty. I sell them on ebay in case you want one.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    The answer is easier than you might imagine...

    The published schedule for avaliability of the required VeryLowSulpherDiesel fuel in the USA is 2005. All of the 3rd generation super-high-injection-pressure diesels will quickly clog up if the dirty USA diesel fuel is run thru them.

    Europe has been enjoying at least 2 generations ahead of USA with wonderful diesel engines due to the USA lagging behind in clean fuel. Anyone that owns a VW TDI can attest that the dirty fuel tends to 'clog up' the intake, exhaust, turbocharger...etc.

    I still like my 53MPG with enough torque to pass on the highway with ease.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    DaimlerChrysler diesel meets future regulations

    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6078

    NOTE:
    "The test was conducted using low-sulfur European diesel fuel"
    ALSO;
    "Chrysler will build as many units of the diesel Liberty as the market demands. "
  • I am still waiting on the diesel Libby. My 1992 XJ Laredo just had to have a major re-conditioning to keep it up to my standards of road worthyness (new suspension, new brakes, minor upgrades under the hood), but that should keep it running strong (for about 2 years) until the diesel is available in the US. The last time I discussed this with the local stealership, they informed me that it would be another year before the Libby would be available, but I suspect that the vehicle will not be released until mid MY2005 because of the cleaner burning diesel not available in the US yet.

    We have to remember that these diesel KJ Cherokees are currently being built in Toledo for export. So we are not waiting on DC to work out kinks in the vehicle or production. I think we are waiting for the oil companies to catch up with the technology.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    I think they're more waiting on the dealerships to be able to handle the repairs/maintenance. Without a good network of trained shops with the proper parts and tools, this will flop with the likes of the old GM debacle. VW really doesn't have the proper network of qualified repair people to work on TDI's, but they get away with it for the most part just because they're VW. Many VW TDI owners are enthusiasts or do their own mechanic work so it's not an issue. I don't see joe-blow SUV buyer being in the same crowd, although I'm sure many diesel enthusiasts will flock to this vehicle. The public mainstream is what they have to worry about with this vehicle.

    Jeep sells in such quantities, that this HAS to be a flawless rollout. I have no worries about the vehicle being sound, but if the dealerships can't provide decent service and advice it will seem as if the vehicles are the problem.

    I'm not aware of anything on these vehicles that low-sulphur fuel will effect. Low-sulphur is needed for advanced emissions controls, but I haven't heard if these motors will be built with anything like that initially or not.
  • I too am eagerly awaiting the Liberty diesel. I have owned 6 diesel Volkswagens including 3 of the newer "TDI" generation.

    Allow me to respectfully disagree with the statements by sebring95 which indicate that VW dealerships or independent repair shops are not prepared to service the TDI diesel-engined vehicles.

    VW started selling diesels in 1977 in the USA. Wtth the exception of a few years in the mid-1990's, when VW sales were at their nadir, VW has pretty much continuously sold diesel vehicles in the USA over the time from 1977 until now. Tee TDI Passat was sold from 1996-1997, and the very popular Jetta and Golf TDI cars were made available in 1999 and continue today. A very significant number of TDI cars are sold by VWoA each year, and dealership techs see these cars in VW service bays daily and have a great deal of experience with them. The TDI engine has a very good reputation from any VW tech I've ever talked to ( having owned 15 VWs in life so far ). Many VW techs, at least at dealerships of any size, have plenty of experience working on diesel cars, and there are lots of independent shops out there that specialize in VW repair that have savvy VW-diesel techs.

    With regards to owners and their diesel VWs, well, true, the diesel VW-owners are more tech-savvy in my experience than the gasser-VW-owners, but you see a clean break relating to the age of the cars. The older
     70's, 80's, early 90's diesel VWs are FAR less complex to work on than the TDI-engined cars. You do see a fair number of folks wrenching on their older diesel dubs. However, aside from an oil change or tire rotation, most maintenance or repairs on TDI cars are way out of the shade-tree mechanics realm, and often diagnosis of faults requires expensive and or specialized shop equipment. Hardly any TDI owners working on their own cars, at least if the car was built post-1995.

