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Good, Bad or Ugly - Current and Future styling trends of BMW

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Comments

  • vsaxenavsaxena Member Posts: 211
    I like the new 7 Series Styling. The falling sales numbers could just have been indication of a poor economy for this range of cars along with the I-Drive. I do not think it was the styling only which caused the problem. I guess once the economy picks up the 7 series will start doing better.

    I can not like the new 5 series styling. The lines are all screwed up and the angled lights just do not do justice to the car. The only color I have found it tolerable is black. I guess once you can not see the lines of the car it becomes less discomforting. Even there the lights stand out. This car lacks harmony. It does not convey a feeling of balance. Contrast that with the looks of the new Acura or the MBs and the choice becomes a no brainer.
  • tlcmantlcman Member Posts: 220
    The X3 was a mistake, on road handling stinks and the lack of a low transfer case and absolutely no underbody armor makes this car an absolute flop... As for Europe.... the price of gas in the EU is astronomical, when I was there 2 weeks ago it was the equivalent to 5-6 U.S. dollars for a litre..... in other words you dont see many SUV's if any in the EU. Any light front wheel or even rear wheel drive car can travel throughout the EU and even to the mountains.... I believe I saw a total of 20 or so SUV's during my stay, and even in Germany, they are just to uneconomical...
  • bavarianbavarian Member Posts: 63
    I think you mean $5-6$ U.S. per GALLON, not per litre.

    Norris
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    seems like audi and MB choose to remain on track, e.g stick to the old concept rather than radically change like bmw.
    audi's MMI is one example that the i-drive's concept is actually useful and it can work, that is when its applied in the right way. i-drive will need quite some things to fix to make customers accept it.
    throw in MMI instead of i-drive in bmws and sales will rise :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't know about those pics.....they're heading down the Bangle road with BMW's most prized car. All European cars are going to be puffy looking up front due to the new pedestrian safety standards. The new 3-Series and MB's 2006 S-Class will be the first to conform to these rules, meaning bigger hoods with taller front ends.....a designer's nightmare.

    M
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    and its gonna have aerodinamical values equal to a box :(

    autoblogger: youre right, seems very agressive, and less banglism, amen to that :)
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I think those are unbelievably frightening. If that's the 3, even if they bring the touring here with a decent plant, it's off my list.

    Maybe they should hire Christian Koenigsegg away from his own company for some real design...
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Hi all-
    Well, I just traded in a 2003 330xi for the 2004 545, and it was certainly not an easy decision to make. I hated the new 5 design when it came out (like many, many others here), but I have to admit that it has grown on me. I'm sure that's largely due to the fact that I own one, but it's also due to the fact that it's an absolute blast to drive. Don't know why some people think the interior has a cheap feel; IMHO it's just as high quality as my 330's was if not more so. Obviously the look of the interior is debatable, but I somehow doubt BMW spent less money on the materials than they did in the previous 5 (a good friend has the older body style and I don't think the interior of his feels or looks like it's made of better materials). I guess I just agree with those here that are saying that the new body style will take time to get used to, but that people WILL get used to it and probably even like it eventually. Nearly everytime a incredibly popular car gets a full re-design loyalists have a hard time with it. I'm not saying it isn't somewhat justified in this case, but I would say it's rare for loyalists to rave about a re-design of a car they love. But BMW absolutely has to stay on the cutting edge to design and technology which means they can't stay with the same body styles forever. Maybe the new 5 isn't for everyone, but it's a great car to drive, and I think I could train my black lab to use the iDrive. I'll tell you one thing though, like it or hate it, people certainly find it interesting to look at. I actually feel uncomfortable with how much people look at it sometimes!
  • vsaxenavsaxena Member Posts: 211
    Congratulations on the 5er. Once you are inside the car, I am sure the experience is worth the money. Make sure you take the scenic route to work.

    The exterior is a different story altogether.

    The problem with E60 is that it is not just the loyalists but regular 9-5 Office Folks, the 9-8 Silicon Valley nerds, most car mags, and most consumer mag who find the design discomforting. Two colleagues of mine refused to consider the E60 after looking at the redesign; they did not even want to go the dealer to take a test drive.

