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in good faith reimbursed the fee we paid for the extended warranty (around $2200) and paid our first month's car payment. Now, 4 months later its in the shop again with tranny problems (now with only 7,000 miles on it). They've had it for 11 more days so far. We're hoping they'll keep it another week so it falls under the California Lemon Law. We're gonna ask for a refund instead of another Lexus. Its our first Lexus and
definitely our LAST.
Ford has the answer.....!
From the new 2007 Ford Edge PR..
"The electronically shift controlled transmission also features a variable displacement pump, which matches the amount of fluid that gets pushed through the transmission to driver demand, making it more efficient."
At full lift-throttle all of the FWD Toyota/lexus vehicles begin an upshift just as the engine RPM drops to idle. With the engine at idle the upshift will exhaust/use most, or possibly all, of the pressurized ATF.
Now if you happen to re-apply foot pressure to the accelerator pedal just as the upshift begins the engine/transaxle ECU will "know" to delay the onset of engine until the low engine "idle" RPM can build enough ATF pressure to complete the corresponding downshift.
The most obvious answer would be to increase the volume of the fixed volume ATF pump so enough pressure/flow could be provided for two sequential QUICK shifts with the engine at idle. But then most of that added volume would be bypassed, disapated as heat, as the engine RPM rises above idle.
Ford's answer, apparently, is to have a variable displacement ATF pump so it can be switched to high volume when quick/SOLID shifting is required with the engine at idle. Makes me wonder if that allowed them to eliminate the ATF pressure bypass relief spring/valve also.
That would REALLY increase transaxle efficiency.
A second option would havre been to have an ATF pressure storage accumulator (like the ABS pumpmotor asembly). But putting one of those in an already "crowded" six-speed transaxle is probably out of the question.
Anyone know if any of the newer Toyota/Lexus transaxles have either? Absent one or the other the delay/hesitation issue will undoubtedly continue.
tx,
Also does anyone know if a TSB has been issued for the problem?
I suspect the seeds were planted in about 98, with the introduction of the 1999 RX300. The earliest documented evidence was produced by Toyota themselves in a TSB issued in the spring of 2003 concerning the throttle lag, 1-2 second engine/transaxle downshift delay, new Camry owners were reporting.
To this date Toyota has not presented any evidence, publically, that the issue has been resolved, complaints continue to be posted even concerning the 2007 models.
See #1221 earlier in this forum
curt2005, "Transmission problems with Lexus ES?" #1222, 28 Aug 2006 8:50 pm
There are two interesting replies in the thread.
I think that this is a side effect of an algorithm in the engine computer designed to get better mileage and/or emissions ratings in the standard tests. It has been an issue with several Toyota models for several years.
For me, the 330 has turned out to be a great car.
Also does a certified used car come under the Lemon Law or does the car have to be brand new?
Thanks for any info you can give me.
What apparently is happening is that in an effort to improve the overall safety of FWD or front torque biased AWD vehicles vs their RWD brotheren the transaxle shift pattern has been revised to prevent engine compression braking altogether, just as Ford has done in the FWD/AWD Escape and Mariner hybrids.
The primary difference being, seemingly, that Ford only uses this technique if the OAT is hovering around or below freezing whereas Toyota and Lexus appear to use it all year around.
So my guess would be that to most easily duplicate the delay/hesitation one would need to first accelerate at a high enough rate to force a downshift, then fully release the throttle, then re-apply throttle pressure, all in a relatively short sequence, time period.
Thereby forcing a downshift(for quick acceleration), quickly followed by an upshift (so as to alleviate or reduce the level of engine compression braking) resulting from a FULL lift-throttle situation, and lastly, another downshift as a result of re-application of gas pedal pressure.
With the engine RPM having dropped to idle on that initial FULL lift-throttle event there will not be enough ATF pressure/flow to sustain two sequential transaxle shift sequences, and so the DBW system will now NOT allow the engine to develop any significant level of torque until that second shift, downshift, has completed.
