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I have just engaged an attorney to assist in some type of remedy for my 05 ES330 due to the transmission problems, and any helpful experiences would be appreciated.
wilmill, "Transmission problems with Lexus ES-300 ?" #343, 10 Dec 2003 11:27 am
They offered no real explanation (things fail?) but said a new transmission might be a good idea (Toyota @ $3200), they proceeded to say the vehicle which has 80,000 miles might go on for another year or longer without problems-? but did not know, unfortunately the car is out of warranty by a less than a year. It has been a great car (for 6 years) except for this issue. I thought I was the only one with this issue. I was even looking at new 05, 06's ES 330's but may reconsider now, which is to bad, as it’s a good luxury car with a bad design flaw. You would think Toyota or Lexus would remedy this issue, as this transmission must be used in other Toyota vehicles.
How about the modertors or the editors of Edmounds using their powers of persuasion to contact Lexus re; this seemingly huge issue i.e. many posts on this from different people with Lexus/Toyota products?? As they don't seem to listen to the little guy unless we all stop buying Toyota products which will not happen.
The bottom line is that we were hoping that the 1999 Lexus ES300, which we bought brand spanking new at the time would give us trouble free driving and for the most part it did... But a luxury car of this price & caliber should not experinece an ongoing issue.
In my humble opinion the fault seems to be a Toyota design issue rather than an individual(s) driving habit, this flaw has not been resolved in subsequent model years, from researching all the posts/complaints in this forum. For every post there "might" be others out there who have no clue and others who have no problems but it seems as though the Lexus/Toyota issue is ongoing and unresolved.
We were going to upgrade to a newer model or a take step up in the Lexus model lineup-- but I am not convinced the transmissions failure or surging/hesatation issues are resolved...
I have had the TSB upgrade, and it helped for about 500-1,000 miles - but now its just as bad as it ever was. Most noticeable in traffic, parking lots/garages, etc. - basically at speeds below 20mph. It also has some shift problems at speeds just below 40mph.
Does anyone out there have any suggestions - other than just eating the $3,000 that I'm currently upside down? It seems that the only success anyone has had was in 2003, when this was still a fairly new problem. Now that it has gone on for 5 model years (2002-2006), it seems as though Lexus isn't willing to do anything.
They obviously have transmissions that don't have this problem (used in other models), so why can't they make this problem go away?
Why hasn't a class action been filed or successful?
Why doesn't the lemon law appear to protect us on this?
Why, Why, Why????
Why no class action or lemon law results? I submit there are probably many reasons.
First reason? It's plainly not a big deal for the vast majority of owners, otherwise it would be talked about a lot more than it is.
Second reason? It doesn't even exist for most owners, and it certainly isn't a widespread issue. Most discussions about it in these forums seem to be dominated by the same group of posters. There doesn't appear to be a broad cross section of complaints from a diverse group.
Third reason? It evidently isn't enough of a "winner" for most lawyers.
Fourth reason? Lemon law usually works if there's a doable issue being contested, and evidently that hasn't been the case with this one.
Fifth reason? It isn't a safety issue. No one has been able to show why it should be one.
Sixth reason? There's a TSB out there for anyone to apply for if they think they have a problem--and it appears to work for most who've had it done.
Seventh reason? Lately there's been little discussion aboout it, which indicates it may have disappeared on its own. How do we know that it hasn't been "fixed" anyway?
Eighth reason? It apparently happens when drivers induce it under a very narrow set of driving circumstances. Most folks probably don't experience that narrow set of circumstances very often, if at all.
It's too bad you feel the way you do about your ride. Perhaps the best thing for you to do is get rid of it and move on. There are worse things to cry over in this world.
So obviously something random is going on here making it seemingly impossible for anyone to predict which 5-speed transaxle equipped cars rolling off the production line will be subject to the problem.
I'm quite certain that Toyota is working very hard to remove the "X" from the equation and when they know then we will knowsoon after. Until then it might be best to stay away from any Toyota or Lexus 5-speed transaxle equipped vehicle.
An interesting statement to make considering that you don't even own one of the affected vehicles, and have never personally driven one and experienced the specific hesitation being discussed. So, without any first hand knowledge of the the actual intensity, duration or frequency of this problem, I have to question the motivation in making such a statement.
