Maintenance & Repair Costs

tina1976 · May 2009

Woooowww, I kinda feel like a fool now after reading the responses from kaiwah and 55396. I really appreciate the advice. Glad I haven't closed on the deal yet. I already have a buyers order ready, but I'm gonna go back to the dealer to renegotiate before I go to my credit union. This ain't over..... by the way 55396, what do you think about the other things I was saying such as the amount they are giving me for my trade, the "fair" vs. "good" condition debate, and the dealer trying to squeeze more money from me because of the trade (see my post).

55396 · May 2009

Sometimes, loosening and retightenong in a criss cross patter. will correct pulsing ir it was caused by this. My Galant had pulsing when I got it back from the shop after rotation one time. I did this, and problem gone.

55396 · May 2009

"some cars are under-engineered, but "prone" to warpage"

I wondered why a rotor would warp. Sure, they get hot on hard braking. So what? They shouldn't warp, but they do. Why? My thought was that if one braked hard enough to get them hot, then came to a stop at a traffic light, there may be a reason why warpage could happen. You stop, and your brakes are applied to hold the car in place until the light changes. OK, so what? Well, the pads are clamped onto the rotor on one spot. The rest of the rotor is now being cooled by the prevailing breezes. But, the area under the pads cannot cool with the rest of the rotor. My thought is that this may cause warpage due to uneven cooling. I now try to stop 10 feer or so from the light, then allow the car to creep forward, exposing all of the rotor for more even cool down, rather than trapping the heat in one spot.

55396 · May 2009

"by the way 55396, what do you think about the other things I was saying such as the amount they are giving me for my trade, the "fair" vs. "good"

A dealer and his finance man have a bag of tricks that Santa Claus couldn't carry. They are experts at countering any arguments that you may have and can push and shove a customer in so many directions that they become so confused, they just sign the paper while feeling they are getting screwed. The best way to counter this is to do your homework, decide what it's worth to you. Then, you simply go in, present it to them and say "the only thing I require from you is a yes or no." If no, then walk, and see if they call you back. Request the same because if they get you talking, they will win. You can always come back.They have no way of knowing if they will ever see you again. BIG lever in your hand. If you engage, you are a novice going against people that do this every day for a living. The more they can squeeze out of you, the better the living is. Nice guy? Really wants to help me? Sure - to get your to sign at the best deal for the dealership. That's their job.

So, how do you come up with your numbers? Well' you're right here. Use Edmunds for a start. Also, try KBB, NADA etc. Call your bank. Use Consumers Reports to check reliability. Ask your local salvage yard what parts seem to be a problem. They get requests every day and know what the problem areas are for a given brand/model. Do an advanced search on Ebay and check Completed Listings only. Look for Sold items. This will show you what people are willing to pay for your vehicle. Look on Auto Trader to see the asking price range of your vehicle. Internet prices seem to be pretty close to the bone. Remember that prices at a car lot are probably inflated by 2-3 grand to allow them to deal so they can pretend that they are giving you more on your trade than it's worth. How many times have you heard 'Well, they were giving way more than my car was worth. I would be a fool not to trade.' Probably a fool if they did.

Then, decide if it would be advantageous to sell your own car as opposed to the higher sales tax you would pay without a trade. But if you do, clean it up and detail it first. It may even be worthwhile to pay to have it done. If $100 spent gets you $500 - $1000 more, it'e a pretty good return on that investment. That's what a dealer does before it hits the lot, and look at how much they jack the price. Who knows, it may look so nice that you will decide to keep it a year or so longer. Then take that extra money that you would be putting into higher car payments, interest on a loan, insurance, licenses, fees etc. into a savings account every month, and when you are ready to trade, you will have a much smaller loan and far less money thrown away in interests, not to mention that big new depreciation hit. It does take a bit of discipline though. Best way is payroll deduction into a savings account titlrd CAR. Then don't mess with it. By time you get done figuring what trading is really going to cost you, the old ride may look much better. ;-) BTW, we have noticed that the used car lots are pretty sparse. In tight times, more people may be looking for used cars as opposed to taking a big hit and going out on a limb for new when their job could go away. This could mean a premium for yours after it's detailed. Lotsa food for thought.

