Buick LaCrosse

rerenov8r · July 2004

Buick can't afford to chase ANYONE away -- they need something that will make even SLIGHTY younger buyers check out the LaCrosse. I think TECHNOLOGY & INTERIOR FEATURES are one way to do that.

If you look only at exterior style there is little to attract one to Lexus. The "little things" that make a vehicle very comforting/compelling on a day-to-day basis SHOULD be on the Buick 'hot list' of things to add.

bporter1 · July 2004

I currently own a 99 Regal GSE, and in a few years will be looking to replace it. The LaCrosse is on my short list of midsize cars. Why is ABS an option and not standard? If I buy a Chevy Cobalt ABS is standard on the LS and LT models, which are still thousands cheaper than a CX LaCrosse will be. It is stuff like that, that makes me think GM and Buick don't care to "get it". Other than this minor deviation, I think the LaCrosse warrants a look see.

yurakm · July 2004

The same with me.

Comparing 2000 Regal GS vs. 2005 LaCrosse CXS:

- Radio/sound: MP3 will be available at last. The current 6 speakers is OK with me, but 9 will be nice, if not too expensive. Remote control on steering wheel was standard in 2000, will be optional in 2005. Satellite radio: not available in 200, optional for 2005. I do not need it at all.

- Driver information center adds compass in 2005. Nice to have, but would not miss it.

- Airbags: driver side was standard in 2000, will be optional in 2005. Passenger side airbags: were not available in 2000, will be available in 2005. Important safety improvement.

- Auto dimming mirrors, inside and left outside were standard in 2000. In 2005 the inside auto-dimming will be optional, while the driver-side auto-dimming will not be available even as option. Substantial change for the worse in safety department.

- Reading rear light was standard in 2000, will be optional in 2005. However, this is not important at all to me.

- OnStar was optional in 2000, will be bundled in 2005. Delete option not available for this trim. I do not like it so much that rather would remove or disconnect from power, if it is technically possible.

- Personalization through FOB. Radio settings, etc. Standard for 2005, not available for 2000. Nice to have feature. No personalization for driver seat/mirror adjustment, though. Fortunately, my wife and I do not need adjustment, except the inside mirror.

- Remote starting: was not available in 2000 (only aftermarket), optional in 2005. This is a nice feature in our climate.

- Rear parking assist. Not available for 2000 (except aftermarket), optional for 2005. Looks as a nice safety feature.

- Power driver lumbar: standard for 2005. Nice new feature.

- Temperature control on steering wheel optional for 2005. Nice new feature, especially given inconvenient buttons.

- Telescoping steering column. Not available in 2000, standard in 2005. Nice feature.

- Universal transmitter. Aftermarket only in 2000, optional for 2005. Do not need it at all.

- Chrome. For 2005 chrome door handles standard, optional chrome moldings, etc. Do not like it.

- Heated mirrors. Standard for 2000, optional for 2005.

- Wheels (and tires). 16" for 2000, 17" for 2005. I guess, it will improve handling in summer a bit, but worsening comfort and will worsening driveability in snow.

- Exhaust. Single for 2000, dual for 2005. I guess, it will cost $500 or more, and will not influence anything but appearance.

- StabiliTrack. Not available for 2000, optional for 2005. Great safety feature.

- Suspension. Looks like it is more sporty for 2005.

- Noise reducing. Was OK for 2000, looks as even better for 2005.

- Powertrain. 240 hp / 280 lb-ft torque for 2000, 240 hp / 233 ln-ft torque for 2005. Substantially reduced torque, none gain in power, vs. a bit better fuel economy, less expensive gas, and "more refined engine" whatever it means.

- Until year 2000 Regal had a performance shift mode. The nice feature was deleted in 2001, and still is not available in 2005.

In two years our son will turn 16, and we will need a third car. My wife and I were almost sure we will buy a Buick Regal / LaCrosse. We accumulated $2000 on our GM card toward the purchase. However, after learning better, we have very serious doubts concerning LaCrosse. It looks as a used Regal will serve us better.

