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Saab 9-2X

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Comments

  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Thanks for the update. Stay tuned for more!!!

    Here's a good comparison test:
    Swedish Wagons:
    Saab 9-2X Aero vs. Volvo V50 T5
    Saab 9-2X Linear vs. Volvo V50 2.4i
    For $30,000, I'd rather have a Saab 9-3 Linear. Yes, I'm giving up power, but I'm also getting a car that Saab got more input into designing. I'm looking forward to the second generation of the 9-2, if we get one.
  • brunnabrunna Member Posts: 53
    I love test driving, but I wanted the space of the wagon, so I'd be looking for the V50 T5, but the dealer said not until later in the summer they think. I want to drive an OB or GT Limited with the 250hp, but the dealer doesn't have them either. Pull the trigger, or wait it out. I can never make up my mind. Any thoughts on whether I need an extended warranty on the Bimmer? It has some left on factory, and a 90 day, 3K mi from the dealer (Pontiac certified, for what that's worth). My brother recommended taking it to an independent BMW mechanic and have them validate the soundness of the mechanicals. He hasn't bothered with the warranty for his 3 Bimmers and swears they are bullet proof. 128,000 on his 318iC with original clutch!!
  • ensoccer589ensoccer589 Member Posts: 26
    Not that there is anything wrong with Subaru but is there a reason why car companies today cannot build their own platforms. Yes, I am aware that it is more economical to use a platform from another car but personally that turns me off. When I see the 9-2X, I think Impreza and immediately turn away and shake my head because the resemblance is uncanny. Just thin for a moment about GM Corporation for a second... can you name 15 cars/trucks out of their gazillions that 1) are not based on platforms from other companies 2)do not share their platform with another vehicle. I'm interested to see a list....
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    can't name anything in the GM portfolio that doesn't share a platform with anything else in the GM portfolio or in the world.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The article that some here briefly spoke of, in the July issue, on the 9-2X Aero... was incredible! I highly recommend the doubters among us to read this piece as a viewpoint on how platform sharing, but effective and well-targeted differentiation, can work. C/D was resoundingly supportive of this WRX makeover, and the overall execution. Quite a compelling case.

    More interesting to me though is that the Saab 9-2X Areo in full dress, as tested came to $31,890.

    A few pages later, an auto equipped Sube OB 2.5 XT Limited with similar equipment rings in at 32,470. Subtract out the automatic, and you're at $31,270.

    So the choices are even more complex: Save money and get a WRX, spend the cash and get a WRX with added style and refinement (the Saab), or spend the money and get more utility, room, and even more refinement at the expense of "balls-out" handling and a dash of style (the Outback XT-L).

    ~alpha
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    is already getting good reviews from what I've heard. Motor Trend said in their review of the Volvo V50 "May the best Swede win" (between the V50 and 9-2X)
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Yup, Saab did a pretty great makeover of the 9-2X, though I still think the Volvo V50 will win. Why? Better stereo system, more safety features, more features total.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    the V50 is not rebadged.
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    Albeit with a far greater degree of differentiation than the 9-2X and the WRX. But, where do you draw the line between "rebadged" and "platform sharing"? If you're worried about where the bones came from the V50 and 9-2X both have econo cars in their bloodlines.

    Give the Saab a chance. There are plenty of folks who've wanted a WRX but either the looks didn't do anything for them or they wanted a little more luxury or both. The 9-2X fits that buyer perfectly and hopefully brings a few younger folks into Saab showrooms.

    Heck, if Saab hooks this thing up with one of their great subvented lease deals I'm definitely intrigued.

    Oh, and here's the last line of the R&T article:
    "And consider this: The Subaru Impreza WRX has its wonderfully potent, 300-bhp STI variant. Can a Saab 9-2X Aero Viggen be far off?"

    Would anyone be opposed to an STI wagon with a Saab badge on the front? Not me!

    -Jason
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just as the 9-2x is based on a WRX, the S40 is based on a Mazda3. You'll be hard pressed to find a unique platform at this price level.

    The S40 is more differentiated, but it's still not a unique platform.