    A new model after 7 years should have prompted a large number of sales as the pent-up demand was released. The improving economy should have helped (the bonuses were pretty good last year). However, the E60 has not sold well.

    A new design will typically grow on people once they get used to it. However, there is something fundamentally screwed up with the design of this car which puts people off. For me it is the slanty lights which look completely out of place with the overall body style.

    The new 7 series also raised question marks. However it has gradually grown on people, since it did not lack harmony in the design; just newness and iDrive.

    However, E60 draws strong negative vibes, not just neutral vibes. There is so much that the Roundel/Props/Driving Experience can do to diffuse the visceral repulsion the E60's body style triggers. It will require retuning of most people's sense of harmony and balance to get used to.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I guess I have to disagree, to some degree. Firstly, loyalists to a particular car design can have any occupation. What I mean is people (like myself) that loved the old 5 design. I remember lots more than just neutral reaction to the 7 as well. In fact, I don't know anyone that liked it all when it was first released. As far as harmony and balance go, they are completely subjective. Again, I didn't like the design at all when I first saw and for a good while after it, and it did grow on me. To tell you the truth, everyone I've shown it to thinks it's a great looking car and they are surprised that they feel that way. Maybe it's seeing the car up close and from different angles that matters. I also don't think the reviews from car mags were that bad at all even about the looks. Here's Car and Driver's: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=8011. Most seem to say that the syling might not be to a particular individual's taste, but that's about it. Isn't retuning people's sense of balance and harmony what a car company should try to do if it chooses to lead the way rather than to follow the pack anyway?
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Sorry, forgot one thing. The sales figures for the new 5 aren't bad. In fact, if I'm reading the chart in the attached article correctly it looks like they've sold more 545's this year than 540's last year:

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/06/02/198203.html
  • vsaxenavsaxena Member Posts: 211
    I do agree that likes and dislikes are very subjective. However there is almost a universal consensus that this car is went a bit too far.

    I am not a person with strong dislikes; I pretty much find something good in anything. However, I have tried my best to get to like the styling of the E60. Whenever I see an E60 on the road I hover around it; whenever I see one around the parking lot I circle around it. The car simply lacks harmony.

    It must be a great car to drive, especially with the new active suspension which makes the curves easier on the passengers. However, the exterior styling just not cut it.

    Car and Driver, self-acknowledged Bimmer fanatics have to say the following about the new 5ers; You can't miss the new 5-series. (We just wish we didn't miss the old one so much.)

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=7573&page_number=1

    The sales figure for the new model year should have been out of the roof. After all it was a complete redesign after almost 7 years and coming at a time when the economy had finally turned the corner and people higher up in the ranks had a good year. 2003 model year, with the Iraq war and all was not really setting the high water mark either. On an year to date comparison, 18,568 E39s were sold last year vs 19,070 E60s this year; in May to May comparison the E39 actually outsold the E60 (4491 vs 4336). So even with weak comparisons, the car is not exactly a block-buster, barely keeping pace with the sales of a 7 year old model in an economy in the dumps.

    Also keep in mind that a lot of folks who leased their 5ers during the boom period of 2000-2001 would have been looking to upgrade the cars in this model year. There was a lot of pent up demand for people waiting for the new 5 series. Unfortunately, a lot of these buyers are looking elsewhere or are trying to get a low mileage E39 (just look at the resale values of the 2003 E39s).

    I envy you since you are driving a car with one of the best driving experiences. However, this cars styling will be a tough sell; and will remain so for in the future. I fully expect BMW to tweak the styling in the 2006 model year. I think the angled lights will be the one feature that will be strongly diminished.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    true the new 5 handles even better than the old 5, though not by much. of course im talking about the one w/o SP. dont know why but i still hate the active steering, it gives me a hard time trying to communicate with the car whenever im driving it, particularly at lower speeds.
  • karmikankarmikan Member Posts: 116
    Eloquently said vsaxena. It's a bit of an escape route to suggest that negative views of the new BMW design philosophy come from E39 owners who don't like change. The view that is shared by most media sources (C&D, MT, R&T, Autoweek, Motorweek et al) is that you need to overcome the design flaws and drive the thing to appreciate its virtues. A design should compliment, not detract from the driving/ownership experience.

