Jeep Liberty Diesel

kyjeepster · September 2003

Sorry for the hot-head, but I really do not think that Daimler cares if their Jeep repair techs know how to work on the product that are released to the public. I think all Daimler is interested in at this point is making sure that they can make money in the end.

sebring95 · September 2003

I completely agree that DC is only interested in making money. Who isn't? Reinforces my point though, because they stand to make a lot of money if they can get a good diesel product on the market here. If the first few years are filled with problems and incompetant dealers, people will abandon buying the diesels because they're too much trouble. DC has the upper hand here because they already have a couple models that sell in other countries with nothing different exept the diesel engines. Once the network and training are in place, it would be very simple for the Grand Cherokee to be released with a diesel as well. Mid-size luxury SUV market is where the money is at. Ford and Chevy have to start from scratch if they want to compete. I predict a huge success if they do this properly. I'm willing to wait, as I'd much rather see diesel vehicles become popular here in the states, and not just a odd vehicle running around. Diesel vehicles save fuel now and don't require 10-100 years worth of development.

bpeebles · September 2003

Interesting news snippet. DC has a contract with VW for TDI engines. (Just like the Dodge Omni used to have a VW engine)

TEXT FOLLOWS:

Engine Partnership between Volkswagen AG and DaimlerChrysler AG
Volkswagen to provide TDI units to DaimlerChrysler
September 10, 2003 | Source: Volkswagen AG

Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler have agreed to form a partnership concerning the delivery of 120,000 2.0-liter-four-valve diesel engines (100 kW/136 hp) a year. The first deliveries will be made in 2005; the agreement runs until 2013.

The engines are targeted for use in Chrysler brand vehicles as well as in future models of DaimlerChrysler's alliance partner Mitsubishi Motors (MMC). These passenger cars will be marketed exclusively in Europe

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6078

jimlockey · September 2003

Your correct in saying DC or anyone does not want trouble with their diesels once they start selling them in the States. It is not that we are getting something new, wow, they have already being driving them all over Europe and now have excellent engines to import to the States. Dodge, Ford and GMC all have success with their heavy duty trucks. I drive a Ford diesel now and have had a cummins as well as a TDI.

Europe does have one advantage in having 85% less sulfur in their fuel. This alone will make for cleaner burning engines. They now have particle catchers that make the new generation diesels burn very clean. I think the plan for us is for the fuel to have much less sulfur by 2005.

There are a lot of guys like me that have driven the diesels and love em, but right now the only cars available will the MB which is to expensive for the average person and the too small VW. Well, the Passat will be larger. The middle size SUV's we have now are ripe for diesels.

The best thing a diesel has going for it is torque, and until you have driven one for a while that word will not mean anything to the average person. Let's put it another way. How would you like to stick your car in cruise, let's say 70 MPH. At that point it will be in overdrive. With a diesel it will stay in overdrive most of the time. That is torque.

bpeebles · September 2003

"People BUY horsepower... but DRIVE torque."

There are very few people that actually use the advertized horsepower that their engine produces. Look at the powercurve and you will see that HP is often only available at outrageeously high RPM levels. Who drives like that?

Sure -- people can say "I have 250HP" but they have probubly never used it because of the high RPMs that are needed to produce that HP. If you look at the RPMs they actually DRIVE at... they are using perhaps 100 HP at any time.

Cruzing at highways speeds uses perhaps 12-to-20 horsepower.

But with TORQUE.... the more that is available in the lower RPMs, the better. This is where most folks are running their engines.

With a diesel, all of the lovable TORQUE is right there where you need it for most daily driving situations. (down low in the RPMs)Pulling away from a stoplight the car LEAPS forward because that is when this engine is at its BEST.

Dont take our word for it... test drive a VW TDI today.... (drive their GAS engine first then the diesel) The ability to release the clutch at idle and have it PULL like a tractor is exactly what people need/want in most driving situations.