Currently we have a 2000 Buick Regal GS and 98 Chevrolet Malibu. We are using Malibu mostly in town, like driving our son to school and buying groceries, and I am driving it to work. We are using Regal for most of longer, highway trips, and my wife is driving it to work.

We like our Regal very much. We especially like the power available for passing, and comfortable seats for long cruises. Looks as LaCrosse CXS will not be competitive vs. many modern cars, at least in power department.

The only serious shortcoming of Regal are air vents. Impossible to point airflow on driver's face, and hard to point it away from hands. It makes it somewhat uncomfortable to drive in summer heat, especially on trips longer than 1.5 hours. Need to wear long-sleeve shirt. Hard to be sure, but on pictures it looks as LaCrosse was not improved in this relation.

It is a bit unsafe to manage Regal radio and a/c when driving. A lot of buttons, which looks and feel alike. The driver needs to look on the buttons, not on the road. According to the picture, it will be the same with LaCrosse.

bporter1 · July 2004

I wholeheartedly agree with what you mentioned in the above post. Some things that will be available on the LaCrosse are nice but other things that are optional or not available, were standard or optional on the earlier Regal's. Maybe in a couple of years when I will be in the market for a new car, the LaCrosse will be in a better position to compete for my dollars.

johnclineii · July 2004

GM did this same decontenting with the Impala. I own a 2000 LS with 164,000+ miles.

Little things like taking off the lit PRNDL indicator and deleting change holders make me wonder what they did to the important stuff I CAN'T see--as in durability.

I am almost certain I shall be buying a Ford Five Hundred when they come out. I sometimes lapse into thinking I might consider a GM product, and the ONLY that even remotely interested me was the LaCrosse.

Thanks, yurakm, for a great post and one that reminded me that I really don't need to be considering it. It will make my life easier and more sedate as I order a Five Hundred or Mercury Montego.

I WANT to drive a GM. I do NOT want their cheap decontenting tricks, or to play the HUGE price, HUGE incentive game any more.

I'm not naive enough to think Ford does not do the same thing (look at the changes they have made in the Vic/GM in recent years), but it doesn't seem to be to the same degree.

And the Avalon (and Lexi) bores me...I loved my old Maxima back in 92, but the new one is not a style I want to be seen in! The Altima would be fine but for its interior.

alpha01 · July 2004

What exactly are the feature/dynamic advantages that you feel the Five Hundred will have over the LaCrosse?

~alpha

johnclineii · July 2004

We can start with AWD. NOT available on the LaCrosse, but OTOH, the Buick will have stability control available, right?

I also suspect there will be at least a five thousand dollar cost difference in favor of the Ford when comparably equipped.

The Buick is available with a much larger and more powerful engine, the Ford has a much larger back seat and trunk.

And from what I have seen so far, the interior of the Ford is far superior to that of the LaCrosse.

A test drive will confirm (or change) most of this. For the Ford, that will be August 14 for me. For the Buick, I have no idea when.

Lastly, the Ford dealers in my area are FAR superior in both sales and service to the very few Buick dealers hereabouts.

alpha01 · July 2004

"I also suspect there will be at least a five thousand dollar cost difference in favor of the Ford when comparably equipped."

What is that based on? Some kind of press release? If so, valid point, if not, well.. it would seem you're making things up.

"And from what I have seen so far, the interior of the Ford is far superior to that of the LaCrosse." Thats only based on pictures, and subject to interpretation; they look similar in materials quality and I prefer the arrangement/design of the LaCrosse.

Personally, I would never buy one car over another based on dealership treatment (Id rather have the car I feel best for my money, regardless), but if Ford's treatment is a plus for you, I can accept that.

~alpha

johnclineii · July 2004

I have SEEN, in person, the interior of the Ford Five Hundred. It was far superior to the pictures of the LaCrosse I have seen.

The pricing info is from news articles in the media, including Automotive News. Buick is aiming at Lexus, they say so themselves.

