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Acura MDX 2007

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Comments

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yep. Its not the engine, its the way Acura has geared the vehicle. First couple of gears are relatively tall, so the effect of 300 HP will be felt more in speed than in thrust.

    Now if Acura chose to go to a shorter gearing with a wide spread (in other words, a 6-speed automatic), the engine will show its true character.

    Speaking of RL, many dismiss it as lacking performance, but it isn't a slow car! Compared to V8s, sure.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Speaking of RL, many dismiss it as lacking performance, but it isn't a slow car! Compared to V8s, sure."

    Compared to the TL 6-speed as well. The dealer keeps giving me one when I take my TL in for service thinking I'll "trade-up". If I do, it will be to a 550i.

    On the MDX, in addition to the gearing, I believe it's relatively slow feel also has to do with the nature of Honda VTEC engines producing their power high in the rev range.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    But the TL is about as quick as 550i, both with 6MT. RL isn't offered with 6MT, so comparison is between apples and bananas.

    0-60 in upper 6 seconds is quick for a midsize luxury sedan with AWD.
  • manmountainmanmountain Member Posts: 44
    Just got a call from our local dealer. Apparently, Acura Canada has rethought it's decision about interior color choices and the parchment will be available on build runs from next January on. Well, duh!
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    Your dealer gives you a RL for a service loaner!? Either the RL is selling even slower than we all thought, or the dealer is your brother-in-law. :surprise:
  • guyfrguyfr Member Posts: 55
    Great news, Thanks.

    Now if they could lower the interest rate on the lease...
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    and made it smaller.... ;)
  • x5killerx5killer Member Posts: 368
    test drove the MDX but they didn't have one with navigation so i can see how that works especially now that it is no longer touchscreen. It was nice, but i wasn't super impressed or anything

    It didn't feel or drive any better then my Subaru B9 Tribeca and i have touchscreen NAV in that.

    it doesn't have certain things my B9 does like puddle lights but will have some stuff my B9 doesn't.

    i think my wife is getting an 06 TL now instead of 07 because she can get a much better deal obviously, so i dont think its going to work out to help me get a better deal on MDX if we get both at once from same dealer. i mean i'm sure it will a little, but shes already getting below invoice i think and MDX is still too new. if i can get invoice i'd do it but might not happen so i'll wait. better time to buy would be in summer when noones getting suv and when the 08 comes out, the 07's will be discounted. its just never a smart time to buy when its first year model or first year of redesign when it just came out.

    they're going to try to get you to pay top dollar and then 6mo later you will see ppl getting same vehicle for much less and kick yourself for being impatient. only reason i'm considering it , is depending on how good of a deal they can do on two vehicles but like i said i dont think its going to puch the 06 tl price any lower then we can already get without getting the 07 mdx. if we can get below invoice on the tl as we already are and then invoice on the mdx as part of 2 vehicle deal then maybe, but even then i'm not totally sure and plus theres a good chance no dealer offers that.

    anyway, they might improve/change some things for the 08 mdx they always do the second year of a new model or redesign
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "But the TL is about as quick as 550i, both with 6MT."

    Don't I wish. ;) The 550i 6-speed is about as quick from 60-120 as the TL 6-speed is from 0-60. They aren't in the same state, let alone zip code or neighborhood. In the real world, a friend's 193 hp RWD 328cic 5-speed will match my FWD TL 6-speed unless I perfectly modulate the clutch letout to avoid wheel hop and spin. The 360hp/360 ft lb 550i would crush the TL towing a boat.

    Regarding the MDX and RL, both are quickness hampered by the fact that the power is high in the rev band and, compared to say BMW, Mercedes, and even (gasp) Lexus, the automatic transmissions of Acura are a (very) weak link in their overall performance. Way too much slush in that slushbox. At least that's my opinion based upon our 2005 MDX and my drives of other Acura automatics.

    Bodble: No brother in law at the dealership. I had expressed passing interest in the RL and it happens that the GM has an RL executive demo that has been available my last two times in for service. But they are not selling well, as everyone knows.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Damn, that 550i/6MT is slow zipping thru neighborhoods going 60-120 mph. ;)

    Regarding the MDX and RL, both are quickness hampered by the fact that the power is high in the rev band and, compared to say BMW, Mercedes, and even (gasp) Lexus, the automatic transmissions of Acura are a (very) weak link in their overall performance.

    Two things addressed here. One the engine, the other transmission. I will say that Acura's choice to go with relatively tall gearing doesn't help make a case for all those strong horses coming from its V6 engines. It is a problem with RL, and I predicted the same couple of months ago with MDX that people won't "feel" power eventhough it is there.

