Subaru XT Turbo Forester

ballistic · December 2003

Minor drawback = Something you can live with
Major drawback = Something you can't live with

That's interesting, but not much more. These are your definitions, not mine. Just as you and I have different priorities that lead us to reach different conclusions about the XT's gearing, we also have different ways of defining 'major drawback'.

Your tone seems to be that because you and a multitude of others are perfectly content with the XT's gearing, those of us who aren't have no basis to criticize it. That doesn't fly.

If overtime's hypothesis about "Top Gear Passing" tests were true, that would mean that you have only yourself to blame since safely passing at speed is your main reason for getting the XT.

Overtime referred to various publications' top gear passing tests. Nowhere have I ever said that I bought the XT to achieve safe top gear passing. In a 5-speed vehicle, I expect to drop at least one gear when passing; I would never expect a properly geared top gear to be ideal in passing situations.

I don't get it, Frank. Nothing I've ever written was aimed at changing your opinion of the XT's gearing, yet you seem determined to either change mine or else create the impression that my evaluation has no basis. Shall we proceed with the mutual understanding that it's pefectly OK with me that you're satisfied with the XT's gearing and that it's perfectly OK with you that I'm not? Or do I have to rearrange my priorities to suit yours?

ballistic · December 2003

Smaller engines generally don't get tall gearing because they wouldn't have enough torque that they'd be responsive in overdrive, but the XT is an exception and could easily use a 6th cog. Hint Hint, Subaru.

Exactly, and this has been my point all along. The naturally-aspirated Forester's overall gearing (reflecting the compound effect of the ratio in its top gear and its final drive ratio) is generally agreed to be close to perfect in that car, with its 165BHP and 166 lbs/ft of torque at 4K RPM.

Along comes the XT with nearly 50% more dyno-verified true horsepower and torque (and with the latter peaking at lower RPM). The XT clearly is more than capable of pulling substantially taller gearing while still providing brilliant, class-leading acceleration.

johnb2251 · December 2003

But when I drive this thing home and start living with it, will I eventually find it to be too unrefined and noisy to succeed as a commuter? You folks have been living with these cars for 6 months or so now. What's the verdict?

I've had my 5-speed XT since the end of July and have put around 19,000 miles on it (long commute and two cross-country road trips). As a daily driver, it's the most comfortable commuting car I've owned. As a comparison, before the XT I commuted in a Jetta VR6, which I thought was very comfortable. I've had no mechanical problems with it. It has no rattles or other such build-quality issues. It's always delivered smooth power - but not as smooth as a good V6. For me, gearing isn't an issue. 1000 miles on the Interstate at 3500 rpm was not any less relaxed than a tall-geared V6. The shifting is smoother than the Jetta. Of course, the FXT is excellent in inclement weather. I've camped in it several times. A sheet of upholsterer's foam in the back makes for a very comfortable bed. Plenty of storage space in the optional armrest - and it's very comfortable and well positioned. Good cup holders and lots of storage space. Excellent headlights.

The negatives: Sucky stock tires. Too much body roll. Brakes aren't quite as capable as I'd like. Odd control layout (but I got used to it). Utterly useless and annoying automatic climate control system. Steering is over-boosted and somewhat vague at highway speeds. Crappy carpeting. Heated seats on "high" cycle on and off instead of maintaining a steady temp. One touch down on driver's window only, and no one touch up on any window. The auto-dimming mirror is a POS (IMHO). Checking oil level is unnecessarily difficult. Balky 5th gear synchros prevent fast shifting at high RPM (apparently an abberation of my vehicle). Cruise control sometimes cuts out intermittently above 75 mph. Wimpy horn.

njswamplands · December 2003

my wife drives the xt for her commute. she really does love it. are there short-comings? sure. but if you have to merge into 60mph traffic with 20 feet of on-ramp, slightly uphill and is often wet, for the price of an XT? nothing is even close.

plus look at those fantastic crash scores.

handles with confidence, very predictable. killer sunroof size.

plus with all that speed, look how many cases of beer you can deliver cold.

ballistic · December 2003

Ballistic, the racket you heard was the panic alram, not the security alarm

Agreed, but when did panic alarms start going off all by themselves?