    BMW tried a radical new design direction that has failed. I assume they felt the need to attempt this because the E39-type designs were so widely mimicked by a number of other manufacturers that they were looking passe. But a good design is a good design. When I look at a 3/4 rear view of the E60 just below and behind the rear window and see all of those conflicting lines and angles it's like someone scratching on a blackboard - it just grates.

    Surely a better approach would have been to have taken an evolutionary, rather than revolutionary approach, much in the way that Aston Martin, MB, Jaguar etc have taken. Aspects of all of these brands are widely copied yet they stick with a fundamental design philosophy that retains a strong sense of continuity.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    One thing I disagree with is that you said that the design route BMW has taken has failed. What are you basing that on? The dislike some people have for the cars? As the chart that I posted indicates, though sales have not been through the roof, they were ahead of the old 5 year-to-date in May. One additional thing I wanted to point out to vsaxena is that to expect a huge jump in sales in a down economy (I also disagree with the suggestion that the economy is doing better; in fact the market is flat at best) when you're talking about a car that costs over $60K. Only about 5% of the population can even afford one (if that) so it's not like we're talking about the release of a new Honda Accord for $25K here. I realize that the old 5 out sold the new one for May, but the really relevent numbers from a sales perspective are year end. In fact vsaxena read tha chart wrong. The number where the old 5 out sold the new one for May was the overall 5 sales (525, 530, 545 and station wagons). The new 530 and 545 both out sold the old 5 (1783 vs 1773 for the 530 and 909 vs 518 for the 545 vs 540). Also keep in mind that the station wagon is not released yet so the old 5's overall figures include that. Bottom line is that year-to-date as of May the new 5 had out sold the old one 18,996 to 16,894 for the 525, 530, and 545 (vs. 540). So as of May this year they had sold 2,102 more of the new 5's than the old body style last year. At the price of these cars calling that a failure makes no business sense. And we don't even have the figures for summer sales which I'd bet are even higher for the new 5. Once you include the year end sales this year I'd bet the new 5 will have sold at quite a bit more than last year's model. So though I agree that some people don't love them, that's not being reflected in sales at all.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Just for simplicity's sake here's an interesting way to look at this from a sales prespective. The 2,102 more new 5 series cars they sold probably represents about an $105,050,000.00 (I used and average price of $50,000) increase in gross sales over 2003 5's. And that's only as of May! I realize that isn't real accounting, but it certainly shows that BMW isn't crying about the new designs. Think about that for the entire year. I bet they'll end up selling about 5000 more new 5's this year than last. Using the $50,000 average price that I used above that's an increase in sales of $250M for 2004. Keep in mind also that January through May are probably the slowest sales months, and that they had and still have very limited stock of the new 5's (trust me, it was really hard to find the 545 I wanted). I know, get a life rather than posting all of these figures! I just think that it's important to separate personal feelings from business facts. Sure BMW would love to have everyone the owns an old 5 come back for a new one, but realistically as long as sales are meeting their projections (which none of us knows for sure) they really don't care.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Using the sales figures from the October 2004 issue of Bimmer magazine, covering YTD thru May:

    E60 525i sedan= 7081
    E39 525i sedan= 6699

    This is a small increase of only 382 units or only 5.7% increase.

    E60 530i sedan= 8124
    E39 530i sedan= 8082

    This is an even smaller increase of only 42 units or a miniscule .5% increase.

    E60 545i sedan= 3773
    E39 540i sedan= 2113

    This is a substantial 1660 unit increase or a huge 79% increase.

    The totals:

    E60 sedan= 18996
    E39 sedan= 16894

    This is an increase of 2101 units or 12.4%.

