BMW 1-Series

blueguydotcom · June 2007

The wheel wells look more aggressive in many of the pics. This is the best looking, for me, of the flame-surfaced cars (at least in print).

Too bad it's only a coupe.

ivan_99 · June 2007

I'm wondering if the 1 series is worth it. Not cost wise, but its existence.

A 335i coupe weighs in at 3571
We're guesstimating that the 135 will weigh in at 3350 or so (130 hatch is 3245)

So it saves about 200lbs...

What if it comes in at 3400lbs...3450...

Originally when the 1 series was coming out I was excited and though...sub 2800...then time went by and I thought sub 3000...then sub 3200...now its sub 3400.

I do like smaller lighter cars so it probably would be worth it for me...but when I think of all the effort that goes into developing a new model...just think it should have been more (or less..lbs that is). May have been easier just to develop a track model of the 335 and cut 200lbs.

I guess to be fair a MazdaSpeed 3 is 3153.

The V6 TT is 3218...and the 2.0T is 2965.

I guess the 2.0 TT (ok Cayman...but $'s) would be my ideal...but wrong wheels and way down on power compared to the 135.

nyccarguy · June 2007

3200-3300 lbs seems about right blueguy.

As for pricing, maybe we'll be pleasantly suprised (I've become waaaaaaaaaaaay more optimistic since my son was born 9 months ago). The engines are straight carryovers from the BMW line, I'm sure the suspension & chassis have been adapted from the E90 3 series. BMW's only significant investment in the 1 series is the sheetmetal. Maybe a base 128i (before destination) starts at
$23,800.

What I say doesn't matter anyway. I'm not going to have one of these sitting in my driveway (I've actually got to get a driveway first) for a few years anyway. My '01 Prelude is still sharp as ever at 5+ years & 83,000+ miles on the odometer. We're quickly outgrowing my wife's '00 Protege ES which is also starting to make some funky noises at just over 7 years old & 87,000+ miles.

A 128i would make a great 2nd car to the Z4 M Coupe that I'm going to win at Octoberfest

nippononly · June 2007

and 2800 pounds. Now that would get me to at least LOOK at the car, regardless of the lack of a nice little 4-cylinder or diesel! ;-)

stevecebu · June 2007

I quoted probable prices on the other forum and now I just read the 1 series will have I-Drive as standard. If so, that's really going to boost up the price! :sick:

qbrozen · June 2007

I-drive standard? i don't buy it. it doesn't make sense. especially with all the complaints that surround it.

fedlawman · June 2007

I would like to trade i-drive for a dipstick...

stevecebu · June 2007

I-drive standard? i don't buy it. it doesn't make sense. especially with all the complaints that surround it.

I agree it doesn't make sense as an option but I did read it in one of the articles I was reading. I hope they are wrong. I really don't have that info myself. But that was what I read. If I find the article again I will post a link to it.

As far as the dipstick goes, I think it should be mandatory to have one in all cars regardless of make or model.

fedlawman · June 2007

Informative articles with good photos:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070628/FREE/70627003/1528/newsletter01

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070628/FREE/70627007/1530/FREE

blueguydotcom · June 2007

If iDrive were standard, BMW would see an already cheap-to-produce item get reduced even more by the economies of scale. It's go from a $300 manufacturer's cost device to probably about $200 if they put it in multiple cars as standard. Like way overpriced navi systems, there's not much to idrive.

stevecebu · June 2007

The Controller featured in the optional iDrive control system is integrated to the center console,

According to Autoweek I was incorrect or rather the article I read was incorrect. iDrive is optional. However with all the M stuff they are adding to the 135i that will certainly boost the price up quite a lot!

So I'm hoping my figures for MSRP will hold but it's unlikely since they are making it into a baby M, most of the tricks and toys but not all. That will equal a bigger price point. It's possible with the Sport M kit that it could reach into the mid 30's.

kyfdx · June 2007

..that has more time and interest than me, should look up base prices for the 320i and the 120i hatch that are currently on sale in the U.K...

I know the prices are nuts over there.. but, that might give you a good idea of how the 128i coupe might be priced against the 328i coupe..

fedlawman · June 2007

You read my mind...I did this yesterday.

I went to the BMW UK website and priced a 330i M Sport Saloon (32,340) and 130i M Sport 3-door (26,385).

