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Buick LaCrosse
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And this board was the culprit in more ways than one.
I graciously "evicted" myself from this discussion a while back to avoid any further annoyance on any of you. And I did the right thing.
But, I'm a car guy, like most, if not all, of us, and like talking about a new GM model, whether I'm interested in it personally or not. And I don't think that's a bad thing, as long as we are civil. Some members apparently weren't, and I'm stunned with the outcome.
Comprende?
I think if it wants to succeed more and more people like nav. systems and want them esp. for a car in the lower 30's. IT IS A MUST, but why GM not said anything about it??
WILL THEY ADD ONE??
I sure hope
And now I've found out, VERY RECENTLY, that the '05 Malibu is being rushed into production (June, rather than August), which really fouls up my plans. Something has gone awry, and they're being very quiet about it thus far.
Well, if I leave GM, sure I'll be back later.
Why is GM not offering Nav on its mid-sizers? Probably because the price is out of sight to begin with. Don't count on it on the LC. I would have liked the option on the Malibu and G6 as well. Not gonna happen.
I know Mitsubishi "fouled up" big time by not having one in the new Galant, but I didn't think GM would make the same mistake.
I think GM is slow to add NAV systems because they want to sell OnStar as an alternative. I know NAV is available on some caddy's which reflects the realization that you need them to play in that market.
Both NAV and OnStar have their strengths and weaknesses. I have never had a dashboard NAV unit, but have used a GPS and travel software on my laptop. It's cool to see where you are on the screen, but the directions have been disappointing.
I now have OnStar and the direction feature works pretty good.
Hopefully the LaCrosse will stand taller against its competition, folding rear seat (or lack thereof) not withstanding.
~alpha
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=02421263
Where did you get the dimension info? How do you know "the length of the car seems long given the interior dimensions"?
I would imagine that GM's main objective is strenthenging the bottom line. In doing so, I'm sure it weighed the pros and cons of losing the Century base. Think about it- I'd imagine a good number of Century buyers will trade up to a LaCrosse CX, which will still offer many of the necessary convenience items this group requires. Assuming that the line on rebates is held, this number of current Century purchasees that upgrade to the LaCrosse will be providing GM with a much higher profit per vehicle. I'd guess that GM expects the differential in profit per vehicle vs. lost sales to the current Century customer base AT LEAST break-even, or they'd be offering a Buick on the Epsilon platform as the article states.
Factoring into the equation that the current Century base is in their 60s, I dont think GM is concerned about the loss of repeating sales.
In my opinion, dropping the Century completely is wise.
~alpha
They say Buick is getting a $3 bil. revamp by GM. Great news, the Lacrosse is the first NEW BUICK
LeSabre replacement will out for 2006, I think this will be a nice car, this is a FULL SIZE sedan, probably competes with more upscale cars
The RWD sedan will replace Park Avenue, finally PA will disappear, its an ugly car
And bigger news will come this YEAR, Buick plans to unveil a 4-door convertible concept at the NY Auto Show, don't mind my stupid statement, but I have never heard of a 4 door convertible, it will be RWD!!
What is a 4door convertible like? Does one exist yet?
If I were a Buick dealer, though, I'd be biting my fingernails down to the cuticles seeing there's no LeSabre replacement until '06. I hope, for their sake, that's *early* '06 as the current one is already long in the tooth. I like the sound of their "flagship," though. Quiet, top draw interiors are a good way to go.
I've never understood the passion about 4 door convertibles. They last existed back in the 60's, correct? I don't see a huge market for this, but I could be wrong. Standard convertibles aren't exactly setting the market on fire right now...
Overall, though, with LaCrosse and this general plan, they're heading in the right direction.
- Bret
PS: A possible look at the "flagship" was at the bottom of this webpage. As you can see, some of this webpage's future car guesses have been wrong (like their 2005 Cobalt), but others have been correct. We'll see!
I'm still feeling a bit "lost". If I (read;we) knew if for a fact that Saturn will slot into Olds' vacated spot, I'd agree with not haveing a "Malibu" clone" in the lineup. And yes, the LC CX is an option. We'll see in a few months, but I'll bet that even a reasonably equipped CX will top $25K. "They" won't go for that. So, other than SUVs (ugh, personally), just whom does Buick cater to? Enough for one post. Call it fair, but "leerily critical".