    BUT... Keep in mind that the E39 came out in CY1996 as a MY1997. So the E39 sales data from CY2003 comes at the end of its lifecycle. The E60 sales data comes at the start of its lifecycle, when it is making the biggest "splash" in the market and minds of consumers.

    Would be interesting to see the following:

    - What were BMW's internal sales projections?
    - How much did BMW spend on research and development of the E60 and what incremental increase in costs to put it into production?
    - What are the E60's marketing costs?
    - Is BMW using incentives to move E60s?
    - How much did it cost BMW per unit to produce E39 and E60? Does the E60 cost more to produce per unit?
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Looks like we're using the same chart. I agree that it would be interesting to see what BMW's projections are, but we're most likely never going to know that. One thing you forgot to mention though was that BMW was also giving great deals on the 2003 E39 at the end of it's lifecycle to move it so that probably ramped up sales of it right at the end a bit. Also, would you agree that January through May is the slowest time sales-wise for cars? I don't know about you, but that's the time that I'm least likely to buy a car. It's the beginning of the model year still, I don't want to buy a new car in the dead of winter, and you're probably least likely to get a good deal then. Most people buy cars in the spring, summer and fall. So it would be interesting to see what sales are like May through year-end. Not sure what BMW's fiscal year is though. In all, I'm not saying it's a hugely successful launch of a new design, but then I don't work in the car industry so I don't know what would qualify when you're talking about very expensive cars. What I do know is this, just about any company out there would take a 12.4% increase in sales during their slowest period in a down economy. Hardly a failure. But as you said, there are other unknown costs to consider. Who knows how much money BMW has made (or lost) really. All that I'm getting at is that people assume sales are down when in fact they are not at least as of May.
  • vsaxenavsaxena Member Posts: 211
    Rich, I did not see the chart wrong. I was comparing TOTAL E39 vs E60 numbers since the focus is on the exterior styling which is common across all the models (525, 530, 54x etc.). I feel that the total number is a good indicator of the appeal of the design. The fact that the higher end models sold better actually highlights my case about the pent-up demand.

    The higher-end cars are bought by people who are not price sensitive but more brand loyal. This may be because of the enthusiast factor or the brand image factor. These folks were waiting for the redesign and ordered it as soon as they were available. They want the "best" BMW and nothing else.

    It is marginal buyer, who is considering multiple cars who will actually determine the success of the model-line. The marginal buyer will cross-shop and also focus on price. This is the segment that which will form the bulk of the 525 and some of the 530 buyers. The drop(or flatlining) in sales here, especially of the 525, is an indication of the problem. Once the pent-up demand and the novelty of the new design wears of, the E60 will have to compete against other cars. I am not too optimistic about that.

    One may have argued that the E60 models were released in a staggered manner, and hence, the year to year comparisons are not kosher. However, the May numbers, when all the models were in general availability tend to discredit that concern.

    Finally, I think the economy is doing much better than last year's doldrums. The typical 5 series buyer is in middle management or higher (30 years +). These folks did well last year; last year's Wall Street bonuses were the best in a few years. Many folks also made a killing in the stock market last year and have more money to spend now than last year.

    reiz: I think there was a $1000 incentive around for the E60, though I am not sure.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    still looking at the sales figures, i agree that the new 5er isnt doing that well.
    most people dont usually bother to buy something thats at the end of its lifecycle, in this case the e39, they prefer to wait a year or less for a newer model, yet the sales isnt doing that great, even with better economical situations.
    to me it already proves just how well the e60 will sell.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I'd agree with that appraisal.

    I think anniversarying YTD sales from last year doesn't tell the whole story. For one thing we have departing model, and as soon as new model particulars make the scene, a current lame duck begins to slow, usually.

    Better might be to compare the OA sales boost percentage YTD for the E60 against the first-year sales boost percentage for the E39 ('98?), if such figures are available.

