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2005 Passat

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Comments

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I have been one of the soldiers marching to the beat that proclaims VW is moving "up market."

    I have also stressed, to define the point, the VW company line as I have read it in many magazines from both sides of the Atlantic and on several web sites.

    The VW blueprint seems to be to "offer 90% - 95% of Mercedes content (generally PLUS all wheel drive) at 80% - 85% of the price.

    This IS NOT inconsistent with sub $20,000 cars from VW.
    First, this master plan does not suggest that -- in the US for example -- that VW will only have available cars that compete with Mercedes on a model by model basis. If there is NO US Mercedes sold for $20,000 it does not automatically translate to the end of $16,000 VW's in this market.

    And, even if that were the case, there certainly will be a transistion period of several model years.

    On the other hand, Mercedes over the past years has been bringing lower priced cars to market (some in the US market, some not). The "C" class for example when run through the VW master plan will yield an "equivalent" C class VW at 80% of Mercedes price.

    Even Audi is going to bring the A3 to our market and all of these German manufacturers offer lower (down market) models and configurations.

    The master plan as it has been written about is NOT a US only plan.

    I can't quote chapter and verse the Mercedes global line up -- but it is possible with some time on the web to find Mercedes that when discounted 20% will produce price points within VW's targets and within a range that approximates the current price scheme.

    Over time -- 5 years perhaps? -- VW overall expects to move up market and up price. Will VW ultimately "start" their bottom prices over $20,000 (adjusted for inflation and exhange rates)? Beats me.

    My interpretation of the articles written is for VW to create "S" class competitive products -- they are already doing that with the Phaeton. There will be supposedly a car in-between the Passat and Phaeton (a sort-of "E" class?). And there will be some more sporting cars (some already shown as concept cars) brought to market.

    The V10 diesel Tourareg could easily top $60,000, too.

    So, "we're all correct." The average price of VW's is heading north -- but there is at least circumstantial evidence that this is more from additions to the top end, rather than subtractions from the bottom end.

    Many here believe this move up market will fail miserably. I am not one of those, but I am in the "we'll see" camp.

    The other area is the divergence of VW and Audi much more so than has been the case historically. Despite the Phaeton's stated target (Mercedes) and Audi's target (BMW), the current generation of VW and Audi do seem to share much.

    Between now and calendar 2005 and model year 2007 there is "supposed" to be a more rapidly developing Audi and VW identity as "separate" cars, aimed at disparate buyers.

    Again, we'll see.

    Don't fret, for the time being, that there will be no VW's under $30K -- even if this happens, it will not happen overnight.
  • pnwpinheadpnwpinhead Member Posts: 1
    Can anyone verify if the new Passat wagon TDI will come with an AWD/4 motion option?
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    No, the only configuration for this go-around in the US market will be sedan/wagon with Tiptronic in FWD.

    When the redesigned car ['06 model] finally arrives here, then I wouldn't be surprised to see more variety. Given the short life left on the current body, it seems VWoA decided to certify only the one drivetrain combination for now.
  • avenger1avenger1 Member Posts: 90
    Well, VW wanted to go upscale, blah blah. Unfortunately, by focusing all their attention on bringing out vehicles that thumb their noses at the very audience they built through building the "peoples car", they neglected the area that brings them profits (high volume).

    Hopefully this will be a wakeup call to VW and second think the "upscale" move and focus on bridging the gaps they created....Hey VW, get working on the Sfero, and quickly!

    See article below:

    Volkswagen's U.S. strategy of maintaining high residual values while avoiding generous incentives is coming unglued.

    The German automaker this month sharply increased incentives to $2,000 per vehicle after suffering a disastrous 25.9 percent U.S. sales decline in January.

    VW had sharply reduced incentives that month to what Edmunds.com estimates was $420 per vehicle - down from about $1,100 in 2003 - to stem sliding profits. But the automaker reversed course after dealers demanded action last month and Volkswagen of America Inc. President Gerd Klauss lobbied corporate parent Volkswagen AG for help.

    "The programs in January and February were absolutely 100 percent uncompetitive," says Al Gossett of Gossett Motor Cars, a multibrand dealer in Memphis, Tenn. "We had nothing to talk about with customers. We didn't have anything to advertise."

    VW on March 2 began offering:

    >>> Lower lease payments on Jettas and Passats

    >>> 0.9 percent financing for a broader range of models

    >>> 1.9 percent financing for certified used cars

    >>> $500 loyalty coupons to current owners and lessees

    >>> Cash bonuses for dealers who meet sales goals.