Maybe my XT turned on its radio all by itself, heard that the national threat level has been raised, and became panicked.

atlgaxt · December 2003

John, what you need to keep in mind with the XT is that although I believe it handles, brakes and accelerates well, this is no boy racer and if you don't punch it to get into the turbo, you are essentially driving a regular Forester. No lowered and hardened suspension, no super low profile tires. This is a fun car but amazingly easy car to drive and park, especially in town. Visibility is great, especially with the big rear window, the dimensions are trim and the turning radius is very tight. It is comfortable and well appointed, especially if you get the leather and sunroof. Plus, I used the XT to replace a 1999 Isuzu Rodeo with 4wd, and my insurance rates actually dropped 10% with State Farm. Pretty amazing for a brand new car.

Although some complain about the noise, I think it is fine, especially if you push the roof cross rail back. I just drove a loaded Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited for a 100 miles on the open highway, and I can tell you the Subaru steers and rides much better and I believe is actually quieter - driving both on subsequent days on the highway into a strong head wind.

Sam I am - when my radio became possessed with the volume randomly changing, I was quietly motoring down a city street. I will let you all know if this occurs again.

johnb2251 · December 2003

atlgaxt, I agree it's no boy racer. It's a (small) shame that they didn't go for a front-mounted intercooler, as that would rid the car of the boy racer hood scoop. However, a thicker rear sway and better tires I'm sure would improve handling immensely. Why are tires the first thing car manufacturers skimp on to save money?

And good points - the visibility is outstanding, turning radius is tight, and it's very easy to park.

ateixeira · December 2003

I think Subaru wanted to produce some fantastic performance numbers, and may indeed relax/change the gearing in coming model years.

If EPA numbers improve, I bet a lot of people would bite.

-juice

atlgaxt · December 2003

With the auto, a lot of times if you are slowly rolling and then you punch it (like when you are turning onto a highway and there is only a yield sign) it will hang in second gear and not downshift. First couple of times this happened it slightly annoyed me, as you really have to punch it in that situation to get a downshift to first. Then I realized that it moves out fine even starting in second with the auto. This engine puts out so much low end torque that I really think in day to day driving, it would be just as fast with taller gearing.

However, if you had a taller first gear, a 4,000 rpm clutch drop and AWD would put additional strain on the drivetrain. At the same time, without a clutch drop, 0-60 in less than 6 seconds would be tough. So there may be merit to the argument that Subaru geared the XT to generate hot numbers at the test track at the cost of fuel economy.

ateixeira · December 2003

The current final drive ratio is almost like a towing gear, 1st is so low. Bet you could get that 2400 lb trailer moving no problem.

-juice

ballistic · December 2003

Ballistic...What's your opinion?...Would an XT PP succeed as a daily driver in this region? Especially coming off an Accord. For me a car has to succeed on several levels. Is the XT ONLY a performance car? I suspect not, but I'd like to hear from you folks who've lived with it.

I can't draw any direct comparisons to Accords, sorry. However, it goes without saying that one's evaluation of any new car depends greatly on how it compares to what he's accustomed to.

My XT likes/loves (not in any particular order):

1. Very compact outside dimensions and modest curb weight, especially for AWD. I much prefer smallish cars to behemoths. Tight turning circle, superbly parkable.

2. Very acceptable interior space for people and stuff, especially considering the aforementioned small size. Getting sufficient adult backseat space requires discovering the "correct" way to set the driver's seat - i.e. as high as possible, so the driver gets adequate legroom without having to slide the seat all the way back. Thus adjusted, a six-footer can be comfortable in the driver's seat while another six-footer can sit in comfort behind him. More than that you can't expect from a 99" wheelbase.

3. Near-perfect balance (for such a small, light car) between ride compliance and nimble, adept handling. Fast drivers think there's too much body roll and too little lateral grip, but I wouldn't change a thing. Well, except for high road-noise levels (see below), which will lead me to the quietest tires I can find when the Geolanders finally wear out.

4. More than enough power for any conceivable driving need. If this were my only, or primary, priority, I'd be ecstatic.

5. Truly outstanding outward visibility in every direction. The headlamps are terrific - among the best I've owned, especially after upgrading to Philips VisionPlus bulbs. The wipers (front and rear) are also commendable - every other car I've owned, I had to put on longer wipers to cover more glass. Not so the Forester. Whether XS or XT, this is an ideal car for Northwest weather.

6. While it won't win any beauty contests, the design is growing on me - and at least it does NOT have the WRX's adolescent, boy-racer styling.

My dislikes:

1. Ridiculously short gearing for such a powerful car. Way too many RPM at highway speeds. 3.70 gearing would be ideal, 3.9 would be acceptable. This contributes to:

2. Excessive fuel cost. In 4K+ miles of extremly moderate, conservative 80% freeway driving, I'm averaging only 20 MPG on high-priced premium fuel. The regular Forester does much better even if both cars are driven identically (which is usually the case with mine).