Regardless, pricing for either car has not been publicly released, nor possibly even totally determined....

Also, the service reputations of the Ford vs. Buick dealers in my area are well known. There is at least one reason that Ford far outsells GM in this area. Service is probably near the top of that list.

bporter1 · July 2004

As far as decontenting is concerned, the Japanese have been doing it for years, but they don't skimp on safety features. That was my only arguement. If GM wants to be a leader in sales then they have to act like it, and stop putting out product that is just "good enough" and not better than the competition in the first place.

mbukukanyau · July 2004

The radio on the 500 is from the Ford parts bin. Not my cup of tea

rctennis3811 · July 2004

"The radio on the 500 is from the Ford parts bin. Not my cup of tea"

Hmm...now why would they do that? Maybe because it's a Ford???

exalteddragon1 · August 2004

The Radio on the Montego is better, like Alpine perhaps?

yurakm · August 2004

It came to my mind today, that it is better comparison, than comparing LaCrosse with Century/Regal. Let us compare 99 Intrigue with 2005 LaCrosse.

Three trim with similar names:

base: LaCrosse CX vs. Intrigue GX;
both have 200hp 3.8l engine; cloth seats, etc.

better: LaCrosse CXL vs. Intrigue GL;
200hp 3.8l engine, fog lamps, upgraded seats, mirrors, etc.

top: LaCrosse CXS vs. Intrigue GLS:
240hp 3.6l variable timing DOHC vs. 215hp 3.5l DOHC. Leather, optional StabiliTrack.

In other words, the two mass-market trims of LaCrosse will have the same engine and transmission that the now defunct Intrigue had 6-7 years earlier, and dropped in year 2000. The top of the line trim gained 25hp in 6 years.

Olds switched to the 215hp 3.5l engine in all 3 trims during the model year 1999.

Electronics was improved during since 1998-2000. CD player replaced cassette, more speakers are available for LaCrosse, and even MP3 is optionally available for the top trim. Additionally, GM promise that Buick cabin will be less noisy.

I do not want to say, that LaCrosse will be a bad car. Rather the older cars it replaces, Intrigue and Regal, are very good. So good, that it is not easy to improve them substantially. However, no gain and even loss in power/torque in 5-8 years, depending on trim, is inexcusable in my mind.

desertrat5 · August 2004

The 3.8 is old but still an appropriate engine. It generates 205 hp and good low end torque all on regular gasoline while delivering 30+ mpg. Yes, it is a push rod design - but so is the Corvette engine that is blowing the socks off of everything else. As push rod engine it is narrower so it will fit in tighter confines that a wide DOHC engine. It is cheaper to build (~$800 per engine). And the fact that it produces such good low end torque means that the final drive ratio can be lower numerically thus keeping the engine rpm at cruising speed low (~2000 rpm) and hence great highway mileage. In contrast, look at the new Bonneville GXP with the Northstar. Much higher numerical final drive ratio to compensate for less low end torque and it is lucky to get 25mpg and on premium. And the auto writers complain that it still doesn't come off the line fast enough. Bottom line, the push rod engine has lots of life remaining but car buyers have been conditioned to believe that newer is always better. Sometimes it is, but not always.

yurakm · August 2004

According to GM, the two LaCrosse engines will provide very close maximal torque. Unfortunately, only maximal ones are available. GM stopped to put the torque curve on Internet, or at least I cannot find it anymore.

Let try to estimate. At low RPM, the air flow is not a limiting factor, and the low end torque mostly depends on displacement. 3.6l is rather close to 3.8l, about 5% difference. So the low end torque had to be close too. I'd guess, the difference in torque will be less than the 5%, due to variable timing.

Comparison with supercharged 3.8 will be a different story. The 3.6 must have much lower torque after about 2000 RPM, when supercharger engages. LaCrosse will compensate the lack of torque by higher RPM at given speed, with more aggressive final gear ratio. Is it good enough to be equal to 1997 Regal GS? I am not sure. Zero gain in power in 8 years.