    You'll find that if you ask a VW TDI owner, you'll likely get a very positive response regarding their TDI. If the Jeep diesel engined vehicles ( Liberty ) engender the same goodwill from owners as the VW TDI cars, it will be a very good thing for DC.

    Matt Brickell
    Lee's Summit, MO
    VW Sales Guild 2002 ( top 1% of VW sales consultants in North America ) and 15x VW owner
    current:
    03 Jetta TDI wagon 5 speed
    83 Pickup ( VW )
    87 Quantum Syncro ( AWD )
    03 MINI Cooper 5 speed
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    Of the 16,000 members on a certain TDI site and my personal experience with local dealerships, I say the majority of VW dealers are incompetent when it comes to TDI's. They've had plenty of time to get good at it over the years, but in general it hasn't happened. I didn't say anything about independent shops being incompetent. I believe it is easier to find a VW specialist that would be much better than the dealership for repair work. Doesn't help you when you've got a warranty paying for all the repairs.

    I've personally corrected many mistakes made by dealerships with my $300 software and a few tools. I've fixed cars (and I'm NOT a mechanic) for people on the verge of trading their nearly new TDI's on a Toyota because of a simple problem that the dealers only action was to try and replace every part on the car. I've witnessed several cars with dealership timing belt changes that were not timed correctly. There is one dealer within 100 miles I would use if I absolutely had to. They're actually the smallest dealer and in a rural area, but have a guy that's very good with diesels.

    Jeep needs people with lots of training for this to work properly. Most aren't going to have any experience in things like turbos, various electronics, and the overall different characteristics of diesels. Dodge, GM, and Ford would have a better chance with their US dealerships because most have diesel mechanics on board for their heavy trucks.
  • I wouldn't brag too much on VW dealers. Of the 30+ new vehicles I've purchased in my life, I found the VW dealers more costly for prevenative maintence work than any other automotive dealers I have ever been to in my life. I loved the TDI but could no longer put up with charging me for things that should be covered by my warrenty. The VW dealers put me out of the VW business.

    Jeep will have little to no problem with the diesel they are intorducing in 05. I hope they add the diesel to other vehicles too.
  • I appreciate your opinion, but based on extensive personal experience with VW diesels, the vast majority of which was gained far before being involved in any professional capacity with VW, I continue to disagree.

    Had you said in your original post, that "in your experience" your local VW dealers were not positioned to service TDI cars, that's one thing. My issue is with your blanket statement that VW in general does not have a network of competent repair people and gets away with it. May I ask what facts, statistics or extensive personal experience at the VW dealership service level substantiate such a broad statement? (Really, neither you nor I, when you think about it, have even remotely enough personal experience to warrant such a comprehensive statement). I've found that aside from small VW dealers ( and even some of those ), most VW service departments have a couple of techs with plenty of TDI experience. I see fewer disgruntled clients of mine who own TDI cars than any other sort of VW, by far. I've worked at more than one dealership and found this to be the case. I've lived all over the USA and owned diesel VWs and found the same level of service available to me as when owning a gasoline-powered VW. I'm puzzled to hear that your area seems to be unusual. In our administrative area, for instance, of about 20 dealerships, the average completely satisfied service survey percentage is approximately 90% across the model range. I have not seen in my personal experience where diesel service clients are any more or less satisfied with repairs than any other group. If anything, the diesel VW owners are more critical than the norm, but beside the point.

