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Loren
Loren :shades:
Did you know that the Corolla still sells for $14K with a stick? Has anyone driven the new Corolla and the Cobalt the same day for a comparison? Or the Civic? And did they end up buying a Cobalt? It looks like Hyundai is coming in under the radar with increase numbers of sales. They look alot like Japan makes, so many people have yet to notice that they are out there in ever increasing numbers. Right now it looks like the advantage of Cobalt is in the HP dept, but with so many other cars going head to head, perhaps GM should look to some other advantages as selling points, maybe free maintenance for four years, complete upgrade package in the car for say $15K, or something else not coming to mind at the moment, just to differentiate their car from the rest. I am afraid it will be lost amongst all the rest. Going RWD would be a possibility, if the cost was not so high, and in snow country, I know you guys and gals would need the traction control and other stuff for the RWD. Anyway, at some point, if not in the Cobalt size, they should be moving to cars with RWD. I think 2008 is the date for Monte Carlo RWD, but I am not sure on that one. Still think a smaller one, like maybe Malibu size in RWD, with an inline 6 would be cool and if sold for say under $21 may compete with BMW on the low end. Just a dream? I just don't think the course GM is taking will work. They must upscale and make really different looking and performing cars to survive. Let Korea and Japan fight it out on the low end cars.... but wait, it looks like Japan may be moving more towards mid to top line, and hybrids. How much of Daweo does GM own? Maybe it should be the low end badge like the Aveo as a GM Daweo and RWD mid-sized cars as GM Holden. Will there always be a Chevy and Cadillac - perhaps so. The Pontiac and Buick lines? If they downsized to four to six models, other than Cadillacs, and called them GM's without the badging of Chevy,Pontiac or Buicks would that hurt sales??? Brand loyalty with GM, some say so!
Loren
You are correct m1miata, going to too big with tires will only make the ride rough and potentially cause a bent rim.
Then I hope to see a diesel option for Cobalt.. To me these steps will be needed to shoot the Cobalt to the top of the sales charts.I am not sure what the barriers to diesel for USA are but it would good for GM not to be slow to break the barrier.If I had the cash now, would I buy an LS Cobalt.. I probably would.When I can afford a new car,, in about a year, Ihope the Cobalt is still at the top of the list.
Loren
meanwhile the engineers were stating smaller (16") wheels and upgraded tires would make the cars perform much better.
I guess it depends on whether you are buying the car for show or go?
And for that matter, how important should exterior styling be, given that we are __inside__ the cars most of the time while driving them?
A lot of people who buy and build imports, and even the new American pocket rocket cars, don't particularily care for Camero's and Mustangs. The import tuner is known to put $10-20,000 into their 4-cylinder engine for an edge on the other drivers.
The Celica was ok, but it didn't sell very well. I think the Cobalt and other coupes looks better than the Celica. I may be wrong by not looking, but I think the Cobalt SS, Ion, Neon, can also out perform the Celica in handling, excelleration, etc.
Motor Trend Feb 2005
"The Cobalt SS is the fastest regular production front-drive car through the slalom we've tested in three years, rocking through the cones even faster than the new Corvette Z51. The SS out cornered the VW R32 on the skidpad, outgunned the Mini Cooper S 0-to-60 mph, and outstopped the Subaru Impereza WRX 60-to-0 mph."
The Celica GTS is $22,500, has 180 hp and 130 lb-ft of torque. The Cobalt SS costs about the same, has 205 hp and 200 lb-ft of torque, and has superior handling. It's a no-brainer.
More about wheel sizes...
Loren claimed NASCAR uses tires that flex and they are 15". Don't see them as not gripping. NASCAR and every other major racing body limits wheel and tire sizes to promote competition and increase safety, not to maximize performance. NASCAR's limit is 15". LeMans Prototypes have an 18" limit. Look at the following list and tell me again why your 14" Miata wheels perform better than 17" wheels would. I'm not talking about practicality, just performance.