    I would imagine this new model is relatively flat when all is said and done. I suggest it has alienated about the same number as it has converted (retensions valuing at zero in the equation)...
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see until more sales figures are available for this year. Until then the best anyone can do is speculate on who buys what when or what indicates good or bad sales numbers. Early next year we should know for sure. All I was saying is that sales are not in fact lower given that 2101 more units had sold so far. As for the reasons for that, everyone has an opinion. As far as the car itself goes, it's one of those love it or hate it things. I certainly wouldn't try to convince anyone that hates it to buy it; in fact it really only matters that I like it to me. Vsaxena-Sorry, probably shouldn't have said you looked at the chart wrong. What I meant was that since the station wagon and M5 are not yet available the total 2003 5 sales can't be accurately compared to 2004 until you delete the station wagons and M5 from the 2003 numbers. I would also say that we won't really know whether this redesign was a success or failure until years down the road (no pun intended).
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    No two ways you are correct about the appeal.

    I'm quite certain it's an engaging and satisfying drive, and if the outside speaks to you, well, that's all she wrote!

    I lusted seriously after the '02-03 E39, and for me, this gen isn't a step forward in styling. But that's my own deal!

    I don't really think there's a mfr out ther right now with a real solid handle on styling, other, maybe, than Mazda. To some extent Aston as well, I guess.

    Everybody seems to be casting about for the next big wave to ride, and I don't see anyone who's really caught it!
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    I agree that the new e60's sales aren't impressive considering that it's a new model.

    However, in addition to the e60 style being a little strange and offputting to many potential buyers, there are 2 other factors that might have led to lower sales: 1) sales of X5, lots of people are taking an SUV over a car; and 2) increased prices on e60.

    IMO, the increase in prices is the main reason sales of e60 have declined, then the strange looks and lastly the X5 is cannibalizing some 5-series sales.

    I'm seeing more e60s on the road now and IMO, it's the strangest looking car I've ever seen. I like some of the individual design elements a lot, they're very creative and well done.

    But there's too many design elements and they don't work well together, instead they're competing for your attention. I haven't seen any other car that looks so different in different colors, and I think this is the result of too many contrasting styling elements.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    There are lots of E60s in my neck of the woods and I like the vehicle more and more. As a contrast, while I have only slightly warmed up to the G35/Nissan styling after two years, after a few months the new Bangle version of the 5 series have grown on me tremendously. Can't wait for the unveiling of the new 3-series.

    I think in the long run, once they tweak the overall design it'll be awesome.
  • vsaxenavsaxena Member Posts: 211
    There are pictures of the new 3 series (2006) on the 3 Series boards. Finally there is a Bangle car which works. It seems to have a lot more harmony than the E60. After the Z4, may be the best designed Bangle car.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The Z4 is gorgeous and the new is a car of a different ilk, but they did a great job with it.
  • karmikankarmikan Member Posts: 116
    In an idle moment, I was reading through some old auto magazines and came across an interview with Henrik Fisker, the designer of the universally admired and drop-dead-gorgeous Aston Martin DB9. Here are a couple of quotations:

    "I think the back-to-basics approach may be a function of us almost exhausting how much new technology we can pack into a car and still make it practical and usable for most consumers."

    "I've gotten a lot of inspiration by looking back at what made the human fall in love with cars. Buying a car is such an irrational and emotional behavior, that I have to figure out what it is that they love. Really, who needs a car that costs more than say $15,000? I'm trying to capture the sense of the emotion and love affair that people have with cars."

    These are two statements that seem to encapsulate much of what has been expressed here and elsewhere regarding the E60 design. BMW's current direction appears to be very much at odds with Fisker's thinking. The latest sales figures for the E60 show a steady decline which, I believe, will continue now that the early adapters have already bought. Meanwhile, there's an 18 month waiting list for the DB9 (I know that it's a limited production vehicle but it also costs $160K+ so it's all relative).