It is virtually impossible to wear out a clutch in over 200K miles of driving because you never have to 'rev' the engine when starting from a stop. Just release the clutch... then start accellerating.

It took me several months of driving a diesel to relearn how to take advantage os all of that wonderful TORQUE. A diesel LOVES to be loaded and pulling hard. 5th gear up steep grades is effortless for this engine.

I like the 50+ MPG too! Over 650 miles per tank of fuel.

Bring on the diesels DC!

jimlockey · September 2003

When you test drive a VW TDI be sure to put an adult or two in the back seat, or even better sit there yourself. The Jeep Liberty, with a diesel, will have much more room and is built just as good.

(2) Find out from someone who has owned a VW TDI and had it serviced at a VW dealer. I had one for almost two years and the preventative maintenance cost was twice, almost three time as much as my Ford Power Stroke diesel. I have owned over 30 new cars & trucks and have never been ripped off like this before.

sebring95 · September 2003

I know many folks ripped by dealers for non-necessary preventative maintenance. You have to be a very informed consumer when dealer with a "foreign" auto dealer, and sometimes domestics. If you tell them "give me the 40k mile service" you may get the whole thing rebuilt. I've seen other brands do this as well (toyota, one of the local jeep dealers, and audi to name a couple) but you really have to read your owners manual and tell them what you want done. By following the owners manual, a TDI is quite reasonable to maintain. The only expensive part is the timing belt which most aren't due until 60k-100k miles. I suspect the Liberty will be fairly easy to maintain. Diesels don't usually need much more/less than gassers, with the possible exception of fuel filters.

bpeebles · September 2003

Yup.. you are right, there are dealers that make a mint off of some people. Dont blame the VEHICLE just because of an unscrupulus dealership.

The only reason I brought up the VW here in this forum is to alert people that they can COMPARE the very different power delivery between gas-and-diesel right now at a VW dealership.

It is predicted that over the next 5 years, there will be almost TRIPPLE the diesels that are on the roads today in the USA. Once folks realize 50MPG along with more power when they need it, they will FLOCK to the diesesl verions of their favorite vehicles.

If DC delivers a reliable diesel engine, the diesel Jeep Liberty will be one of those sought-after vehicles.

jimlockey · September 2003

My average MPG / with auto trans for my 2002 New Beetle TDI was 35MPG. City driving was 33, highway driving was 38 to 44. All this depends on speed,wind conditions and how heavy your foot is. Remember this was only a 90 HP diesel engine.

I figure the Liberty diesel w/automatic will get close to the mileage of a Honda Accord V6 w/auto trans, but that's not the whole story. The torque will be outstanding.

bpeebles · September 2003

(jimlockey) There was somthing wrong with your TDI. I AVERAGE 50MPG.... and have touched 54MPG on some tankfuls. I have NEVER got less than 600 miles to a tank even before broken in.... Now, I always get over 650 miles per tank of fuel.

Also... you say this was "only" a 90 HP diesel engine. When that TDI is delivering "only" 90 HP... the same displacement gasoline engine would be produciing perhaps 75 HP. (Even though the gasoline engine may be rated at 175 HP in the higher RPMs)
My point is that one cannot use PEAK HORSEPOWER as a means to compare gasoline to diesel engines.

You are right on when you say "The torque will be outstanding."

abc246 · September 2003

is a sloowwww. I have been test driving them a few times trying to warm up to the TDI, but can't. The TDI may have torque, but has NO acceleration from a stop. Try merging on a freeway with 75 mph traffic, good luck. VW states nearly 15 sec 0 to 60 with auto! This is progress? I hope the Jeep is better than this. I actually get sick driving the TDI with auto.

sebring95 · September 2003

Somethings funky if you can't merge with traffic with a TDI. I have a steep ramp I regularly merge with at least 70mph traffic. My 5.3L V8 Tahoe (which is rated for 0-60 in 8 seconds according to the mags) struggles more than my TDI up that ramp. You're either redlining the motor (which puts the engine well beyond it's usable power range) or are driving some duds.