    The program runs through April.

    Volkswagen of America is pouring on the incentives even as Volkswagen AG struggles to cut $2.5 billion in costs. The automaker is reducing capital spending and will eliminate 5,000 jobs by 2005.

    The company announced the cost-cutting plan after disclosing that its first-quarter earnings would be miserable.

    Even with the new incentives, dealers and company executives concede that 2004 will be a tough year. Volkswagen of America hopes to sell 300,000 units, down from 302,686 last year and 355,648 in 2001.

    The problem is product. High-volume products such as the Jetta, Golf and Passat are almost 7 years old. VW won't introduce redesigned versions until 2005. So Volkswagen of America has launched its most costly incentives package since it began rebuilding its brand image a decade ago.

    VW's U.S. sales began to drop in mid-2002 after reaching a 28-year high in 2001. But this year's plunge horrified dealers, and they demanded action at last month's National Automobile Dealers Association convention in Las Vegas.

    The automaker responded. Leases account for about 40 percent of VW dealer sales, and VW has sweetened lease deals to promote the Jetta and Passat. Consumers can obtain a 39-month lease for a Passat GL for $219 a month. A Jetta GL is available for $179 a month.

    Dealers say the new incentives already are helping sales. "This past weekend we had our best weekend probably in the last six months," says Eddie Lee of Lewisville Volkswagen, north of Dallas. "I can't imagine a dealer not being satisfied with what they put out there right now."

    Lee likes the lower finance rate for certified used cars. "VW gave us nearly new-car rates on pre-owned cars, which makes a huge difference," he says. "Our used-car business has increased dramatically over last year."

    Lee added that he is examining his operation with an eye to cutting costs, and is counting on other profit centers such as parts and service to weather the sales slump. "That's how we're surviving," Lee said.

    But dealers didn't get everything they wanted. VW refused to accelerate the U.S. introductions of the redesigned Jetta and Passat, scheduled for 2005. VW plans to launch the Passat in Germany this year.

    Some dealers accept VW's decision. Gene Langan, chairman of the VW national dealer council, says the slower launch will ensure vehicle quality.

    "I think it's paramount that we launch these new products right," Langan says. "I would rather us do it right than bring them ahead three or four months and not be ready. Let's make sure we're ready - the quality's there, we have an adequate parts supply and we have a good mix of cars at launch."

    Dealers say sales appear to be stabilizing. But VW's new incentives carry risks. Previously, the automaker had avoided the unrestrained price wars triggered by the Big 3.

    Last year VW's incentives averaged $1,103 per vehicle, according to Edmunds.com, a consumer information service in Santa Monica, Calif. That was lower than the average of $1,648 for European automakers and substantially lower than the industry average of $2,426 per vehicle.

    By sacrificing some sales, VW maintained some of the industry's highest residual values. Among high-volume brands, VW's residual values are second only to Honda and Toyota.

    Residual values are calculated by subtracting the estimated resale value of a vehicle at the end of its lease from its original list price. Automakers and banks use this calculation when they set lease rates for new vehicles.

    Residual values are affected immediately when an automaker offers big cash rebates, says Jeremy Anwyl, Edmunds.com president.

    While VW has not resorted to big cash rebates, the company is starting to compete on price. Says Anwyl: "If you throw a thousand dollars on a car you will see an impact on residual values - particularly on 2-, 3- and 4-year-old vehicles - almost immediately."

    VW's troubles are beginning to soften the market value of its dealerships. Overall, blue-sky values for VW stores are declining at a time when other franchises are enjoying increases.

    Blue sky is the price of a dealership beyond the value of physical assets. Typically it is the value of intangible assets such as location, franchise strength, reputation, customer base and profit potential.

    Sheldon Sandler, founder of Bel Air Partners, an investment firm servicing dealerships in Princeton, N.J., says blue-sky values of VW dealerships have slipped to three times pre-tax earnings, down from four times earnings before sales started to slide.

    Even if sales recover, a VW dealership is not likely to command the blue-sky valuations of a Toyota, Honda, or BMW franchise, Sandler says. "But I'd still like to be a Volkswagen dealer," he adds. "They still make money."

    Source: Auto Week
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    What does this have to do with the 2005 Passat? Specifically?
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    Not much....don't know why it was posted here.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds like dealers sorely need new product.