Car - Tire size front / rear
Ford GT - 18/19
Dodge Viper - 18/19
Carrera GT - 19/20
SLR McLaren - 19/19
Corvette - 18/19
Enzo - 19/19
Loren
I think this really comes down to us having different automotive philosophies. I think you're older, wiser, more experienced, and attracted to cars with above-average abilities and modest but attractive styling. I'm younger, smarter, and better-looking. No, I'm kidding. I'm attracted to cars that are at the top of their class in performance, and sporty and aggressive in appearance.
I am still learning about different cars and trying to experience them all for myself. I love driving and I love pushing the car and myself to the edge. Faster is never fast enough. I'll sacrifice practicality and convenience for performance any day as long as it's within reason. Firmer ride, bent rims, more expensive tires? Screw it, give me the 18"ers any day. I like how they look and I like how they drive. I believe you that your 14" Dunlops give you everything you need out of your Miata. For me that wouldn't be enough. The ultimate car for me has always been the Corvette. But until I can afford to keep one as my weekend car, I'll be interested in getting as much performance as I can out of my sporty daily driver. You're content to let good enough alone, but I'm always looking for more.
.
Does anyoneknoe if they will replace the 2.0L S/C with a S/C version of the 2.4L? They showed a version in Germany that does 250hp!
Loren
(1) I did not drive a Cobalt before purchasing my Mazda3. We had a horrible experience with a 1995 Cavalier (four head gaskets in 52,000 miles) and have sworn off GM products -- for now. By contrast, this is my sixth new Mazda vehicle since 1991, and I have been a very pleased customer.
(2) My 2005 Mazda3 is a five-speed hatchback/wagon/whatever they're calling it this week. I moved up from a 2000 Protege sedan and I love the flexibility and sportiness of this car, not to mention the horsepower increase from 125 to 160. I would not buy an automatic car.
(3) My Mazda3 is almost two months old and has a little over 2,000 miles on it. We've already had a few days above 90 and my air conditioning works fine -- whatever problem there was appears to have been limited to early 1994 models (most of the people complaining about it over on the Mazda3 discussions purchased their Mazda3s in October through December 2003). And I'm a big guy (280 pounds) and it takes quite a bit to cool down my big ol' bod, especially since I'm normally commuting 19 miles each way in a business suit.
(4) It's Velocity Red. :shades:
Enjoy your Cobalts; I'll see you at the next traffic light!
Meade
:shades:
Loren
I have always preferred a stick shift as well. I know on the older automatic transmissions, you could count on losing between 20-30 hp just by having that luxury.
I would take the IIHS tests more seriously than NHTSA although both are reliable.
Its good that you are taking safety seriously though.
I have driven the Corolla, and it is a very good car. I have not driven the Cobalt, but have looked at them, and sat inside them. I think that GM finally did their homework and brought out a car that is very competitive. I have a GM card so the incentive to buy GM is still there.
Dontshopthewal: I realize that the crash tests are not real world figures, and each crash is different, but man can GM get it right on all fronts for once?
Loren
Yes, there probably will be people who will get angry because of the lack of the rebate. They just need to be educated much like those who shop at Saturn and Car Max, who pay list price for a car, with no dickering.
Loren
--Robert
I think the crash safety ratings have boosted the Cobalt's standing. It has moved (along with the Corolla) to the top of the list for a lot of buyers.
Loren
Americans account for some 5% of new car sales with stick shift, while in Europe I believe it's over 50%.
Dashboard Looks like it was lifted from a Toyota, very quality looking peice
Simple side mouldings, modern pull style exterior door handles.
Flush rear and windshield moldings, (ever notice other GM's, they stick out and look cheap)
My only reservations are minor as I look at details.
The Old style whip antenna looks cheap, intergrate it into the rear window, it amazes me the technical advances auto makers have made but still stick an ugly 1950's antenna on the finished product/
The base engine has no Variable valve technology.
Will the round taillamps look good a few years from now? (coupe)
I think the coupe looks best from the side, the front has a late 80's econo look, But all in all I'm liking the looks a bit more than the outgoing civic.