    Your conclusion on engine's powerband, however, is wrong. Compare MDX's 300 HP @ 6200 rpm to X5's 260 HP @ (I'm assuming, 6200 rpm). Peak torque? It gets worse for BMW. 225 lb-ft at peak just doesn't compare to MDX's 275 lb-ft. In fact, the Acura V6 likely produces more than 225 lb-ft just off idle. Don't even think about comparing what happens from 1500 rpm onwards.

    MDX's V6 guarantees more power than X5's Inline-6 at *any* engine speed. Now only if Acura would implement a six speed to go with its fantastic engines, will the powerplants in vehicles like RL and MDX get the deserved appreciation.

    BTW, even 2005 MDX was delivering more torque at lower rpm than any of its BMW, Mercedes or Lexus competition, much less in the mid-range or higher rpm.
  • low_ball_88low_ball_88 Member Posts: 171
    Specs on:

    07 MDX - 300HP/6000; 275lb-ft/5000
    07 X5 (3.0) - 260HP/6600; 225lb-ft/2750

    I guess the torque has more to do with the actual acceleration than the horsepower. Rarely on normal driving conditions that a person would have to rev the RPM up to 5000 or 6000. So if you could get maximum torque on lower rpm, you would get the sensation that the vehicle has more pick-up and go.

    As for the MDX, you would only get max HP and torque when revving at higher RPM so you really do not get the power on normal driving conditions, typically at 2500-3000 RPM. That is why it feels sluggish.

    X5 has the Drive Sport, "DS" mode that will keep the RPM up higher. Therefore, acceleration and power is maintained.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Like I said earlier, Acura V6 gets way more than 225 lb-ft well before the tach reaches 2000 rpm. Even the old V6 was doing that and delivered 95% of its peak torque from 2500 rpm to 5500 rpm. If thats where you do most of your driving, Acura V6 delivers better than BMW Inline-6.

    Now, MDX could use shorter gearing. THAT is the problem. Acura went for more speed in each gear than thrust for all that horsepower. And people feel thrust more than speed.
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    Remember, Honda/Acura use very short axle ratios and relatively tall gear ratios. So, when you multiply the axle x gear ratio, you'll get a product close to the competitors ratios. MDX: 2.70 1st gear x 4.53 axle = 12.23:1 final drive in 1st gear. Toyota 6 spd auto: 3.30 1st with a 3.69 axle = 12.17:1 final drive in 1st.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    True. Overall drive ratio in each gear is what matters. BMW and others using 6AT are quite aggressive about those. Here is an example:
    BMW AT first gear overall drive ratio (4.17 * 3.64): 15.17
    Acura AT first gear overall drive ratio (2.70 * 4.53): 12.23

    BMW has 24% shorter gearing than Acura (in first gear). That is a huge difference. I can only wish at this point to see Acura being as aggressive. If it is, then that V6 is going to feel like a true V8 in terms of thrust.
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    Yup. That's how BMW manages to make a porky X5 with a tiny 3.0L engine feel somewhat energetic (albeit at the expense of fuel consumption). Since the Acura has the largest displacement V-6 in the class, I think it would've been wise for them to capitalize on the cubic inches and tune the engine for more torque and less horsepower. I understand the cachet of saying "we have a 300 hp V-6" in terms of marketing however in practice, more torque equals more smiles in vehicles with such mass. Also, perhaps a more modern iVTEC (with actual variable cam timing as opposed to just two profiles) is in order.

    I'm sure BMW is preparing that bi-turbo 3.0L for the X5 as soon as they can ramp up production.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    But MDX's V6 has already got the torque! The older MDX was delivering 95% of its peak torque from about 2300 rpm, so if the new MDX is delivering, not 95 but 90% of its peak torque at that engine speed, we're talking almost 250 lb-ft under 2500 rpm (which happens to be peak torque at 4800 rpm in Lexus RX350).

    Again, for the heft and to utilize the power, MDX (and RL) will benefit immensely from a new 6AT that would provide a nice gearing span while allowing for short low gears. For some reason, Acura has taken a slow route to adding a cog. I hope it is for a good reason not just because they are content with the 5AT.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    It seems like you have detailed knowledge of the torque curves for the MDX and some of its competitors. I won't dispute the figures you are quoting.

    BUT, getting back to a previous suggestion that German "horses" are bigger than Japanese ones, I have to say the actual acceleration of our 2005 MDX is pretty UNimpressive for what its claimed power ratings are. There certainly does not seem to be the "90% of peak torque" at 2,300 rpm.