I'm still feeling a bit "lost". If I (read;we) knew if for a fact that Saturn will slot into Olds' vacated spot, I'd agree with not haveing a "Malibu" clone" in the lineup. And yes, the LC CX is an option. We'll see in a few months, but I'll bet that even a reasonably equipped CX will top $25K. "They" won't go for that. So, other than SUVs (ugh, personally), just whom does Buick cater to? Enough for one post. Call it fair, but "leerily critical".
all in all, it's a really nice car, but i keep telling her that if she puts some 18" chrome wheels on it to match the front and rear chrome detailing, it'll look really REALLY nice!
i think the new lacrosse is a good start for buick, and with such a long and storied history, adding some style and zip to the product line-up should make buick a kool marque in the next few years, cuz everyone loves LUXURY, right?
They can always say, "well, we threw a bunch of money at it and Buick didn't perform so we are killing it".
There is a huge gap right now between Pontiac and the "newly upmarket" Buick. Duh?
Lights are on, but I figure they're sipping a bit too much Merlot. Or worse, martinis.
in any case, buick and cadillac have always traditionally crossed over with certain models in their respective lineups, sharing powerplants and high-end GM technologies such as stabilitrak and so forth.
If I recalle, Oldmobile had the Cutlass, LSS, Ninety-Eight (or something like that and its other variants), Alero, Intrigue, Aurora, and Bravada. Plus, they still introduced more trim levels and a new Aurora and Bravada..but still, they died. I bet that's what's going to happen to Buick too. Setting Lexus as their benchmark probably wasn't a great idea.
I wonder where some of you conjure up some of these predictions about GM's demise. Are you reading the same articles as I am? I believe Cadillac said they too are moving upmarket with no future vehicles costing less than the current CTS. In fact, they are planning a Maybach type ultraluxury cruise ship. Once again, the double standard is in affect for GM. How is it that BMW has the nerve to sell a stripped 525i with under 190hp STARTING in the mid 40s while you can get a 330i performacne package for about the same price. Benz has the audacity to charge around $70+k for an underpowered S430 whose engine isn't even offered in the lower model E or CLK class. MT has a long term E class that cost about $68k. That babby is steppin all over the toes of the S class.
I'll tell you what's absurd. Can you say BMW 1 series, or how about Cclass SportCoupe. How is it that you can go to the same dealership and order a Designo SL600 for about $140k and also test drive a $25k C Sport Coupe with a Kompressor 4 banger??? If Cadillac is doing so fine, why have they been trailing in sales? I mean, hopefully that'll change soon.
I think Lutz is trying to position Buick as a company who makes luxurious sytlish vehicles with an emphasis on comfort as opposed to sport. Cadillac seems to be tackling the Europeans in the areas of driving dynamics and cost no object luxury.
it wasn't too long ago that americans were laughing at the crappy 3-wheeled BMW that post war-ravaged germany was building, and then germans and americans were scoffing at the crappy tin Civic that japan started building, then japanese, germans and americans were rolling their eyes at the crappy little Pony koreans started building...
Buick and Cadillac have a long and storied history of building beautiful powerful stylish cars. i'm sure they can someday recapture that cachet, but it'll take time. If Buick were building a sweet-looking sports sedan today with great handling and power everything, do you really think people would say "yuck, no way, it's a BUICK?" I doubt it.
It has to do with their product, which is really not bad at all, just lacking in the wow factor. it'll happen with time. And there's no way GM will axe Buick. Oldsmobile went the way of the dodo bird because the nameplate sounded too "old", that's all.
Joey2brix- Actually, BMW sales FELL in January. Im wondering if it has to do with all the criticism over the redesigned 5-series, the panning of the overpriced X3, and the fear that Chris Bangle is going to slaughter the next 3 series.
~alpha
PS- The www.buick.com website has been updated, and includes a link for a contest to win a new, fully loaded 2005 LaCrosse. You can only enter once via the internet. PLEASE NOTE- if you continually trash the La Crosse, please dont enter, so the chances of those who are interested in the vehicle are better! (not serious, folks, just relax......).
Well, I guess I grew up on the "other side of the tracks". Once Granddad went over the top with his salary, he finally traded in his loaded Olds 98, for a what? A Sedan deVille. Buick, oh please. Due to health reasons, Dad never made it beyond a Cutlass Supreme Brougham.
