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Comments
When I was considering buying an used Lexus from Carmax they wanted me to pay a non-refundable transportation fee, since the car was in Houston. If I didn't buy the car once it arrived I lost my money. I told them to beat it.
I never would have my 2005 Lexus if I hadn't driven it first.
The same statement could be used concerning initial reviews of the redesigned 2002 ES300.
I pretty much expect praise when reading car reviews, especially in cases in which the publisher wants to remain on the manufacturer's good side (for advertising reasons, etc.). But I think as long as 1 review mentions an issue, it should be duly noted if you are one that might be seriously bothered by the mentioned issue. After all, there are many people happy with the ES300 5spd transmission and are oblivious to any "issues" with it that others are experiencing.
Seeing user reviews from those who couldn't stand the previous 5-spd transmission but find the new one in the Avalon to be silky smooth after daily driving would be most convincing.
I thought Avalon is more like Toyota's LS, not ES.
Lexus wants their car classified as an ULEV vehicle and wants to maximize MPG. The concern is that when you step on the gas, you don't want the fuel injectors dumping lots of fuel into the system until the rpms are high enough to get enough air to burn it properly. If you just dump the fuel in instantaneously (which the dbw system should be able to do), a lot of it ends up flying out your tailpipe unburned.
So Lexus inserts a delay into the programming - which requires that the fuel addition never exceed the rate consistent with proper burning. IOW, you can't get a fuel-rich environment. The lag is long enough that the delay is noticeable. it seems to me that they should be able to do this with a much shorter delay - and still meet their economy and emissions standards.
Evidence for this is found in the fact that the Canadian versions are reported not to have the same problem (at least, this was true in 2003) - presumably because the Canadian emissions and economy standards are different, so they can allow for a faster fuel injection response.
But I agree. Someone is likely to get killed - and given that Lexus has had many, many warnings (as well as many dozens of complaints to NHTSA), they could lose big time.
By the way, everyone should make sure they complain to NHTSA at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/. They're apparently starting an investigation of the hesitation issues on the Lexus ES model.
I was accusing my wife of messing with the memory
but now I believe her. The memory seems to last for about a week, and then it moves alittle here and there.
I also have a creaking problem, I thought it was aloose seat, but now I think the problem is in the passenger headrest being too loose, and that is something that cant be fixed.
By the way, replacing the seat did no good. I set memory 1 AND memory 2 to the same setting. 2 months later, I reset memory 1 to the correct setting. I showed the Lexus tech the difference in the settings 4 days ago. The seat moves forward from the original setting by at least 1 inch, if not 2. The techs response was to suggest that someone had changed the setting. I am pretty sure that this is just an example of a piece of equipment on the car that will never work properly (all though I am pretty sure that I will be told that it operates within design specs).
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about transmission problems - hesitation when accelerating and rough shifting. This TSB, titled "ECM Calibration: Shift Feeling Enhancement" - is a recalibration of the Engine Control Module. It is supposed to:
- Reduce downshift lag when accelerating
- Reduce gear hunting when driving on/off accelerator pedal between 10 and 20 mph
- Improve response rate during heavy acceleration from a stop
The TSB number I was given was: TC 004-03 for "ECM Calibration". I understand that it was issued for April, 2005.
I believe that the transmission in the RX330s are similar or the same as that of the ES330; whether the TSB may apply to you depends on when your car was manufactured.
I hope that this is helpful to those of you who are experiencing hesitation problems with these cars.
There was an article around April 12 in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette that stated that the software fix was for all 2002 - 2005 Toyota and Lexus models with the 5-speed auto transmission. However, as far as I know, the only TSB issued so far is for the ES300/330. Someone (was it you bkinblk?) spoke to their dealership and was told that the software upgrade was intially being tested on the ES300/330 and would slowly be released over the summer, I think, for the other models. Also, bkinblk who posted above was told of a solenoid upgrade/repair for the hesitation problem.
Sounds like Toyota is doing something. If and when it will be applied to the '05 Avalon, I don't know. You could try calling the Toyota corporate customer service number. I answered someone's question in the 2005 Avalon discussion forum in regards to hesitation and the other posters there are pretty sensitive about discussion of a potential problem in the Avalon, LOL, and adamantly insist that the problem does not exist in the '05 Avalon. Could you describe your symptoms in more detail?
-------------------
Editting to add link to the referenced article:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05102/486687.stm
Please advise. Thanks
1) Toyota does not admit there is a problem.
2) If there is a problem, it does not have an inexpensive solution. Lexus has tried using firmware to fix it, and it does not work, implying a system hardware/firmware redesign, which would be prohibitivly expensive for Lexus/Toyota. The fact that many drivers do not admit a problem does not help here.