    We didn't buy the MDX to take it to the track. And we are reasonably satisfied with it's fuel efficiency and overall performance. But when Honda/Acura had to restate virtually all of their horsepower ratings on every model downwards in 2005, it gives me little confidence in ANY numbers they publish. According to another Edmunds forum, the new BMW 335i, rated at 300hp/300 ft lbs, has been dyno'd to show MORE than that level of power "at the wheels". Someone joked that it would be advertised as a 400hp/400 ft lb engine by Acura. Unfortunately that's not probably as much of a joke as intended.

    If you are looking for performance, it's important to test drive cars using your own buttmeter. There are different standards of ethics when it comes to manufacturer's claims.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You may be correct in suggesting that standards of ethics may vary with manufacturers. We have seen that with Honda being one of the first automakers choosing to re-rate its engine to follow new standards when it wasn’t required, even though it played against a marketing strategy. Many had opted to stay out until… you guessed it right. Where was BMW? Was the company too scared to lose a few horses? Or was it scared that its stronger horses might show up and mess up its marketing strategy?

    And unless I am missing it, you’re disputing my numbers. But then, they aren’t really mine! They are official. You may choose to not believe official words like “Broad and flat torque curve with 95-percent of peak output available from 2500 to 5500 rpm” which comes from Honda’s website for 2006 MDX when the V6 was rated 250 lb-ft @ 3500 rpm to 5000 rpm. But that would be your opinion. And opinions don’t count as facts.

    You haven’t gotten my point on the discussion about gearing yet. MDX engine has more power and torque than BMW that you think. It was true in 2005, and it is true now. Prove it otherwise. Butt-meter doesn’t count as it is affected, in this case, only by gearing.

    As for the stronger horses argument , it is something I have been laughing about for 5 years after getting into one of the first arguments with somebody after C&D had a comparison test between CL-S and 330Ci. People ignored 150 lb weight difference, launch difficulties with a front driver in a drag run, and suggested that 230 HP 330Ci had stronger horses since it beat 260 HP CL-S. Well, sure it did in 0-60 run (5.8s versus 5.9s). BUT, why did those stronger horses ran out of breath in quarter mile, and better yet, in rolling start acceleration (6.5s for 330Ci and 6.2s for CL-S)?

    10-15% shorter gearing in 2007 MDX will make a huge difference. Again, engine has plenty of oomph, its just that Acura gave it a docile gear ratio.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    There have been several Honda and Acura products which have also dyno'd well above the claims of the manufacturer. Even well above the old pre SAE changes.

    Of course, the results will vary depending on whether you use a chassis or a hub-style dyno. I've seen the phenomenon play out with both.

    As far as the MDX is concerned, Robertsmx is right about the torque curve. Something like 95% was available from below 2,500 rpms. In fact, the old spec sheets read "245 lbs-ft @ 3000-5000 rpm" They didn't list a single rpm point because it was flat for 2K revs.

    However, as the MDX gained HP in 2003 and again in 2004 (pre SAE changes), the torque peak rose a bit to 3,500-5,000 rpms. A shift of 500 rpms isn't going to change the character of the engine radically, but, in the interest of accuracy, that's what they published.

    When the SAE changes were made, the total output changed slightly, but the HP and TQ peaks did not.

    So, if the engine's torque curve is so formidable, why doesn't it feel like it'll jump off the line? I've got three possible answers for that.

    1. The throttle tip in is not very aggressive. Probably to save fuel during the EPA city cycle. However, if you push the go pedal all the way, tires will bark and trees will blur.
    2. As mentioned above, gearing. Probably for the same reason as above.
    3. DBW. Which, I suppose, is related to #1. The drive by wire system employed by Acura in all cars but the NSX seems to have a nasty bit of lag in it.

    The DBW doesn't bother me ordinarily, but when I switch back to my wife's 2001 TL (mechanical pedal), I can feel it. With my normal, conservative driving style, the TL actually feels more spirited. However, if I get on MDX with a heavy foot, the 3.5L makes its torque advantage known.

    Anyway, I expect the 2007 MDX will be more of the same - for best results, press the pedal with authority. I don't consider it a bad thing. When I look at how poor the fuel economy is for the BMWs, I'll accept the compromise.
  • gene00gene00 Member Posts: 115
    Drove an 07 MDX followed by a used 06 MDX, the 06 felt noticibly quicker off the line. Can't account for that since the specs say the curb weight is only 68 lbs more in the 07.
  • low_ball_88low_ball_88 Member Posts: 171
    That is what habitat1 was referring to as "buttmeter". It is the same reason why you "feel" the 06 is quicker off the line. In this instance, X5 "feels" quicker, abate the numbers.