Seemingly both Ford and VW have this same throttle lag, 1-2 second downshift delay in their FWD automatic transaxle vehicles. Ford has just announced that the new Ford Edge transaxle will be equipped with a variable displacement ATF pump to improve transaxle efficiency.
While it will undoubtedly, NO DOUBT, improve efficiency I suspect the base reason is to have a HIGH flow rate available with LOW engine RPM without otherwise incurring HUGE losses at normal cruise engine RPM.
A HIGH ATF pump flow rate at engine idle would eliminate the need for the DBW to intervene and delay engine torque buildup.
I have since driven the TL from Sacramento to SF and back and given a workout on some back roads. I have driven in light rain, day and night, and could not be happier with it. Okay, I could be happier if I paid less or got more features like ventilated seats, but it has lots of goodies, drives like a dream and even if it does develop problems, which is unlikely, I have them covered.
Good luck with yours.
Hi Nancy,
I have an '06 ES330 that will be ready tomorrow late in the day. It is Mystic Pearl(medium green metallic) with beige interior. Is this something you would like to take a look at?
Call me or reply to this email and let me know. I will be here from 9am to 8pm tomorrow.
Look forward to hearing from you.
The following is my reply to him. (for all the good it will do.)Hi______
The Lexus sounds beautiful. Just what I would have wanted. But I decided to purchase an Acura which I'm picking up tomorrow.
Frankly, and you can pass this on to the powers that be, all the discussion of the Lexus tranny issues on every board made me nervous. A number of people had been given replacement cars. (These were new car buyers.) A number of people with new cars were invoking the Lemon Law. And many others were just saying that they'd always bought Lexus; but this was going to be their last one and that they couldn't wait to trade it in.
I was very sad to give up the idea of buying a Lexus. I think they are beautifully appointed with a smooth, smooth ride. But transmissions that hesitate when you're trying to merge far outweighs the beauty of the car. As a matter of fact, I've heard there are unhappy customers with the 350.
Maybe salespeople aren't supposed to talk about the transmission problems, even when asked. But it would make more sense if you all would be able to admit there's been an issue and then offer some kid of reassurance that the car you're selling had not been turned in for that reason... etc. etc.
Sorry for the length of this. In no way am I flaming you. Just a word to pass on to Toyota who seems to have this problem in many of their Camrys, Avalons, etc.and has from what I've heard still not found a fix for this problem.
I wish you well, (Wish Toyota/Lexus had made the improvements so I would have been able to purchase one of your beautiful cars.)
Nancy
I’m thinking of my poor Acura experience which eventually ended up in a law suit.
Would you please explain the "ATF" and "DBW" acronyms?
Thanks.
DBW = Drive By Wire. Traditional systems implemented a cable linkage between the accelerator pedal and throttle body valve. Newer systems do this "by wire" or electronically. By doing this, the request from the pedal and also the command to the throttle body valve can be monitored, augmented, and commanded through the ECU (Engine Control Unit) to achieve higher fuel efficiencies and other system objectives like those, not limited to safety and operability.
For what it's worth (FWIW), a fairly active discussion of Hesitation in the 2007 Camry is ongoing in the 2007 Toyota Camry Woes forum.
For instance here:
toyotacarfan, "2007 Toyota Camry Woes" #2544, 30 Nov 2006 9:18 pm
Recently talked to a dealer who is selling a 07 ES350 where Lexus bought it back as part of a voluntary recall. The transmission has been fixed or rebuilt and the car only has 3k miles on it.
1. Was this an actual recall/buyback offer when the cars were first being sold?
2. Would this be a good car to purchase since it's still under warranty?
3. Has anyone else seen these cars available for sale - and at what price?
Thanks.
Why isn't there more about this in the newspapers? Maybe some negative publicity would help. It seems this has been going on for years and yet Consumers says Lexus is the most reliable car. What gives?
You can buy a Buick for half the price of a Lexus or Acura and almost as good!
Of course, it's not a Lexus!
