Buick LaCrosse

dindak · January 2004

Honda detunes it's 3.5L for the Pilot. It's pretty common practice. Oddly enough the VUE with the same motor has 10 more hp than the Pilot.

3.6L will be standard on all LaCrosse trims within a year or two I'll bet.

alpha01 · January 2004

"Certainly this car is more interesting than a Camry and the top line engine on paper better (and in the CTS) is better than anything in the Camcorder."

HAHAHAHAHAHA. That was a joke right? Those chrome wheels are real beauty as well.

~alpha

dindak · January 2004

I'd give the upper hand the LaCrosse.

That said, I can think of many other better looking cars than Camry or LaCrosse

stormdavy · January 2004

I popped a Park Avenue Ultra grille into this thing to make it look more aggressive.

Don't claim to have the expertise of Robert Cumberford, but feel the one photo seen shows true to Buick proportions, has a nimble stance I like, and definitely evokes certain other vehicles already mentioned w/ the equine nostril-like inner lamps, including the mid-90s Lexus SC.

A post in gminsidenews.com's LaCrosse topic identifies something called "Uni-Picture Reaction Syndrome". Good reading.

regfootball · January 2004

"If its hilariously high like a Comp-G is with leather etc (and leather is standard on the top trim level on this car apparently), I'd rather just get a TL."

Yeah, or many other non-Buick products come to mind also.

The TL keeps looking better to me all the time. Just wish the front end wasn't so cheap looking. The interior on the TL is luscious. The thing is built with swiss watch precision on the interior trim.

The spy photo of the LaCrosse interior shows promise. Maybe if its ok, the DOHC motor and nice interior could make a case for buying this less than attractive exterior if the incentives were there.

To the tune of like 5 or 6 thousand bucks plus a 2k GM card rebate.

1487 · January 2004

Why is an OHC motor a requirement for the car being good? What tangible benefits will the owner get is the car has 24V vs. 12V? If this car had a pushrod but was sold as having a DOHC engine most owners wouldnt know or care. I'm glad they put the 3.6 in the car, but that alone doesn't make it acceptable. ANd why are people so skeptical about the interior? Did anyone look at the interior of the Cobalt or the Malibu or G6 or even the minivans? It's obvious GM has stepped up its game in terms of interiors. Do you really think this car is going to have a Regal-like interior? Do you think Lutz is that stupid?

jchan2 · January 2004

I'll be waiting for interior pictures along with the pictures of the rear end before I declare the Five-Hundred/Montego the winner. Offering the 3.6 only on the CXS is a mistake though.

chavis10 · January 2004

I think the LaCrosse is hot. Definitely better looking than the "Camcorder" (i really like that one!!). Also, it looks better than the Altima/Maxima and the 500 is just too plain. The TL is a nice piece indeed. Definitely better looking than the Accord. Since we have a '98 Intrigue, this looks like the only car in the General's arsenal that could be an upgrade.

rctennis3811 · January 2004

Looks better than an Altima?? You're kidding right??

regfootball · January 2004

Lutz isn't stupid, however his organization has the worst track record of ANY in terms of turning its ship around and being more concerned with themselves rather than competition.

I wish folks would give up on asking why OHC is needed in cars like this. It is, get over it. The Acuras, Toyotas, etc of the world have raised the bar for engine tech and smoothness and performance.

Cars attempting to sell in this price range need to match the competitors on vital points like this. DOHC, aluminum, vvt, etc. yada. Otherwise folks are saying, why should I pay THIS much for something not as good under the hood? It makes absolutely no difference if the difference is real or perceived (in this case its the double whammy of both).

"most owners wouldnt know or care"

I beg to differ, you get out of the cheapo midsize market and into the premium car categories (WHICH THIS IS AT THE STICKERS BUICKS GO FOR) the market demands these features. Its way too easy for folks to walk and buy the 10 other competitors. If the brochure don't convince em the competition is better, a five minute test drive will.