    -juice
  • avenger1avenger1 Member Posts: 90
    the new releases by VW (including PASSAT) will move upscale in terms of pricing. Previous posts by others and myself, stated that the passat will leave behind the target audience they built in order to rebrand themselves as a "luxury" brand.

    Some of us argued that this move will hurt VW, and my post is an example that VW is neglecting it's base to shoot for a goal overnight that most people will not accept right away.

    I say, what's wrong with the passat competing with the camery/accord/etc? Why the need to move upscale so quickly (other that easy profits)?

    any comments?
  • avenger1avenger1 Member Posts: 90
    welcome the the chat....
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    The article you posted had more to do with current sales, current models, current incentives, and VW's current dilemma than it did with what VW is doing in 2005 to help the situation.
  • machaanmachaan Member Posts: 30
    My VW dealer was begging me to take home a Passat $1000 below invoice. I suspect the re-sale values will plumment soon becuase of
    1) well publicised coil-recalls
    2) new redesign around the corner
    3) Huge incentives which are only going to get bigger in the coming months
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, if you think the existing model is all sorted out by now, it might make for a good value purchase.

    -juice
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    It's been sorted out for awhile - Passat has been on CR's recommended list for some time now. I had a 2000 Passat that never gave me a single problem in 60,000 miles. Now I have an 03 Jetta diesel wagon that's carrying on the same tradition - 14k miles without a single issue. VW's are as or more reliable than a Honda or Toyota in my experience.
  • machaanmachaan Member Posts: 30
    Read the post "3 Week-old '04 Passat GLS Failed to Start" on "Volkswagen Passat Owners: Problems & Solutions"
    This completely unexcusable. They have been making the current model for the last 4 years. One would imagine they would have sorted out the bugs buy now. There are plenty on '02 complaining already.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Does the Passat W8 "sport" -- my personal choice for the best bang for the buck (in the Passat family) -- get the kind of push from VW and its dealers suggested in the last few pushes?

    And, is it true that the next gen Passat will no longer offer the W8, opting instead for a mildly turbo-charged 3.2 V6 which will provide great torque at sub 2K RPM's?

    And, if this IS true, is the reason not due to the W8's "badness" but more due to the packaging considerations of the W8 vs the V6 (under hood area is limited by the new Passat body, i.e.)?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    It's my understanding that the W8 takes no more space under the hood than a V6. I hear, never seen, that it's like a big box.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    A mechanic at my local VW dealer said that the W8 has had relatively frequent problems with oil seals leaking.
    Any W8 owners care to comment?
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    Owned one for a while.
    Very interesting vehicle.
    No problems with oil leaks.
    No significant problems aside from more depreciation than I'd hoped for - largely due to VWoA marketing efforts and support (or more precisely, the lack thereof) IMHO.
    - Ray
    Owned 2 VWs - '61 (classic?) Beetle and an '02 W8 . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    Not every car a manufacturer makes is perfect. I'm sure there are 02 Honda Accords and Toyota Camry's that have had starting problems. Passats have been on Consumer Reports recommended reliability list. Nothing is perfect, although my VW's are close.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Looks like most of the manufacturers are slipping a bit in the quality/reliability department - based on the NHTSA recall bulletins I've read in the past few weeks..
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The differences are small, usually just a fraction in terms of number of problems per car.

    Toyota had the sludge debacle and Honda had those trannies, 1% failure rate on several models, including Acuras. Both are now covering those, as VW is with the ignition coils.

    -juice
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    does not apply to Passat w/ Audi's 2.8 V6, per CR.

    So Audi's using the trouble-prone 3.0 V6 instead.

    Neither VW's 2.8 VR6 nor Audi's 1.8 turbo got away from this recall.

    VW engineers admitted that Audi's lighter V8 engine works better than the W8, but VW wants to show off some unique high-tech innovation.

    Having a longitudinally-mounted engine ahead of the front axle is foolish for FWD cars. It's not like you need such layout to set up AWD system easily. Even the next A4 is giving up & converting to RWD-design instead, like the 924. Why shouldn't the next Passat give up on Audi's configuration, especially now w/ the high-tech Focus-type rear suspension available? & this is why the W8 won't fit the transverse mount anyway.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Transverse engines would sit on top of the tranny, and have a high center of gravity. Plus the power makes a 90 degree turn.

    A longitudinal setup allows you to mount the engine lower, in front of the tranny instead of on top of it, and the crank is lined up nicely with the driveshafts.

    -juice
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    "Transverse engines would sit on top of the tranny, and have a high center of gravity."