3. Ridiculously low 1st gear, followed by an awkwardly large jump going to 2nd. I dislike shifting when I've barely crossed an intersection. This thing should be able to reach at least 40MPH in 1st at the redline, instead of barely 30. Mostly, I skip 1st and just use 2nd whenever possible. I'm a diehard stick-shift guy, but in the XT, the automatic is the better choice.

3. Higher interior noise levels than I'd like, mostly road noise and driveline noise transmitted inside, plus wind and engine noise. Every time I go from fast to slow and back, I have to readjust the radio volume to compensate for widely varying noise levels.

4. Rattles. A severe one just beneath the dashtop in the passenger airbag area that drives me crazy on Portland's pebbly stud-worn surfaces, plus tinny ones from each front door, plus a new intermittent one from the instrument cluster.

5. The white-on-black instruments are attractive, but very hard to read on sunny days, especially if you're wearing sunglasses. Black-on-white would be much more functional. I also prefer red panel illumination instead of blue-green.

6. The HVAC system lacks a true bi-level mode providing heated air to the footwells and cool air to your face and upper body from the dashlevel vents. Something akin to this is supposedly possible IF you run the A/C compressor, but that's a ridiculous solution.

7. The hill holder, which is (IMO) intrusive and, on a car with a convenient handbrake, unnecessary. I've learned ways to just avoid invoking the HH.

8. A very soft, spongy brake pedal feel, although the brakes themselves seem excellent.

9. Overboosted power steering. I like lots of road feel through the wheel, and the Forester's is so heavily boosted that it's numb compared to other cars I've owned.

10. The cruise control defaults to "off" every time the engine starts, requiring you to fumble with the control switch that is awkwardly located far from the driver's sightlines, near the bottom of the dash.

11. The engine is on the coarse, unrefined side. Sometimes it idles reasonably smoothly and quietly; at other times it shakes the whole car. The engine takes on a great note at full throttle and high revs, but I rarely need to operate there.

12. The electronic throttle (or some other engine control) causes an on-off fluctuation or surge following each routine upshift, sometimes for four or five seconds. Gets in the way of driving smoothly.

13. Brain-dead product planning: It was/is preposterous for Subaru to limit the sunroof and leather to automatic buyers, although this won't bother you.

14. A few quibbles, such as having to buy the armrest extension instead of just designing a workable one in the first place; and not being able to get desirable options available on Foresters elsewhere, such as dual-range transmission, HID headlamps, headlight washers, dual folding front-seat inner armrests, self-leveling rear suspension, etc.

Bottom line, Johnny: The XT is a very good all-around daily driver that misses being spectacular due to the unfortunate gearing. Even so, it has more than enough positives for me to recommend it. Your automatic will be even better than my 5-speed because you'll have a tad taller overall gearing together with intermediate ratios that (IMO) are perfectly suited to the XT's torque characteristics.

Enjoy.

kens · December 2003

Jack,

So considering all the pros and cons of the XT you mentioned above, are you happy with your vehicle?

Ken

bluesubie · December 2003

It's easily addressed by swapping the stock sway bar for an STi swaybar for starters. Or getting the hollow 25mm front and rear swaybars from cobbtuning.com
Cobb is also currently working on struts and springs.

Man, that gearing is horrible though!! LOL Beating a dead horse???

ballistic, when are you selling it? Not a very nice way to refer to Product Planning since they receive feedback from this board. You're probably not referring directly to the department, but same thing IMO. Don't forget to thank them for the improvements that came about in '03.

-Dennis

lumbar · December 2003

A quick thanks to the original poster of the excellent question and those who've taken the time with their thoughtful responses. IMO, exactly what makes these boards so valuable--the experiences of those who have already put their $$$ on the line.

johnb2251 · December 2003

The lesson to be learned from "Ballistic" is this:

Never buy a new-model car sight unseen without knowing all the facts about it, after one short test drive. Then don't go on Internet forums and decry the manufacturer's product for your lack of purchasing discretion. Finally, don't repeat your overblown criticisms over and over in an imperious tone, resulting in fights with enthusiasts in every car forum out there.

atlgaxt · December 2003

I don't mean to be picking at you, and I know you say you like your XT overall, but did you realize that you had six points and 19 lines describing your likes and fourteen points 38 lines describing your dislikes?

The purpose of a forum is to have a diversity of opinions and I do appreciate your insight, but it does seem that you are unhappy with your car.

ateixeira · December 2003

That's tougher than it sounds, someone has to be first. Many dealers don't allow long test drives. And we're not taking into account an immediate need for a replacement vehicle; some people can't wait.