I have a car with that transaxle that drives great, as do two others I know of personally. I think that making statements like you made above, or giving blanket recommendations, especially based soley on secondhand information, is not appropriate. And again, I have to question the motivation here.
your observation that initially the TSB helped, but then certain behaviors returned is something to take note of; it's possible there are a few behaviors the manufacturer is trying to remedy with the TSB, and your vehicle just doesn't fall into the targeted population.
you are the best judge as to the drivability and safety of this vehicle for you and your family.
therefore, the advice provided to you to get out of the vehicle (and incur any financial hit) is probably wise, as no one truely knows if and when a permanent fix for vehicles like yours will be possible and made available.
good luck to you.
billran: i apologize for being unable to retract or otherwise address my post that you had been marginalizing another poster in another forum on this issue. the post was meant to be directed to another poster. sincere regards to you.
Some people have had luck with arbitration, so you may want to consider that route. In the meantime, why don't you file a complaint with the NHTSA at www.nhtsa.gov? They were doing an investigation into this problem, but I don't know what ever came of it. Also, the Center for Auto Safety can sometimes get automakers to respond to a problem. You can find them at www.autosafety.org.
Good Luck.
Scoti1 you seem to be a helpful fella and often appear in most all Toyota and Lexus forums. You are a wealth of information about problems or how to get attention about complaints.
I must ask you something if you don't mind. This is not meant to be a criticism of what you do, but why is it you only appear in Toyota or Lexus forums and only focus on Toyota Lexus complaints? Do you have a personal issue with them, and what might that be?
So I am still curious why you settled on Toyota Lexus
as your main focus? Is it because of problems you have had or what? Are you involved in a dispute with them? Have you been wronged somehow? Have you had success in dealing with them?
I have been an enthusiastic Lexus "supporter" since purchasing my first one, a new 1992 LS400. Company currently owns that original 92, a 95 LS, a 2001 AWD RX300, and an 03 Prius.
That being said my personal "nature" is to be, act, as a fixer. I truly LOVE solving problems.
So while I was not mentioned you may also notice that my own posts are mostly in the realm of resonse to user complaints. I have no doubt that Scoti1 has inadvertently fallen into the same category.
as your main focus?
Sorry, but I thought I made that clear. I own a Toyota.
In fairness to Wwest, he may not own nor have experienced one of the affected vehicles, however, based on his response to Montie's questions, he apparently owns a fleet of Toyota products--hence (IMO) that certainly qualifies him to say anything he wants about them.
That amount of exposure to Toyota products also speaks to his knowledge of the products, which appears to be quite extensive.
I am confident that West's motives in problem solving are sincere, especially when applied to the "Great Hesitation Debate" we have indulged ourselves in over the past months.
I sincerely hope Wwest continues to be a satisfied Toyota "Supporter."
In considering one other response to Montie's questions, the intentional deflection of those questions raises major doubts as to what motive might be at play there.
Be that as it may, there really is no "right" or "wrong" within this hesitation debate. Essentially, it's just a debate, nothing more, nothing less.
As User777 says, paraphrased: "frankly, no one can state factually what may (or may not) lie at the bottom of the issue, nor can anyone state factually just how extensive the issue may (or may not) be."
Needless to say it's been an interesting time.
Let's hope those who feel they have problems somehow manage to garner some satisfaction before too long.
Regarding the input from Montie--I see from the profile that He's an Aussie here on a visit. I will be visiting his country fairly soon and hope he finds his stay here in NA as pleasant as I do during visits there.
Re Post 854 from Hyliner--A totally appropriate answer, and the solution is clear. I agree.
Finally, to all my fellow debaters--(both pro, con, and our illustrious Host)--Best Wishes for a Happy and Prosperous New Year!!
Questioning "motives" and getting personal is what got the Engine Hesitation forum closed. I see a similar trend occuring here now (the only forum open that addresses this hesitation issue) by the same players and I am not going to go there. This is the last time I will talk about things of a personal nature here and I would respectfully request that others also not respond to posts that are off-topic and personal, no matter how sincere they may appear. In the future, I hope the moderators can address this directly with the individual instigator(s) rather than closing down forums.
Billran, motives or not, as long as they don't get personal or do the flaming thing, any comment, idea, or opinion is fair ball.
If there's an issue to discuss, let's just discuss it, OK?
Now, back to the subject of this forum......
I HAVE applied the most recent TSB, and my car is actually worse than ever. I accept that the TSB appears to have worked for some - but it has not worked for all. And Lexus should address that, in my opinion.