However, I believe that overhead cams are more progressive technically than pushrods. Just hard to compete with really great implementation of older technology.

yurakm · August 2004

Supercharged?

jj347 · August 2004

The 3.6L DOHC VVT is not supercharged

bigdaddycoats · August 2004

CX $22,835
CXL $25,335
CXS $28,335

mrrogers · August 2004

Thanks for the MSRP pricing. Any idea when the invoice pricing and option pricing will be available?

dan165 · August 2004

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/040826-1.htm

C$25200 for a 3.8 CX is about US$19000. Canada gets a better deal on the Allure. I was shocked how low they priced it.

minnguy34 · August 2004

Cars.com has the option and invoice pricing for the 2005 Buick LaCrosse up on their web site.

It is interesting how Canada will get better deals on some GM cars. I was tempted to try and get a Canadian Cadillac CTS, it was several thousand cheaper. I thought I would have to change out the speedo for a mph one. I then bought a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix and discovered that you can change between kph and mph on the computer, no physical changed needed. Turned out the CTS used the same system. The LaCrosse has the same speedometer as the Grand Prix.

mitchflorida · August 2004

Buick wants to move upscale, shedding its fuddy-duddy image to appeal to buyers who want a powerful, quiet, elegant, expertly crafted, and luxurious car priced under $30,000. In fact, Buick spokespeople have openly discussed their intention to take on Lexus head-to-head in the future. Serving as the first volley on this front is the 2005 Buick LaCrosse, an upscale midsize sedan that replaces the Century and Regal. Whether or not theyve put the ball over the net remains to be seen.

Upon first inspection, the 2005 Buick LaCrosse is clearly a better vehicle than the Century or the Regal. However, we wonder how serious Buick can be about achieving its ultimate goal of competing with Lexus when the standard LaCrosse is equipped with an old-tech engine configuration, a four- rather than five-speed automatic transmission, express-down functionality for only the drivers window and 16-inch steel wheels with composite wheelcovers. And get this: antilock brakes are standard only on the top trim level. On paper that sounds like a rental car special and nobody shopping a Lexus, let alone a Volkswagen Passat, wants a rental car special sitting in the driveway.

ehaase · August 2004

The 2007 Buick RWD sedan on the Zeta platform will be the car that saves Buick. I have read that neither the LaCrosse nor the Lucerne (2006 LeSabre replacement) are anything special. If the RWD Buick sedan is a disappointment, then I think that Buick's future is in danger.

bporter1 · August 2004

I agree with you. If Buick does want to compete with Lexus then they better get their act together. What you mentioned above in your post is right on. I currently own a Regal GSE, and I am not the typical Buick buyer. I am 33 years old and I bought the car in 1999 when I was 28.
I don't think the LaCrosse will be on my list of cars when I start looking in a couple of years for the very reasons you stated, like ABS not standard across the board, only a four speed auto, and other things. It is a sad day at Buick when you can get a new Chevy Cobalt with ABS standard but it is an option on a Buick. Get real, Toyota/ Lexus is not even going to be worried about these new cars from Buick. Until someone at GM sees the light nothing is going to happen. At least Cadillac is starting to "get it".

minnguy34 · August 2004

I ran numbers on a Ford 500 SE with the safety option (side impact air bags, canapy airbags, heated rearview mirrors), it was $23,590 list $21,658 dealer cost. The Buick LaCrosse CX with aluminum wheels, anti-lock brakes and the side impact airbags was $24,840 list, $22,751 dealer cost. The Ford has 17" alum. wheels instead of 16", a 21 cu. ft. trunk, a CVT transmission and 203 horsepower. Unless the Buick does bigger rebates, the Ford looks like the better deal. (And I am a GM fan.)