If I was in the market and the MT came with the Premium Package I'd probably have bought one myself.

Finally, having room for improvement doesn't mean it's not Best in Class.

-juice

bluesubie · December 2003

Finally, don't repeat your overblown criticisms over and over in an imperious tone, ...

I'll be the first one to criticize Subaru (of America) for their alarm system after having my WRX stolen. I stopped after about two dozen posts here on Edmunds. :-)

-Dennis

ballistic · December 2003

Dennis - ballistic, when are you selling it

Unlike most people, who freely unload cars after 3 or 4 years even if they like them a lot, merely because something else catches their eye, I buy cars to own for 10 to 12 years. If there are significant shortcomings, I live with them for a long time.

Not a very nice way to refer to Product Planning since they receive feedback from this board.

I was unaware that I had to bow and curtsy. Are you suggesting that I'm the only one who has blasted Subaru for idiotic decisions such as not offering the sunroof and leather with the 5MT in the USA, even though Canadians get them that way?

Johnb2251 - Never buy a new-model car sight unseen without knowing all the facts about it,

No one did more pre-purchase XT research than I. Several of its more important specifications were utterly unknown and unavailable (not to mention completely unpredictable) until months after those of us who bought the first arrivals did so.

...after one short test drive.

You may be unaware that Subaru initially shipped, almost exclusively, automatic XTs. For those of us who sought 5MTs in June when XTs began arriving, there were none to test. So, I spent an entire day in an XS 5-speed, plus a drive of Portland's first XT automatic. The very first 5MT to arrive in Portland was the one I ordered. While some might drive the daylights out of the specific brand-new car that they plan to buy, I am more circumspect. The shortcomings that later became evident were not possible to evaluate in the brief, low-RPM, low-throttle drive I took with the 5-speed, mainly to ensure that everything worked.

Then don't go on Internet forums and decry the manufacturer's product for your lack of purchasing discretion. Finally, don't repeat your overblown criticisms over and over in an imperious tone, resulting in fights with enthusiasts in every car forum out there.

Imperious tone? Would that be mine, or yours? Need I point out that those of you who seem to object to my posts can easily skip past them. Might I suggest you do so in the future. I was replying to a specific request for my opinions from another participant considering the purchase of an XT. According to you, I should not have provided my views because in your opinion (which I don't share) they're "overblown", and/or because I've stated them before. So the new rule here is that criticisms cannot be posted if they might be considered overblown by other participants who happen to disagree with them - and in any event can be provided only once even though newcomers may request them later?

You'll forgive me if I wait for the hosts to officially announce these new requirements.

atlgaxt - I do appreciate your insight, but it does seem that you are unhappy with your car.

It would be accurate to say that it is a very good car that falls annoyingly short of the greatness I expected, owing almost entirely to several oddball, illogical, and entirely unexpected design decisions. Ken, does that answer your question?

Finally, Juice, responding to John's barbs - That's tougher than it sounds, someone has to be first. Many dealers don't allow long test drives. And we're not taking into account an immediate need for a replacement vehicle; some people can't wait.

Correct on all points. As always.

overtime1 · December 2003

I was just curious if anyone else was thinking they might de-tune the XT for '05 - maybe down to its rated horsepower (as opposed to what has been seen on the dyno)?

De-tuning it a bit would seem logical because it will have already had most reviews/tests done so the performance numbers will be out there. And they wouldn't want the XT to impinge on the '05 Legacy/Outback sales...leaving the XT 'as-is' would result in having 3 or 4 cars all around 240-250hp (with the WRX just slightly lower). Doesn't seem ideal from Subaru's perspective.

Anyways, I'm itching to buy soon anyways and it doesn't appear that the '05 additions will outperform the '04 XT. I guess we'll know more on January 5th.

Thoughts?

overtime

overtime1 · December 2003

I for one greatly appreciate your input here. I might not agree with you on the issues you have with the MT (but then again, I haven't driven one) but I do like the fact that you bring it up. That made me pay close attention to the noise at cruising speed...something I might not have been as aware of otherwise. It sounds like potential buyers really should pay close attention to NVH at freeway speeds during their test drive. I consider that a service to the community whether they end up agreeing with you or not.

overtime

p0926 · December 2003

Your tone seems to be that because you and a multitude of others are perfectly content with the XT's gearing, those of us who aren't have no basis to criticize it. That doesn't fly.