I mean, check out this Acura TL with the pushrod iron block 2 valve motor.......hehe. BETTER PUT INCENTIVES ON THAT ONE.

That's why this new engine will be a revelation for Buick. It should help their faithful, stubborn, and shrinking clientele move on from the notion of 'good enough for us is good enough for everyone else'. They will be dragged kicking and screaming into the rest of the market. Not just the internal GM competition.

dindak · January 2004

OHV engines can be made and placed in cars such that 95% of people would not know. Your belief that everyone knows whats under the hood is simply fiction.

THAT SAID, I do think the 3.6L should be the only engine on this car. It would give Buick a premium edge over the GP / Impala which have the 3800 also.

b4z · January 2004

I noticed that regal sales are far below what Intrigue's were when Oldsmobile was killed off.

joey2brix · January 2004

This re-skinned grand prix is another mistake like the minivans. As someone pointed out in another thread, even the G6 has more interior room then the GP so the same must apply to the Lacrosse. So we just created a smaller old man's LeSabre? Why bother with such an old model?
While true, some people just expect there to be an engine that runs OHV/OHC or squirrel cage for that matter but it would be foolish to say the majority don't care and this is reflected in the declining market share for GM and the average Buick owner's age ranking up there with social security recipients. So you still think this is a Lexus beater Lutz?

dindak · January 2004

No I don't think this Buick is a Lexus beater. That said, I have not seen one (no one has) so who knows for sure?

GM's market share has little to do with OHV motors and lots to do with so so / dated cars and a less than average quality legacy.

regfootball · January 2004

"It would give Buick a premium edge over the GP / Impala which have the 3800 also."

Again, GMonly think. GM is not to be caring about the competition within its own walls. THE OTHER MANUFACTURERS ARE THE COMPETITION THAT IS EATING THEIR LUNCH.

who cares if buick steps on chevy? IT DOESN'T MATTER! Buick needs to step on Toyota, Lexus, Honda, VW, twenty other manufacturers!

AAARRGGHHHH! Alfred Sloan died EONS AGO!

"GM's market share has little to do with OHV motors and lots to do with so so / dated cars and a less than average quality legacy."

WHY DO YOU SUPPOSED THE CARS ARE THOUGHT OF AS DATED AND SO SO?

Engine technology and NVH is a major component of this!

AAARGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

dindak · January 2004

Go ask a secretary in your office what's under the hood of her Corolla. The answer will be "a 4 cyl" at best. Not everyone in the world knows (or cares) as much as you do Reg. You are dreaming if you think so.

johnclineii · January 2004

he seems to like capital letters a lot, too.

still think few in this class care a whit if the valves go up, down, sideways or across, as long at the car goes and there is room for cargo.

jchan2 · January 2004

I think that each division within a company should have something unique on each of their cars so that there's a reason why someone bought that car other than "Because It's a Buick (or something else)" or "because of the incentives". I DO think the LaCrosse/Allure should have the 3.6 simply to get an edge over the Pontiac G6 and the Chevrolet Malibu.

regfootball · January 2004

the Buick should have the 3.6 BECAUSE the competition does and that demands it. Not because chevy and Pontiac do or don't.

3800 is a not a product that is a appropriate for anything besides white bread bottom feeder market segments. Buick is supposed to be premium product.

johnclineii · January 2004

That's your opinion. It's been the engine in my last three cars. I could afford virtually any car sold in the average mid-size town. The presence, or absence, of an OHC engine is not a factor I even consider. That's true of most people in this segment. Reg, you don't see that and apparently never will. That's fine.

I can't speak for others, but for me, at least, this entire line of discussion is needless rehash of a tired old song where all the chorus's keep singing the same hackneyed lines. Can we move on to something else?

alpha01 · January 2004

"I can't speak for others, but for me, at least, this entire line of discussion is needless rehash of a tired old song where all the chorus's keep singing the same hackneyed lines. Can we move on to something else?"

No, please, by all means speak for me as well. Your last post was succint, well written, and DEAD ON.