    That is what most if not all people judge a car by, "feel".
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I didn't intend to turn this into a BMW vs. Acura horsepower debate, but you are being a bit pig headed in some of your statements to make your point. Remember, I own 2 Acuras now, still claim my former S2000 as one of the best cars to ever come out of Japan and have never owned a BMW. But I'm not so insecure as to not call Acura to the carpet when they should be. Call it "tough love".

    We have seen that with Honda being one of the first automakers choosing to re-rate its engine to follow new standards when it wasn’t required, even though it played against a marketing strategy.... Where was BMW?

    Excuse me? Acura/Honda didn't do ANYTHING by charitable choice. Their engines had been rated overly aggressivly and, under the new standards, HAD to be downgraded. BMW used more conservative standards all along and didn't have to downgrade a single engine rating. As a matter of fact, even the Big Three only had a few engines that didn't meet their published ratings under the new standards. Spin that any way you want, but the fact is not a single other manufacturer had to make anywhere near the fleetwide horsepower revisions that Honda/Acura needed to make under the new standards. It appears to me that Acura chose the most liberal measurement method and got caught with their pants down.

    As far as the MDX performance, if the gear ratios really are killing the performance to the extent you claim, shame on Acura. I am quick to criticize the idiot engineers at Chevy that take 7 liters and 400 hp / 400 ft/lbs in the lighter weight Corvette and manage to make it slower than the heavier 911S with "only" 3.8 liters and 355 hp / 295 ft-lbs. The Porsche is so precisely geared as to hit its top speed of 182 at almost exactly redline (7,200 rpm) in 6th gear. Every gear is matched to take over from the previous gear to maximize perfromance. The Corvette can't even manage 5,000 rpm in 6th and actually hits top speed in 4th and 5th. Unfortunately, from what you are saying, Acura's engineers went to the same "stupid is as stupid does" transmission gearing class. Too bad they don't offer the MDX in a 6-speed manual. They seem to know how to do those quite well.

    Again, I'm not trying to turn this into a BMW vs. Acura debate. I just want Acura to do a bit better on the engineering front. They proved they could with the S2000 on the Honda side.
  • aussiem8aussiem8 Member Posts: 27
    Couldn't have said it better myself. No TL can compare to a 550i -- period. I also agree with the sensation one gets driving the Acura (TL, RL, MDX) that you don't feel the power of a 300HP engine. The BMW engines feel just as powerful, despite their lower HP and torque specs on paper. I'm not partial to either brand, but I've driven both and the BMWs definitely feel like they take off quicker.
  • mdxmommdxmom Member Posts: 6
    Interesting discuscussion. It helped me to understand this by looking at the Horsepower / Torque graph on the MDX brochure. I could not find it on the US site but you can download it from the Canadian site. Canadian Brochure, Horsepower graph is on page 10

    Or below for cut and past.
    www.acura.ca/assets/pdf/en/brochures/2007_MDX_Brochure_Eng.pdf
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Thanks for the link! It looks like the new V6 is delivering about 225 lb-ft at 1500 rpm, and 250 lb-ft or more from 2500 rpm and continues to do so until past low 6000 rpm mark.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    you are being a bit pig headed in some of your statements to make your point

    It will be nice if you actually elaborated on what was pig headed about my statements.

    Acura/Honda didn't do ANYTHING by charitable choice. Their engines had been rated overly aggressivly and, under the new standards, HAD to be downgraded.

    Once again, it is your opinion. Nobody HAD to follow the new standard. BMW didn't. Acura/Honda did. How do you explain that? You do know that the new SAE standards were voluntary. Don't you? No its not about charity. I brought it up because you questioned "ethics".

    As far as the MDX performance, if the gear ratios really are killing the performance to the extent you claim, shame on Acura.

    Yes indeed. Thats something I have been saying all along, and for a while. Not just on Edmunds but on other boards too. Varmint has read my posts in another board on the same topic and related to RL/MDX that I posted couple of months ago. I knew the gearing would become a "marketing issue" since a typical test driver relies more on buttmeter than an overall understanding of how things work together, and how each component plays a role in the overall effect.