And on the other side of the family, it was (finally) trading in an ancient (one of those folks, like me, that can afford a lot more but want value) Olds Dynamic 88 for a, guess what, Sedan deVille.
why in the world would GM scuttle that? doesn't make sense to me. GM would be better off ditching Saturn. No legacy, no history, and that Ion steering wheel--Playland wants it back on bumper car no. 26.
did you know that before lutz came on board, the design department at GM was a subdivision of the engineering department? that already is a statement in itself, saying that they are not equal partners in the making of a car. how humiliating for the creative people.
if you examine how an advertising agency works, for example, there is a creative dept (comes up with ideas) a media dept (buys media time and space) and an accounting dept (handles budget). each department has its own particular set of challenges, and its own special kind of expertise in problem-solving. you would never want to put one group of personnel under the umbrella of another because you would end up with a lousy product.
GM has mishandled its personnel and by extension its product for way too long. the management needed a wake-up call and some fresh blood and we're gonna start seeing the fruits of that change real soon.
INSTEAD, the convertible concept at NY Auto show will be a 4-passenger convertible, LOL
LOL FUNNY!! Never seen a 4-door convertible before
joeybrix:
The lesabre's six year product cycle is normal for GM and most european manufacturers. It will be replaced after 6 years which is better than VW is doing with the Passat and Jetta which have been out since '99 or '00 and wont be replaced until late 2005. The GS400 came out as a '98 model and wont be replaced until the 2006 model year.
As a former Oldsmobile owner, I can tell you the brand was really negelected near it's death. The mid to late 90s saw some new product(Cutlass, Silhouette, Intrigue, Alero) but then in 99, they started dropping models. Granted the Eighty-Eight didn't fit the new Ols image, but in late 98 the Eighty-Eight was dropped with no immediate replacement(the 01 V6 Aurora was over a year away from being introduced) and then the Cutlass was dropped after 99. In the 2000 MY, Oldsmobile actually only 4 vehicle lines; Intrigue, Alero, Silhouette, and Bravada.
Well, what are the Cobalt, 500, g6, CTS, and 04 Malibu? Still not interested, then go get a warmed over 2004 VW Jetta (in its 6th year, and they say GM is slow). Or the Audi A8 Edsel.
Also, Accord sales are slipping, while Altima and Camry are still growing. Maybe Honda isn't going to 'take over' as predicted?
I was at my Ford/Toyota dealer today getting my Contour SVT an oil change and got another look at the current Camry models... Whew, insomnia on wheels. It might have the most dull, characterless interior I've seen in a long time. I have no doubt the LaCrosse will compete very well against this car.
To tomcat630:
That "some poster" you mentioned was probably me, and I fully stand by what I said. You're right that VW and some other European makers don't have a more rapid product cycle than the US makers, but the big difference is that VW and others had *class leading* products at introduction and are still winning comparison tests now! How many GM products are winning comparison tests either in their first or 7th year? Let's take a look at all the "old" cars still winning Edmund's own Most Wanted:
- Sedan under $25,000: The "old" Passat
- Sedan under $35,000: The "old" 3-series
- Wagon under $25,000: The "old" Passat
- Coupe under $25,000: The "old" Golf
- Coupe under $35,000: The "old" 3-series
- Convertible under $25,000: The "old" Miata
- Convertible under $45,000: The "old" 3-series
Thank goodness for the Corvette, because none of GM's older or "newer" non-SUV's made the list. We'll see how the Cobalt, 500, and G6 do in comparison tests and the marketplace when introduced. The Malibu, while competent, has generally been in the mid to lower end of most comparison tests to date (how will it do in 6 years?) and the very good CTS, while a deserved commercial success, generally also falls in the mid to lower end of comparison tests.
Listen... I want the US makers to be the new "standards of the world." The reality is they are facing a competitive market and have a prestige, perception, and residual value gap with the public that they helped create (by GM's own admission in recent commercials apologizing). They're going to have to do what Toyota, Honda, etc. did long ago: not just be "good enough" and match the competition, but *beat them* and that means shorter production cycles on cars that currently aren't acknowledged as best in class...
- Bret
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=04677767
The Camry's interior may be boring, but it uses very high quality materials, is well constructed, and highly ergonomic.
As far as I am concerned, Edmunds.com is not an automotive testing authority. I put little faith in their vehicle reviews (which often seem frought with factual errors) or comparison tests. When they pick up the game and start really showing themselves along the lines of the better publications, thats when I'll take them seriously.
