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First, you conclude that there's no safety issue because someone is going for arbitration instead of suing. Did it ever occur to you to read your manual? You HAVE to go to arbitration first. If you sue first, it will get thrown out of court. Not to mention that the evidentiary demands are greater if you sue - AND the cost.
Then you conclude that the car is safe because it hasn't yet been recalled. So the Ford Explorer was safe the day before NHTSA recalled it, but suddenly became unsafe the day after? The fact that NHTSA hasn't gotten around to it doesn't mean anything. They tend to go for the higher volume vehicles first. Now, if you had some evidence that they had investigated the matter and decided not to pursue it, you might have a point. But since that's not the case, you're wrong.
I drive the car every day. There are many, many occasions where the long lag time before it accelerates creates an unsafe condition.
At Toyota and Lexus dealers, and the Edmunds Town Hall website, owners frequently complain of hesitation and surging in 2004 models (Camry, Highlander, Sienna, ES330 and RX330). Yet, Toyota claims there is no defect, and no safety problem with the transaxle and drive by wire throttle/software system—this is “normal” performance because all their cars do it.
Based on the NHTSA database of 2004 owner reports:
• There are 13 reports of accidents with property damage, personal injury and one death related to the transmission/throttle system. (7 times the equivalent Ford and Honda accident rate!).
• Owners of V6 models (Sienna, ES330 and RX330) are 15 times more likely than Ford and Honda owners to file a hesitation/surging complaint—Could it be because a) they have more problems b) Toyota refuses to acknowledge (or fix) the problem and c) it’s NHTSA’s job to step in when a manufacturer won’t voluntarily correct their safety defects?
• The majority of V6 Toyota owners filing a hesitation/surging complaint state the car is unsafe. (Of the significantly fewer transmission complaints from Ford and Honda owners, none reported it as a safety hazard!)
I thought our ES330 had a seat rattle until I figured this out.
I asked the dealer to look into it a the 5K check but they were unable to duplicate it.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Initially I thought you were kidding with this response, but I think you're serious. How can your dealer fix something that doesn't appear to be broken. If your problem can't be duplicated, what is he supposed to fix? Surely, you can't expect them to replace the whole seat when it appears fine. Let's say you have a leak in your roof, but it only leaks when the rain comes from one direction with high wind, but you don't know the direction. Before the roofer can see you there are several more storms, but no leaks. Unless the exact shingle can be found, do you expect a new roof? One has to find the source of a problem to fix it.
To start, they asked if I wanted to negotiate with Lexus to solve the problem. I agreed and they left the room. All Lexus wanted to do was let me trade my car in on a different model and pay the difference. That's not much of a resolution - since I can do that any time I want. I declined.
After all the preliminaries, I started with a description of the problem and documenting evidence (including NHTSA reports were 50% of all ES problems were related to this problem, reports from this board, reports from edmunds.com, and a letter from Lexus admitting that there was a transmission problem).
Lexus got to respond. They stated that there was no problem and it was simply a matter of my driving style. They argued that the car was within specs.
I then asked them what the specification on transmission hesistation was. They admitted that there is no spec on this parameter. I asked how they determined that my car was within design parameters if there's no spec. They said that they compare it to other cars of the same year and make. I then said "so if every ES has the same problem, you will then say that mine is normal?". She refused to answer the question.
One of the arbitrators asked if there was any record of accidents caused by this problem. I wasn't aware of any, nor was Lexus.
We then did the test drive. The car hesitated right on cue. No question about that.
After coming back into the room, we each gave our closing statement. Lexus repeated that it was a 'shifting style' problem and not a real problem. I repeated that by Lexus definition, if 100% of the cars had their wheels fall of, it would not be considered a problem. In reality, the hundreds of complaints as well as the results of the test drive show that it was a real problem.
I'll know within 10 days. If I don't win this, then I'd say that there's little chance of ever winning an arbitration hearing. The evidence was pretty clear.
