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Comments
-juice
Does anyone know if the seating is more like a Legacy vs. the WRX - I'm looking for more room than the WRX.
Also, there seems to be varying opinions on the HP - is that because they have not finished the specs on the US model?
mark
Front/rear curtain bags (and 5 star crash results all around)
Wider interior/exterior dimensions (the Outback is way too skinny)
Memory driver seat (2 settings)
Monochrome paint options (let's get out of the 90s color scheme)
Less body roll (maybe the 2003 spring design took care of that).
That's my list for me to buy another Outback next year. It is just way too competitive out there not to have these features at the 30K price mark...
Ralph
I'd rather not have that stuff and save $4 grand, but that's me.
-juice
The Subaru's are generally more optioned out at base. Use Edmunds and option out a Nissan or Toyota or Honda and then check the price and compare it to relatively equipped Subaru. IMHO Mazda is the only manufacture that has as good or better value for the perfomance dollar.
The value is there for Subaru even at 28-30K +
The performance and refinement will be there to justify the price even more with the update 2005 models.
Yes, the new Subaru might get here in just a few months but it will be another year or two before they're back to sub-invoice prices...
I think a well equipped Legacy should not cross over the $26K line. IIRC - Inexpensive and Built to Stay That Way.
Once again, the current pricing in my area from carsdirect is 19K for the SE wagon with auto and 20K for Accord EX with auto. With today's economy I don't expect things to change, even with the new model - if they do - good luck to Subaru. We're not talking about what goes into the car and its real value. We know that Subaru is more expensive to make, mainly due to Honda's economies of scale and the AWD system. Honda has worked decades to be able to charge premium for their cars and its better reputation is clearly visible in sales figures and residuals. Right now, I'm stuck in between the two and I wonder how many more people went into the dealership (not many to begin with) with cash in their pockets and left as quickly as I did.
Quoted from carconnection today:
IIHS: Side Airbags Cut Deaths Nearly in Half
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety’s latest study indicates that side-impact airbags can reduce road fatalities by as much as 45 percent in cars so equipped. The insurance industry-funded group reports that side curtain airbags are the more effective type; through data interpretation the IIHS reports that side airbags that do not protect the head, only the chest and abdomen, can still reduce deaths by ten percent. The IIHS says its study is the first of its kind for the new type of airbag, which helped some sport-utes finish well in the group’s last rollover and crash tests as well. "Before head-protecting airbags were available there was virtually nothing to prevent people's heads from being struck by intruding vehicles or rigid objects like trees and poles in serious side-impact crashes. Now we know side airbags can change this and do a good job of protecting heads," said Institute president Brian O'Neill in a release.
In the Institute's first set of side tests (small SUVs) the Forester was the only one w/ a good rating. The picture shows how the head went into the bag, not the moving crash barrier...
If you buy a car today and plan on keeping it for 10 years (when all cars will have curtain bags) you would be foolish not to seek curtain bags as a feature. Why risk death or brain damage when a Suburban crashes into the side of your car at an intersection?? What a sad way to go...
If Subaru doesn't put side curtain bags in their 2005 redesign (as VW has had since 2001.5!) their commitment to safety theme (passive or active) goes out the door...no matter how strong the cage is...and they won't get another $30K from me...
Ralph
http://www.subaru.co.uk/legacy_estate/legacy_estate_features_03my- - .htm
For the next gen, I'd like to see a little more equipment for a little more money, not a lot. You can get an L/SE wagon for $19k, $20k with auto today. $1-2k more than that (street price) with the stuff being asked for here would be reasonable.
And 180hp with AVCS, please.
-juice
If they want to effectively compete, they must create a huge marketing blitz and try to sell some obvious features that other cars in this price range just don't have. Nissan did it, Mazda is getting there, and Subaru could do it too but I wouldn't get my hopes up - their big papa (GM), mgt and dealers suck... and they don't have the right budgets :-(
Like AWD! :-)
It's true though. Match the powertrains in the Altima and Accord (240+hp), the interior of the Passat, and AWD alone would be the selling point.
-juice
I bet there are some consumers clamoring for side airbags who also gab on their cell phones while driving, eat heart-clogging fast food and smoke cancer-causing cigarettes. I do not worry about death by side impact collision. I worry about heart disease and cancer because these are much, much more prevalent.