I do have a VA smart box though which makes a difference. Maybe 15hp. The Automatics will scoot pretty good once you learn the shifting and the tranny learns your driving style. Took me about a month to really click with it.

Jim's beetle tdi is an automatic which typically doesn't do as well on mpg as the manual. I still get well into the 40's on the highway, usually around 45mpg. If I happen to do some city driving or 100mph runs, it drops quickly. I think my all-time low was 37mpg, all-time high 50mpg. I'm 99% on the highway though so the manual really wouldn't be much more fun. I just set the cruise and leave it, even through the mountains it never downshifts. I got a very good deal on my auto TDI (used) and my wife won't drive a manual tranny. She loves driving the TDI when it's just her running around which keeps the miles/fuel out of the Tahoe and Audi A6 which is nearly as thirsty.

renegaded · October 2003

If you follow the press releases, DC said in one statement that the diesel would add about $10,000!!! Next statement... they're going to subsidize it, to get into the market. Realistically, compare a Limited with 3.7 vs. with 2.8 diesel...go to the U.K. web site - 1,000 pounds sterling; go to the Aussie site - 2,500 Aussie dollars. Both of these put you at approx $1,500 U.S. Keep your fingers crossed.
http://www.chryslerjeep.co.uk/ use TW19 6AJ as your postal code (my buddies house) or
http://www.chrysler-jeep.com.au/
My order has been in since April 03 - top of the line.

sebring95 · October 2003

If you follow the press releases, DC said in one statement that the diesel would add about $10,000!!!

They must be including all the cost of training, service parts, and everything in the book to come up with that number. I'll grab a Jeep liberty off the dealer lot and stick one of those diesel in it myself paying retail prices and end up spending less than $10,000 on the retrofit. Someone is pulling legs. Even $10,000 canadian is way too much for a light-duty diesel like this. A Cummins is only a $4,000 option on a Ram, and you know they're making money on those babies.

jimlockey · October 2003

I'm sure the $10,000 was a typo. Most manufacturers raise the cost of diesels from one to two thousand. Who knows, time will tell. If DC is real smart they will add the diesel to several vehiles.

caribou1 · October 2003

Hi,
I am a recent owner of a Jeep 'Cherokee Sport Jamboree' called 'Liberty' in the US.
I just drove 3500 Kilometers on motorways, french mountain roads and passes, a few dirt roads, rocky river bed + local city driving.

I stayed away from mud and sand due to the limitation imposed by it's standard tyres.

Considering european driving conditions, I can claim that this vehicle is pleasant and perfectly well adapted to all common situations due to it's torque and excellent 5 speed automatic gearbox.

The newer generation of diesel engines using synthetic lubricant does not burn engine oil anymore, and the maintenance period is 20,000 Km.
The only obligation to open the bonnet is when you need to refill the windscreen washer liquid.

For those who are afraid of lacking motor-braking efficiency going down long and steep slopes, the big four cylinder diesel motor does a much better job than the petrol engines.

And finally, the 'cherry on the cake' is the excellent contact with Jeep people over here.

renegaded · October 2003

North American translation, for the previous post:
Cherokee = Liberty
kilometer = 1.6 miles
tyres = tires (not a spelling mistake)
bonnet = hood
windscreen = windshield
petrol = gas
In case you didn't know.
And is Jamboree the Rocky Mountain (Canada) and Freedom (U.S.)?

bpeebles · October 2003

I beleive in this case;

petrol = diesel

renegaded · October 2003

If petrol was diesel, then the diesel couldn't be better than petrol, now could it. In Europe, gas = propane (LPG, Hank Hill), petrol = gasoline, and diesel = diesel.

bpeebles · October 2003

I stand corrected... in the discussion about engine-braking the comparison was to "petrol vehicles"

How about: spanner=wrench

I know whith my diesel... it took almost 8K miles of driving before I was comfortable with NOT SLOWING DOWN when I release the throttle pedal.