    Anyway, I'll agree to disagree here. I maintain that the level of experience and competence with TDI cars at VW dealerships is little if any different than with the gassers, aside from a small town dealer ( not many of those with VW anymore). The volume of TDI cars through the service departments is high enough to rate working on a TDI at a VW dealership as routine. No magic to working on a TDI for an experienced VW tech than a 1.8T really, I don't think. I'm just basing my opinion on my own experience with my own cars ( quite a few, some old, some new), and that of a couple of hundred clients, not the world. Anyway, back to relating to the diesel Liberty...

    In my area, the majority of Jeep dealers are also Dodge/Chrysler dealers. Given the popularity or the diesel Ram trucks, I'd assume any given Dodge dealer would have a decent amount of experience working on diesel vehicles. Agreed, though, that like any type of car these days with very sophisticated systems and electronics, a large amount of training and significant investment in diagnotic tools and repair equipment will be necessary to adequately service the Liberty diesel properly. I've spent time in a VW dealership service department, and seen first hand the level of training and support given to VW techs on the TDI cars. Also remarkable is the commitment of most of the techs to doing a good job on the diesels ( and others ). Easy for the general public to bash dealership service, but I'll bet the average person would be quite surprised at the average level of competence and commitment to their TDI product in a metro VW dealership service department.

    If Jeep techs get anywhere near the amount of support and training on the diesel Liberty as I see our VW guys get on TDI Jettas, I think aside from perhaps some initial teething issues as experience is gained ( like anything else ), the Jeep Liberty diesel folks will be in good hands. I may buy one myself!

    Cheers!

    Matt
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    Minor correction.... it is NOT Dodge-Chrysler it is Daimler-Chrysler (aka DC) They have been building and selling Diesels for many years in their Mercedies line of automobiles.

    BTW-- Have you seen that Honda has tasked their Senior Chief Engineer Kenichi Nagahiro into building a Diesel engine. This guy concieves world-class engines. Times they are a changin...

    http://www.waitnews.com/honda_diesel_engine.htm
    http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=136769
  • Preventative maintence for my 02 TDI New Beetle cost me twice and almost three times as much as my 2000 Ford Power Stroke diesel. All the Dallas, Tx VW dealers charged you for things that should have been covered my warrenty. Ford or Dodge did not do this. The fact that I also owned recent model Dodge cummins diesel and three Dodge mini vans in addition. The preventative maintence cost was also much less than what the VW dealers charged. I also pull a 5th wheel all over the US and have done business with other dealers too doesn't make me an expert. I'm just giving you the facts.

    VW is not the same same as when I owned several of the old VW bugs in the 60's. They now try to rip the customers off and I'm to old and to smart for that kind of service.

    Oh, I've had other automobiles and trucks too. Dodge and Ford both have good dealers who try hard to sevvice their customers. As for the Jeep liberty I've only test driven one but I have driven the old Willis Jeeps a bunch. Adding a diesel to the Liberty will be the perfect match.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    Check out Volkswagon Owners: TDI Models for some interesting dealer "issues". A $3,000 EGR cleaning made headlines today. Talk about incompetent. Pretty bad when an amateur like myself could have diagnosed this and fixed it within an afternoon, nevermind a month. How many liberties will sit around for a month because a Jeep tech doesn't know about possible EGRs clogging? Not an issue in Europe where they have diesel that isn't garbage.
  • Not having enough good techs is a problem with Dodge. This is the reason I changed from a Cummins diesel to a Ford diesel. I was uneasy traveling with my Dodge for just that reason. I had a tech in New Mexico take care of an issue that my dealer in Mesquite, Tx was unable to fix for six months. I actually travel more in my Truck because of the 5th wheel than I do in my mini van and I don't like troubles on the road.

    Even though Dodge, Jeep doesn't have as many dealers as GMC & Ford they do have more than many others and I want to be able to find a dealer when I have issues while traveling.
  • I got bashed because I stated that our diesel fuel was not of the quality of that in Europe and that might be the reason for the hold back on American Diesel KJ production. The you post that VW has problem in servicing thier TDI's in the US because of our crappy fuel.