They had the employee price posted which was 2,000 off msrp, seems like you can get this deal even without the employee price. Looks like the interior is where GM FINALLY honed in on, maybe the seats less so, but the dash looks as good as anything coming from hontoy..the parking brake looks a little akward, and the post mounted locks look a little funny,
What color do you think looks the best in the coupe,
especially in the area of the rear lamp surroundings? I am considering this little monster strongly, any opinions Thanks Sean
Loren
I am thinking the Cobalt will take on the Bargain basement cavalier image soon? what do you think?
___why did GM carry over the cheap drivetrain from the cavalier on the new cobalt, No clean slate?
___They should have deleted or relocated the trunk lock cylinder
___is this the same engine that ate head gaskets for lunch?
___Is this ecotech engine nearly refined as Toyotas small 4cyl?
I'm not really a brand loyalist, in my 20's, and have owned Nissan,Honda,Mitsu,Olds,Buick,Geo,Chevy,Chrysler and consistently the Japanese brands have always aged better in my case, even having twice the miles of some of there US plates,
I must say the drivetrain in the 3.8L GM's i've owned have been dead reliable, its just everything else that was just so-so. I want to beleive that GM is starting to see the light, but it seems to late, They are a bohemeth of a company, with fixed expenses retirement-healthcare killing them, along with the cry baby union, It's hard to see them remain competitive, Toyota is knippin at the Generals heels, But hey GM agreed to those Fat pension/healthcare plans so...GM got to Big and comfortable and stayed there.....for years..so its hard to feel bad for them..I hope they can turn it around, they used to own 1/2 the NA market share!! now they will be lucky to take 20% by the time Toyota gets there slice sad for a company thats been around forever, threatened by a once offshore company that everybody lauged at, I used to favor and somewhat defend foreign nameplates, But now I feel like GM is the little guy trying to get there cut to stay afloat, i never in a million years thought GM could ever wimper to another carmaker on home soil...Lazy and unimaginative for to long..GM needs to kick it into gear, and fast..There products sit on the same platform and drivetrains for way to long, Give us a mass market must have, they don't..A Camry of GM's
and perhaps a Nice alternative to the Sienna. Odyssey, they do very well in there segment.
I read that Chrysler started the Minivan research and development thing back in early 1977 and they were the first and they sold like
crazy, I guess all the good ideas are already taken, But GM gave us the Wondefull dustbuster/anteater looking Silohuette,Transport as an answer to Chrysler's successfull established Van thing..They always seem late to the game, Heck chrysler group always seems like the outa the box thinkers..They go after the gotta have it factor,but have there solid core products already making good profits..so they kinda take a chance..and they were at the brink of bankruptcy a couple times....Times have sure changed for the big 3..I think the Cobalt is much refined to the Neon, but the Neon is on its way out, soon to be replaced. so who knows. IMHO. Thanks Sean
*GM used to have nearly 60 percent of the US market! They were widely suspected of keeping AMC afloat for antitrust reasons.
*It was FORD who developed the minivan, but didn't have the guts to market it. When Lee Iacocca was fired at Ford, he went to Chrysler where he encouraged them to improve on Ford's ideas and get the vehicle out. Renault was also instrumental in all this, and Lee ended up getting Chrysler to acquire AMC from Renault.
*Whip antennas? Most manufacturers are going back to them. There are way too many complaints about reception from the in glass antennas, and the whip antennas are less expensive to boot. Power ones result in many, many warranty claims. Even the new Ford Five Hundred has a whip antenna.
*Meanwhile, you want them to delete the trunk key? Another cost saver most companies are now doing that GM didn't do here? Can they win for losing?
*Head gaskets? In the mid-Nineties, as asbestos was removed from gaskets, nearly every company had engines eating gaskets for lunch. I, myself, had a 3800 from GM eat one on a 95 Olds LSS. GM's response? Nothing. Still, I bought two more of those engines from them in the next five years...the cars were the ones that I wanted most at the time, given my needs and budget. Now, GM offers nothing I want, and I own a Ford. I'd have liked to have seen the Bonneville kept up to date and priced reasonably, but neither happened.
*Yeah, Chrysler has been so innovative that IT is the one that survives only because of a Government bail out and incredible rebate program (Buy a car, get a check!) and it is the one now owned and ran by....Daimler of Germany.