(A diesel engine does not have a throttle-plate thus releasing the throttle pedal simply stops the fuel from being injected... the engine does not have to "suck" against a throttle-plate that does not exist, This is what makes engine-braking with a diesel almost non-existant.)

caribou1 · October 2003

Hi,
Diesel engines have a high compression ratio, and even without a throttle-plate they perform as air compressors when no or little fuel is injected.
In Europe it is true that manual shifting is more commonly used on mountain roads, keeping in mind that for historical reasons we had smaller engines. Today, the use of a 'sequential' automatic gearbox could be considered as a transition. It's fine for sports cars with little mass but not really useful when torque is available.

jimlockey · October 2003

In the US GMC and Ford both have a much stronger automatic transmission for their 3/4 and one ton diesel trucks. What type transmissions will the Jeep have?

sebring95 · October 2003

The diesel Cherokees (liberty) in the UK come with a five-speed auto. Which one I don't know for sure, but I'd guess it's the 545RFE that we get in the grand cherokee. Hopefully it's not the same 4-speed the current libby gets. The 2.8L diesel puts out quite a bit more torque than the 3.7L V6 and Jeep is known for building their trannys to just handle the power delivery.

The VW auto tranny is the same in their gasser as the diesels. They either seem to die an early death due to manufacturing defect (usually well within warranty) or go forever, according to a buddy I know at VW.

Those big trucks all have heavier trannys both to handle the additional torque but also to handle the heavy towing/hauling. The Dodge 48RE and GM Allison are also available with the gas engines as well. Ford's Torqshift only comes on the diesel right now, not sure if they're going to offer it on the others or not. The Allison is probably the only auto of the group I have much faith in. Both Dodge and Ford models are new trannys, but their prior offerings weren't all that reliable for heavy hauling. I prefer a manual tranny with a diesel anyway, and the more gears the better. The six-speed on my Cummins is just plain tops.

jimlockey · October 2003

Having owned three diesels I know what torque is all about. Jeep is going to find out in a hurry when these young kids get them. The guys will love the diesels but the trannies want hold up to the additional torque. The quys on Jeepsunlimited forum have a ball with their Libberty's. The number one negative you read is the poor gas mileage for the Liberty. When they get ahold of the diesels they will be in heaven.

caribou1 · October 2003

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions.html

You can refer to the URL above to read about the new tranny. The 2.8L CRD comes with the 545RFE.
I am getting an average of 25 Miles per US gallon with diesel fuel (9.6 Liters for 100 Kilometers).

With the cruise control set to 85 MPH for several hours on our motorways, I got 22.5 MPG.

jimlockey · October 2003

If you set your transmission at 70 MPH what kind of mileage would you get?

For in town driving do you try to encourge your transmission to slip into overdrive early? I do this with my Ford diesel truck and when I had my VW Beetle diesel I also was able to do the same. This resulted in over all better mileage for both.

This will never happen, but I wish they had a automatic transmission for diesels only. There is enough torque in a diesel to drive around town in a higher gear than that of a gas model. This would result in better mileage.

caribou1 · October 2003

We have no state roads limited to 70 MPH to make the mileage info relevant. The engine runs at 2200 RPM at 70 MPH.

Town driving here is 30-35 MPH.
I usually cancel the overdrive when in 'D' position because the turbo-engine does not have adequate torque between 800-1500 RPM. If the overdrive is enabled, the hydraulic coupler tries to catch the high gear in a constant way. This is a good accoustical reminder to press the O/D button.

To drive in the city, I barely have to touch the gas pedal. The transmission shifts permanently between 1600 and 2200 RPM, adjusting to the speed, the same way the TDI, HDI, DCI european engines need to run on smaller cars.

I have the impression this combination of motor+gearbox is risky for getting overspeeding tickets in the city. Perhaps a transmission index on the third gear would have been helpful.