    I drove the S40 and the T5 and I'd pick the WRX, mostly for the AWD, but also for the better balance.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Not a bad idea. When can someone order one?
  • ensoccer589ensoccer589 Member Posts: 26
    what about a nissan sentra, mitsubishi lancer, honda accord/civic, toyota celica/corolla, nissan 350Z, ford mustang..... all unique platforms
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Civic is not unique - Civic, RSX, and Element are the same platform.

    Accord and TL and I believe the TSX are the same.

    350Z shares platform with the G35 coupe and sedan.

    Celica, Corolla, Matrix.

    Sentra - not sure but I think it shares platforms with cars in Japan and Europe.

    Lancer and Outlander share.

    Do not know about the Mustang but I am sure it is not a stand alone.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Beat me to it. I don't think any of those cars are fully unique. They share at least an engine or a platform.

    9-2x is not very differentiated, though, in fact it's the same except for some cosmetics and more options available.

    -juice
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    The '78 Ford Fairmont, of course!

    ;-)

    -Jason
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the new one will finally get a new platform. Prolly derived from the Lincoln LS, right? Still solid axle in the rear, though.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I don't think there is a single car in this world that doesn't share a platform with something else. Either that or I can't think of any.
  • harlequin1971harlequin1971 Member Posts: 278
    In some ways, who cares what platform is shared with what. The end appraisal is how does the car feel, drive, handle and look...

    The Impreza is a well-sorted car that always lacked some of the glitz inside and out to satisfy Porsche and BMW owners looking to downmarket thier next rides...enter the Saab Luxury Appointment squad.

    Yep, it's an Impreza alright. Same platform, same trannies, same engines...but you get a critical more-than-once over from Saab engineers to make the fewest possible changes (cost-savings) to execute the best possible upgrade from the current Subie offering. I think you will see more collaborations between these two companies...with the next Impreza/9-2x having a deeper split personality.

    So what if Volvo S40 is built on the same platform as the new Focus. That platform is a killer in the Rally racing world and the extra ducats are spent on things we all like: luxury appointments and upgraded cogs and pieces.

    I think Saab has made a good decision to add this car to their lineup. I am dubious about the value upgrade for my personal dollars...but I think this is a great pointer to the next stage for both.

    How about a TDI Saab/Subie with AWD? GM has a few good ones in EU aleady, just waiting for us to clean up our diesel supplies (2006 rollout).

    A good platform is just a starting point...sharing will be the only way to make a car cost effective, especially with us customers demanding quick vehicle redesign cycles.
  • ensoccer589ensoccer589 Member Posts: 26
    true, saab did an awesome job making over the Subaru into a better car. But personally I feel that Subaru, by selling its platform to Saab, has lost quite a few customers since the Saab only starts $3000 north of a WRX and the performance is basically the same if not better. A lot of the cars I mentioned share platforms within the same brand or company. It isn't Saab's fault for taking the offer from Subaru but Saab will benefit much more than Subaru will...
  • richwoodrichwood Member Posts: 11
    It's been raised already, but part of the attraction for many (including me) will be the 9-2x's pricing vs. that of Subaru.

    Just outside Toronto, we're looking at waiting until July 1st to get our first kick at the 9-2x, but my local dealer did have pricing and some basic lease info

    Unfortunately in Canada, we still don't get access to the dealers true cost, but the basic listings show the Aero @ $37,735 and the Linear @ $28,950 (both in Canadian dollars). Doing the exchange math shows that we're getting a pretty good deal up here, but what's not apparent is that our Aero will automatically be suited up with the moonroof and cold-weather package + the 17" wheels for that same price - the only option being a combo of leather and xenon.

    I'm curious to know about the past Saab policies several folks have written about regarding aggressive price reduction and or lease deals. I am aiming at a lease, and the rates I'm hearing from GMAC on the Aero are 2.9% for 3 years with a 55% residual (+ another 2% if you opt for low miles and stay under 10,000 miles/year) or 3.9% for 4 years with a 49% residual, again with an option to take a low-mile package and add in 2%.

    If those numbers hold true, Subaru Canada will get whacked, as the WRX sits @ 6.8% for 4 years and so does the Forester XT. As a Forester owner I know that residuals are in the 50-52% ballpark, and quotes from local dealers seem to bear this out.