    Do you think MDX's performance wouldn't be affected at all if it used 10-15% shorter gearing in the lower gears?
  • cericceric Member Posts: 1,092
    As far as I know, Honda/Acura wasn't the only manufacturer to re-state horsepowers on their vehicles. Toyota/Lexus also did that. The 4.3L V8 on GS was rated at 300hp (wow exactly, I wonder why?) and now it is 290hp. Just an example. Honda/Acura was quick to react to comply with the new SAE standard (which wasn't stated clearly anyway). No one's fault. Many other manufacturers decided to hold on to their numbers and comply with the new SAE standard with the new engines. For that I give credit to Honda/Acura for admitting "error" immediately. Now the new standard is more well-defined, hopefully, there is lttle room to fool around.

    It is also my opinion that the problem with MDX is the gear ratio. When I first test-drove the RL (#1 on waiting list), I was disappointed after the testdrive (coming from BMW 540 V8 with ONLY 282hp). The claimed 300hp (now 290hp) was not impressive. Therefore, my decision to pass it on. Acura lost a sale of RL because of the gear ratio (now I know why). It makes the vehicle seem heavy and sluggish offline, which is bad for city driving.

    Anyway, I will hold on to my Odyssey until the MDX carries a well-spreaded 6-speed tranny. And, they better start the 1st gear at 3.5+. ;)
  • guyfrguyfr Member Posts: 55
    I side with you Habitat, I road tested the 2007 MDX and a 3.6 Q7 within a day and the Q7 did feel more powerfull even though it has 20 less HP on paper. I am sure it is the torque band which does it.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Infiniti had to do the same thing. I test drove a new MDX and acceleration seemed on par with the vehicles engine, weight, gearing, and price. My butt dynometer had acceleration the same [if not a little stronger]as my wife's Infiniti FX35. You have to keep it on boil a little. I wonder if people's acceleration issue with this car is really nothing more than being a little timid about the accelerator pedal. "My dancing shoes are so nice, I don't want to rub them too hard against anything, then they won't be as pretty"
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Again, its not lack of torque (you have dynograph to look at now). It is relatively tall gearing (for the curb weight) that is affecting the feel. The reason is no different that you feeling less thrust in taller gears compared to lower eventhough engine's torque or power output isn't changing.
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    Here's the problem: Acura needs a new tranny, period. As robert has stated, a vehicle that heavy cannot feel powerful with ratios chosen for economy. They need a short 1st-3rd and a tall 5th-6th in order to keep the same EPA figures and I still find it hard to believe that Acura is squeezing 275 lbs-ft out of 3.7l without direct injection. I understand that it has a high compression ratio but still... Toyota only gets 277 lbs-ft (SAE certified) out of their 3.5L with direct AND port injection, variable plenum as well as fully variable valve timing on all four cams. I realize VTEC has two lift profiles however it still seems optimistic. In their defense, Acura cars do seem to be pretty fast so perhaps they just need more experience with porker SUVs.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "Excuse me? Acura/Honda didn't do ANYTHING by charitable choice. Their engines had been rated overly aggressivly and, under the new standards, HAD to be downgraded."

    Technically, that's not correct.

    The new SAE standards require that any NEW engines be rated using the new rules. Existing and old engines were grandfathered under the implementation of the regs. Most all other manufacturers elected not to retest their engines until they receive significant upgrades. Honda and Toyota chose to retest all their engines. That was voluntary.

    Having said that, I agree that they were messing with things prior to the rule changes.
  • cec33cec33 Member Posts: 2
    Interesting discussion on the gear ratios that could explain a lot.

    My first impression after driving the 07 was that it just seemed a little sluggish, don't get me wrong it's a sporty suv for its size, but perhaps I built it up too much after hearing all the performance claims from Acura, track tuned, etc. I got to drive the 07 pretty hard on the test drive so I had a good feel for it. Smoother than my wife's 03, although my butt dynometer certainly prefers my FX35 off the line every time.

    The 07 is a very nice vehicle and it should be sales winner just let the engine be free!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "My first impression after driving the 07 was that it just seemed a little sluggish, don't get me wrong it's a sporty suv for its size, but perhaps I built it up too much after hearing all the performance claims from Acura, track tuned, etc."

    That's exactly Acura's probelm with the RL as far as I am concerned. The initial "hype" in Acura's marketing was all performance oriented. TV spots showed an RL winding through the Bavarian Alps while the narration touted the "300" horsepower engine and world class "super handling" all whell drive. It looked like the RL was going to send BMW's 5-series back to the drawing board.

    Well, the RL may be a very nice luxury car and technology showroom for the latest and greatest do-dads from Japan, but it is NOT, in any way shape or form, a serious performance sedan. The performance is ho-hum at best. It is a grossly overweight, bulky car which might beat a RWD 5-series in a rainstorm or snowstorm, but so would an MDX. "Super" handling? Compared to what, a Buick? And it's - oops only 290 hp - engine/transmission is only good for acceleration that barely matches my marketing director's E320 CDI DIESEL (which gets nearly 40 mpg on the highway).