Hey, I tried to agree with you that the XTs gearing could use some improvement. However, griping about it ad infinitum only alienates others. And that REALLY doesnt fly!

have I ever said that I bought the XT to achieve safe top gear passing. In a 5-speed vehicle, I expect to drop at least one gear when passing

Well thats very interesting since you called my suggestion to down shift when passing an inane comment Now guess whos shaking their head in amazement.

You do realize that you come across as someone who is unhappy with his XT and regrets buying it? It certainly came as no surprise to me that you listed over twice as many negatives as positives (BTW the 1st and 3rd negatives are the same) but then after all your complaining, you still recommend it? Go figure.

-Frank P.

wzeiser · December 2003

I originally came on the Subaru site to compare the Forester X and the Honda Element. Since then I have decided on a Forester, and am now trying to decide between purchasing the XT or the XS (in the MT). I have become increasingly concerned about the XT's shortcomings--most significant: (1) the gearing is annoying, both from a standstill and at highway speeds, (2) from what I gather, the gas mileage seems to be less than predicted, (3) no moonroof available, (4) cheap tires. If what I'm reading here is right, these are common concerns. I also agree with the plusses.

I know the XS comes with a moonroof and the tires are no better. But is the XS gearing better, and does it get the 22/28 as predicted?

atlgaxt · December 2003

It seems that detuning the engine would be more trouble than it would be worth. A more likely scenario would be to keep the stated HP at the current level, creating an artificial hierarchy based upon quoted power levels between models.

Considering the engine's size, even if it is producing more like an actual 240 hp, that seems to be a fairly conservative tuning considering the power output of the smaller WRX engine (or 300 hp out of the STI) and considering that Honda has been getting 200 - 240 hp out of a NA 2.0 engine.

ballistic · December 2003

The reason your downshift-to-pass comment was inane is this: You could not possibly have seriously believed that one who has been driving sticks for decades wouldn't already have thought of that, and wouldn't already have been doing it for decades. Therefore, you knew you weren't making a sincerely constructive suggestion. I don't react well to insincere remarks.

You do realize that you come across as someone who is unhappy with his XT and regrets buying it?

No one can find a single message of mine indicating that I regret buying the XT, so it would be better to stick with what I actually write, not with what you infer. What is true is that my satisfaction associated with this much-anticipated once-in-a-decade purchase is appreciably lower than I expected, mainly due to several rather odd design factors that I regard as major drawbacks - none of which was known in advance or immediately apparent. That leaves me less than entirely content. Why does that seem to be a problem for you? Evidently the so-called "enthusiasts", who are fully satisfied, think those of us who aren't should clam up. Are these forums to be exclusively for the use of cheerleaders, or are they a place for thoughtful, mutually-respectful exchange of differing viewpoints?

It certainly came as no surprise to me that you listed over twice as many negatives as positives (BTW the 1st and 3rd negatives are the same) but then after all your complaining, you still recommend it? Go figure.

So what if I listed more negatives than positives? If that reflects my evaluation of my XT, why should that concern you? I recommended it to Johnny recognizing that his particular priorities may come nearer to yours and the other enthusiasts than to mine. Why does that call for a derisive "go figure", as if I am somehow being inconstent in what I write? There were no weightings associated with my pro and con comments. Perhaps 1 or 2 pros are so compelling that the cons are more than balanced out. That does not eliminate the dislikes, any more than it makes my recommendation to Johnny somehow inexplicable.

Oh, and by the way, the 1st and 3rd negatives were not the same, although if the distinction between them escapes you, that's not my concern.

ballistic · December 2003

Your message will inspire a number of responses to the effect that "the criticisms about the gearing are overblown", and "the gas mileage is terrific for a truck/SUV/wagon with this performance", ad infinitum.

Only you can determine which set of views better fits your own unique priorities, and only then can you decide whether the XT is right for you or not.

As for the cheap tires, those who demand the utmost in handling find the stock Geolanders inadequate. I don't have any problem with how they handle, merely with how much noise they transmit to the interior.

The moonroof complaint applies only to 5MT buyers, and for them (including me), it becomes a very big issue. Why Subaru chose to sell that combination (and leather) in Canada and not here is beyond comprehension.

p0926 · December 2003

JB- "No one can find a single message of mine indicating that I regret buying the XT"

Oh Puhlease! Maybe you won't allow yourself to admit it but you surely made a mistake by buying an XT, not only with out seeing the specs, but virtually sight unseen. And now your pride is going to force you to keep it for another 10 years. Oh joy!