Some dealers may allow you to pass your car through them as a trade, then sign it over to your buyer. That would take care of that problem. Oh ya, decline on all the 'extras'. It's a profit enhancer for the dealer.

The last car we bought was a pearl white 03 Toyota Avalon for my wife. Bought it from Enterprise at less than a year old. Base model, but still nicely equipped. I explained what I did to it in the Avalon forum, but basically bought everything online to make it appear like the top of the line for less than the dealer wanted for the spoiler alone. Then my wife put chrome wheels on it, and it became Cinderella.
There are lots of ways to turn the crank. You're here, and that's a good start. Search on 55396 for details.

tina1976 · May 2009

Good stuff....thanks for your time and advice!

bolivar · May 2009

I would think a 2005 Honda Pilot in 'good' condition, with somewhat higher milage that 'average', but still reasonable milage, would be a car that most dealers would want to keep on their lot. It's a Honda. It's a small vehicle, with, I think, pretty good milage capabilities. If you don't have paint damage or panel damage or interior stains, etc, I would guess your car would just need the usual cleanup. Their statement about not wanting your car on their lot is probably BS, especially if the dealership has Honda and Accura lots.

Remember, the money in car dealerships is in the used car market. And, they usually want to make about $3,000 on their used car sales.

But, accessory packages in most cases don't add much if anything to the value of a used car. Are these thing that were added to the car at the dealership, or are they a factory option package. If not factory, they will not appear in the Blue Book, etc list of accessorys, and therefore 'have no value'. I don't know what 'trim' includes, but mudguards and wheel locks really aren't worth anything when considering the overall value of a used car.

The VIP package - this looks like a lot of 'inspections' and so forth, very limited percentage off values, and other minor services. I would bet you would have to run the car to the 'change oil' indicator came on, which in modern cars probably will be close to 7,500 miles or so - this mean you would be getting only a few changes. Overall, don't even think about this package.

They are selling you stuff, stuff with high markups - extended warranty, VIP package, etc. You never said what you are buying. But if it is a Honda, you probably will never use much of an extended warranty.

Also - if your city has a Carmax, take your Pilot there and they will make you an outright purchase offer. This will help with knowing what your car is worth. And, it might be best to sell them your old car and do a straight deal without a trade - you then know exactly what you are putting into a new car.

You also said your car is in average condition. Throw out the fast food containers, vacuum the inside and wipe stains off the windows, trim, etc, get it washed. Just doing this before you show the car will make some difference in how it is appraised.

tina1976 · May 2009

I'm glad you mentioned how much profit dealerships like to see from a used car sales because I didn't know that. That piece of info is really helpful.

The accessory package that I was talking about is for the purchase of the new car, not for the value of the trade-in. They are trying to sell this with the purchase of the new car. The trim is just the decorative pinstripes on the sides of the vehicle.

The car that I am looking to purchase is a Honda and now that it's been said, I completely agree about the extended warranty probably not getting much usage.

The Carmax idea is good too. Thanks for the advice!

imidazol97 · May 2009

The trim on the side of the vehicle can be purchased from the same kinds of people who put on the trim for the dealers. A local dealer parts counter told me who put on their striping by coming to the lot occasionally. The person had me stop by their shop they shared with a spoiler manufacturer and she put on the stripes in my choice of colors for cheap when I bought my last car in 02. Cheap. I paid cash.

tina1976 · May 2009

So that proves everybody's point that the accessory package is BS and isn't worth the $600 they try to get you for.......

imidazol97 · May 2009

I think I paid $30 or $35 for the stripes. Plus a few months later I bought a roll of the striping from her for $10 or less because I wanted to change the shape slightly. I met her at the local dealership when she was showing up there to stripe several of their cars.

Same for paint touchup folk. Same for paintless dent removal people.