    Acura should stop overselling performance until they make a serious commitment to deliver it. Honda did that with the S2000, maybe Acura could borrow from some performance engineers from it's little brother.
  • dogwhistledogwhistle Member Posts: 17
    I just put a deposit down last night for a Tech/Ent, and was told the iPod link was recalled. Anybody know what the scoop is on this and when it is expected to be available again?
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    "Acura should stop overselling performance....."

    Don't they all, from Kia to Mercedes, and everything else in between?! I've never heard a car company hype its model as having "adequate performance". But it's all just advertising & marketing hype. Take it with a grain of salt. Use your own buttmeter to judge.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Acura should stop overselling performance until they make a serious commitment to deliver it.

    Your posts have been very amusing. First of all, you don't seem to understand the term "power". Buttmeter isn't the end of it, only a part. 300 HP is 300 HP, no matter how you want to look at it.

    That said, it is funny anybody would call a car that can run 0-60 in 6.3s or have a rolling start of 6.9s, and run the quarter mile in 14.8s @ 95 mph as lacking performance. Delivering it all, along with a 0.87 on the skidpad on all-seasons and suspension tuned for comfort. Yes, thats RL for you, and those are numbers from C&D.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    300 HP is 300 HP, no matter how you want to look at it.

    Except that Acura's 300 hp is 290 horspeower under the SAE standard. And their 270 hp is 258 hp. Not a huge deal, except when you consider that Acura is now marketing it's 286 hp TL-S at a healthy price premium over the previous TL 6-speed, based primarily upon an extra 28 horspower.

    Yes, thats RL for you, and those are numbers from C&D.

    That same Car and Driver officially tested a 911S at 0-60 in 4.1 seconds in November, 2004. Later they tested one that had been fully broken in at 3.9 seconds. Porsche didn't run out and change their marketing materials and still list a conservative figure of 4.6 seconds. I'm not disputing C&D's numbers for the RL, just pointing out that if you don't do well by their "reckless abandon" testing methods, heaven help you.

    I'll agree with you - "power" is not the issue. Even the single-dimension published performance figures are not worth debating. I've spent some serious seat time in an RL. If you have, and find it to be an exciting to drive sport/performance sedan - quick, nimble, good steering feedback, etc., well, very good for you. I don't. I'd pick it over an E350 4-Matic or A6 AWD for comfort, luxury and technology. But I sure as heck wouldn't pick it over a 550i for performance, or even over a "less powerful" 530i/525i. We'll just have to agree to disagree if you find the RL in the 5 series league relative to driving dynamics and overall performance.

    Again, I own a TL 6-speed and like it. Have recommended it to friends and neighbors. Even the (gasp) slushbox automatic version. Not for someone looking for a serious sport sedan, but rather a very well balanced family sedan. I have no trouble recommending the Honda S2000 over the Porsche (base) Boxster based upon performance. However, if (as with the RL) the MDX has performance limitations due to poor gearing ratios and transmission design, their engineers obviously aren't taking performance as seriously as their marketing department.
  • ebbyebby Member Posts: 23
    I have driven 5 different 07 MDX (Base, Sport, et al.)just out of curiosity to feel 300 hp in a japanese V6 SUV. One obvious conclusion I have made is that, there is no dispute the MDX has 300 hp but the gearing (apparently first 3) is too conservative to make very good use of the torque/power band. The MDX power/torque curve is actually published in the brochure and I noticed it has approx 250 lb/ft at 3000 rpm. Only an aggressive gearing can make the MDX lauch with authority, because 250 lb/ft for a 4500 lb SUV is just adequate and not great (I chose the torque at 3000 rpm because that is the max most people get to when they take off. Few people will be revving the engine to 5000 rpm all the time). The peak torque of 275 at 5000 rpm is "too far" on the band for practical driving enjoyment. Plus you need a tall 1st and 2nd gearing to get you to 5000 rpm quicker. I own a an 05 V8 4Runner that weighs same as the MDX but has 306 lb-ft at 3400 rpm. If feels much quicker than the MDX at takeoff although measured 0-60 timing is just 0.4s better than the MDX. I also own 06 M35 that weighs 500 lbs less than the MDX for approximately the same torque. My recent 07 V6 Camry is 900 lbs lighter than the MDX but very comparable in torque (248 at 4700 rpm). It feels the most athletic of all the cars in the house. Lastly our family van Odyssey 244hp/240 lb-ft is 300 lbs lighter than the MDX but feels quicker than the MDX apparently because of decent gearing that extracts the best out of the 3.5 iVTEC. But in actual fact Odyssey is 1 sec slower to 60 mph than the MDX. Two things Acura needs to do to the MDX 1) Get a V8 for a decent torque, maybe detuned for less hp to save gas or in the interim, rework the gearing that goes with the 3.7 V6. I am still trying to understand the reluctance of Honda/Acura to make a V8 engine. Kia/Hyundai may lauch their soon. The MDX handles very well for an SUV but the performance part does not have to look good on paper alone, but must be felt as well. That is the disconnection. Until Acura fixes the "buttmeter" part of the feel, MDX may be towing the same line as the RL in sales !. The only reason I dont have one in my garage right now is nothing else but the way it feels at acceleration. Acura in my opinion can do much better than this.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    "The only reason I dont have one in my garage right now is nothing else but the way it feels at acceleration."