I'll let everyone know how it turns out.
#581
I too have a 2004 ES with an annoying rattle from either the front passenger seat or door. I can't seem to figure out the source of the noise. I'm pretty sure that if I move the passenger seat all the way forward the noise disappears.
I asked the dealer to look into it a the 5K check but they were unable to duplicate it.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
So you see the customer and the factory sort of play "bookends" on the dealer and he plays both sides as best he can.
Don't presume the relationship between dealer and factory is all warm and cuddley. Far from it, they are often at war, sometimes at peace.
I think everybody involved wants someone else to be holding the bag, is what it boils down to.
ps: The problem isn't always obvious in the test drive because of the adaptive learning "feature", it can first occur after a couple thousand miles!
Everyone is different. Some think the tranny is dangerous, others don't seem to notice. Such a variation is difficult to explain, but many people think that the transmission performance is consistent from car to car and that the real difference is in "how you drive".
If you are someone who is very demanding of precision performance or if you have been use to drivng a BMW or similar German-made car, you could be disappointed with the ES.
On the other hand, if you don't drive aggressively and are moving up to the Lexus brand, you might be satisfied with the ES.
I would suggest that you talk to as many owners and test drive the ES as much as you can to decide for yourself.
I've owned Toyotas and earlier model Lexus vehicle and this ES with the 5sp tranny shifts rougher and hesitates far more than my previous '95 Avalon and my wife's 01 RX300.
Best of luck in your assessment.
Thanks.
Lexus will claim that the car is operating within specifications. Simply ask them what the specification is for acceptable shift time. They will then say 'we don't have a specification, it depends on circumstances.' Point out that this statement is inconsistent with a flat statement that it is with specifications.
Another approach is to ask Lexus to search their computer database to determine how many people have brought their ES in for transmission complaints. The Lexus person said that they had that information, but did not have immediate access to it. She did say 'it's not a significant percentage' which I find very hard to believe. Everyone I know has complained at least once. You might be able to press them for statistics - what percent of all ES owners brought the car in at least once with a complaint of transmission problems?' If you could get this answer, it might strengthen the argument immensely.
The other approach I used was in response to the 'the car operates as designed'. I asked 'did you design the car with a multisecond delay in shifting?' The Lexus person will ALWAYS refuse to answer that - don't let them off the hook. If they say that the car was DESIGNED to have a 2 second delay, they look foolish - and you can then easily say that's a defective design. If, on the other hand, they say that the car should NOT have a 2 second delay, you can show that your car is NOT operating as designed. They lose either way.
Depending on the arbitrator, you may be able to push harder. I asked 'since you don't have a specification, how did you know that my car was operating as designed?' The Lexus person said 'we compare your car to other cars with the same model and year.' I pointed out at that point that by this definition if 100% of the cars had a fatal flaw it would be OK since they're all the same way.
Finally, I printed out about 50 pages of docs from the NHTSA site, this site and the Lexus Owner's club. I had identified several hundred complaints on the issue. That makes it harder for Lexus to say that it's not a problem.
You might also bring in a couple of Lexus ads claiming that they offer 'pursuit of perfection'.
However, I don't want to get anyone's hopes up. The arbitrators are supposed to be completely independent and I felt that they were. They asked one good question 'does anyone know of an accident caused by the delay?' Lexus said that there were none and I was not aware of any. That weakens the argument that the problem is so severe that Lexus should refund $35 K. I'm not aware of anyone who's won an arbitration hearing.
Good luck.
Given that the Lexus person admitted that they didn't have any specifications and that their 'the car meets design criteria' REALLY meant that 'all of the ES cars do that', I don't think the hearing could have gone any better.
I guess they were swayed by the fact that there have been no accidents reported.
I don't have the time to get a lawyer, but if anyone is starting a class action, I'll join in.
No. I believe Toyota dealers will not honor the warranty.