Based on this very rough logic, the 1 series could cost about 81.6% of the 3-series. So, if the 335i sedan starts at $38,900, the 135i might start at $31,750. Add $775 destination, and we might be looking at $32,500.

blueguydotcom · July 2007

However with all the M stuff they are adding to the 135i that will certainly boost the price up quite a lot!

rofl Do you know what M-stuff is? It's parts with an M-badge. The 3 series commonly has different airdams, spoilers, etc from the low end model (325 in the e46) to the high end (330 in the e46). Do you remember the black lower body panels on the e36? Or the X3? Those were the base models and then higher end got the paint stuff - sort of like toyota/honda still do on low end DX/VE cars.

So I'm hoping my figures for MSRP will hold but it's unlikely since they are making it into a baby M, most of the tricks and toys but not all. That will equal a bigger price point. It's possible with the Sport M kit that it could reach into the mid 30's.

There's nothing remotely M about the 135i. An M uses an M motor (non-turbo), M suspension, LSD, etc. Airdams, rocker panels and spoilers do not make a BMW an M-car. Not by a longshot.

stevecebu · July 2007

I went to the BMW UK website and priced a 330i M Sport Saloon (32,340) and 130i M Sport 3-door (26,385).

This is probably irrelevant but I went to the Philippines website and since I live here for another year and have driven the 4 banger hatch. The prices listed are as follows

1 SERIES PRICE
116i EDITION P 1.595M
118i EXECUTIVE 1.890
120i EXECUTIVE 1.995
120i SPORT 2.070

3 SERIES
316i P 1.795M
318iM SPORT 2.950
325i EXECUTIVE 3.5
325i M SPORT 3.6

The Philippine Peso is currently 46 to the dollar. So the 120i Sport will set you back $45,000 US!!!

Oh and I believe these are made here in the Philippines and there is no bargaining on the price at all!

Look at how much a 3 series costs!

So the UK prices are probably closer but it's a tough one to predict but with the M-Sport package the 135i could probably hit $35K

drfill · July 2007

It should dilute sales from the 3-series. Maybe add that in the middle of the cycle.

Personally, I'd have a 190-200hp four, or the 230HP six, then refer people up to the 3-series from there.

Loaded, no more than $35k. Base prices of $25,995 and $29,995.

Should sell 40k a year.

DrFill

louiswei · July 2007

Well, I see at least 80% of the 1-series buyers opt for the 128i anyway. So I wouldn't be surprised to see BMW loads up the 135i and makes it into a baby M1. Sort of like a semi-halo car to showcase what BMW can do with a small, RWD coupe.

kyfdx · July 2007

Once you get the percentages... you then have to compare/convert pricing on the 135i to the 335i coupe, not the sedan...

We are only getting the coupe and convertible..

fedlawman · July 2007

In the UK, the 330i M Sport Coupe costs 2000 pounds more than the Saloon. That's about $4000 US - twice the difference between the two cars in US Dollars. Looked fishy to me, so I used 3-series sedan pricing.

Using the UK 3301 M Sport Coupe price (34,230 pounds), I come up with a 77% difference. $40,800 USD for the 335i Coupe makes the 135i come in at $31,400. Plus $775 destination, and the 135i MSRP might be $32,200.

Basically the same.

quattroporte12 · July 2007

The 135i is the car im interested in. i mean come on, who is going to complain about that engine. period. its sweeeet. I dont konw about the pricing but i can tell you that uk and us pricing definatley dont match up because when i was trying to price my audi q7 a year back, before they had released pricing for US, i built one on the uk website and it came out to about 80,000 dollars. however i bought it for 55,000 dollars, so everything is more expensive in the uk. i expect the us proces to be similar to the a3, mabie a little less since its only a coupe. like, 27,000 for the 128i and then 5,000-6,000 more for the 135i, since thats the premium for a 335i over a 328i. and i dont think this would steal sales from the 3-series, because it has very different styling (which is not the best, but not bad...) and it looks like the backseat is a little small. Does anyone know what the size will be of the backseat, similar to a mini? or the old 3-series coupe?

drfill · July 2007

The 135 should be a beast, if you take 250 lbs off of a 335i that already does 0-60 in 4.8 (consistently).

Is 4.2 seconds that unrealistic? :surprise:

Looks like EvoX has some serious competition! :shades:

DrFill

fedlawman · July 2007

The Chevy Corvette has 400hp and weighs 500 lbs less than the 335i - it does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds.

The 135i might be a smidge faster than the 3 series in a straight line (maybe .1 sec) - probably not detectable on the street. It's in the twisties where the 1 will leave the 3 behind (and be a lot more fun to drive).

jb_shin · July 2007

Provided that the car is balanced well. In the latest Car&Driver magazine, various cars were tested at VIR. Some of the entries included Z4 M Coupe, 335i, RS4, Corvette, etc. Corvette had by far the best time, but the surprise was 335i bested both RS4 and the M Coupe.

dustinst22 · July 2007

"The Chevy Corvette has 400hp and weighs 500 lbs less than the 335i - it does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds.