    My God, how many cars do you need?! 4-Runner, M35, Camry, Odyssey. And you want to considering adding the MDX to the stable? :surprise: ;)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    C'mon habitat1, you could make better arguments than saying "except when you consider that Acura is now marketing it's 286 hp TL-S at a healthy price premium over the previous TL 6-speed, based primarily upon an extra 28 horspower." For a person who talks about 550i and is willing to compare acceleration credentials of RL with Porsche 911, it makes no sense to call the price differential between '06 TL/6MT and '07 TL-S/6MT "a hefty premium". Not if you know that differential is $2K and does come with more than just 28 extra horses. And I think C&D's comparison of "spoilsport sedans" said enough 530i versus RL, that I don't have to reiterate myself. For that matter, RL is simply too cushy of a cruiser to be considered an all out performance sedan. It shouldn't be. Although, it does a darn good job handling the twisties. The more you push it, the more it will play. Thats SH-AWD for you!

    But, the primary point of discussion here is, and should be, MDX which is rated 300 HP not 300 HP. Unless you decide to use two different standards for measurement of power. You do realize how power helps, don't you? It is clear that Acura hasn't made MDX a drag racer for the streets doing the quickest 0-30 mph runs. The gearing appears to be done to utilize the available power during highway acceleration.

    But, if you push it on a 0-60 run, it just might defy the reading off your buttmeter. I'm expecting the stint in low 7 seconds, reasonably quick for its purpose (its not a track or a drag racer, as far as I see it).
  • ebbyebby Member Posts: 23
    The only reason I dont have one in my garage right now is nothing else but the way it feels at acceleration."

    I collect cars for pleasure. I keep those that I love and let go of those of the others within a year or two. I am hesitant to bore you with the list of cars and SUVs I have cycled through in the last 5 years.

    Back to the MDX, if Acura rework the gearing (and may be redo the grille), I think it is a worthy and true competitor to the X5, with better reliability and pricing being additional plus.

    In my quest for the perfect car, it has been an illusion over the years trying to find the perfect SUV or car. Because it simply does not exist. Lexus sell tons of RX each year even though they are the least fun to drive. But they score high on comfort, luxury and resale value. MDX pricing undercuts X5 by several thousands but probably gives you 9/10ths the driving pleasure of the X5. May be that is just the compromise. From my 20 years of owing all sorts of cars, I have come to realize that you can't always have it all. Our complains about acceleration in the MDX is probably strange to most previous MDX owners that would see the new MDX a huge improvment over its predecessor, which truly I think it is.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    MDX is more than competitive with X5 (also considering that the new X5 with 3.0 also weighs a hefty 5000 lb). While BMW is likely to gear it much shorter, difference will show up at other speeds but, may be, "off the line".

    And I actually like the grill, and wish Acura were as passionate about exterior styling elements (especially grill) in its other cars, especially RL, RDX and to some extent TSX. Now only if Acura does what seems to win a lot of sales for BMW... competitive lease rates. Not many people "buy" cars in this price class, so lease rates define sales.
  • guyfguyf Member Posts: 456
    Agree, and the 8.1% currently offered on leases in Canada won't win me unless it goes down.
  • cericceric Member Posts: 1,092
    ebby:
    Honda/Acura has very powerful V8 used in F1. They don't use it or modify it for mass market because it is against Honda/Acura's "green image" as their CEO said in an interview. Honda is working to release a new bread of Diesel engines (likely start with new Accord) that is much cleaner than what it is today. They are also working on a V10 (why? because CEO said "no V8", the engineers have to improvise...) for the new NSX with 500hp+.
    Whether that V10 will be used for top of the line Acura (RL or MDX) is everyone's guess.
  • wmquanwmquan Member Posts: 1,817
    PBS stations have begun airing the episode. The transcript is at:

    http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2610b.shtml

    Curiously, they got significantly slower 0-60 and quarter-mile times than the 2001 (though the exit speed at the 1/4 mile test was the same). A smidge longer braking distance too.