I think it all depends on which arbitrator you get. I went through arbitration with a dealer because of a faulty transmission on a Toyota Tacoma. The arbitrator didn't even need to take a test drive. He made his decision only on the records I kept(under the Lemon Law) and that was good enough. The only difference is that the Service Manager agreed that there was a problem. The dealer refunded the entire cost of the vehicle on a pro-rata basis. (Six months of ownership was subtracted).
I am not convinced that all of the arbitrators are impartial. We don't know what kind of kick-backs are being passed around.
Lexus may have one this one, but they lost the war. We have about 20 US divisions and the Presidents are allowed to spend $35 K every 4 years for a new car. I will make sure that every one of them knows about this problem. There's a good chance that they'll lose quite a few sales from that alone.
Not to mention that I will continue to tell everyone I know who's considering a Lexus - both here and in other forums.
And sure as heck I'm never buying another one. Since I buy 2 cars every 3-4 years, they're losing out. If it weren't for the transmission and the way they dealt with it, the Lexus would have been my choice almost every time.
I wonder why they're too stupid to realize how much their handling of this issue is costing them?
If they couldn't make it SULEV and keep it safe, they should have passed on the SULEV thing.
The following day he called me back with a price for my ES300 of 22K. I was insulted- I’ve had the car merely 15 months and it has 21,000 miles. This is no where near the blue book value, nor is it any compensation for the fact that Lexus has sold me a faulty vehicle. In addition, the price he was willing to give me on the RX330 was not invoice minus 2% holdback.
I was curious what if they ever gave you a price when they offered you a trade. I can go anywhere else and get a better deal than they were offering.
Below is the response I got back from corporate as well as my reply:
Thank you for contacting Lexus Customer Satisfaction regarding your 2003 ES 300. We appreciate the time you have taken to share your thoughts.
Upon further review of your service history, Lexus has determined that there is nothing defective with your vehicle's transmission. It is operating as designed. We apologize you are dissatisfied with the driving response characteristic but there are no further technical updates to address your concern. We have documented your dissatisfaction here at our national headquarters for future product consideration.
If you are still dissatisfied with our position, you may pursue your rights under your state's Lemon Law or through third party arbitration with the National Center for Dispute Settlement. They can be reached at 1-866-272-4872. Please refer to the Owner's Manual Supplement for more information. Again, we are sorry for any inconvenience this situation has caused you.
If you would like to discuss your concerns further, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.
My Reply:
If the vehicle is operating as designed, what is the specification for acceptable shift time? I do not care that you have documented my dissatifaction for future product consideration, I only care about what you can do to remedy my situation. In addition, I do not appreciate the "canned" response to my inquiry, as I know that the many others who have complained about this issue have gotten the EXACT same response.
End
To conclude, I feel the pain that you and many others are going through, and I am ready to take this to the next level.
Lexus also offered me a similar deal. Big deal. They would let me trade my car on a new car. I wonder if that's supposed to impress me? If I wanted to trade my year old car on a new car it would NOT be a Lexus.
If you decide to see an attorny and file a class action, let me know. I'll join.
I have been in constant communication with Lexus Customer Service in California, and they told me yesterday that my car is operating fine and if I was not happy with their answer to go call some arbitration number.
My response, is that we need to hire an attorney and file a class action lawsuit against Toyota to get them to fix this problem.
I will never own a Lexus again. I have reported my vehicle to the NHTSA.
Again without your help and without the others that contribute on these boards that deal would never have happened. Thanks....
As a side note, I feel Lexus customer service used to be better back when they weren't #1 yet. But I guess that's to be expected when they're fighting for #1 rather than simply holding the top spot.
More frustrating than dealing with Lexus, is knowing that there are so many unhappy people out there willing to accept this product. If people would file with the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, noting the dangers of this tranny, we might get some action. I've also contacted my congressman, senators and written news agencies and magazines. When you're only one person complaining it doesn't get much notice.
I tried finding an attorney to sue Lexus. The three I talked with thought I had a good case, but utlimately they didn't want to take it forward.
