Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

ateixeira · May 2004

I'll respond directly since you're shopping...

Yes, actually I drove your car, a wagon with Sportshift. It was the 2nd of the 3 cars I took on the infield course (see review in Meet the Members). The instructor held me back, but not the car.

I was impressed. You'll recall I thought the auto took the edge off the Forester XT? Not so here. The tranny prevents lag by choosing the right gear. It also doesn't hesitate to shift like the F-XT did. In essence, I felt my lap times would be no worse with the Sportshift, and we didn't even get to use the buttons on the steering wheel.

I'm sure the 5MT is half a second quicker, but we're talking 5.5 to 6.0 seconds, i.e. mega-super-ultra fast vs. merely super-ultra fast. I'll still be envious.

They mentioned Nav, and not the others, so I don't think so. It was broad day light in the desert so we could not try any of the lights, inside or out.

-juice

rsholland · May 2004

Can't answer that yet, but my guess is that it's a non-issue. We didn't drive the GT wagon under street conditions. The VDC we drove on the highway was VERY quiet.

Bob

ateixeira · May 2004

The GT wasn't that loud at 125 mph, so road noise is *not* a problem. Still, the VDC felt more quiet.

What I can't comment on is the ride on the Legacy GT. The Legacy 2.5i soaked up some man-made bumps they put out for us to drive over, but the GT has lower profile tires on bigger rims, and the track was smooth as a baby's bottom.

I'll upload some pics now...

-juice

pon1 · May 2004

Thanks Juice (& Bob)! Just the info I needed. About as close as I can get without driving myself. Considering there are no 05 cars in Canada yet (someone correct me) I suspect we will have to wait till about July for the XT and the H6. The OB XT LTD is just not affordable here, needs a price cut or a base model, so it's the base H6 or the FXT (as the GT rides too low and will get beaten up on camping trips). JP

salbaby1972 · May 2004

The new 05s are up on www.subaru.com for you to build and price. Has more pics.

goneskiian · May 2004

Bob and Juice - Thanks for the reviews! Sounds like you guys had a blast! I have yet to make it over to MTM but so far so good. ;-)

Ken - I too am deciding between the 5EAT and 5MT. Sounds like it will be a close call indeed. Guess I'll have to drive both!

On the topic of stability control...all I know is what I've read like many of you. I'm surprised it's not an option on more Subaru's as well. I'm sure it will "trickle down" to all models soon, but in the mean time if the car you really want doesn't have it take the $2000 you would have spent on it and take some sort of performance driving course. It will serve you better in the long run.

Cheers!
-Ian

lark6 · May 2004

You'll recall I thought the auto took the edge off the Forester XT? Not so here. The tranny prevents lag by choosing the right gear. It also doesn't hesitate to shift like the F-XT did.

Grrr...I'm happy to read this but frustrated at the same time. I get the feeling this tranny will never make its way into the current generation of Forester XT.

The new Legacies/OBs are handsome cars and are poised to take the marque to a new level. Still I would feel uneasy doing things to one of these that I'd do to a Forester with no hesitation. Things like throwing one down a dirt or gravel road, crossing a plowed field to get to a remote fish pond, or carrying a load of mulch, stone, or greasy old car parts in the back.

Maybe these new cars are too nice for me?

Ed

PS: Oh, yeah - nice reports, guys. ;-)

trevian2 · May 2004

Does the rear seat of the legacy sedan fold down for 2005?

beanboy · May 2004

Just a pass-thru. Have to step up to the wagon.

-B

kevin111 · May 2004

"The new Legacies/OBs are handsome cars and are poised to take the marque to a new level. Still I would feel uneasy doing things to one of these that I'd do to a Forester with no hesitation. Things like throwing one down a dirt or gravel road, crossing a plowed field to get to a remote fish pond, or carrying a load of mulch, stone, or greasy old car parts in the back."