3) Lexus owners have been complaining about the problem for three years and no response from Lexus regarding a real fix.
5) At this point, with fewer than two model years to go, I can't see a complete redesign of the drive train system, with Toyota replacing the system in all existing vehicles. I just don't see it, particularly since it has not been verified that it is a safety issue.
As a potential owner who cared significantly about the problem, I would wait until 2007 to see if the problem resolves itself. Even then, if I were a betting person, I'd guess the problem would be there in the 2007 vehicle, for another five years as well.
It may be premature to assume that the recently released updated TSB: TC004-03 firmware upgrade won't be effective. Only time will tell. Based on the prior TSB update released in late '03 which didn't work, I assume that we will see a repeat and it won't cure the problem.
The real problem, imo, is atoew's point #1 "Toyota/Lexus does not admit there is a problem. Owner's have complained for three years and still nothing is done to "solve" the problem." Just band-aid firmware upgrades that attempt to appease the unhappy owners.
I have to agree with atoews that there must be a serious system hardware problem that would be costly to fix and Toyota/Lexus is unwilling to do so in the absence of proven safety problems. Notice that all of the new models (GS, Avalon, etc) are avoiding the same drive train.
The ES continues to slide in rankings against the Acura TL, BMW 3 series, and Infiniti; I believe because of the drive train issues with the ES.
I am scheduled to have the TSB update done during my next service visit. I will share my thoughts then. I will admit that I am biased and not expecting to see much improvement.
At this point, I wouldn't even consider the ES as an option if I was looking to purchase an entry level Luxury sedan. ( I have been a loyal Lexus / Toyota customer and have owned 2 prior Lexus and 2 prior Toyota vehicles ). This experience has been unacceptable for me to be a return customer again.
I, too will have the TSB inplemented at my next service. I will also let folks know how it goes.
You also may want to consider reporting your results in the Engine Hesitation forum here at Edmunds ( http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef4cdbd/1070 ) which has nearly 100% of the posts about the Toyota/Lexus problem. This is a good forum to discuss the problem and solutions collectively with owners of the other Toyota/Lexus models having this trouble.
About the tranny fluid, some owners were noting that the tranny fluid level was well over the maximum line when hot. Excessive tranny fluid could cause it to froth and end result could be hesitation. It would be very strange if this was the cause of the problem all along, but I doubt it. It would be interesting if others with hesitation could check the level of transmission fluid.
Will never know if bkinblk's (on the Engine Hesitation forum) results are due to the fluid level being drained or the new solenoid since both were done at the same time..
This indicates to me that some cars have the upgraded firmware out of the factory. It makes it difficult to do apples-to-apples comparisons of the problem on this board, because people generally won't know whether or not their vehicle has the upgrade version of the firmware. Another irritant.
"I started this thread on May 20, 2003, so if you go back to my first post it'll explain why I absolutely hated this ES's performance, from the time I picked up this brand new car from my Lexus dealer.
Well, I can finally tell you that I'm completely satisfied with this new transmission calibration. Gone is the hesitation! Gone is the transmission hunting for the proper gear to go into! Gone is the lagging feeling as you go from a standing start.
Today I picked up the car and immediately noticed a vast difference as I drove off the first time. Mind you, the transmission didn't even know my driving habits, so it didn't make any minor electronic adjustments to make it feel any better.
Now the car responds like a good transmission is supposed to.....downshifts at the proper RPM and upshifts at the proper RPM. Like steviej said in an above post, it sorta feels like a manual transmission, where you would normally shift the car. It's beautiful.
There is no more of having to adjust your driving style as you had to do before this upgrade. It now knows!!
Lexus finally got it right!"
One of the other members(steviej-2002 ES), from from the 'Lexus Owners' messageboard has driven his car approximately 1500 miles, and here are his findings:
"It has been almost 1500 miles since the reflash. (A round trip from Boston to Toronto will do that to your odometer)
1. The shifting is still very pleasing to me.
2. There is no joggle at 40 mph.
3. The shifting on the highway is very nice when passing and getting up to speed rapidly.
4. Only once did I feel the dreaded redline and no shifting. However, it was from 10 mph, I floored it, going up a steep hill while turning right coming out of a mall.
5. I am in learning mode too, so I am still getting used to the shifting. I keep expecting the old tranny to come back. So far so good.
My travel to Toronto and back was all major highways. I averaged 29.5 mpg for the entire trip, and it was mostly driving 75-80 mph.