This 2.8L CRD behaves more like a gasoline engine for city driving. On open roads and climbing hills, you discover the torque especially when you look at the tachometer needle that rarely goes beyond 3000 RPM.

farm101 · October 2003

Any updates on a release date for diesels. We recently became interested a Liberty, have looked for a new 03 and take advantage of the best incentives. The 03s seem to be pretty well picked over though, cant one equipped to suit us but then I stumbled on info about the diesel and Im thinking we may just wait. Luv to have that over a gas burner, however if its to be several more months I dont know ????

moparbad · October 2003

Fall 04 is when they are expected to be available. I'm saving my change until then;)

ezshift5 · November 2003

..I'm happy to note. Still continuing to drive my 1982 VW Rabbit Diesel Pickup (LX) with 281k on the clock. Mostly 40 MPG around town. Sometimes 50+ enroute to Oregon...next few years should prove interesting for diesel advocacy. I'm still saving my Naval Reserve pay........ez

caribou1 · November 2003

The (2004 US) 2.8L CRD Liberty automatic is giving me:
- 25 MPG driving at a steady 50 MPH
- 23 MPG in the city or driving at 70 MPH
- 22.5 MPG driving at 85 MPH
- Off-road should be rated in Gals/hour (??)

So far, I've driven more than 4000 Miles without any problem. It's true that when the truck is cold the hand brakes moan a few seconds (~ 50 yards). I have rear disks and pulling the hand brake while moving changes the 'sound'.
Has anyone experience about the Goodyear Wrangler S4 tires that come with it ? I read comments that lead to confusion. From my experience, besides driving over fallen leaves and wet clay, the new tires seem to be quite nice and secure.

moparbad · November 2003

Two very different vehicles. Notwithstanding, whichever one is available first is likely to end up in my driveway.
Passat TDI is expected to be available late this year or early 04. Liberty was predicted as an 04 and now an 05. If it shows up Spring of 04 as an 05....

23 to 25 mpg, I was thinking 30 mpg at 50 mph. Heck, 1980 Scout that friend of family had would obtain 30 mpg with Nissan inline 6 turbo diesel when you kept it at 55 mph. And it was no lightweight.

colorado1974 · November 2003

The mileage that you quoted is exactly what I get with my 3.7L Limited. The best my trip computer gave me was 24 mpg at 65 mph on the flat. To get that I installed the MOPAR Performance Dual exhaust, use synthetic fuel and a K&N filter.

caribou1 · November 2003

Are the trip computers set to US gallons or to Imperial gallons ? You may be able to compute in either units, since this truck is used worldwide. The mileage I am getting is quoted in US gals.
The new 3.2L diesel Nissan Patrol gives the same mileage as the Liberty 2.8L CRD automatic. I've also asked people who drive vans with turbo-diesel engines, and they do get the same mileage; perhaps the resistance to penetration in air (front section) plays a role.
The Liberty comes with what we call here a 'short-gearbox' that allows to easely follow or preceed city traffic (small cars). This forces the gearbox to shift rapidly and penalises the mileage. This truck shows to be a pleasant husky toy compared to light-weight SUV's, and you get good motor braking efficiency going downhill, as long as you down-shift. At standstill on steep slopes, the Jeep doesn't go backwards when the brake is released; the other automatic SUV's I've tried did. This was a major issue in my buying criteriae.

bpeebles · November 2003

(colorado1974) I know there is biodiesel available for my TDI.... but have never heard of "synthetic fuel" please explain.

caribou1 · November 2003

Over here, the Liberty Jamboree sells for 33000 Euros. This may explain different equipment.
Common rail diesel cannot be added simply by replacing the injection pump. This system uses an electrical high pressure diesel supply pump (~1600 Bar) combined with electrical injector-valves that shoot the mixture into the cavity of the piston instead of using a precombustion chamber (RECARO type) that was built into the head of the motor. The stroke of the piston is another issue since the combustion can last 'longer', the injection cycle is more accuretaly dosed. It seems today that 100mm is a common value for this type/size of motor.
The rear quarter window antenna works fine, and surprisingly without any parasitics from the alternator. I don't have the electrically foldable mirrors. I do it manually. As of the MPG figures, I have no computer in the truck. I get these values at the time of refill. This Jeep has something of the older BMW's series 5...