-Frank P.

daniell · December 2003

As a Forester owner, I check this forum and other Subaru forums on a regular basis (although I rarely post). I personally value "negative" comments at least as much as "positive" ones. Most things are not obvious in a 15 min. test drive. That's why when I make any car purchase (or any other major purchase) I look on the internet for NEGATIVES. With so many brands and models coming out every year, it helps to eliminate the ones with "issues" from the start. Let's hear both positives and negatives. I for one appreciate Ballistic's comments.

wzeiser · December 2003

Jack- I've been following the recent posts on this site, so I'm getting increasingly well-acquainted with the issues. I, too, am a die-hard manual transmission guy, so I'm definitely coming at it from that perspective, and I am very interested in hearing from others with that same bias. Your observations are helpful

p0926 · December 2003

Hey I have no problem with Jack pointing out the negatives of the XT. I guess that I just start to find them old after the first hundred posts or so. But apparently that's my problem so I'll shut-up now.

-Frank P.

njswamplands · December 2003

njswamplands · December 2003

i agree with ballistic. go down to the dealer drive them both. if the XT does not grab you in 2 seconds of stomping on the accelerator, go with the XS.

ateixeira · December 2003

I think "greatness" is a pretty high standard at this price point. The local dealer has a 5MT XT for $23.3k, for that price I'd settle for mere "superiority in its class".

I'll expect greatness from a Range Rover, no excuses at that price level.

Imagine what Subaru could do for the same $72,000? Greatness? Definitely! ;-)

But we have to compare the Forester to its peers, the closest being the Saturn Vue Redline. I think it would be more meaningful if XT shortcomings are pointed out that the Redline does *not* have, meaning it can be done at this price level.

I've only driven last year's Vue. That V6 was coarse *and* slow, the interior cheap and the seats spongy and uncomfortable. Saturn updated the interior and is buying 50,000 3.5l V6s from Honda (250hp, half way between the Pilot and MDX).

Still, they need to fix the floaty suspension, which handled poorly, and I wonder if the seats and interior are significantly improved.

I just feel that relative comparisons have more meaning. If the Saturn is quieter (doubtful), then Subaru has work to do. Efficiency is about the same, and even the auto XT is a little quicker.

I just don't see its peers putting any real pressure on yet. Oddly, the XT MT's main competitor? The XT Automatic! LOL

-juice

PS I'd love to see a couple of XT owners go drive a Vue Redline and provide feedback here

atlgaxt · December 2003

Why can't we all just get along?

Actually, if we did it would make for some pretty boring reading.

After picking at Jack for having twice as many negative points as positive points, I realized that in my response to Johnny I included no negatives about the XT, even though there are actually a couple of things that annoy me. Therefore, in my own way I provided a disservice.

If you are on this forum, obviously you are an automotive enthusiast, which means that talking about cars is near and dear to your heart. I guess we all view things in different contexts and carry our own personal biases. That's what makes the world interesting.

ballistic · December 2003

you surely made a mistake by buying an XT,

Your opinion (uninvited) about my buying decision is at most faintly interesting, but utterly irrelevant. It is my evaluation of the outcome that determines whether or not I made a mistake buying an XT, not yours.

I've never said it was a mistake, for the simple reason that it wasn't. However, unless I sing the praises of the car - and nothing but - folks like you and a small number of others choose to talk more about what I write than about the car. What's the point in that?

not only with out seeing the specs, but virtually sight unseen.\

Come off it, Frank. This is getting ridiculous. I knew as much as could be known about the XT prior to its actual arrival. Many of the specs, including some important ones, were unknown until later. Those of us who began discussing it here and elsewhere in March and April eagerly pointed one another to this tidbit or that factoid. Purchasers of the first examples of a new model are never able to know as much about it, no matter how conscientious, as those who buy later.

And now your pride is going to force you to keep it for another 10 years. Oh joy!

Pride? That's a peculiarly insulting term to describe what I call thrift.

Carry on, Frank. There's nothing I can do to temper your inclination to attack the views I express about my vehicle, or the process by which I bought it.

Why not talk about the car, instead of what I say about it? If my opinions don't match yours, why is that a problem for you? Provide balance by providing yours. That, IMO, is what ought to happen here - not sniping at whether someone else's opinions are "overblown" or not.

bluesubie · December 2003

And make sure you can test drive on the highway and fully experience all aspects of the Forester.

I test drove 4 WRX's before taking the plunge.

There are lots of complaints about the WRX's tires as well, especially as they wear. A lower cost all-season keeps the average owner happy, while most performance oriented drivers will upgrade them anyway.

-Dennis

ateixeira · December 2003

I gotta say, the Subaru threads are all pretty tame - except this one. At least we can say the XT is a car people feel strongly about. I doubt people argue this much about car they're bored with.