    The market is speaking, I wonder if anyone at BMW is listening.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    The market is speaking across all BMW models; not just the re-designed models. Here are July and year-to-date sales for the 3 series which has not been changed:

     3 Series
    July 04 YTD 04 July03 YTD03
    8,823 63,777 9,952 68,924

    Now, I know people will say that is because of the impending 3 redesign, but we can't prove that. X5 sales were also down. To me, the sales decline has less to do with the Bangle designs and much more to do with the overall economy and oil shortage fears. I know that there are some here who think the economy is doing better. I work in finance and I disagree. Most portfolios are flat at best and most major market indicators are down. Unemployment is still high. Gas prices are high. None of that adds up to great sales.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I agree, there honestly isn't any difference between a moderately loaded 330i and loaded G35. They are both expensive. If I were to pass on the 330i on price, I would pass on the G35 as well.

    The only thing I disagree with is the cutoff $15,000. It should be $10,000. A lot of expensive restaurants are also feeling the pinch. However people are crammed like sardines into the $6 buffet all you can eat place.
  • karmikankarmikan Member Posts: 116
    I don't work in the financial sector so I'll defer to higher authority on the "real" state of the economy. But here are few snippets gathered from various sources:

    "In the United States, demand for Mercedes-Benz brand cars rose by 1.5 percent to 17,500 vehicles in June. Year to date - Record sales of the C Class sedan (28,600 cars, up 16 percent), the E Class (27,200 cars, up five percent) and the SL Class (7,000 cars, up 22 percent) all contributed substantially to the good development on the North American market."

    "Audi is looking to sell over 238,000 cars in Germany this year and to increase its sales in the USA to 200,000 vehicles in the medium term. Sales in the USA this year though will certainly be above the previous year's level of 86,000 vehicles."

    "April - Lexus passenger cars posted strong sales of 11,573, an increase of 13.1 percent. The ES 330 luxury sedan led sales with 6,460 units, an increase of 21.9 percent. The LS 430 flagship luxury sedan posted sales of 2,706 units, up 63.8 percent, while sales of the SC 430 hardtop convertible increased 4.5 percent."

    "Nissan Motor Co.'s U.S. arm recorded its best month ever, and Toyota Motor Corp.'s American division had its best-ever July, the two automakers said Tuesday."

    Maybe the buyers of these particular brands are able to afford a new car by eating at the $6 all you can eat buffets. We can speculate that potential BMW buyers haven't discovered this technique. Once they do, sales should soar.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Nissan/Toyota also make cars far less expensive then BMW/Mercedes/Audi. For one 330i one can buy 3 Corollas. Maybe price has something to do with it, but then you'd be driving 3 Corollas. Apples to oranges.

    Last year BMW had it's best year ever. So what is really being said?
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Hmmm...here's two releases by Audi and MB that seem to contradict what you posted:

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/08/05/207584.html

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/08/03/207236.html

    So while MB sold more of some models, overall sales are down. And while Audi might be "looking" to sell more cars in the US (and that's different from any other foreign car company how?) they haven't so far this year. Don't know what explains the Lexus sales increases though haven't Japanese car sales traditionally outpaced German car sales in the US? Nissan isn't relevent due to the difference in car prices. I'd really love to hear some solid financial reasons behind the thinking that the economy is so much better than it was last year. And "I know some people that made a killing on the stock market this year" isn't what I'm talking about. Wow, just think, if I'd have known about that strategy of eating at $6 buffets before I bought my 545 I could have really afforded it SOOOO much more easily! Couldn't you have posted that before the release of the E60? I'm sure BMW would have loved the financial lift it would have provided to potential buyers!
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    imho id say yeah it has things to do w/ the econ, its not getting better at all, and the gas price? whew...
    its not just the beemers, its all luxury brand markets, theyre falling apart thanks to the economy. beemer sales just hurt a little more because of the designs, or is it the i-drive? im not sure
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I heard on news radio this am that car sales are up due to manufacturers incentives. In other words, people are not buying without incentives and the incentives are expected to continue into the future.
  • karmikankarmikan Member Posts: 116
    I'm not getting this at all guys. MBUSA (not globally as in your link rich545) had their best July ever.
    http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2040804.003/mercedes- /1.html

    Toyota reported its best July sales ever, up 18% from a year ago. "The industry is reaping the benefits of the highest consumer confidence ratings in two years," says Jim Press, executive vice president of Toyota Motor Sales USA. "Fuel prices are holding steady, the job market continues to improve, and the 2005 models are hitting showroom floors. These three factors bode well for a strong third quarter."