Kirstie_H · May 2009

A reporter is looking to talk with a driver who brought a vehicle in for service and the shop tried to upsell them. Maybe you came in for a scheduled maintenance visit and the service advisor tried to sell you a new set of brakes or a transmission flush.
If you have a story to share, please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, May 15, 2009 with a few details and your city and state of residence.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com

Karen_S · May 2009

A reporter is looking to speak to owners that have had trouble getting their car repaired because of parts issues. If this has happened to you, please contact ctalati@edmunds.com by Thursday, May 14, 2009.

euphonium · May 2009

The innocent twenty something lady brought the car into the service bay with a minor complaint about something and while there a new service manager sold her on a big bill of maintenance proceedures and she said "Yes".

When she was presented the big bill, she advised them she didn't own the car, and was renting it from their rental department, but appreciated their fixing her minor complaint.

lhy · July 2009

I am thinking about buying a used 2004 KIA Optima LX (2.7L V-6 engine) with 56K.

Since it is approaching the 60K maintenance, I was wondering how much this will cost me?

In particular, do I need to replace the timing belt AND water pump, or can I just replace the timing belt? How much will these things costs?

And are maintenance and repair costs expensive for the 2004 Optima LX? Can most mechanics/shops work on the KIA Optima?

jeffyscott · July 2009

If you click on "Tips and Advice" near the top of the page and then click on "maintenance costs" this should allow you to determine what is required and the approximate cost.

thegipper · July 2009

I just got my 80K maintenance done on my 2003 2L Jetta in Dallas, TX and was told it was about time to get the brakes flushed and the timing belt replaced.

My questions are:
Is $110 an exorbitant price for a VW brake flush?

How does one know when to replace a timing belt?

Is $905 a lot to pay to replace:
timing belt
timing belt tensioner (arm?)
water pump
(I was told that if you are replacing the timing belt, you might as well replace all three b/c they are right there, and easy to get to once the TB is off).

I'm new to this board, so if I need to repost elsewhere, please just let me know.

Thank you in advance!
David

bolivar · July 2009

Read the Maintenance section of your owner's manual. It should give direction as to when the timing belt should be changed.

My wild guess is you will find out it's 100,000 miles and the dealer just wants to up the timing to move some money from you to him sooner.

I think I got my Honda Ridgeline brakes flushed for about $50 plus a little for fluid. And, I asked if they truly flushed the system and did not just pull fluid from the master cylinder and re-fill.

jeffyscott · July 2009

Yes, those other parts are things you may as well replace, while they are in there.

It appears that Gates recomends 60K mi for that engine, if I am reading their timing belt replacement guide correctly:

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=2256&location_id=3487

The schedule at vw.com says "check" every 40,000 miles:
http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/findschedules/en/us/

My understanding is it is very difficult to really do much checking without doing most of the labor involved in replacing it. I would not take chances, it is an interference engine if the belt breaks you are probably looking at major engine repairs or replacement. Prices vary a lot, if there is an independent VW specialist in your area you might contact them for their price. (googling "VW repair specialist texas" seems to indicate you would have some options)

thegipper · July 2009

Thanks so much for the help!

I have an independent specialist I've used before. They quoted me about 50 bucks less than the dealership, so I guess that's something. It sounds like the smart thing to go ahead and get it changed. Especially when I picked up my car from the dealer, and had a headlamp out. When it rains it pours

Thanks also for the link to Gates. That Timing Belt Replacement Guide PDF is a great resource!

ronsmith38 · August 2009

This may save on maintenance costs, but up the costs for allergy medicine.

dav4862 · October 2009

Hi Gang,
Can someone pleasse tell me why, my volkswagen dealer quoted me a price of
$1100, when the edmunds website is approximately 3 times as less. I have a 2003
passat station wagon 2.8l engine. What should be the going rate for this job.
Why such a price discrepancy.