If you absolutely demand side airbags are you making other life choices that reduce your risk of illness or death? Otherwise, it seems like throwing money at a problem.
Also, a big danger in the broadside hit is the sedan post. Years ago I was hit broadside at an intersection with the bad guy doing about 35 mph. Luckily he hit off-center on the rear axle and my car spun more than 360 degrees. However, my head went through the side window of my coupe. If there was a sedan post there, I'm sure I would have been history.
Perhaps the simple answer is inconvenience. Or maybe it has something to do with the slow pace at which human intelligence evolves.
Regardless, are YOU up to it? Will you risk looking lame at this point in time to further insure your family's safety? Having heard your rationale, I expect only one answer from you, and the next time I check this forum I am expecting to read that you have plans to equip your loved ones with helmets for riding in the car. It really is a simple issue when you think about it.
No excuses now.
Bob
It will be larger than the Legacy, possibly powered by a 3.6 H-6, but that still a rumor at this point.
This vehicle has been in the works for some time. Originally it was to be a joint-effort between GM and Subaru, but a over a year ago, Subaru decided to go it alone.
The following is from an Edmunds CHAT with Mike Whelan of Subaru of America, in which I asked Mike a specific question in reference to that vehicle:
<rsholland>: Now that the GM/Subaru SUW is dead, will Subaru plan on offering a 3-row-seat (Honda) Pilot-like vehicle on their own?
<mike_whelan>: Bob, Subaru still plans to offer a third row 7 passenger vehicle but will do so solely on its own and rest assured, it will be a crossover type of vehicle.
I think you can find the full CHAT transcript here at Edmunds.
Also, if you go to Google and do a search for: "Subaru 7-passenger crossover" you will find other links that have discussions on this vehicle.
Bob
The comparison between Pilot, Subaru Crossover and Rendezvous should be like this.....
Honda Pilot LX vs. Subaru L vs. Rendezvous CX
Honda Pilot EX vs. Subaru GT vs. Rendezvous CXL
Honda Pilot EX-NAVI vs. Subaru L.L Bean vs. Pacifica
Read this 8/26/03 research article:
http://www.highwaysafety.com/news_releases/2003/pr082603.htm
Does anyone know for sure whether the 2005 Legacy re-design will have curtain bags or not. I need to scratch another LLBean off my short list if it doesn't have curtain bags (my 96 Honda Accord just passed 110K, and although it's in a trouble-free zone right now, it has a lot of original major components...so I'm looking to replace it in spring).
I would be shocked if the 2005 didn't have curtain bags. The SOA executive who makes that decision might as well take the place of the dummy in the Insurance Institute's 2005 Legacy side crash test. No way would it not have at least the head/torso front bag the Forester has now....
BTW, I live clean and mean (no dope, no cigs, beer or two a week, little red meat, Kashi cereal, fruits/veggies, spinach, broccoli, exercise, etc.) and I want EVERY chance to keep living clean and mean - no matter how low the probability of someone kissing the side of my Bean at 40mph!
Ralph
Boxers only! )
-juice
Those might be more cost effective.
-juice
Back seats are empty 90% of the time, too.
-juice
If the restricted 250hp is a problem, just get the ECU reflashed once the tuners get ahold of it. The restricted output should mean that those extra 30 horses will be really easy to get back and grow from there. Vishnu's first attempt has the STi Impreza at around 370hp w/ turbo back exhaust and ECu alone. If the Legacy can get the same sized turbo, I don't see any reason why similar numbers can't be made from the same mods (maybe 350hp). It will cost you much more to get to the same level in the Z. However, a carbon fiber driveshaft would be GREAT!
If the restricted 250hp is a problem, just get the ECU reflashed once the tuners get ahold of it. The restricted output should mean that those extra 30 horses will be really easy to get back and grow from there. Vishnu's first attempt has the STi Impreza at around 370hp w/ turbo back exhaust and ECu alone. If the Legacy can get the same sized turbo, I don't see any reason why similar numbers can't be made from the same mods (maybe 350hp). It will cost you much more to get to the same level in the Z. However, a carbon fiber driveshaft would be GREAT!
-juice
Every little tidbit just keeps me salivating.
'04 Forester X, XS, or '05 Legacy wagon or '05 Outback wagon? 10-15 year commuter and family car wanted. Sometimes think about CR-V or TDi Passat wagon. Thoughts and ideas?
DaveM
-Brian