    The Linear, however, is totally submarined by Saab/GMAC, as whilst the same lease rates apply, residuals sit around 48% for 3 years and 43% for 4 years. Subaru keeps the pace around 50-52% for the Outback Sport, RS, TS, etc, so it seems to show me that Saab is much more keen on putting my butt in an Aero. What gives? How does it look to Subaru when Saab seems to only improve their car with more content, better fit & finish, nicer sheetmetal, all built by the same Fuji employees, and than BAM! They tell us Subaru overvalues an Impreza @ 4 years out, and it's actually worth close to 10% less....talk about gratitude! Saabs may devalue quickly, but this car is a Saabaru.

    With gasoline prices only heading upward, I'd consider the Linear but for this pricing diff. As it is, I'll forgoe my daily coffee and a bagel, and spend the coin on Turbo power.

    For those interested, several Euro sites, like EVO, have also started to review the 9-2x, despite not even having it available. For all those lovely little hot hatches they've had for so long, turnabout is fair play!

    And having visited a Volvo dealer today, I'm happy I've ordered my personal plates already which say "SUUB" and not "V50" - nice car, but in a different class @ nearly $7 g's more, not including tax.

    Cheers.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Subaru must benefit with this deal somehow? Maybe not. Maybe GM just threw their weight around since they own 20% of Subaru.
  • harlequin1971harlequin1971 Member Posts: 278
    my guess is that we may see more collaborations back and forth. Honestly, Subaru just stole away car of the year with their new Legacy in Japan.

    They have suddenly and dramatically improved materials quality and driving dynamic feel...that and some sexier sheetmetal.

    Could it be that some Saab folk were involved in a partnership long ago, working on that project as well? Seems anedoctal at best, but how did Subaru go from the only AWD car in town, but boring, underpowered, and not pretty - to the hottest, suddenly good looking, and ragingly powerful?

    Who knows, maybe they are working on some more twin offerings. Saab and Subaru both would benefit by offering some more models into the market. Have you seen Subaru's Concept convertible? It is sweet looking.

    Could we see a 2-seat Saab sports car around the corner?

    GM has an interest in making some serious mileage from the Pontiac Solstice R&D. Can we see a possible platform deal that brings potentially three 2-seat convertibles to the market at variety of price points?
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    says Saab and Subaru are working together on that mysterious and unknown seven seater SUV and that Saab may get a version to replace the 9-7X.
  • krzysskrzyss Member Posts: 849
    The answer is easy.
    Subaru stopped selling their high powered versions of Legacy in Japan only. They figured out that other parts of the world will buy them and Subaru will be able to sell more cars.
    Subaru did not have high performance car in US until they start selling WRX. SVX was disaster 10 years earlier but it was luxury high performance car.
    What Subaru gets from SAAB deal ?
    They build 8000 more cars without any financial risk. I suspect SAAB (GM) pays them decent money for all of them and distribution, advertising etc costs are covered by GM/SAAB too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    How did Subaru benefit?

    Well, parent company FHI gains economies of scale. It hurts dealer relations, though, becuase US dealer aren't happy, not a bit.

    In terms of product it did benefit Subaru - the nicer interior goes on the 2005 WRX as well.

    -juice
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    I have read quite a few reviews and this is with out a doubt the worst one by far. Did they drive the same car everyone else has??

    http://info.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.cfm?id=14- 993
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Lordy, I just played around on the configurator for a bit. What fun!

    Inside and out, it would get better odds of taking my money than the Subie. I've always respected the WRX, but never cared much for the overall presentation.

    Only thing that still bugs me is that C-pillar. It's that started-as-a-sedan-and-tacked-on-a-wagon-butt look that I just never can get warm with.

    Nice looking package with all the goods, otherwise.
  • harlequin1971harlequin1971 Member Posts: 278
    Well, they said alot of the things that have been raised in here before. Dubious upgrades for a big price hike.

    I also appreciated their "attention to detail" as if you can make sense of the info-graphic on the right hand side, you are definately ahead of the curve. Show me that $19k Audi A4 Avant please!