Thanks

Mr_Shiftright · October 2009

Some repair quotes include different things---for instance, your dealer might be including a new water pump, belts, hoses, etc. You'd have to run down the list. Edmunds might not include any of those things. Also labor rates can vary considerably from place to place.

dav4862 · October 2009

Thanks for your assistance. Let me clarify myself. I am looking into preventively
changing the timing belt. Would I also need to replace the other iems you mentioned. Unfortunately the cost of raising an autistic son has my on a very strict
budget. What is your opinion on this job would cost on a 2003 passat wagon?

Regards,
David

Mr_Shiftright · October 2009

Looks like Edmunds would estimate replacement at around $400, but of course that depends on your labor rate in your area. Where I live, dealers charge $135 an hour, so that's $650 bucks just for labor (it's about 5+ hours work). If this is the 1.8T turbo engine, I'd definitely do it before the 105,000 mile limit.

mendyusa · October 2009

Was just charged $80.00 to read a code from my local dealer in Hopkins Minnesota. Save yourself the 80 bucks and go to your local auto parts store, some read codes for free, buy some wax and replacement bulbs or something to compensate them (I got a catholic guilt thing workin). They even tried to rip me off a second time for $80 by trying to charge again for reading another code during the same visit. The profit motive will kill this company mark my words... Sad

kiawah · October 2009

You can find computer readers very reasonably priced on sale at those same autoparts stores. I bought one couple years ago, IIRC was like 40 bucks or so. I don't remember the price exactly and haven't checked the latest pepboy ad's in probably a year. I was having some problem I was trying to diagnose, and figured that purchase was a no-brainer when I saw the sale brochure....given the convenience savings alone. Then you can do it whenever you want, and don't have to travel to the autoparts store!

This isn't rocket science stuff, you'd think the manufacturers would just have a diagnostic routine that you could run which would then spit out the error codes on your instrument cluster. They could probably do this for a buck, but I guess all of the lobbying from the dealers would block that.

mendyusa · October 2009

Even better.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2009

Someday. Right now, the OBD thingie is a bit wanting. When the code says "02 sensor", that doesn't mean replace your 02 sensor. But it's a start in the search for the cure.

OBD is better than nothing, but as my dear departed Dad used to say (he was a field engineer for Packard) "a diagnostic machine is only as good as the man running it".

mendyusa · October 2009

Couldn't agree more with your dad. But man getting charged $80 to read a code that just frosts my hinie.

euphonium · October 2009

Complimentary code readings could be to the dealer as free Notary Public service is to a bank.

obyone · October 2009

Your dealership's labor rate must be around $320/hr. Can't take more than 15 minutes to pull a code. That's even if they didn't know where to connect the OBDII.

jeffyscott · October 2009

I think the charge is also related to recovering the cost of the system they use for getting the codes. I'm pretty sure the dealer is not using a $40 generic code reader from autozone or wherever.

CapeCod · October 2009

Here is the code I get on my 98 Olds Silhouette...
P0220 - Throttle/Petal Position Sensor/Switch B Circuit Malfunction

I am able to research the code online....
but have no idea what the repair will be ???
Is this just a part that can be replaced? more difficult to diagnose ?
Clearly making repairs on an 11 year old van is something I want to know about BEFORE I agree to the repairs.

obyone · October 2009

You need to replace your TPS. Not hard or difficult to do. Not too sure on locating the part but between Checkers, O'Reillys and Napa, one of them should have it.

jipster · October 2009

The $80 is to find the problem (diagnostics)... which includes reading the code.

Sucks though as you pointed out. I went to Autozone to have codes read on my 99 Buick. Came back as Mass airflow problem. When I went into dealership to have it replaced they strongly suggested the "$89 disagnostics fee", saying if they just replaced the MAF sensor without the diagnostics, they couldn't guarantee that would fix the problem. Well, it did fix the problem. Also stated my fuel pump pressure was low and recommended replacing it. That was about 3 years ago and fuel pump hasn't been a problem.

e56 · December 2009

Transmission eventually failed because an earlier failure of the Valeo radiator/transmission cooler failure allowing engine coolant to enter transmission. Though this problem had been identified by Mercedes Benz in 2006 and effected cars produced in 2003 I have been unable to learn how they handled this problem when car was beyond warranty period. This has not been an inexpensive experience

Mr_Shiftright · December 2009

What/how did they "identify" this problem? I can't seem to find any record of it---do you have a TSB number?