I've driven two XTs, a manual and an auto. My list is as follows.

Pros:
* blisteringly fast like I've never seen before
* excellent packaging for cargo
* great value for features/performance level
* solid safety scores (Best Pick, 20 stars, etc)

Cons:
* back seat still smallish
* no PP option with MT (move to Canada?)
* I don't own one

That last one is my biggest complaint!

-juice

ballistic · December 2003

I just feel that relative comparisons have more meaning

Unquestionably. When I'm able to provide specific comparisons to other cars I drove, I do so. I appreciate when others do the same, although I always have to filter what's said through my own priorities, because what is a plus to one is often a minus to another.

On the other hand, I don't think buyers of a new model ought to refrain from commenting about it (for or against) merely because they don't happen to know how car x or y compares on some specific point of interest. That's what the multi-car comparison tests in the automags are for.

overtime1 · December 2003

Is the Vue Redline available yet? I see discussion of the 3.5L 250hp MDX/Pilot engine (which is slightly detuned from what is my MDX...very sweet) in the V6 but no mention of the specific name "Redline". The Saturn website indicates it will be available in early 2004 and it looks like it has the same 3.5L engine but it will have sportier looks and suspension.

Any more info?

overtime

daniell · December 2003

Positives:
- solid all around construction. Sheetmetal thicker/stronger than many other brands.
- feels truly safe in foul weather.
- pretty quiet for it's shape

- lots of features for the price.
Negatives:
- needs longer wheelbase. Keep the same size, but increase wheelbase.
- suspension - i personally think it does not take bumps well (think highway expansion joints), and at the same time feels too soft in handling. Check a Lexus IS300, or even a Honda, to see how it should be done.
- too small for the price, at least here in the US...

kullenberg · December 2003

Now that you guys have driven them, and Jack has owned one for a while; I'd be curious to know how you think an XT auto, would be on a cross country trip? Mostly I'm concerned about comfort, and road noise. The OB's I've driven, were torture chambers for a big person, on a long trip.

Cheers and Seasons Greetings
Pat

atlgaxt · December 2003

Ok - In an effort to be more balanced. I've already fully expressed what I love about the XT. Here are some problem areas as I see them:

1. Minor rattles when going over bumps.

2. Climate control system with a mind of its own. I think I am getting closer to getting used to it or mastering it though.

3. Weak key fob.

4. Headlights. This is one I have not seen being talked about, as most seem to like them. The XT seems to have a more dramatic separation between high beam and low beam then I have experienced before. When driving in hilly areas in the country, the low is too low and the high is too high. Neither work well for me. Can that be adjusted somehow?

5. Ummm - I guess that is it.

Beyond the car itself, I would like to see better marketing and more equipment and color choices. Having said all that, the negatives are minuscule in comparison to the positives, and I give the XT a class leading 9.4 out of 10.

Pat - I am a pretty big guy and the XT is comfortable for me on the highway.

lumbar · December 2003

Your comments make a lot of sense and I guess there's no question that the Vue Redline is probably a VG comparison for the XT at the particular price point....Now here comes the big "but."

There are some deluded folks (:)), myself included, who shop for a car based on *some* basic requirements, but, in general, are looking for the best value in a particular price range when taking into account pretty much the whole universe of vehicles.

I don't know if this is a significant part of the car buying public, but it leads us to compare, for example, the XT Premium with the new Solara 6 cyl. Crazy? Perhaps. It can lead to some bizarre cross-shopping (e,g., a Quest). But my goal is to find the best meld of performance, reliability, and refinement in a vehicle in the 24-27K range, not necessarily to find the best mid-SUV in that range. For someone like me, AWD is not mandatory, but a part of the overall equation, as is cargo space. We own an OBS because it was the best combination of features at its price point in the universe of smaller vehicles, not necessarily because of any particular feature. For that reason, I'm always mindful of the fact that an XT (and a Forester in general), shares in at least some respects (noise, fit & finish)
a common heritage with an even less expensive car, the Imprezza).

I'm aware that this may be an atypical approach, but we are out there.

johnny420 · December 2003

I have to agree with Daniell (#2391) regarding the negatives of a vehicle being important to the prospective buyer. The good attributes of a new car will be pleasant surprises as they are revealed through daily driving, in the XT's case, the great performance and functionality. However, the negatives that reveal themselves over time will be disappointments and frustrations, and can cause one to doubt what amounts to a major purchase and longterm commitment.

It's a heckuva lot like deciding whether or not to spend your whole life with ONE woman. She'd better be the right one!