(Reg's beloved Ford 3.0L Duratec produces 20 fewer lb. ft. than Chevy's 3.5L OHV, while returning an average of 4 to 5 MPG LESS. And for all his arguing, the Duratec sounds and feels no better than the GM OHV, and certainly doesnt sing, or produce the power/torque of a Honda or Toyota OHC V6).

~alpha

dindak · January 2004

johnclineii : It's always the same song with reg and he things everyone else likes that kind of music. That said, I do think the Buick should have only had the 3.6 in this car. I don't think there is anything wrong with the 3800 III but for a premium car the car should have a little more in the way of HP.

regfootball · January 2004

its not just hp, its refinement and smoothness.

3800 is not appropriate in a car intended to compete in the near lux and high end mid size segments.

corvette · January 2004

When I was looking for a late-model used car, I considered the Bonneville, but there were no models to be found with the side airbags (optional starting in 2003). I also read up on the headgasket issues with the 3800 engines, and GM's attitude towards the problem. I bought an Altima (with the optional safety features). Although the 3800 is regarded by many as "bulletproof," the message board posts tell a different story with respect to the headgasket leaks.

tomcat630 · January 2004

I don't understand why ABS is not stnadard anymore other than cost cutting. Also, the general public "has heard bad things about it". Maybe that they can't adjust to the pulsating brake pedal?

I laugh at those who claim that they can modualate the brake pedel better than an ABS system. I'd like to see them try.

dindak · January 2004

I find the 3800 to have these qualities. I only mentioned HP because that's all I think it lacks for this suposidly premium car.

rctennis3811 · January 2004

refinement and smoothness aren't strong traits of the 3800 Series. Those are best left to the OHCs.

regfootball · January 2004

i guess buick drivers don't want that then. :P

the experience of driving something like a nissan vq would be so radically different it would throw them off.

jchan2 · January 2004

The 3.0 Duratec will be replaced soon, in 2006, when the Duratec 35 comes out...
I think that the LaCrosse/Allure should have the 3.6 High Feature mainly because it's competition has engines that deliver more power, more torque and higher fuel economy numbers. (then again, the numbers the Malibu delivers are pretty good)

theo2709 · January 2004

GM needs to start producing the 3.2L HF engine. It would produce equal if not more power than the Malibu, and it is not expensive to produce. That should be in the Malibu, along with the new 6-speed automoatic transmission. A five-speed manual would also be a welcome addition. GM is basically the last company that uses pushrod engines, and I am starting to get annoyed.

rctennis3811 · January 2004

I'm annoyed too when even Ford and Chrysler used DOHCs!

dindak · January 2004

My parent's 03 LeSabre 3800 is very smooth. Car handles awful, but the power train is silky and solid.

chevyguy657 · January 2004

After being away all week, here is my 2 cents.

Compared to the spy shots a few years ago of the '04/'05 Regal, which I found quite attractive,, I don't care for the front-end of this car. Borders on ugly (and shocked me, for sure).

Will be fun to see the back of it and the interior. We'll know this Wed. (the 4th).

Engine choices are fine to me.

The side view is very-'04 Grand Prix-ish and that's really bad, since the roofline falls very sharply and you'll have to duck to get in it, as in the GP. Will be interesting to see if the rear accomodations are any better than in the GP. I'm not exactly holding my breath.

But what REALLY worries me is GM's lack of safety consideration with this car (lack of ABS in lower-level trim lines, etc.) (GP crash-test results all over again? Hope not; time will tell.) After I saw the latest IIHS side impact tests on PBS' MotorWeek this morning (not the whole battery - which will probably be on Dateline shortly - they only picked on the Suzuki Verona which failed horribly, due to lack of ANY side-impact protection), I'll be demanding head curtains for sure. I'm assuming they'll be offered on the LaCrosse/Allure either as a standard or an option, but I also want 5's in the front-crash test too, not a NHTSA 3 and 4.

If it's priced in line with the 500, could be a tough road for this car to sell without big incentives (but I don't care for the styling of that one either).