    I think they framed all that is negative to say about this car in one article, bravo for that.

    I guess, I would like to go back and read an article of theirs on the Impreza. Maybe they are just not very happy with twin car offerings. As this is certainlt one of those situations.

    My question, does anyone else here know much about the differences between Ford and Mercury cars in the 80s and 90s?

    Seems to me that a Ford Taurus and a Mercury Sable were almost identical, yet add a few luxury items and a better service department and people were willing to pay for a Mercury premium.
  • richwoodrichwood Member Posts: 11
    Well, despite all reports to the contrary, it seems we Canadians WILL get a lookee at the 9-2x prior to June 30th...I got my first boo today! It seems the dealer had some REALLY early deliveries, only of Linears though, but at least I saw the full palette of silver...the paint looks great!

    My biggest concern remains the upholstery, as the seats in Linear, with the base materials, were already showing some dirt...and I can't imagine how clean these buckets will be years down the road...it's really pushing me to the leather. I do really like the material qauality, with a more expensive canvasy type feel vs. the velour of the typical Impreza...definitely a more durable material. Just that the shading is so creamy pale that it's bound to get dirty fast - particularly when little ones are on board.

    In Canada, the leather option is $2g's, but I think there will be worthwhile savings in the long run, so it's worth the plunge. Too bad there's no cheaper 'pleather' a la mini or bmw...it would suit just fine.

    Anyone got a listing of the accessories as yet? I got no feedback from the dealer today, but I'm hopeful I can plug in an auto-dimming mirror. I figured the Subie one would do just fine, but my dealer wasn't certain the wiring would be in place, through the roofline, to allow an easy install.

    If anyone has a list, please post! Bigdaddycoats has been so resourceful so far(and thanks for that), maybe he or someone else has preliminary info...?
  • wsag26wsag26 Member Posts: 124
    The WRX is a beautiful vehicle. At first, I thought, what in the world is Saab going to do next????? But after hearing good reviews (I will have to test drive to see if it is actually worth it), I think the Saab will sell well. I've heard that the 9-2x is a great vehicle and many have been sold across the country...already.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Thanks for the compliment. Unfortunately I cannot find any listing of accessories. If I find anything I will let you know.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I haven't seen any around town, although the dealer does have a few in stock.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    For that amount of money, which would you rather buy, an optioned-out 9-2x turbo, or a Legacy 2.5 GT Limited turbo?

    I haven't driven the 9-2x, but I've driven several WRXs, and several of the new Legacy turbos. IMO, the Legacy wins hands down. There's no comparison.

    The only advantage the 9-2x has is a 1-year better warranty. On top of that, in my neck of the woods, Saab dealers are as scarce as hen's teeth, whereas Subie dealers are plentiful.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    FWIW, that review has some gross errors, like the wheelbase and length data.

    It's funny, my step-mom had a Sable and then got a Taurus wagon and she REALLY missed her Sable. Small and subtle difference but the Mercury was coincidentally a lot more reliable as well.

    -juice
  • harlequin1971harlequin1971 Member Posts: 278
    how about the older Corolla/Geo Prism debates...same basic car and yet the Prism had worse depreciation and often sold with rebates.
  • saab9xsaab9x Member Posts: 12
    //

    the 9-2x is awful! frankly, i'm disappointed
    by saab foisting this imitation subaru on the
    general public. if gm wanted saab to have an
    awd vehicle, it should have been patient for
    _saab_ to develop its own product; not "patch"
    a subaru with a saab front end.

    where are the side turn signals? why is the
    ignition in the wrong spot? why does it look
    like a subaru? why is it not built in europe?
    i'm sorry, but it's _not_ a "saab." the 9-2x
    has taken the saab "cachet" _way_ down to
    an embarassing level.

    one of the reasons i've been a saab "loyalist"
    was that saab didn't cower to being a "copy-
    cat" in it's approch to designing and building
    its products. it always prided itself on having
    a "unique voice." such is no longer the case.

    i don't see "today's saab" (or the future saab,
    with the "auto/manual" transmission "thingie",
    for that matter) as a reflection of its heritage.
    it's painful to watch this sad "metamorphosis."