That's why I specifically queried Ballistic about the issues I know he has with his car.
The fact that he can still recommend the XT only speaks to its overall appeal. This is my first new car purchase, and I tend to be a cautious shopper, especially when it comes to large expenditures. Once you drive it off the lot, it's yours for good. Can't return it like you would a pair of drawers.

I WANT to know about things like the climate control not working well, and potential buzzes and rattles. Prospective buyers never used to have this info at their fingertips, but now they do, and I think it's great. Maddening, given the plethora of vehicle choices, but great nonetheless. Sometimes, too much info is a bad thing.

Ballistic, thanks for your input; sorry it caused you to get run through the wringer. And everyone else, thanks also. This is a terrifically informative forum.

The rest is up to me.

ballistic · December 2003

At risk of bringing forth still more harrangues about repeating what I've said before: Pat asks a question and directs it at me, so I'll answer. If the hosts object to the repetition, they'll say so. Diatribes from from Frank and John, in particular, will be disregarded.

I think the XT 5-speed is an good car for a cross-country trip (and I've taken several) - but I think the XT automatic is even better. Highway interior noise levels might impair your enjoyment of the stereo, among other things. The automatic XT I drove was very perceptibly quieter inside, and the difference can't all be attributed solely to the automatic's slightly taller overall top-gear ratio and correspondingly lower RPM. Perhaps the automatic transmission itself is quieter in operation than the MT.

In either version, mountains cease to exist. Nothing else I've ever driven flattens long, steep climbs the way these do. It is truly astonishing, and the higher you go, of course, the greater the difference between either XT and mere mortal (naturally-aspirated) cars. Kinda makes you feel like Superman, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

On the other hand, the smallish gas tank combined with mediocre MPG means your range between fillups is anything but long. Not a problem if you travel with small kids who need to stop frequently anyhow, but otherwise that's a nuisance.

ateixeira · December 2003

JB: you often mention road/tire noise, but I think the Forester is among the better models in its class.

Small SUVs are just loud as a group, I don't think it's fair to single out the Forester. In the last two C&D comparos it was the quietest both times!

So what you call a negative is actually an advantage when compared to its peers. That's the type of thing I'm referring to. Of course a Solara is more quiet (see below).

I think all Vue V6s use the Honda engine, but the Redline is of interest because they're supposed to tune out the slop from that suspension, maybe even improve the lousy seats, for the Redline package.

If not I'm not even interested in the model. A nice V6 bolted to a mediocre vehicle still makes for a mediocre vehicle. Witness the Sterling (Acura engine).

lumbar: Solara V6? Huh? Highlander maybe...

;-)

-juice

ballistic · December 2003

Some of my earliest comments, 'way back in June, were about the Forester driver's seat. The 2nd-gen Forester has a single vertical adjustment. As you raise the seat, it maddeningly also tilts forward. The seat (base) cushion is already none too long (front-to-back), and support under your knees and thighs is barely adequate. Then, if you raise the seat, the increased forward tilt just makes the seat base go even closer to flat, worsening the under-thigh support issue.

Notwithstanding, I've found that the higher I move the seat, the better - because for any given requirement for driver legroom, a higher seat meets it while preserving a modicum of kneeroom for whomever sits behind you. The Forester's raised roof means that even quite tall drivers can raise the seat at least partway without running out of headroom. This (IMO) is the secret to maximizing what space there is in the back seat.

The downside, though, is being left with not enough under-thigh support at the front of the driver's seat. I suggest you spend as much time as you can in an XT (or any 2nd-gen Forester) to see whether this will be a problem for you on long trips. The throttle on mine is too close when everything else is at the "right" distance, so the cruise control becomes mandatory for right-leg comfort.

rsholland · December 2003

Tis the season!

It seems Frank and JB have been dipping into that fossilized holiday fruitcake, followed by eggnog chasers. Happy holidays guys.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2003

I found the new seats very comfortable and supportive. I have two small kids so rear legroom doesn't become a problem until the mother-in-law has to sit between the two kids, then it's a squeeze.

I do know what you mean about the angle. I'd probably raise the front seat track, like I did with my Miata.

The seats themselves are great.

Go sit in a Vue, seriously, you'll almost fall out in comparison. Spongy, too soft, no support at all.

-juice

bluesubie · December 2003

Don't forget that the Forester is based on the Impreza. Those looking for more room might be happier in a Legacy (slightly bigger next spring) or maybe the upcoming 7 passenger Subaru.

-Dennis

Subaru XT Turbo Forester

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