I cannot even explain to you how BADLY my car drives. And I would love to get rid of it - and I'm even emotionally prepared to take the $3k hit, because I HATE THIS CAR SO BAD!!! But, fundamentally, I just feel that Lexus should stand up and support their product. I am not driving this car in any unusual manner beyond how a car was designed to be driven. Even if my so called driving habits' are different than others (which I don't necessarily believe), that is NO EXCUSE for a car that drives like this.
This is the ninth car I have personally owned, and last year alone I rented over 30 cars - I have NEVER NEVER experienced this kind of behavior from ANY car before. And THAT should mean something.
I would just be happy, and have asked that the dealer or manufacturer buy my car back for what I owe, which is also approximately what they could resell it for (they SHOULD even be able to make a profit on that amount!). But, they are not interested.
Thus, I am in the process of filing a lawsuit under the Deceptive Trade Practices Act (DTPA). My attorney has advised me that it is in my best interest FOR THE LAWSUIT to keep the car until the suit is resolved. This too is very unfortunate, that I have to be subjected to continuing to drive such a piece of JUNK - just to get some type of remedy (which isn't even guaranteed). Not to mention, that I had to forego all of the great December new car deals!!!
Anyway, I appreciate having this forum as a way to vent - but I would appreciate any constructive ideas on how to remedy this problem, rather than the back-and-forth bantering that some are doing here.
This is a REAL problem, being experienced by REAL people. If you disagree - then please go read another forum and allow us that are experiencing the problem to share our experiences.
Thank you.
I will try the other website you suggested.
As for arbitration (I assume you mean the lemon law?) - my attorney and I have discussed this, but based on the posts on this forum, it doesn't look like many people have had very good luck. There was even a post from someone in my own state - Texas - who didn't have any luck. So, we chose the DTPA route for now. I am still considering the Lemon Law though, and may end up trying that route as well.
Thanks again for your insights - and I welcome any other ideas people may have.
Can you help me to find all these complaints at your NHTSA website? I would like to look through them but cannot seem to find the right way to see them all. I could only find about 6 at Lexus and 3 at Toyota. Thanks.
for a long time, there have been several of us "regulars" that have wished we were given access to some objective data like this to review and discuss what may be *REALLY* going on.
you'd have to be somewhat computer savvy, be willing to spend some money on the OBD-II interface and software, be familiar with, or know someone familiar with automotive / transmission controls lingo to know what to capture, and patient performing the capture.
here are the links to the web-site which i found by googling: (btw: i am not endorsing the product nor do i know if it will perform the necessary task with any specific vehicle):
http://www.obd-2.com/
and specifically, with respect to the toyota-specfic parameters it can collect:
http://www.obd-2.com/toypida.htm
personally, i'd like to apologize for what probably contributed to the actions which the host felt necessary to take making the other forum Read-Only.
this is the best constructive contribution i could make to you. i wish you the best.
So this topic will remain for ES 300 owners specifically who wish to share information and solutions, and the NEW topic would be for anyone interested in the technical characteristics of the problem itself.
Lexus/Toyota Transaxle Shift Delay
I believe that is all that are there.
In general, the codification of issues, and the search methodology leave much to be desired.
Here's the approximate "click stream" I used in case someone wishes to replicate my results:
1). http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/complaintsearch.cfm
2). Vehicle | Search Selected Type
3). Year | 2002 (Submit Year)
4). Make: Lexus (Submit make)
5). Model: ES300 (Go)
6). Type: Passenger Type (Submit Make / Model)
7). Component: (there are three related ones to search)
Power Train
Power Train AT
Power Train (PCM / TCM)
I'll be monitoring the new forum established for this issue should someone fail to be able to replicate the results I obtained from the web-site.
Regards.
Make : LEXUS Model : ES300 Year : 2002
Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA, INC.
Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0
ODI ID Number : 10093211 Number of Deaths: 0
Date of Failure: May 11, 2004
VIN : JTHBF30G825...
Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL:ACCELERATOR PEDAL
Summary:
2002 LEXUS ES300 WITH ABOUT 18,000 MILES HAS A PROBLEM WITH HESITATION WHEN ACCELERATING AFTER SLOWING DOWN, ESPECIALLY AFTER COMPLETING A TURN. IT IS LIKE THE TRANSMISSION DOESN'T ADJUST WITH THE PRESSING OF THE GAS PEDAL. ALMOST HAD AN ACCIDENT BECAUSE OF THE HESITATION. ALSO I HAVE HAD PROBLEMS WITH THE CAR DOWN SHIFTING AS I COME DOWN A HILL. ALSO A PROBLEM WITH THE CAR TRYING TO DECIDE WHAT GEAR TO BE IN WHEN GOING AROUND 20 TO 25 MILES PER HOUR. YOU CAN FEEL THE CAR CHANGE GEAR. PASSENGERS EVEN HAVE ASKED WHAT WAS THAT? COMPLAINED TO DEALERSHIP, AND WAS TOLD IT WAS THE WAY I DRIVE. I HAD THE SB-TC004-03 PERFORMED AFTER RECEIVING THE LETTER FROM LEXUS, BUT IT DIDN'T HELP. MAY HAVE MADE IT WORSE. *AK
--
Make : LEXUS Model : ES300 Year : 2002
Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA, INC.
Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0
ODI ID Number : 764271 Number of Deaths: 0
Date of Failure:
VIN : JTHBF30G425...
Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL
Summary:
WE HAVE A SURGE OR SKIP ON DEACCELERATION.THIS WILL HAPPEN FROM 40 TO 60 MPH. THE DEALER WILL ONLY TELL US THEY ARE AWARE OF THE PROBLEM BUT HAVE NO CURE. I FEEL THAT AFTER 7 MONTHS THEY SHOULD HAVE A FIX.*AK
Dang -- taking a little longer than 7 months!
actually, i don't think any representative from the agency has made the determination that it isn't a safety concern and issued a report to that effect.
they are providing a mechanism for end users to make reports and to use that information to contact the manufacturer for specific maintenance records, VINs affected, other particulars, determine if the manufacturer is making good faith efforts to address the concerns, assess trends, etc.
some people with the hesitation have stated they feel it is a safety concern.
in part we got into trouble in the hesitation forum when we broached the issue of safety. maybe that should be shelved since it evokes tangential postings moving away from the topic which might be helpful for the people with the problem.
just like my (non-expert, human-factors centered) opinion and those of others without the particular make of vehicles, someone may choose to take the reports of the people actually experiencing the hesitation with their cars (and reporting that there is some impact on their safety) and believe it, or not.
safety is in part objective, and in part subjective. we can be confident by the range of reports that the behaviors probably range in severity, frequency, repeatibility, etc, but the extents to which this are true are unknown.
this fact would tend to complicate anyone's binary classification and labeling: (safe vs. unsafe).
if tomorrow the NHTSA were to issue a report that said, there is a safety issue with these systems, what would that mean, and would our current opinions change?
if so why? if not why not?
if tomorrow the NHTSA were to issue a report that said, there is no safety issue with these systems, what would that mean, and would our current opinions change?
if so why? if not why not?
factually, we don't know if the NHTSA is actually putting experts in these vehicles and driving them and instrumenting them and contemplating the scenarios. we don't know the expertise of the people performing investigations of particular reports, nor to the extent to which individual reports are followed up on.
anyone making a report have a followup conversation or personal visit with an NHTSA rep or a manufacturer rep as a result of the report made to the site?
maybe shifty, we need to open a new forum dedicated to the implications of increasing automotive automation, technology, complexity, etc. maybe we could turn to wwest for another good forum name and take the safety aspects of the discussion there.
I am more inclined to believe that NHTSA has already looked into the complaints and probably have done their own instrumentaion test by now. This so called problem has been around since late 2001; if the problem was as serious as some people are claiming it to be the car would have been recalled a long time ago. Face it, the chances of a recall is very remote at this point.
Even on this board, no one has reported a real accident due to the hesitation. Thus far, posters have only "felt" that the car is dangerous. And that is in light of the fact that there has been an almost steady barrage of complaints on this board for the past three years. This is one of the most active threads on the ES300 topic and has been for a long time. And no one has actually claimed that the hesitation caused an accident.
The highest number of hesitation complaints I've heard is 30, and the lowest is 6 so I suspicion the actual is somewhere in between. Not a lot since 2003 if that's real.
I went right trough this here forum to get a handle on how many actual complaints there was. Looks like around 25 or 30 at my count. About every time one comes up there is a donneybrook of talk about it which takes about 3 days to settle down!! I also found there's just as many reporting no problems as them that does. After all the looking I'm thinking this is not that big a thing now.
one would have to believe the vast majority of vehicle owners (regardless of make or model) don't post to Edmunds and don't even know the NHTSA site exists.
all along a number of posters have indicated the population size of people with a problem is unknown.