    Why are you posting here instead of JeepUnlimited where that kind of poster bashing is expected.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    What are you talking about? Who "bashed" you? I simply said I thought the roll-out delay was for service/dealer prep reasons. 2005 hardly gets us to ULSD which isn't due until 2006 at the very earliest, and that's assuming it doesn't get delayed.

    The TDI's have a tendancey to gum up the intake, partly due to crappy fuel. This isn't the reason VW dealers have trouble servcing TDI's, it's because I feel their training leaves a lot to be desired. You can avoid the intake gumming up by running a quality fuel which is available in the states, my TDI being an example. ULSD isn't required to avoid this. ULSD will be required for more advanced emissions controls. The same crappy diesel that gums up the intakes, will literally destroy advanced catlysts, particulate traps, and other emissions control devices which aren't on the libby.
  • Sorry for the hot-head, but I really do not think that Daimler cares if their Jeep repair techs know how to work on the product that are released to the public. I think all Daimler is interested in at this point is making sure that they can make money in the end.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    I completely agree that DC is only interested in making money. Who isn't? Reinforces my point though, because they stand to make a lot of money if they can get a good diesel product on the market here. If the first few years are filled with problems and incompetant dealers, people will abandon buying the diesels because they're too much trouble. DC has the upper hand here because they already have a couple models that sell in other countries with nothing different exept the diesel engines. Once the network and training are in place, it would be very simple for the Grand Cherokee to be released with a diesel as well. Mid-size luxury SUV market is where the money is at. Ford and Chevy have to start from scratch if they want to compete. I predict a huge success if they do this properly. I'm willing to wait, as I'd much rather see diesel vehicles become popular here in the states, and not just a odd vehicle running around. Diesel vehicles save fuel now and don't require 10-100 years worth of development.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    Interesting news snippet. DC has a contract with VW for TDI engines. (Just like the Dodge Omni used to have a VW engine)

    TEXT FOLLOWS:


    Engine Partnership between Volkswagen AG and DaimlerChrysler AG
    Volkswagen to provide TDI units to DaimlerChrysler
    September 10, 2003 | Source: Volkswagen AG

    Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler have agreed to form a partnership concerning the delivery of 120,000 2.0-liter-four-valve diesel engines (100 kW/136 hp) a year. The first deliveries will be made in 2005; the agreement runs until 2013.

    The engines are targeted for use in Chrysler brand vehicles as well as in future models of DaimlerChrysler's alliance partner Mitsubishi Motors (MMC). These passenger cars will be marketed exclusively in Europe


    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6078
  • Your correct in saying DC or anyone does not want trouble with their diesels once they start selling them in the States. It is not that we are getting something new, wow, they have already being driving them all over Europe and now have excellent engines to import to the States. Dodge, Ford and GMC all have success with their heavy duty trucks. I drive a Ford diesel now and have had a cummins as well as a TDI.

    Europe does have one advantage in having 85% less sulfur in their fuel. This alone will make for cleaner burning engines. They now have particle catchers that make the new generation diesels burn very clean. I think the plan for us is for the fuel to have much less sulfur by 2005.

    There are a lot of guys like me that have driven the diesels and love em, but right now the only cars available will the MB which is to expensive for the average person and the too small VW. Well, the Passat will be larger. The middle size SUV's we have now are ripe for diesels.

    The best thing a diesel has going for it is torque, and until you have driven one for a while that word will not mean anything to the average person. Let's put it another way. How would you like to stick your car in cruise, let's say 70 MPH. At that point it will be in overdrive. With a diesel it will stay in overdrive most of the time. That is torque.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    "People BUY horsepower... but DRIVE torque."

    There are very few people that actually use the advertized horsepower that their engine produces. Look at the powercurve and you will see that HP is often only available at outrageeously high RPM levels. Who drives like that?