    Nissan USA recorded their best month ever in July. Yet your posts continue to attribute BMW's rapidly declining sales (and disastrous July) to the economy.

    In my original post I was trying to say that BMW used to adhere to the same values expressed by Henrick Fisker. As a result, BMWs were universally respected as true driver's cars with an understated, timeless elegance. For whatever reason, BMW has felt the need to deviate from the values that made them so admired. As expressed on this board and elsewhere, BMW's new design and technological philosophies have alienated many existing and prospective BMW owners. BMW was once the media darling and their cars perennially topped comparison tests. Now BMW appears well down the list in most comparisons and I've read driving impressions containing descriptions such as "isolated" and "uninvolving". There's no need to expand on the current BMW designs which have been so universally criticized that they're a bit of a cliche.

    IMO these are the underlying reasons for BMW's declining sales. Interesting to note that BMW's CPO sales (read E39) are up dramatically.

    Let's see - sales of high-end brands such as MB, Lexus and Infinity are soaring in the US. Sales of mid-market brands such as Toyota and Nissan have hit record levels. Attributing BMW's poor sales figures to economic factors just doesn't cut it.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually premium brands suffer in a downturn. Toyoota pumps out a lot of inexpensive vehicles, while BMW, MB, Audi pump out 0.

    According to the economic forecasts I've read, we're heading into a period of a spiralling downturn in consumer confidence. People will still buy cars, and I for one would rather buy one with an incentive than without.

    BMW is looking to get into a more well-rounded game, to succeed will take some time. I like the new cars head and shoulders above the older models.

    You can say all you want the economy is not the issue, but it's much easier to sell a $15K car than a $60K car.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    MB might have had it's best July ever, but overall YTD US sales are down 3%. I notice you didn't mention the decline in Audi sales. Is that somehow attributable to the new Bangle designs too??? And how do you account for the 3 series sales decline? That model hasn't been changed yet. I suppose you'll say that's because it's the end of the line for the old design. As far as the new 5 series offering an isolated ride I have no idea where you found that. Read this aticle:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=8011

    Or this one:

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/bmw/5series/100344931/roadtestart- icle.html?articleId=101320&tid=edmunds.e.roadtests.content...- BMW*

    Or this one:

    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2004/100665/article.htm- l

    But you know what, reading about how these cars drives is all very nice and well. I actually have one and I drove it againt the E500 and A6. I can tell you from first hand experience it is more of a "driver's car" than either. Isolating is about the last term I'd just to describe the experience. I mean, the performance numbers for the 545i are practically in line with sports cars. Have you even driven the new E60?

    I still don't understand why you think Toyoto or Nissan sales have anything to do with BMW sales. It's like comparing Seiko watch sales to Rolex sales. One (Seiko) probably averages about $100 a watch and the other (Rolex) probably averages about $3000. Which do you think sells more in the US? Someone else also mentioned that the Lexus and Infinity sales were at least partially driven by big incentives. BMW from what I saw when I bought mine, isn't offering any on the E60 yet. Bottom line though, if you'd rather drive a Lexus or Infinity rather than the new Bangled BMW's nothing I say can change that. I've driven the big Lexus sedan and I think it ride like a boat. No connection to the road whatsoever. It's as if you ride in it rather than drive it.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Opps, sorry MB US sales overall are down 2% YTD not 3% as I said in my last post (that was through May I think). Here's a link to the article:

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/08/03/207247.html

    Note the grand total line.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    According to this article in AutoWeek, Z4 sales are down 25.4 percent while roadster sales are down 21.1 percent for the first half of 2004. Because the Z4 is the newest in the segment, sales were expected to be better and "analysts" attribute much of its troubles to styling.

    http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100418

    I'm not sure what to make of styling and sales. Most cars are ugly these days so they're all on an even playing field in this area as far as I'm concerned. Last year at this time I thought MBs were ugly. Considering what's around they are starting to look good to me. I think it's a case of the girls getting prettier at closing time. This will never happen with most new BMWs save for the 6 coupe perhaps, but that kind of money gets you a new 997 911, a no-brainer IMO.