    Where did you get that idea? It was the early '80's Tercel w/ the longitudinal setup that had the engine sit on top of the tranny, and have a high center of gravity. That's why the Tercel switched to transverse setup in the late '80's.

    "Plus the power makes a 90 degree turn."

    Yes, making a 90 degree turn wastes energy, but it is the longitudinal setup that does that when driving the front wheels. It is when the powertrain drives the rear wheels does the transverse setup make one more 90 degree turn than the longitudinal setup in addition to the rear-differential's 90 degree turn.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I got that idea when I crawled under my old 626 to change the tranny gear oil. What a mess under the hood.

    My Subaru is tidy and neat in comparison. Subaru packages the engine in front of a compact tranny, and still manages to get half of the engine behind the front axle.

    All half shafts in an AWD are gonna come in at an angle from the main driveshaft, but at least the rear driveshaft in a longitudinal setup can line up with the crank.

    -juice
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    There's no doubt w/ Subaru's short Beetle/Porsche-like 4-cyl(no inline), it sets longitudinally w/o that much front overhang.

    As a VW mechanic showed me a Jetta engine w/o transmission, the mounting port to the tranny is behind the block.

    I'm wondering how does the Volvo S80 squeeze the inline 6-cyl sideway w/ the tranny, but I'm sure Audi wouldn't dare to place an inline 6-cyl longitudinally. This is not the Vigor-style mid-mount.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True, the block is very short. Even their 3.0l H6 is only .5" longer than their 2.5l H4.

    But an in-line 4 would take up as much length as an H8 (if it existed, even Porsche uses a V8). A compact V6 should fit that way, though.

    -juice
  • fdannafdanna Member Posts: 263
    I just saw a picture in a car mag of the upcoming model (I think it was the latest road and track). Oh my god, it's beautiful! They say the W8 is going to be dropped. It's better looking than any bland accord or camry....
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    No W8, true, but it will have the 3.2FSI, which is frankly, a better choice.
  • zoomer1zoomer1 Member Posts: 42
    VW has:

    VW -- AUDI
       -- Porsche

    FORD (parts) -- Jaguar (parts) (LS - S-Type)
                                   (Mondeo - X-Type)
                    Volvo (parts)
    GM -- Cadillac
    Honda -- Acura
    GM -- Hummer

    If you believe that Jaguar, Volvo, and Mazda don't fit then Infiniti and Lexus have a done a good job of differentiating and their marketing is working
  • wstevecwstevec Member Posts: 126
    Does anyone know when the 2005 Passat will be released and if it will be a much needed redesign? Thanks
  • fish8fish8 Member Posts: 2,282
    I have read in many auto mags that the 2005 Passat will be released in the US in the Fall of 2005.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Based on your opinion and most other opinions on this board, it appears that there is a general feeling of resentment towards VW's strategy of moving up-market.
    I myself am a bit disappointed in VW. Why should the price of the upcoming Passat be much higher, when every other automaker can introduce new models with major upgrades without raising their price levels significantly( sometimes even selling at a lower price level i.e. Lexus RX330 vs. RX300). This form of VW arrogance can be quite self-destructive.
    The new VW Golf sales is suffering in Europe because of its high price as it will suffer when it will be introduced expensively in North America.
    With 20/20 vision I can predict with certainty that the new and more expensive Passat is going to get creamed by the competition worldwide. Just look at the future upcoming models that will be offered at the time the new Passat will be offered --the new Lexus IS330, the new BMW 2/3....and many others. The Passat wagon will get some interesting competition from the new Legacy GT(250 hp).

    Despite the above overwhelming price competition VW is facing, its Achille's Heel is company's incredibily low reliability record.
    Good luck to VW's future not only in North America but also in the rest of the Globe.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The Passat won't be a "new" design until at the 2006 model year in the U.S. The 2005 model will be the same as the car you see now, probably with some minor detail changes. The next new VW model here will be the next generation Jetta, due to be shown at the 2005 LA Auto Show and go on sale in May of 2005.

    M
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I've been wrong before, will be again, and may be now. But, I do not agree that the majority ("most") opinions about VW's strategy to move up market are negative.

    I say, bring it on, bring it on with all deliberate speed, make it so, make it so sooner rather than later. VW needs to do something and they are in the profit making biz. There IS room at the top, the middle and bottom are getting more and more crowded.

    This, in no way, mitigates the concern and apparent consensus that VW has had (and may still have) some quality issues, reliability issues and dealer competence issues.