I will post in two or three tankfuls the mpg for around town driving.
steviej"
So, at this point I have to say that everything seems to be A-OK.
Alan
I had the latest software "patch" completed about 3 weeks ago and have subsequently driven about 1300 miles. This was mostly highway driving at speeds of 60-80 mph, but at least 300 miles of city stop and go and speeds from 0 - 50.
I will be as objective as I can, since I think this is extremely important given the significant (3+ years) history of documented problems with the 2002-2005 ES 300/330 transmission.
First of all, the service writer at my Lexus dealership (whom I have the greatest respect for) told me that I should expect the car to drive "just like it did when it was new". I have read this comment in several posts above and believe that it comes from Lexus headquarters. He also described that the change is primarily in adding new "shift points" which have been set higher to allow higher rpm and vehicle speed prior to shifting. He also said that it will take several thousand miles for the car to re-learn my driving habits - as before and as is characteristic of the "drive by wire" throttle system on the ES, RX, etc.
My experience is that the shift points are indeed higher. Shifting from 1st to 2nd is not noticeable, but shifting from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th occurs at rpm close to 4000. I believe the car use to shift at around 2300rpm. The result is that I have noticed that the engine tends to "race" a bit when accelerating quickly from stop to highway speed. Personally I don't mind this change.
The other noticeable improvement is that when driving in stop and go traffic below 25 mph, the transmission doesn't "search" for the appropriate gear as much as before. It stays in 2nd longer and therefore the "abrupt" and "rough" shifting that was extremely annoying to me while in rush hour commuting (characteristic of the ES) is significantly improved.
The most noticeable "rough" shifting has occurred while accelerating up hill at around 30-40 mph. This was very rough and "worse" than I had remembered experiencing before the "upgrade".
I averaged about 28.5 mpg on a highway trip of 1000 miles, which I believe is similar to slightly better than what I had experienced prior to the upgrade. My usual daily commute average was closer to 22.5 mpg prior to upgrade, and I'm anxious to see how that compares - post upgrade.
Overall, I am cautiously optimistic that I will see some improvement. To quote Ronald Reagan, "trust but verify".
One other observation: while my '03 was in getting service, I was given a '05 model that demonstrated the same "hesitation, rough-shifting", and "gear-searching" that has been reported frequently in the posts above. I can't understand why some drivers of the ES don't notice these problems, which are clearly present in every ES that I have driven since 2002. I assumed that the loaner hadn't had the "upgrade" completed yet. It had about 8,000 miles on the odo, if I remember.
I feel as though the experience is rougher on the highway than it was before the upgrade, which is what has been advertised. There was a little bit of slipping/surging but it is not too bad, however.
Perhaps my highway experience stems from the upgraded transmission not having learned my driving style but I doubt it. I have driven numerous ES300/ES330s and my experience is that the "learning" thing does not have a large impact. I do not experience my own vehicle (which supposedly knows my driving style) much differently than I do the loaners I have driven.
When I have driven more in-city stop and go driving, I'll provide an update on that.
By the way, toydriver, I am with you in that I do not understand how some owners do not experience the symptom.
I have driven some with the issue and some without.
I do hope the latest fix is truly that because a lot of folks are unhappy.
1) This is a Toyota drive-train design issue
or
2) It is not a design issue, but some individual vehicle issue.
I believe it is a design issue, which means that all vehicles are impacted to one degree or another. I have driven 7 or 8 ES300/330s and have been able to repeat the problem in all of them. The problem does not feel identical in all vehicles, but it is close enough for me to conclude it is the same problem and it is in all vehicles. I am convinced that differences among drivers' experiences are more a result of varying driver perception than of actual design or manufacturing differences from one vehicle to the next. I might take it one step further and say that driver perception depends somewhat on the gap between drivers' expectations of what it should feel like versus what it really does feel like. I recall my sister saying she felt it but did not think it was a big deal.
I agree with many on this forum. It may not be a big deal on a less expensive car, but this is supposed to be a high class somewhat luxurious vehicle. The hesitating drive train should be somewhat of an embarrassment to a company who touts its "passionate pursuit of perfection". Well, they missed the mark on this one and it seems they should take responsibility for it. That they refuse to admit or accept that they missed the perfection mark on this vehicle is almost as irritating to me as is the problem itself and I suspect that a lot of owners share my sentiments.
I view the ES-330 as an entry level vehicle for Lexus. If this is how Lexus is going to treat me with the ES, there is no way that I will move up the model chain. As the saying goes, fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
FWIW: there are owners in the Engine Hesitation - All Makes and Models forum reporting hesitation in Camry and Highlander vehicles as well for those interested in the topic.