~alpha
Saturn is going to fill the "import/VW intender" class which currently Chevy is too, well, basic (crude?) to compete for and Pontiac is too brashly American (not a bad thing). Buick won't fit for the above reasons. I think Saturn building *faithful* American versions of European Opels can be quite successful. I think the Vectra, Tigra, Astra, et al would be fantastic and successful fits for Saturn and competitive against VW.
Alpha01: I'm sorry you don't like Edmunds. I think they're fantastic, and frankly, it doesn't matter. Whereever you look (Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, Automobile, Motor Trend, Canadian Driver, whatever your "trusted" source), outstanding older designs like the Passat, 3-series, Miata, Jetta, Corvette, Dakota, etc. are all still praised and wind up at the top of comparison tests.
My point is really simple. Even outside of product cycles, you have to build world-beating products that everyone for the most part agrees are world beating, as you just pointed out about the Camry. If this LaCrosse and the next two are clearly top-draw products above their competitors, Buick will be able to enjoy the kind of kudos, prestige, and residual values that Toyota now basks in.
- Bret
until two years ago, VW offered a 2-year warranty on all their vehicles. wow. 2 whole years. VW must have a lot of faith in their product.
to be fair, they recently extended part of their warranty to 4 years, but car magazines and automotive sites like edmunds often receive brand new cars direct from the manufacturer, without having to deal with the life of the vehicle. in my opinion, VWs have a pretty lousy record as far as customer satisfaction goes, regardless of what the so-called "experts" say. they are attractive-looking though.
our buick le sabre, on the other hand, has been a reliable and comfortable stalwart in our family garage. it has met and exceeded our expectations, and the service staff are not at all surly or difficult. i think that bodes well for buick as an automotive brand that people can trust and enjoy. and no, i don't work for buick :P
I agree with almost *everything* you write, but I believe you and many others aren't getting my underlying point. I know VW's have terrible reliability and Buick is strong in this regard. That's one of the reasons I didn't buy an Audi recently. But guess what?
The public still wants, *desires* even, VW's!! Even people who know the reliability record take a chance since they aspire so much to own the car. I was talking with a co-worker of mine (an amazingly smart guy) who just bought a new Jetta TDI. I was talking about the reliability issue with him and he virtually said, "I have a hard time believing those reports when I look at the body or feel how solid and well built my car feels." I have two friends who own Jettas and have fallen head over heals for them, viewing them almost as fashion accessories despite them not being extremely reliable. One is buying a sister a New Beatle and the other is almost morally committed to getting a new Passat. As in interpersonal relationships, love can be blind, and VW is building cars people emotionally bond with and love.
Bringing this back to Buick and the LaCrosse, frankly, building cars that are "reliable and comfortable stalwarts" alone *hasn't* boded well for Buick. Their sales are down badly despite them having done this for 20 years. They need cars that people want and desire and love. The market is just too competitive now. I think the LaCrosse is a really good start, but they need to go further and do more. Lutz knows it and Buick hopefully knows it. That's why Lutz held the car back 11 months to improve it. I think it'll do well.
- Bret
PS: Before anyone mentions how the Toyota and the Camry does well by just being a reliable appliance, notice that Toyota has recognized this as a problem now and is swinging into action for the future. They want those Passat buyers too.
I see a lot of potential for buick right now, but they are definitely not considered hip or trendy right now. but things can turn around quickly when someone is determined to make changes, and I can see Buick responding a lot faster than VW in this regard. Buick has more resources at their disposal than VW, and more manpower too. I also think Buick under Bob Lutz's leadership is more determined than VW because they have more to prove.
Cadillac was in this very same position a few years back, and now are seen by young kids as being relatively cool cars, even the big seville STS has attracted teens and lowriders. Some of this again has to do with positive potrayals and product placements in the proper scenes--a cadillac CTS was used in a major chase scene in the hugely popular film "The Matrix", and guess what? It's become a sweet ride for a new contingent of car enthusiasts and buyers.
VW does not appear to be addressing their own problems because I believe they are complacent in their public brand awareness, ignoring the growing whispers about their horrendous quality control, abysmal reliability ratings, and scary customer service.
"Class leading" my foot, a 1999 (first year) VW Jetta did poorly in a Car & Driver comparison test and has not won any others since. Look it up.
Also, their quality is definitely "class leading" as in "leads in defects".
BTW: The new generation 2005 Golf is selling poorly in Europe, and VW is losing profits/sales here, too. Hardly "class leading".