    "...but i wanted a 'griffin,' not a cat with its
    tail between its legs."

    kthxbye.

    b.

    //
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Prizm had a higher price to begin with, at least in 1991 when I shopped both. So the rebates might just have evened things out.

    9-5 doesn't have the keys in the center console either, FWIW.

    9-3 uses an Opel platform and GM engine blocks, I believe.

    -juice
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Show of hands here: Who thinks an independent SAAB (automotive), without GM capital and some platform and badge engineering could ever have funded a brand new compact AWD sport wagon?

    Anyone who thinks there would still be a SAAB available in this country without GM?

    I'm as ready as the next "enthusiast" to get on GM's case for past (and potentially future) failures, but reality bites.

    I feel for old world SAAB purists to an extent in that the product is now a bit more homogenized across the boards, but in this day and age and in the future, quirky niche product (no matter how delightful) that is not expensive with a healthy net profit per item is destined to go the way of the pull-chain toilet.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    I can't see one negative thing about using the WRX for the 9-2X. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Saab makes two other cars for you.

    Wale hit it right on the head. Without the WRX, and GM, there is no way that Saab would be able to offer anything similar. AND, they may just be able to turn a profit on it, and not have to offer $6K in dealer incentives to move them out the door.

    I wish they had done more to differentiate it also, but I'd take one just the way it is now. Subaru reliability with a better warranty and more luxury features.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I agree with you too. I like Saab just the way it is now. They're different and quirky enough for me, and without GM, we wouldn't have a Saab at all.
  • harlequin1971harlequin1971 Member Posts: 278
    that's all they plan to sell for the year.

    That is like 6 per dealer, if Canada is included in that sales estimate.

    It's not as if Saab plans to outsell their 9-3, or give Honda a run for its money.

    We have a project car, an oddity. It will sell ok, it has some upsides over the Subaru it mimics.

    Will it break sales records? Nope.

    Will it push Saab in new directions and new markets? Yep.

    Will I buy one? Doubt it, for my driving, I think the Volvo S40/V50 is a better value statement.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They'll sell 8k easily. In fact if volume is that low they won't need much incentives.

    -juice
  • harlequin1971harlequin1971 Member Posts: 278
    when the person from Saab USA comes to chat with us. :)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Saab has 1300 dealers? That seems like a lot. I would have guessed closer to 500 or less.

    Acura said just 15,000 TSXs per year, yet they sold over 3000 of them just last month. If they start selling well, it will go up from 8000 pretty fast.

    regards,
    kyfdx
     

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  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    I believe Saab has about 200 or so dealers in the U.S.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Well... that would make more sense. That leaves about 40 per dealer per year at 8000 units.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Should be easy, that's less than one per week.

    I bet they double that 8k goal.

    -juice
  • harlequin1971harlequin1971 Member Posts: 278
    would include Canada as well I think.

    But it is sales for this year only, they probably want to double that for next year.

    Let's say 250 dealers in US and Canada. 8000 units. That's roughly 32 cars per dealer. That puts them on pace to sell 5-6 cars per month to hit targets. Considering the decent press and buzz the car received from the majority of venues. It should be likely for Saab to hit that number. I think they have only two dealers here in PHX. Neither of them very good. But I would bet they could still fall into 6 sales a month, especially in the Aero package. I see about 10 Impreza/WRX variants almost everyday on my drives to work, and maybe 2-4 Saabs.

    I would guess the cross over should be able to add 60 new 9-2x's to the PHX metro area.
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  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    Maybe I just notice the WRXs more, but it sure seems like the TS and Outback Sport are pretty rare. I can't imagine Saab will do any better with the 9-2X Linear.

    Autozone.com shows the following breakdown for 2002 Impreza engines
    4 Cylinders 2.5L MFI 38 %
    4 Cylinders 2.0L SFI DOHC TURBO 62 %

    That's exclusive of the Outback Sports, so it would include the 2.5RS, 2.5TS, WRX sedan, and WRX wagon. Does anyone know what Saab is planning for the Linear/Aero mix?

    -Jason
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