mrrogers · September 2004

Mrs. Rogers and I are looking to replace her 1998 Regal LS with 99K miles. She is interested in both the LaCrosse and the Lexus ES330. Some people bad mouth the Buick for only having a four speed transaxle vs the Lexus five speed. If you look on the Edmunds Lexus ES330 board, there is a whole area devoted to transmission problems with the 2002 through 2005 Lexus ES five speed. I think a smooth four speed is preferable to an indecisive five speed. The Lexus dual overhead cams only yield about one mpg (29 vs 28 highway) over the Buick overhead valve design. To the best of my knowledge, Buick has never had the sludge problems that Lexus has had with their V-6. The LaCrosse is based on a Century, but the ES330 is based on a Camry so I don't see a big difference. The invoice of the CXL that my wife likes is only $25,346. The Lexus she likes has an invoice of $28,755. I am not sure that the Lexus is worth the extra money. Maybe a twenty four hour test drive of both cars will help us make a decision.

austinman7 · September 2004

Concerning the discussion of the LaCrosse having just a 4-speed transmission:

I'm a little confused about what constitutes a 4 or 5 speed transmission.

I owned a 1996 Regal, which was marketed as a 4-speed. It had 4 gears, then a torque-converter lockup position that gave it a fifth ratio -- you could feel it engage, and see the RPMs drop another 200 or so at 70 mph.

I now have an Accord, marketed as a 5-speed. But from what I have read, it's engineered the same as the Regal -- four gears, followed by a fifth "position," i.e., torque-converter lockup.

Two cars, two transmissions, both operating the same way, with one marketed as a four-speed, the other a five-speed. If the Accord can be called a five-speed, why not the new LaCrosse? (Assuming it will have four gears and a lockup position like the current Regal)

jpstax1 · September 2004

I found a link that describes the Zeta platform in detail:

http://www.editorial.discountnewcars.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/sto- - - - - - ry2/C90B23606C59F9C6CA256E45001580AB

It looks promising. If Bob Lutz gives it his full support, and can convince GM's top brass, it just might work. The idea worked for the bringing back the GTO, so why not for saving Buick from the same fate as Oldsmobile? I'm sure Buick fans would be very angry if that were to happen.

bporter1 · September 2004

The new Zeta platform sounds real cool. Buick needs a RWD car(s). I hope all these ideas come to fruition, but if they do, I don't have much faith in GM being able to properly execute a good car.

rctennis3811 · September 2004

Can't wait for the Lucerne - let's just hope it doesn't look like the LaCrosse! Buick really seems to be going through an identity crisis. :-\

setzer · September 2004

" Can't wait for the Lucerne - let's just hope it doesn't look like the LaCrosse! Buick really seems to be going through an identity crisis. :-\ "

Like Mercury was/is. Hopefully Buick can get its sales up so it doesn't slump down to Mercury's level and, even worse, Oldsmobiles level. But I'm guessing the future products Buick is offering will probably help it somewhat. Even the LaCrosse, even though it's not too groundbreaking, will get some buyers who want a comfortable American vehicle and could care less about all of the fancy features other cars have. I could see where this car would be perfect for my Grandparents who would probably want something simple they could use to drive to the store or their families' homes.

But only time will really tell what Buick's future will be like.

jzglinicki · September 2004

If your particular Accord has a 5-speed trans, then it has five different forward gear ratios. Torque converter lockup does not count as an additional ratio. Honda does have both 4 and 5-spd transaxles. But their 5-spd trans is not simply a 4-spd trans with a torque converter clutch. In fact, both their 4 and 5-spd boxes have clutches.

The torque converter clutch simply locks the converter's impeller (output from the engine) to its turbine (input to the trans). When the clutch is not engaged, the converter is a type of fluid coupling with the trans turning slower than the engine, even if only a little. Enging RPM drops a little when the torque converter clutch is engaged because the converter no longer is allowed to slip. There's now a direct physical connection.

Some transmissions may, in fact, lockup the torque converter in more than one gear! For instance, in a 4-speed trans, the torque converter clutch might be engaged in third gear in specific situations, as well as fourth. This still would be a 4-spd trans, not a 6-speed trans.