Off to read the latest Malibu posts....

1487 · February 2004

Regardless of what gear heads want to believe most people don't know what the hell an OHV engine is, nor do they care. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that having an OHC engine is automatically better than a pushrod. Ford and Chrysler OHC V6s have never been praised for quietness or smoothness. They are definitely not more refined than the 3800 or the 3500. Regfootball doesn't like pushrods or anything else GM puts out, yet he stays in GM topics. I don't get it. It is obvious he has never driven a current GM car with an OHV because if he did he would know they are very quiet at idle and there is no shaking or rattling or anything else. The 3800 is a good base engine for this car and I'm sure the majority of LaCrosses will eb dold with that engine even thought the 3.6L will be available. Also, why are people claiming this car was supposed to be a "Lexus beater"? Lutz said Buick would become an American Lexus on a lower price scale. He never said people would abandone Lexus to jump into Buicks. He was saying that Bucik would have a reputation for quiet, smooth riding cars with nice interiors. That's all he meant.

Also, Chrysler and Ford make OHV engines. Where have you guys been? Has enyone here ever heard of the HEMI? Did anyone notice the new '05 Mustang has a 4L OHV V6 as its standard engine?

jchan2 · February 2004

yeah, I've heard of the HEMI engine going into the Durango and the 300/Magnum. Mostly thorugh TV ads, but I've noticed.

joey2brix · February 2004

Not even worth typing about. Both still in red ink. I don't mix trucks and cars. Who cares about an extra 500 lbs of cast iron motor on a truck that already weights 6 tons. But in general I don't have an issue with CI big blocks. If you got 4 tons of car and need torque, get the Vette engine in the GTO. But GM will be back in red ink unless them move forward in engine, drivetrain, saftey and quality. How will they ever get ahead of honda/toyota in hybrid technology if they're still playing with 30 year old CI OHV engines?
The Lacrosse won't get SAC on an old platform re-skin. Basically GM is only putting out 1 "new" car platform models for '04: Malibu, and 3 for '05: G6,Cobalt and STS. Not to mention Epsilon was out in Europe for two years already. If America wants a "cheap" Lexus, they buy a Toyota, FACT! Lutz is just a sly marketing guy making it sound like GM's comming out with 25 new models when most are re-badges and re-skins. I don't call a new Vette and some relabled Korean junk models major R&D on GM's part.

rctennis3811 · February 2004

The Mustang V6 is a 4.0L SOHC 12-valve producing 202HP.

Also, I think what reg is trying to say is that they are not AS smooth as DOHCs, which is true in some ways. The OHV engine is fine, but to lure some buyers away from an ultrasmooth Lexus DOHC engine? Nope. I guess that's what the 3.6L "HIGH FEATURE" engine is for..

regfootball · February 2004

I've driven several of the GM OHV's and all of them are simply not as good to drive as the competition. -TO ME- they flat out suck in comparison to the competition in engine smoothness, drivability and quality of sound.

Bonneville SE and SSEi s/c and non s/c
Grand Prix w 3.8
Regal GS w/ s/c
Olds 88 (my father in law's car which I drive very often)
Malibu (2003)
Intrigue w 3.8 (without was much better)
Lumina
Riviera w/ s/c
Grand Am w 3.4
LeSabre
Impala LS
Camaro w/ 3.8 and also w 3.4

help me out here, you say I HAVEN'T DRIVEN ONE OF GM's pushrod CARS????????

If you wanna loaf at 1800 rpm on the highway all say and sleep and drive at the same time, the 3800 is a quality product. If you want to have an experience on the next level, the 3800 is not appropriate.

A buick is a premium car competing with other cars that have vastly more refined powertrains. Therefore, the 3800 is only appropriate in the sense if someone who basically wants a Buick label and doesn't care about how good the car is compared to the others. So fine, offer it in the base car. At least give others a choice (which is finally what they are doing here). GM should offer this choice in all their other sedans.