The 135i might be a smidge faster than the 3 series in a straight line (maybe .1 sec) - probably not detectable on the street. It's in the twisties where the 1 will leave the 3 behind (and be a lot more fun to drive)."

I don't know, the 135i appears it will weigh in around 3400 lbs (the base vette weighs in at 3200). This is 400 lbs lighter than the 335i. I would expect to see 0-60 times at least .30 faster in the 135i than the 335i. That is significant. Keep in mind, the stats that BMW posts for 0-60 is extremely conservative.

Guys are already getting 350+ HP to the TIRES on the 335i (this is well over 400 HP to the flywheel) with a simple chip modification. I think the 135i may very well be able to match the corvette (not the Z06 obviously) with a simple chip.

ateixeira · July 2007

I wouldn't count on getting 400hp reliably from that engine. It has an open deck block. It's only a matter of time before they start to grenade.

Check out photos of the actual block, no closed deck. Tuning it is very risky...

Found a pic:

circlew · July 2007

ateixeira, agreed. Tuning is risky at best and a crap shoot for these engines. The lighter weight block/Components/both will blow apart with too much stress. If the block is designed for 300-325 BHP then, adding the 25-50 HP is insanity. Forget the A/T also. These are far from racing blocks which are designed for the added stress.

To do it right, modify the entire engine!! Rather, go for an M an be done with it.

Regards,
OW

dustinst22 · July 2007

Guys, you're nuts. The old M3 engine (which this engine is based on) was lighter and less strong than this engine is. They changed the composition of the metal to make it heavier/more dense (mostly the magnesium composition) to make this engine much STRONGER.

Guys have been running 700-900 HP on modified M3's for a long [non-permissible content removed] time with nil nilch nada problemas. This engine can easily handle 400 HP. And if you're really that concerned, change the pistons (not necessary).

This engine is already DEtuned as is. It can definitely handle more power, and BMW knows this which is part of the lure of this engine.

ateixeira · July 2007

I'm talking about the block itself, not the pistons.

The post above implied you could get 350-400hp from a simple chip, and my point is it's never quite that simple.

To make 400hp that block should be reinforced with a closed deck. There are companies that do just that.

dustinst22 · July 2007

Again, the M3 (which is a less strong block than this engine) has been modified for years without changing the pistons with zero problems, and I'm talking about way more power than 400 HP. BMW built this engine to handle more power than they detuned it to. The only reason it was detuned was so that it doesn't out perform the new M3.

ateixeira · July 2007

You're making a lot of assumptions about the new block.

How exactly was the M3 engine less strong? At the physical level, I mean.

Did BMW say they built this engine for more power? Source?

How do you know BMW de-tuned it? Again, source?

dustinst22 · July 2007

It's been posted many times that this engine is based on the old M3 engine. I'll try to find the exact link. I believe it was posted several times on this forum: I'll have to look for it after work -- sorry, I don't remember every link to every article I've read

http://www.e90post.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2019900

blueguydotcom · July 2007

That's the first I've heard that the engine is based on the 3.2 from the M3. Shrug. Been reading about the 3.0TT for a few years and I don't remember seeing that...

dustinst22 · July 2007

The engine block of the N54B30 is from the older generation BMW M54B30 engine. And, the S54B32 (from the old M3) was also built off the M54 engine.

dhanley · July 2007

"I would expect to see 0-60 times at least .30 faster in the 135i than the 335i."

Problem is, after a certian point, you can't compute 0-60 times based on power/weight because wheelspin becomes more and more of an issue.

When all is said and done, the 'vette's got wider tires and a lower center of gravity.

dhanley · July 2007

I don't think there's much relation between the old m3 engine and the 3.0TT. There would be no point. One's high-revving NA, the other's TT. One's iron, one's magnesium, the valvetrains and induction are totally different, etc.

In any case, it is *extremely* unlikely the block will be the early limiting factor in increasing horsepower. The turbos, the cooling system, fuel injectors, fuel pump, all that is likely to need to be upgraded first.

It seems quite possible that with a chip and some minor mods, we will see a 335i producing 400hp at the crank. But don't bet the farm on it either...

ateixeira · July 2007

They make enough changes to cooling passages for emissions purposes that we can't assume the blocks are the same.

For instance, Subaru EJ25 block is used on their regular 2.5l 175hp engines, but for the STI it is reinforced with a semi-closed deck block.

Yet it's still an EJ25.

Engine codes don't tell us enough.

dustinst22 · July 2007

"Problem is, after a certian point, you can't compute 0-60 times based on power/weight because wheelspin becomes more and more of an issue.