If I remember correctly, the Lacrosse is using GM's 4T60E transaxle, which has only four forward gears, and so is only a 4-spd trans. The Honda 5-spd, again, does indeed have five forward gears, not four.

Hope that helps.
Joe

bigdaddycoats · September 2004

I have seen a couple on the road. Two red and one in white opal. The white one looked very sharp. I am looking forward to driving one. They look better in person, but do not stand out much.

austinman7 · September 2004

Thanks for your comments. I already understood the technology of the fluid coupling in the torque converter and the lockup clutch mechanism, but your description was interesting nonetheless.

However, my question about the Accord transmission remains unanswered. I talked with a technician at my dealership today and he couldn't answer the question. He faxed me a transmission system description, which references 5 "speeds" forward and a lockup mechanism. It's also a very complicated document.

Anyway, this is not a forum about Accords, but about the new LaCrosse!

I thought this thread had died. Almost two weeks went by between recent messages.

Does anyone know when LaCrosses will be available at dealerships? I liked my '96 Regal and may migrate back to Buick if this new one is a decent car.

dan165 · September 2004

I think the La Crosses are being built now. I have heard of sitings in the Toronto area (near the Oshawa plant).

alpha01 · September 2004

Every car Ive seen in advertising/marketing materials for the LaCrosse has been black, which I personally think looks great.

~alpha

mrrogers · September 2004

I called my local dealer Saturday asking when the new LaCrosse will be available. The salesman told me late October or early November. He did not even ask for my name or phone number.
I called a second dealer, and was told that they would have one in the first week of October, but it is already sold. I asked when I could have one for a 24 hour test drive, and he said it may be months as this is such a hot car right now. Does this make sense? If it is such a hot car, do you think the dealers will be able to get full sticker for the car? He told me that the 2005 Century will be built for five more months, and that this is limiting LaCrosse production. Do you think that there will be discounts by year end?

johnclineii · September 2004

Hot car? Find another dealer. 99.999 percent of the American public (or more) hasn't even HEARD of the car. What a nutcase!

Dealers don't discount new models until they find out if they can get full sticker (or more) for them first. It is, after all, a business.

307web · September 2004

Most people do not know that the car exists, so it is not "hot."
However, the fact that you are asking them about it before it has been released or advertised on tv indicates to them that you may be desperate to have it and will pay premium to get one of the first available.

jchan2 · September 2004

I doubt it that this is a "hot car"

Kirstie_H · September 2004

This discussion will move to the Sedans board this week.

dan165 · September 2004

I can't imagine the Lacrosse being a "hot" vehicle but they may sell some with few incentives in the first few months.

bigdaddycoats · September 2004

I do not think this is hot vehicle. However, it looks much better in person than I thought. Even though I have no intention of getting a new car for a couple of years, I am looking forward to driving a LaCrosse.

austinman7 · September 2004

Will it still be accessible through "Buick" from the main menu of car names?

Kirstie_H · September 2004

Yup! Basically, you won't be affected unless you use the "browse by message board" feature. It'll stay in subscriptions if you're subscribed, and will show up in a search the same way. Oh, and you'll have a change of hosts - pat hosts discussions about sedans.

austinman7 · September 2004

Thanks.

walter1 · September 2004

There seems to be quite a bit of difference in pricing of the Allure and LaCrosse. The CXL Allure in Canadian Dollars is 27,865 converted to US is 2l,642. The LaCrosse in US dollars is 25,335. A considerable difference to just drive over the border to get one, unless the US will carry some rebates or incentives.

johnclineii · September 2004

You can drive over the border and get what you want, but getting the car registered and warranty service will be HUGE issues. The Canadian vehicle and the US vehicle are NOT identical, and meet different specs for more things than you might think, starting with emissions...

bigdaddycoats · October 2004

Got the brochure in the mail - it looks very nice. The more I see this car the more I like it.

November issue of Motor Trend has a "hot drive" article on the LaCrosse. I have not got my issue yet so I do not know what it says.

Buick LaCrosse

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