The Grand Prix and Bonneville were the best driving of the 3800's but neither sent shivers down my spine. Considering how dirt cheap you can buy a Grand Prix its acceptable I guess but the product would be much better if they offered an optional upgrade to something more refined.

Options never hurt, you know.

rctennis3811 · February 2004

He's just one of those guys who can't accept the fact that GM won't win with this car...

dindak · February 2004

My parents 2003 3800 Lesabre is as silky smooth as anything I have driven. Not as powerful.. but just as smooth.

rctennis3811 · February 2004

And what else have you driven? Malibu LT? Try accelerating on an OHC and OHV and you'll notice a difference. But, as everyone knows - a lot of people don't know what's under the engine.

stormdavy · February 2004

A ton is 2000 lbs. New GTOs around 2 tons, not 4.

dindak · February 2004

I have a 3.5 OHC Intrigue and that is what I compare it to. I do know the difference. Less power in the 3800 than my 3.5 (as per the obvious rating), but it feels just as smooth in the Lesabre.

johnclineii · February 2004

rctennis3811 said a lot of people don't know what's under the engine. Answer: The Road.

giggle.

And GM is not in the business of making BUICKS which send shivers down regfootball's spine. If they did, the target market would be scared away, probably to a nice Mercury...Grand Marquis, anyone?

jchan2 · February 2004

if Buick is supposed to increase sales, then they should put out some models that get the young buyers screaming "I'M HEADING DOWN TO THE BUICK DEALER TO ORDER UP A NEW CAR!" You can't just throw out a few SUVs and a luxury van to chase younger buyers. You need OHC engines as smooth as those sitting in the Lexus LS430 that's up for sale down the road. You need the latest technology and safety features. The car needs to be affordable. The car needs to be very fun to drive. A five speed automatic is a must. NO INCENTIVES, PLEASE. You need the latest luxury features. An excellent buying experience. Dealers that treat you well. A nice and lengthy warranty (not the standard 3/36. A 4/50 is nice, a 5/60 is better) Reliability. Did I miss anything?

rctennis3811 · February 2004

Great list!

regfootball · February 2004

let's see

powertrain smoothness on par with the Nissans Toyotas and Hondas and their luxury marques.

better warranty

5 sp automatic

nah, that would be asking too much. the old middle age man club running detroit wouldn't want to do that. since they only look within GM for competition, they may not have even noticed that many other manufacturer's are getting aggressive with warranties.

really though, let's just celebrate the small breakthroughs here. you CAN get the new 3.6 in this car, and the interior spy photo promises an interior that might be something that won't cause you to lose your lunch.

maybe its not a home run, but just a start.

I chuckle when I see Park Avenues with 40k stickers and Regals with 32k stickers. I am sure this car will have high end stickers well over 30. But it will also likely have 5 grand in incentives behind it too, to please the faithful and give them something to aspire to.

The optional engine choice and improved interior may just be enough to keep this car from being a complete waste of effort. Maybe its just pluggin a market gap for 3 years or so.

jchan, your insight on that last post was almost perfect.

orwoody · February 2004

There are lots of ways to squeeze performance out of an engine design and GM has as much technology as Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, BMW, Lexus....anyone
It all comes down to $$$$$$ really. The bean counters (no offense intended - I am happily married to one) usually pull the most weight in final decisions about cost. Its a fact that OHV engines are more expensive to make and more Expensive to repair (they are more complicated with more parts to break).
I am less interested in the engine design, and much more interested in performance and performance of the whole package. Drive the various mfrs and buy what you like/want.

johnclineii · February 2004

Great post, but I think you meant:

Its a fact that OHC (NOT V) engines are more expensive to make and more Expensive to repair (they are more complicated with more parts to break).

And the title should have read OHC vs. Pushrod. In everyday parlance, aren't OHV engines pushrods? Or did I miss something?

b4z · February 2004

Production:
21,429 Buicks this year vs. 42,884 last year.

http://www.autonews.com/files/prod.pdf

Buick LaCrosse

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