Good luck to you in your fight. Atlanta's Lexus Rep admitted to me they had thousands of unhappy customers with the ES, but the Japanese were happy with last years software upgrade and they weren't doing anything more. He recommended I take them to Lemon Law court. I'm so glad I paid extra for a Lexus.
I guess it's easy for them to lie in an arbitration hearing.
I have a 2004 Solara V6 which I believe has the same engine as the ES330. I also experience the damn hesitation and have 2 questions for you regarding the arbitration.
During the arbitration, will you get a chance to question the arbitrators' rational about whether any accidents caused by this delay in shifting? Also, which state are you in?
Thanks.
The actual procedure has some slack. Technically, I don't think you're supposed to be able to ask the manufacturer any questions, but they let me do it.
The way it transpired is that they asked the dealer if they knew of any accidents and they said 'no'. They asked me and I said 'no'. They asked if any had been reported on NHTSA and again the answer was 'no'.
Basically, I'm not very optimistic about the arbitration process. In my mind, there's a clear defect and the manufacturer admtted that they lied about the presence of the defect - yet I still lost.
I'm still hoping someone will file a class action so I can join.
I'm trying to gather as much ammo as I can right now. I already have a toyota technician put down that he noticed a delay in shifting in the work paper. He does indicated it's operating as designed though. So I don't know how much support I can get out of it when I go to arbitration. I am planning to bring it in again tomorrow to have another dealership checked it out. Just so that I can get it documented.
The arbitration does seem sketchy. How can a decision being decided by whether there're accidents or not. Totally ridiculous. It sounds like if no one gets killed, a faulty brake is OK in cars.
If there are no accidents attributed to the problem, then the deficiency will, by definition be viewed as at most an annoyance. And damages cannot be attributed to annoyances.
Things like this transmission problem most certainly do reduce the value of the car - at least to me.
There's nothing in the arbitration standard that requires damage, injury or DIRECT financial damages.
I said:
"Actually, damages CAN be attributed to annoyances. The standard for arbitration is something like 'reduces the safety, reliability, or value' of the car.
Things like this transmission problem most certainly do reduce the value of the car - at least to me"
I spcifically did NOT claim that it was a safety issue. I said it was a value issue. You might find that your life would be easier if you learned to read what people wrote before responding.
Furrhermore, I beleive it COULD BE a safety issue - even though no accidents have yet been reported to NHTSA. There is a delay of 1-3 seconds when you try to accelerate hard. When trying to enter a freeway on-ramp, 1-3 seconds could easily cause an accident. If anything happens to me or my little girl because of this transmission delay, Lexus is going to find themselves facing a lawsuit bigger than they can comprehend. They've had ample warning and chances to fix the problem and refuse to do so.
But when you are talking lawsuits, you are talking about assigning a monetary value to the damages. And the monetary value has to be such that a lawyer finds it worth his while to help you and such that you yourself find it worth your while to go after the damages. Intuitively, it would be pretty hard to gather the evidence needed to award damages to owners due to the hesitation problem.
Texas83, in effect, found it worth his while to go after his compensation. And Lexus finally figured out how to stop the squeaky wheel. I imagine it took lots of hours of his time to get his resolution, which, in effect, serves as his damages.
But as far as a class action suit goes, unless there are accidents, it is unlikely that such a suit will be successful, in my opinion.
In my case, I don't find myself damaged enough by the transmission issue to pursue it as texas83 did. Although I'd love for Lexus to fix the transmission, it would not be worth my while to pursue damages. It is not worth the cost to me in time and/or money and/or frustration.
Did you have to get an Attorney to go through the Lemon Law process?
Thanks,
2. The post wasn't necessarily targeted at you. It was just a general statement based on the few posts preceding it.
3. I read your post just fine. Maybe you should calm down!"
If you weren't replying to me, why is my name in the title of your post?
And if you read what I wrote, why does your response completely ignore it?