>>
Electronically Controlled Transmission with intelligence
(ECT-i)
ECT-i uses electronic controls to adjust hydraulic pressure gradually for even smoother shifting. The ECT-i computer can also adjust for wear in the transmission, and even learn and respond to a person's driving behavior.
>>
I do not believe there is a continuously variable transmission in your vehicle.
I have a 2000 Mazda 626 auto which I always drive in one gear regardless of weather/city/hwy/speed. On steep inclines I use a lower gear and when I need power I switch off the overdrive.
So with a 5 speed automatic do the gears need to be changed while driving (what then is the use of an automatic) AND does the transmission problem on the ES300/330 occur when gears are being shifted OR does it happen regardless?
Also, I see several threads where the poster says "gear changed from A to B, etc". Is this comment based on actually changing the gears OR is the driver sensing what gears are being engaged.
i believe you were driving your Mazda w/AT as it was designed. i cannot imagine any owner's manual for an AT vehicle regardless of make or model suggesting that the AT is supposed to be operated manually all the time.
this has been one of the more dubious suggestions reported by a few owners who were instructed to do so by the dealership.
for 5spd automatics, one SHOULD be able to leave the vehicle in "D" most of the time and the gear selection will be done for you in a smooth and efficient manner most appropriate for conditions.
exceptions would be towing, incline, needing extra power for passing etc. with respect to the latter, ATs that i'm familiar with will down-shift when you command lots of throttle.
i cannot help you w.r.t. if the transmission problems exhibit themselves if the AT is manually being shifted since i don't own one of these vehicles... but i suspect it would mitigate (but probably not eliminate) a lot of problems as you are manually commanding the transmission...
when you see posters indicating their vehicles were changing gear, it is safe to say they are indicating this based on observables like changes in engine RPM, engine sound, seat of the pants feel, etc, etc, but NOT because of the operator manually commanding a change in the gearing.
I have since had a second sudden acceleration incident on Monday, December 4, 2006 under the same circumstances as the first. When pulling into a parking space at work returning from lunch, I had my foot lightly on the brake controlling the speed of the car as I was turning left into the parking space. Just as I gently applied more pressure to the brake to stop the car, the engine surged and the car took off again. I thought, “oh no, here we go again”. This time I was prepared and jammed the brake with all of my strength to the floor and held the brake down to the floor. The car stopped in time just short of running into the tree that was in front of my parking space. My foot was never on the accelerator pedal the whole time I was entering the parking space. I contacted Lexus customer service for the second time and they sent a tech out to inspect the vehicle. Of course, they say the vehicle is operating normally and there is nothing wrong with the vehicle.
I'm wondering whether all of you who've had trouble (and it seems like a lot) have tried contacting Consumer Reports which always gives glowing reviews to Lexus, or J.D. Powers or whatever government agencies might be appropriate. There is something outrageous about selling unsafe cars and continuing to do so since the redesigned '07 Lexus and the '07 Avalons etc. still display the same issues.
(My Acura is not as smooth or quiet a ride as a Lexus, nor does it have as luxurious an interior; but so far it's been reliable.)
there are others who believe it's possible you have a problem with one of the DBW (drive by wire) components in the vehicle (like the accelerator pedal mechanicals or sensors, the throttle body mechanicals or sensors, the valve positioning motor, the engine control unit, etc).
unfortunately, this is going to be one of those cases where you are considered at fault unless you personally invest the $$$ in systems forensics and they are able to determine the problem is with a part of the vehicle, not you.
how would that help you in terms of your accident or your insurance rates? probably it wouldn't. but, if you had independant analysis that was sound and pointed to a system problem, you could probably get favorable terms with the manufacturer, but you'd probably be bound not to release any of the information you uncovered.
if more and more people report issues to a site like the NHTSA, one would hope a government entity would review the design / implementation and then have an independant testing laboratory attempt to get to root cause.
people experience flakey and infrequent problems with complex systems all the time, and yes, after the fact, a most superficial review by others often cites human error and "nothing is wrong" with the system.
we often blame ourselves for a program that errantly produces some unexpected result, when in fact, it's a programming bug which we've just experienced...