    Obviously those are two tests under different conditions years apart. But I thought the 2007 would do better in Motor Week's test. Motor Week's 2001 0-60 time was one of the fastest published. Here's the 2001 test:

    http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2001a.shtml
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "it makes no sense to call the price differential between '06 TL/6MT and '07 TL-S/6MT "a hefty premium". Not if you know that differential is $2K and does come with more than just 28 extra horses."

    I should have been clearer.

    In May 2004, I purchased my new 2004 TL 6-speed Navi for $31,800 (not including taxes). According to Acura, I was getting a 270 hp engine. The 2007 TL-S, at MSRP, would run me $38,995 for a (really, this time) 286 hp engine. A 23% increase in price.

    In January 2005, we purchased a 2005 MDX Touring, Nav/Entertainment for $41,000 (not including taxes). According to Acura, I was getting a 265 hp engine. The 2007 MDX at MSRP would be $48,465. An 18% increase in price.

    In both cases, the 2007 vehicles are being promoted as significant increases in performance. In the case of the TL, the difference is barely measurable. It's still FWD and you can add all the horsepower you want to it and the returns in real performance will be minimal.

    In the case of the MDX, it does appear that the 2007 redesign offers better handling, a better AWD system, etc. But, at least according to Motorweek, the real performance out of the 300 hp engine in a lighter MDX only "matches" the 3.0 liter 225 hp X5.

    Let's leave it at this: I bought both of our Acura's on the basis that they were the best balance of vehicle attirbutes and price value at the time. I still feel that way. At some point in the near future, when the 2007's are selling at or near invoice, they may provide a similar price/value relationship. But certainly not at MSRP and certainly not justified by significantly better performance.

    As for the RL, I can only say that it's getting the sales it deserves (or doesn't as the case is).
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I agree on the MDX.

    My 545 lease is up in August 2008. At that time, if Acura has put in parking sensors front and rear, changed the console compartment to opening away from the driver, and the car is selling at maximum, invoice; I will take a look. (I've given up on expecting real wood.)
    With all the competition out there, and the perceived lack of prestige for the Acura name, invoice seems to be its eventual destiny.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Folks... This thing is meant to be sportee, not a true sports car. I'm reading talk about sedans, coupes, and 2-seaters here. Of course, it's not going to match up with those vehicles.

    That said, every first drive I've read commends the new MDX for being faster and more stable on the track than V6-powered X5. Only the Porsche Cayenne matched it for overall track performance. If that's not sportee, then what is?

    At the same time, the MDX rides better and offers a great deal of technology and luxury for a whole lot less money. Only a small percentage of the market wants a full-blown sports SUV. The goodness of the MDX is that it strikes a good balance between sport, utility, and luxury. Judging it solely on one of the those categories is IMO an exercise in tunnel vision.

    That balance is why the old MDX out-sold the X5 and Infiniti FX by a ratio of more than 2 to 1.
  • ebbyebby Member Posts: 23
    Interesting that Honda is working on a V10 (and not a V8). While I can understand a V10 for the NSX, I am not sure a V10 should be the next logical step-up for the current Honda/Acura V6. I love Honda/Acura engines for their turbine-like performance and linearity, but there is no substitute for cubic displacement in extracting torque and power from the internal combustion engine. The Ridgeline is an excellent truck due to its many innovations. But when it gets to the rough stuff like towing and carryng some tons of payload, it becomes obvious the Ridgeline is in dire need of a bigger engine (more torque). I have seen a couple of V6 engines churning out 300+ hp but I am yet to see one deliver 300 lb-ft (non-turbo) at a usable rpm. When you build cars and SUVs that tips the scales in the 4-5000 lb realm, you need all the torque you can muster to make them competitve in performance. And I keep seeing the trend in most automakers: they add variable timing, direct injection, et al. to get more horsepower that peaks at 6200+ rpm, but when you take a look at the torque number, you dont see a lot of gain. The torque gains speak for more displacement rather than anything else. I love to have torque, lots of it at a low rpm especially in SUVs. That's what the "buttmeter" is calibrated to read.
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