- I was under the impression that the OBs have greater ground clearance and less overhang vs. the previous editions, which should make them much more capable running off-road and doing some (if not all) the things you do with your Forester. Previously, I know the Forester had much less of an overhang than the OBs, with a shorter wheel-base, which made them much more capable off-road vehicles.

sodak2 · May 2004

I test drove the 2005 Legacy 2.5i today at noon time. It was the Lite-Blue color with a 5-speed MT trans. I drove it up and over Parley's Summit in Utah. Parley's Summit is between Salt Lake City, Utah and Park City, Utah. On my trip out I drove the vehicle in a conservative fashion (w/. A/C on). The vehicle took the 10 to 12 mile stretch of 6% to 8% grade with no down shifting required, no power lose, and no speed reduction. The RPM held constant. However, to increase speed I had to down shift. This was not possible with either the MT5 trans or AT in the 2004 model I test drove a month earlier on the same route. It handles great, but all the Legacy I tested have handled great. The interior is nice and clean (IMO). All in all I am glad I waited for the 2005 model. I look forward to a purchase in the near future.
PS. I am a long time Honda Accord owner since 1985. I look forward to the change.

snowbird · May 2004

Thank you Bob and Juice for your excellent impressions.

Would it be fair to say that driving on long journeys on highways, the Outback H6 is more comfortable in terms of wind/road noise and seating?

cusafr · May 2004

I was not sure if I wanted the Legacy GT Limited or the Outback LL Bean.

After your review, I have now made up my mind!

I WANT BOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the great reviews.

CUSAFR

subaru_team · May 2004

Did you happen to notice the thick "tape" like pieces scattered throughout the interior (under the hood, under carpet, in the cargo area, etc.? I wondered what they were. They were very heavy to the touch. I was told that they are in strategic points to go along with other sound deadening materials in the vehicles. It seems so well thought out - IMBO!

Patti

rsholland · May 2004

I doubt it. Wind noise, or lack-there-of should be the same. The GT does have slightly larger side bolsters on the seat back, which may be good or bad depending on your perspective. They're designed to better hold you in place during aggressive cornering.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the GT has slightly faster steering than the other Legacys and Outbacks. It has 2.8 turns lock-to-lock; whereas other models, including the Outback XT, have 3.4 turns lock-to-lock. The turning circle is the same for all models, at around 34.5.' The GT also has larger brakes.

Bob

rsholland · May 2004

Patti, no, I missed that. Maybe juice saw that?

Bob

c_hunter · May 2004

I just saw the wheels they are sticking on the 2.5i models (SOA website), they are the same wheels on the 05 WRX. Comparing the 2.5i and the 2.5GT pictures, the GT looks awesome while the "i" looks like it should be on a rental lot. I even Photoshopped out the hood scoop on the GT to remove one more visual difference. Those 16" wheels make the "i" look like a dog. Maybe it will look better in person, we'll see. If not, that's a big strike against the Legacy in my Legacy vs. Accord downselect with the wife.

Craig

alpha01 · May 2004

Actually, the wheels on the 2.5i are similar to the WRX's, but I do not think they are the SAME. I may be wrong, as Im not an expert on the WRX. However, I have seen the 2.5i up close, and can tell you that it looks far from like it belongs on a rental lot.

Im sure youre aware that Accord DXs, LXs, and LX V6 come standard with wheel covers, right? And the rubber on the EX 4 Accord is 15 inches compared to the 2.5i's 16? You also wont find the jazzy chrome finish dual exhaust on the Accord, or on rental cars, but I digress.

Im just curious as to why you feel the 16-inch wheels make the 2.5i look like a "dog" compared the GT. The only differences are the hood scoop, and the larger wheels/tires. (Personally, I think the 5 spoke alloy design of the GT is more generic than the split-spoke design on the 2.5i.

~alpha

subewannabe · May 2004

Many thanks , Juice and Bob, for your selfless dedication to spreading the word to the Crew! Great reports, including the $40.00 wallet report on the way home. The Bellagio , esp., is truly amazing..you have to wonder how much the average visitor leaves in Vegas to pay for that level of excess.

Re: my prior post, I should have specified stability control, not traction control. The state of the art systems integrate engine controls, individual wheel braking and lots of sensors to react far quicker than any human could. A trained driver will be better able to keep a car out of trouble than an ordinary driver, but no driver is perfect and black ice, for example, recognizes no professional driving certifications .
Fence-wise, my wife has really gotten into this adventure and now realizes that the Subarus generally get better gas milage than most comparable AWD vehicle. I was shocked by her report on the milage numbers for the Sorrento, the Santa Fe, the Freelander, etc.