    VW, IMO, has made a sagacious choice. They would die if they stayed the course. The Phaeton, Touareg and the in-between Passat and Phaeton cars are a good thing.

    BTW, as far as I can tell this is an evolutionary process. The Golf and Jetta and New Beetle are not going to simply and rapidly (poof!) vanish. And, the Passat (new for next year 2006) should be cranked up in price based on content, not just because. There will, according to the spy press, be a range of prices for VWs for several years to come (Passats included.)

    John Donne, I think, said, "nothing gold can stay. . ." The new VW's, following that analogy, will have to recast themselves in new gold or new platinum, for the current VW's gold (if that is a correct characterization) is tarnishing.

    VW -- crank it up, move it up, hit the elevator to the Penthouse Suite -- your customers and your profits will grow.

    That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The interiors are nice, but now they have high fixed costs and can't compete on price, so volume dropped. I wouldn't want to own VW stock right now.

    -juice
  • denissdeniss Member Posts: 5
    a VW will always be VW, and moving upmarket for them is not justifiable. They should be providing a good euro sedan affordably to the masses, as they are doing now. Departures from that strategy might send them packing back to stone age. I don't remember seeing so many Passats on the roads back in the early to mid- 90s.

    If I wanted to buy an upscale car, I'd buy an Audi, even though it's a bit slow. At least you're getting top-line build, save for the reliability ratings. If I wanted real excitement but could sacrifice the interior, I'd get a Saab 9-3 - this car is a blast. 3 Series is too small and too damn expensive for what it's got - I can't justify it. Benz is too expensive for too little, and it doesn't even have the on-the-dime BMW handling going for it. Volvo is too expensive for too mediocre. Infiniti G35 has less than secure handling without the AWD, and its interior still can't match the Audi. BMW X3 is a great car, but as most BMWs it suffers from the High Overpricing Syndrome.

    Now, if I was after the real power for your $$$, I could just get the brand new Dodge Magnum RT with the 5.7L V8 HEMI with 340 hp and 390 lb-ft torque and leave the whole pack of Euros behind in less than a minute. That thing only costs about $33,000 loaded, and its interior materials and build quality is absolutely stellar. BMW or Volvo quality interior on this car, ladies and gents.

    So, I am between Audi A4 1.8T Avant and Dodge Magnum RT. I'm not sure which will be the winner because I'm a sucker for manual trans and the Magnum doesn't have it.

    But I'd say, if VW Passat wants to maintain its popularity, it better try to catch up with Audi while not raising the prices, at least not very much.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    See how you like the Tiptronic first. With a big V8 the gear you're in just matters much less.

    -juice
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The tip lag in the Tiptronic is, well, prominent -- if you can stand it, you're better at being patient than I.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    2005 is essentially the same as 2004. Not much to discuss.
  • ghostbuster23ghostbuster23 Member Posts: 43
    I don't think VW will ever leave the Golf and Jetta behind. There's a reason every manuacturer has an entry in the compact segment: they want to introduce new buyers to their brand. This is true of all manufacturers, up to all but the most elite brands (you'll never get a $20000 Ferrari or Rolls.) If they move the Jetta and Golf up too, they'll introduce something else to take their place. It has nothing to do with VW's history, it's the way the car business works. You go from a Jetta to a Passat to an A4 to a Phaeton/A6.Touareg... nobody buys a Passat as their first car, especially if it moves up tp $30 000.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    VW North America needs bread and butter cars like the Jetta and the Passat that are priced reasonably(although at a premiume to the competition). The large number of VW dealerships can only survive with high volume sales. Once VW focuses too much on price hikes, the resulting lower sales would threaten the dealership base in North America. These dealerships need volume to justify their existence.

    There is nothing wrong for VW to have High Luxury Aspriations with the Phaeton, but it would be self-destructive to price Passats and Jettas at a luxury price. VW is not Porsche with limited and exclusive dealerships. VW existence is based on high volume sales and their management should not forget that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Tiptronic in the last Passat I drove was slow, yes, but some are excellent (Boxster, for instance).