caribou1 · November 2003

Here is a clear explanation of what you get with the new 2.8L CRD engine:
http://www.bankspower.com/tech_dieselevolution.cfm

bpeebles · December 2003

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_chrysler_markets_diesel/

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_ready_share_2/

moparbad · December 2003

That article is from Jan. 2003! We would have really had to have missed the news.

colorado1974 · December 2003

Just found our from our Chrysler rep that job one for the Liberty Diesel is 9/12/04. They will also have a freshened up front end, mainly the headlights/grill/turn signals. The Renegade will be a totally different look, not the current mopar bolt on application copout.

bradkurtz · December 2003

Will the 2005 Renegade be shown at the LA or Detroit Auto shows in January?

colorado1974 · December 2003

I am hoping that it will. On top of that, supply estimates have gone from 10,000 units to around 3,000 total US diesel production.

bradkurtz · December 2003

The number I have seen in several articles is 5,000 units next year, and the CEO says they will make more if the demand is there. Don't let a dealer snooker you on the availablity question!

upior · December 2003

once they buy it, they love it. I would say
20k in first two years easy. you know what I mean,
word of mouth business.....

bradkurtz · December 2003

Let's put it this way, I need a truck now, but am waiting for this thing prior to buying. I think American manufacturers have missed out with no small diesels, finally we get one.

I think they were afraid of eating into the large truck market, as those are the only US trucks that can tow anything large.

renegaded · December 2003

The number one reason (there are others) that those smaller vehicles have not been available here, is our fuel. North America has the dirtiest fuel in the world, and this speaks to emissions, but also to reliability of the CRD system. Canada has mandated clean diesel for 2006 (doesn't mean it'll happen), I don't know what the U.S. has planned.

In the case of the Liberty, think of it... they ship diesel engines from Italy to Toledo, build the truck, and ship all over the world. They could have sent test balloons in North America long ago, the Cherokee, PT Cruiser, Caravan, but they didn't, 'cause they won't run on our fuel.

With a D added to C, I don't trust DC to get it right the first time. Those diesels will again be delayed, or will be dogs, as DC blames the fuel companies and the govt. You heard it here first!

bradkurtz · December 2003

I would agree that being an early adopter has its risks. I do not know if the CRD system can handle our lower cetane dirty diesel or not.

I would add though, that GM gave diesels a terrible name in the US in the 80's and they have never really returned to the market. Speaking to the dirty fuel issue is also the Jetta and other VW diesels. These engines seem to run as well as other VW's (admittedly not a high bar) and people love them, even with our fuel.

jayrider · December 2003

Can you imagine D.C. service departments working on Italian diesel engines. And can you imagine Renegaded bringing his Jeeper Creeper in with a punch list of problems. It's the stuff that dreams are made of.

bradkurtz · December 2003

You are clearly more knowledgeable than I. Maybe I'll just pick up a used truck for hauling and a GTO...or maybe the new Mustang next year.

jayrider · December 2003

test driven the new Liberty gas V-6 ? The deals are pretty good now and if you want something bigger the 03 Durango and 04 Grand Cherokee are also good values if you want an suv 4x4. None of these have much in common with a pickup truck or a Mustang. One thing for sure, if Jeep had just released a diesel Liberty, the vehicles would hit the showroom floor loaded and for a while the deals would be brutal. It would be many years before you even broke even on the better MPG if ever. My advice is to take the time to test drive and research lots of possibilities--even those you feel are remote--you never know.Beside, it's fun. And if you're like me, price paid is a significant factor in any comparison. I'm very happy with my Liberty so far. Some people have had problems, some haven't.

Jeep Liberty Diesel

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