    Sure -- people can say "I have 250HP" but they have probubly never used it because of the high RPMs that are needed to produce that HP. If you look at the RPMs they actually DRIVE at... they are using perhaps 100 HP at any time.

    Cruzing at highways speeds uses perhaps 12-to-20 horsepower.

    But with TORQUE.... the more that is available in the lower RPMs, the better. This is where most folks are running their engines.

    With a diesel, all of the lovable TORQUE is right there where you need it for most daily driving situations. (down low in the RPMs)Pulling away from a stoplight the car LEAPS forward because that is when this engine is at its BEST.

    Dont take our word for it... test drive a VW TDI today.... (drive their GAS engine first then the diesel) The ability to release the clutch at idle and have it PULL like a tractor is exactly what people need/want in most driving situations.

    It is virtually impossible to wear out a clutch in over 200K miles of driving because you never have to 'rev' the engine when starting from a stop. Just release the clutch... then start accellerating.

    It took me several months of driving a diesel to relearn how to take advantage os all of that wonderful TORQUE. A diesel LOVES to be loaded and pulling hard. 5th gear up steep grades is effortless for this engine.

    I like the 50+ MPG too! Over 650 miles per tank of fuel.

    Bring on the diesels DC!
  • When you test drive a VW TDI be sure to put an adult or two in the back seat, or even better sit there yourself. The Jeep Liberty, with a diesel, will have much more room and is built just as good.

    (2) Find out from someone who has owned a VW TDI and had it serviced at a VW dealer. I had one for almost two years and the preventative maintenance cost was twice, almost three time as much as my Ford Power Stroke diesel. I have owned over 30 new cars & trucks and have never been ripped off like this before.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    I know many folks ripped by dealers for non-necessary preventative maintenance. You have to be a very informed consumer when dealer with a "foreign" auto dealer, and sometimes domestics. If you tell them "give me the 40k mile service" you may get the whole thing rebuilt. I've seen other brands do this as well (toyota, one of the local jeep dealers, and audi to name a couple) but you really have to read your owners manual and tell them what you want done. By following the owners manual, a TDI is quite reasonable to maintain. The only expensive part is the timing belt which most aren't due until 60k-100k miles. I suspect the Liberty will be fairly easy to maintain. Diesels don't usually need much more/less than gassers, with the possible exception of fuel filters.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    Yup.. you are right, there are dealers that make a mint off of some people. Dont blame the VEHICLE just because of an unscrupulus dealership.

    The only reason I brought up the VW here in this forum is to alert people that they can COMPARE the very different power delivery between gas-and-diesel right now at a VW dealership.

    It is predicted that over the next 5 years, there will be almost TRIPPLE the diesels that are on the roads today in the USA. Once folks realize 50MPG along with more power when they need it, they will FLOCK to the diesesl verions of their favorite vehicles.

    If DC delivers a reliable diesel engine, the diesel Jeep Liberty will be one of those sought-after vehicles.
  • My average MPG / with auto trans for my 2002 New Beetle TDI was 35MPG. City driving was 33, highway driving was 38 to 44. All this depends on speed,wind conditions and how heavy your foot is. Remember this was only a 90 HP diesel engine.

    I figure the Liberty diesel w/automatic will get close to the mileage of a Honda Accord V6 w/auto trans, but that's not the whole story. The torque will be outstanding.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    (jimlockey) There was somthing wrong with your TDI. I AVERAGE 50MPG.... and have touched 54MPG on some tankfuls. I have NEVER got less than 600 miles to a tank even before broken in.... Now, I always get over 650 miles per tank of fuel.

    Also... you say this was "only" a 90 HP diesel engine. When that TDI is delivering "only" 90 HP... the same displacement gasoline engine would be produciing perhaps 75 HP. (Even though the gasoline engine may be rated at 175 HP in the higher RPMs)
    My point is that one cannot use PEAK HORSEPOWER as a means to compare gasoline to diesel engines.

    You are right on when you say "The torque will be outstanding."
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