    With regard to the upcoming 3-series I think they're starting to get a clue that styling has to be reeled in. Many grossly exaggerated features particularly in the treatment of the lamps and those hideous trunk lids have disappeared. This design shows order, balanced proportions and discreet use of asymmetry. However they continue to appear hell-bent on change. Surface topography is busy— they're still crease-crazy—too much help from the spice rack. As seen here I give the 2006 3 a B minus whereas the 5, 7, Z4 and 6 convertible are scornfully stamped F in my book.

    If the 3 comes in with only iDrive for NAV as was rumored I think it may score immediate and sustained sales success. However the interior looks incredibly cheap so who knows .

    image
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Hmmm, back lights are all Infiniti I30/35 and eyebrows have been plucked, yet it's the best looking Bangelized bimmer IMO.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    " I've driven the big Lexus sedan and I think it ride like a boat. No connection to the road whatsoever. It's as if you ride in it rather than drive it. "

    darn right on that

    designman: yeah no matter what i still find the current 3er better looking. the sidelines on the new 3 start looking worse, rear end is just as ugly as ever. and bangle surely isnt the best interior designer out there at BMW.
    up until now the new 6 is the only bangle design thats truly appealing to me. i wont say its handsome, but cool, yeah id say that.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    "....I won't say its handsome, but cool...."

    A rousing endorsement of the 645i. (Its rear is a dead ringer for the old Chrysler Cirrus.)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "(Its rear is a dead ringer for the old Chrysler Cirrus.)"

    The problem is the Japanese are all copying BMW. I said to my wife the other day, look at that ugly color on that 3 series. To my surprise, it was an Avalon. I just saw a rear view. I can't believe how Toyota copied the rear end of the current E46.

    People have compared the 6 series to the Cirrus, Sebring and the like, yet when you see it in person, you know BMW struck a home-run with it. It is a gorgeous car - only a person who hates BMW cars would say it looks like a Chrysler.

    The new rumored 3 series pictures are gorgeous also. The only tweak I would make to the styling is the front-headlights. My thought is the creases are meant to give some brand identity across the 3 series line including the X3.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    "-only a person who hates BMW cars would say it looks like a Chrysler."

    Wrong! I OWN a BMW and I speak the truth about the 645i's hiney.
  • cheezhedcheezhed Member Posts: 44
    "The problem is the Japanese are all copying the BMW."

    Now tell me that you think an Avalon (post #353)looks like a 3 series more than the new 645's rear light treatment looks like the Dodge Stratus (or Chrysler Cirrus as above)?

    BTW, I too own a BMW ;o).
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "and I speak the truth about the 645i's hiney"

    Well everybody here speaks *their* own version of the truth. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    In person, no way.
  • cheezhedcheezhed Member Posts: 44
    Well, beauty's in the eye of...

    BTW, another point along the purpose of this board is that the front of the new 5's and 6's resemble Pontiacs, unfortunately. This statement also has more credence than your post (#353) about an Avalon's back lights resembling (therefore copying) the 3 series. Ridiculous, as it was to assume every critic of a BMW is a BMW hater.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If you remove the nameplates, the back of the Avalon and 3-series do resemble one another. A short time after reading the posts about how the 6 series looks like the Sebring, I happened to have seen the two of them parked near one another in a local mall. The cars just do not have any resemblence in the aggregate. Yes you can say a corner of taillight in one car is similiar to a corner of the taillight in another car, but that's where it ends.

    As far as Pontiac resembling BMW, it's Pontiac that has altered the front of it's grill not BMW. BMW has essentially had the same front-end, albiet with different thematics over the last 14 or so years.

    I never assumed all critics are haters, but I think the critics look for this stuff. In my eyes there is no mistaking a BMW for a Pontiac or a Chrysler. Others my see it differently.

    Unfortunately as good as some photographs are the medium sometimes distorts.
This discussion has been closed.