When all is said and done, the 'vette's got wider tires and a lower center of gravity."

The 335i is running 4.3 0-60 times with a mod. If I'm not mistaken, the vette runs about the same. And this is the 335i. Take off some pounds (the 135i) and now you have an interesting comparison.

Keep in mind that this engine has greater torque at lower RPM's than the vette engine to help it get out of the gate quicker. That's the benefit of a turbo.

I honestly think with a few mods, the 135i could at least match the vette if not slightly beat it in the 0-60 race.

blueguydotcom · July 2007

Will it outhandle a Vette? Now that would be interesting. Anybody can mod a turbo car to go really fast in a straight line. In the right hands will the 135 chew up a track/corners?

drfill · July 2007

If the 135i didn't shave 200 lbs off the 335i (3542lbs).

How about a limited slip? Or a "Launch mode" for the VSC?

DrFill

dhanley · July 2007

I can't find your 335i 0-60 claim in google. Is it using hot drag racing slicks?

dustinst22 · July 2007

Doubt you'll find it on google. I follow a lot of forums where people mod their cars, but hard to go back and find the exact threads. They were getting over 350 HP to the tires with this car. That's well over 400 HP at the flywheel. Hell, Car and Driver was claiming they got 4.8 in the 0-60 time on this car stock. And no, racing slicks were not used. They found your mother's head perfect for the traction needed

dustinst22 · July 2007

"Will it outhandle a Vette? Now that would be interesting. Anybody can mod a turbo car to go really fast in a straight line. In the right hands will the 135 chew up a track/corners?"

I think so! The Vette actually doesn't handle that well (by European standards). Just check out the Top Gear review of the vette.

dustinst22 · July 2007

Well, only link I could find was the Vishnu mod which got the 0-60 time in 4.6. I know I've read with this same mod people were able to get that down to 4.3 but alas I can't find the link now.

However, 4.6? Thats awesome! Take off some poundage and introduce the 135i and I think we'll see 4.3 times.

This was tested by our very own Edmunds!

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=119485

"During our test, the Vishnu 335i had 11,000 miles on the odometer, an indication of the substantial test mileage it had racked up in only about two months of development time. Vishnu currently has about 30 beta versions of the system in the hands of customers. Full production versions are available now for about $1,300.

Outright speed hasn't been the primary goal with the Vishnu 335i and it also isn't the primary accomplishment. The 0.3-second improvement in quarter-mile time over the stock 335i isn't as impressive as the torque-rich driving experience. It's hard to argue with almost 400 lb-ft of torque at the wheels for less than the cost of a decent set of wheels."

dustinst22 · July 2007

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=678

dustinst22 · July 2007

Shiv (owner of Vishnu) says the track conditions were horrible (heavy dust cover on the track) when Edmunds did the testing. With stickier tires and a clean track, it would be interesting to see what kind of numbers they get.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=682091

Per Vishnu's product page, 4.3 is attainable:
http://www.vishnutuning.com/bmw_1_v380.htm

drfill · July 2007

The 135i only shaves 100 lbs! What's that all about?

All it can do is hurt 328i sales. They shouldn't offer the 3L if they can't get the weight down. Al, you're making is a $10k cheaper 335i. Watering-down the engine. For what?

I don't follow the logic here. :confuse:

DrFill

dustinst22 · July 2007

Yeah I was upset about that too -- only around 140 lb difference.

But still, its lighter, faster, costs less, better styling in my opinion (more sporty). Still a make sense purchase to me. Might not be a good move for BMW, but I'm happy about it!

I believe that's the weight with a passenger, cargo, and fuel.

I think the reason they're offering this car is for the BMW purists who are pissed off at how bulky the BMWs have gotten. Take a look at the 335, looks like a freakin Honda Accord -- way too bulky.

dhanley · July 2007

Take it easy, man, and please leave my parents out of it. We're all here because we're interested in the car.

I'm still hoping for the hatch, myself.

dustinst22 · July 2007

Yeah the hatch would be sweet.

But the coupe is growing on me. Only thing I still don't like are the curved lines on the lower doors -- makes it look a little goofy. Other than that, I'm pleased with the design. Much more sporty and agile looking than the 335 because of the longer front hood and short back (classic sport coupe design). I just don't like the look of the 335 which has a Buick like look (or honda accord).

drfill · July 2007

But the front and rear end still stink. The rear end is puckered worse than the 335, and the headlights are way too big!

Inside Line tested the 335i and weighted it at 3541, about 100lbs more than the 135i.

DrFill

BMW 1-Series

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