    -juice
  • zoomer1zoomer1 Member Posts: 42
    Well...since you foretell it... according to the Wall Street Journal (last Wednesday I believe), VW is hemmoraging money BECAUSE of Pitchsreider's decision to move upscale. VW has had to write-off $700 million in investments due to the Phaeton not selling well and also because of the new Golf being a flop in Europe. Ford and GM combined with other European makers have eaten into VW's market share because the Golf is priced higher than the comparable Opels and some Japanese cars--up to $4000 more. To the point that, other publications claim, that VW may be facing some sever cash short falls to produce new lines AND at the SAME TIME reduce costs. We know what reducing costs did to some VWs here. VW rarely discounts cars and incentives are even less of a strategy to motivate its dealers. VW IS DOING BOTH in the USA for the first time in a while!

    Anytime you hit a price point where the car cost is over a certain percentage of your personal disposal income it becomes a gamble. In this case we are talking about a mass appeal car--not a small quantity luxury item. SO a millionaire can spend 2% of their personal disposable income on a $300000 car but someone who earns $50K or so may spend over 20% of their PD income on a car purchase. If the car maker moves that number to 30% of the PD income because of price increases it will disproportionaly affect their market share.

    Maybe VW can pull it off...my money is not on them. Lexus keeps its inventory and production to a number that is linked to their market analysis of individual's needs that have an annual income of between $100,000 to $200,000+ and so do other luxury makers...then again they are not selling PEOPLES CARS.

    You might be right because the bottom is getting crowded but then again I believe you are mostly not because the bottom IS getting better AND is holding their price while making bigger cars with more options....US individuals PD Income HAS NOT grown as much as some car prices have. That is why some I know will go get the 6, or the Sonata, or the Accord, or...but not the Passat or Jetta--the $3,000 to $4,000 in premium is no longer justified.

    I hope VW does get better and makes better cars but not by making only $40K to $60K cars...they will cease to exist in about 5 years if they do that. VW needs good solid cars at $15K, $20K, $25K, $30K, $35K before they can get beyond these numbers. Why do you think that Mercedes is COMING DOWN with A class and C class. BMW is introducing a 1 series and re-introduced a 323 (2.3l 4 banger), and Audi is considering its own less pricey than A4, and Jag has an X type. Because upmarket is limited, ALSO crowded, and requires a unique branding. VW has that with the AUDI and PORSCHE....
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    can result in Avalon(or even near Phaeton)-like interior room, & therefore justifies the higher price. Especially when the Phaeton will extinct soon, the next Passat, perhaps needs a new name, w/ Focus-suspension technology is taking the Phaeton's place as the flagship VW sedan. It might just be a superior car than the new A6, just like the A4 convertible might not be as good as the next VW Jetta/Passat convertible w/ retractable hard top.

    The made-in-Germany new Passat still sounds like a better value than the comparably priced made-in-Belgium new S40 w/ tiny rear seating room no better than the next Jetta.

    According to CR, the Passat w/ 2.8, which is free from the "coil recall", is more reliable than just about any other European car.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It was not Pitchsreider's decision to go upmarket. It was Piech's decision to build the Phaeton and Touareg. Pitchsreider just inherited those decisions/models when Ferdinand Piech left.

    Audi isn't linked corporately with Porsche either.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Its going to be a hard road ahead for VW. BMW is moving into their territory, Japan is upping the sport quotient, and nobody can out price South Korea. VW has made quite a few mistakes recently, in an environment with NO room for error.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    you need to be ahead in the ride/handling compromise if not in price.

    So far, AutoMotor und Sport TV from Germany admitted that the RX-8's weight-less front overhang allows the suspension to be tuned w/ an "unbelievably comfortable ride" while cornering competitively w/ the 3-series coupe.

    That's why the next A4 will abandon the Audi-style drivetrain layout & switch to a RWD platform (like the '77 924 designed by VW & badged as Audi in Europe?).

    A rebadged A8 w/ steel body is outright foolish! & VW expected the Phaeton to be competitive in real strength? Does VW think that all the people who'd pay $100k for a car are blind?

    VW finally did the right thing by making the Audi-style layout defunct on the efficient VW's, which are for customers who can't afford to be "wasteful", & even starting to adopt the RWD layout from Maserati for the upper-end models.

    RWD is no longer a real threat to safety after the ESP became a std feature on VW's.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I think Audi would take exception to the statement that they are moving to an RWD platform.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Peter,

    While I know that we're speaking of our opinions, mostly, I suspect that the VW Phaeton is NOT a rebadged Audi A8.

    And, although I understand and actually agree with some of what you're saying -- I think it still is too early to declare VW's move upmarket is a failure.

    Time will tell, and you may well be right -- then Piech's legacy will be known for sure. At this point, VW is in phase 1 of their move, in terms of the products that are out there for sale.
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