In any event, a Technical Service Bulletin is not a recall and so after warranty it would be purely discretionary/goodwill kind of thing. Probably if there was a known issue, it would be handled on a case by case basis, which I'm sure would include assistance from the dealer, the extent of the car's mileage, the quality of the service records, and a petition from the dealer & you to the District Offices---things like that.

kelf · April 2010

For 2001 MBZ C240? Is this already posted somewhere?

paperlady3 · October 2010

I bought a 2008 Kia Optima new and have only 11,000 miles on it. My dealer service center wants me to spend $600.00 now to do what they call required maintence. Does any one know if this is really necessary or maybe what parts of the maintence is necessary? I am a widow and on a fixed income and thought when I bought the car that it was the miles that counted not the months owned. Any help would be appreciated.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2010

No, this isn't right. In your owner's manual is a list of what is to be done at say 10,000 miles. Some of this is mandatory but much of it is "optional". If you aren't sure, post a list of the services you are being asked to buy and we'll tell you what is necessary and which ones you can politely decline.

jeffyscott · October 2010

"thought when I bought the car that it was the miles that counted not the months owned."

For many things it is both, for example, oil changes schedules will usually say X months or Y miles, whichever comes first.

bolivar · October 2010

Read your owner's manual. The 'Maintenance' section.

It will indicate both miles and/or time for all maintenance.

Some items do have a time associated. Most auto manuals want the oil changed at least once a year, no matter how little miles are accumulated.

Don't do any maintenance not in the maintenance schedule.

I'm sorry, but I feel many service departments just love for people like you to appear, and recommend many unneeded services.

pat121 · October 2010

just got a 1999 mercedes C-230, how does one go about changing the oil...

Mr_Shiftright · October 2010

Well, draining the oil out of the plan should be self-explanatory, but the filter is a little out of the ordinary:

NOTE: Numbers in parentheses ( ) indicate a component or tool in the associated illustration.

Screw off screw cap (2) with socket wrench attachment 103 589 02 09 00 or equivalent and remove oil filter cartridge (4).
Replace sealing ring (3).
Insert new oil filter cartridge (4) into oil filter housing (5).
Install screw cover, use socket wrench attachment.

bolivar · October 2010

I would think one of those cheap 'strap' wrenches would work on this, unless it is really tightened down. With a rubber o-ring, I would think it would not need to be tightened down much.

isellhondas · October 2010

It seems like we are going backwards with these cartridge oil filters.

They wer common on cars from the 50's and they were usually a mess to deal with. You had to use a suction gun to suck out the remaining oil in the canister.

Chevys had them until the late 60's. They made a conversion kit that we would install so we could use spin on filters.

The ones used on Chrysler products with a hemi V-8 were just palin nasty to change and no matter how careful you were they would usually leak afterwards requiring the job to be redone.

jeffyscott · October 2010

I think the cartridge design is an improvement. As for leaking, the spin on reliance on the rubber gasket to keep oil from leaking out seems to me to be more likely to be a problem.

I've got guys who change my oil for $5-$10 more than the materials would cost me to buy, so far they have done so with no problems on our cartridge filter equipped 2007 Mazda6 and 2005 Jetta.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2010

The cartridge filter on my MINI does tend to leave a little mess.

richardson · October 2010

They make a conversion kit for the cartridge filters of the present to change back to a spin on filter.

qbrozen · October 2010

I figured this was spam at first, but I took a look at the site anyway. Nowhere could I find a standard floorjack nor air compressor.

In any case, I'd look to Harbor Freight personally. I mean, Fleet's cheapest impact gun is $96, and that's 1/2". Harbor Freight has a 3/4" for $59.99. Not to mention Harbor Freight has brick and mortar stores to avoid expensive shipping costs for such heavy items.

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