The Cobalt is a fine car. Would that other GM cars were designed as well.
I agree with you as to engines, but I doubt the average potential buyer of a Cobalt cares, though.
What do you mean by cheap drivetrain? I am sure that the cost of the engine and transmission are no different than what another combination would cost. The 2.2 L eco-tech hasn't been around too long. The Cavalier and a couple others have used it in recent years. It cost tens of milllions of dollars to come out with a new engine, and the eco-tech series engines are considered by experts to possibly be the tops in thier catagory, even with the tried-and-true Toyota engine which is just a derivative off an earlier model engine.
I believe the engine with the head gasket problems was the 2.3 L Quad-4. Otherwise those engines were pretty descent, and did pretty well in racing.
I don't know about the bargain basement image when you have upscale features like leather, with steering wheel cruise control, music volume adjustment, optional Pioneer stereo with MP3, XM satellite radio, OnStar roadside assistance, etc.
The Aveo is supposed to fill the bargain economy buyers needs, which it has a strong foot-hold in right now.
Chrysler may have been the first U.S. automaker to market a mini-van, but VW was the first to the market in a mini-van, VW Bus.
My general opinion on the Cobalt is that it is a good looking car with only a few detail problems. I like the interior. I dislike the tail lights on the coupe.Or the Impala or Vette for that matter. The sedan needs more rear leg room. An Aveo has as much as the Cobalt. In my area I have yet to see one stickered for anything close to the base price. I would have to order one. 20G for a Cobalt is crazy....IMO.
:shades:
Loren
As for the remote start, as far as I know it's only available on the Malibu, Monte Carlo.
I saw an Orange coupe this morning.
The 4-speed automatic is an old, smooth, proven transmission. I would have thought that they would have a 5-speed auto (as with the Malibu), but not yet. I guess if you don't have the capacity to build all the transmissions needed, its best to stick with an old reliable model until the new ones are thoroughly tested.
The shifter in the base Cobalt is kindof basic, bland. I could get used to it, its no big deal. I believe the sport package option gives you a different shifter like in the SS model.
I don't see or care about the difference in plastics. For the most part it is all the same and just something for someone to nick-pick about. My 1992 Chevy pickup trucks plastic is fine. I never gave it a second thought, nor do I rub my hands or face against the plastic before and after I drive my vehicle.
The 4-speed automatic is an old, smooth, proven transmission. I would have thought that they would have a 5-speed auto (as with the Malibu),
To the best of my knowledge, the Malibu has the venerable 4 speed too. What is odd is that last year they briefly had a 5 speed automatic tranny on the Saturn Ion, but then discontinued it (and the optional CVT) in favor of the 4 speed.
I test drove the 5 speed Saturn at that time and wasn't impressed with it. It didn't seem to add anything to the car versus the Neon with a 4 speed that we eventually got. I expected more from the extra speed; maybe it was the gearing set up. On a 2005 Honda CR-V we have, the 5 speed automatic is very neat (although it is slushy shifting from 1-2).
I test drove the 6 speed in the new Jetta. It is also very good.
I also recently test drove a 4 speed Cobalt, it was good, a little crisper shifting than my former Neon. I also rented a Focus with a 4 speed auto, and it was worse than the Neon and Cobalt.
To me the best thing about 5 and 6 speed automatics, is the ability to throw a downshift on the freeway without having to put up with the motor racing excessively. Ordinarily there is too much gap between 4 and 3 on a four speed automatic.
What is ironic is that, apart from long term reliability, most of these autos should feel about the same. They can be programmed to upshift, downshift under different throttle loads and drive conditions. The "doggy" 2002 Neon automatic was transformed by reprogramming into the excellent post-2003 tranny; it was like night and day. I wait for the day when speed shops sell gear to let you reflash your own automatic to match your driving preferences.
Saturns CVT (made by another company) transmission was dropped after too many problems. The CVT is still a controversial transmission by other manufactures as well, and I wouldn't be caught with one. It will take a special technician to service this type of transmission, and at what expense?
I wish you good luck with your Neons automatic being that Chrysler has had a lot of problems their automatics not lasting long.