Mark

c_hunter · May 2004

The Accord EX comes with 16" wheels and tires, that's the model we've been comparing to.

The WRX is a classic example -- the fenders were sized and proportioned to look great with 17" wheels, which is the standard size in Europe and Japan. The WRX has always looked ingrown with the smaller 16" wheels offered in the US.

I am guessing it may be the same story with the Legacy. It looks spectacular with the 17" wheels, no doubt. But I really find the 16" looking a little "off" (part of it may also be the less agressive split spokes). I came across more pics from SubieGal, and it just confirms my impression.

BTW, you can compare Legacy 2.5i and WRX pictures on the Subaru website (they both have images of the wheels in their photo galleries). The wheels are the exact same but painted slightly different colors -- silver on the Legacy, light bronze on the WRX.

Craig

alpha01 · May 2004

True point, my apologies on the Accord EX 4 cyl wheels. About Legacy vs. WRX wheels.. in my book, if they're different colors, that makes them different, not the same. You might want to check out the Legacy in person, thats all Im saying.

~alpha

stickguy · May 2004

if the only thing you don't like about the car is the wheels, the dealer would be more than happy to swap them/upgrade them in most cases.

kevin111 · May 2004

"The WRX has always looked ingrown with the smaller 16" wheels offered in the US. "

- Is this because of the cost factor to keep the WRX below the $25K threshold, when it was introduced, and to give it a better ride quality (compared with the European cars) for American roads?

dlydrvr · May 2004

Is it just me or is 250hp not enough?

The Legacy is the only Subaru option for the current WRX driver to move up to. A 13hp increase and 33 torque bump for 200 extra pounds does not cut it.

I could not live with myself if I moved up to a 250hp Legacy when there are 280hp Infiniti's, 300hp Mustangs,and 340hp Hemi Magnums available at similar prices.

Subaru, I am not the only WRX driver who feels this way. I don't want our relationship to end after my WRX. I think you know what needs to be done. 2006 Subaru Legacy STi.

rsholland · May 2004

This model was not at the Las Vegas Dealer Convention. However, juice and I were able to get brochures on both the Legacy and Outback. So if you need any specific questions answered, fire away.

The Outback brochure indicates that the Outback sedan will come only with the H-6, and it's will only come in monochromatic paint. So no more 2-tone Outback sedans. I think that makes sense, as I think this will have a better chance of luring those who are wishing for a Legacy H-6 sedan.

Also, some models will now allow you a choice of two interior colors per exterior color.

Bob

c_hunter · May 2004

stickguy: of course, I could always upgrade the wheels myself (that was the first upgrade I made to my WRX). But that's going to add, at minimum, $1200 to the price of the car, which is already about $1200 more than a comparably equipped Accord EX (except for AWD, obviously). My wife would laugh me right out of credibility if I pitch that one.

kevin111: The WRX definitely rides better on the stock 16" wheel/tire combo than on 17", and costs held equal, a 16" wheel will generally be lighter than a 17" wheel. Rotational mass affects the WRX quite bit in acceleration department. So, 16" is the better choice for all around comfort, cost, and faster acceleration times. Whether or not these factors were driving the decision, I don't know.

Craig

lark6 · May 2004

I must respectfully disagree. Several WRX owners have replaced their cars with Forester XTs and many of them appear to be pleased with the change. (edit: There is, of course, the WRX STi...)

I'd reserve judgment on the Legacy's power and performance vis-a-vis the cars you mention until having driven all of them.

Ed

chrono · May 2004

Do I even want to take the bait? Your all over the place buddy. The GT is a sports sedan. The 280hp is only reserved for the g35 coupe. The Hemi twins are substantially larger cars that weigh about 4000lbs. And you threw in a rustang? Gimme a break. Let's compare apples to apples. Look at the TSX, g35 sedan, 325, 330 or even a TL. If your a horsepower junky get an STI. The GT is a high performance, AWD, sedan that is refined. 250hp might not sound great when you just throw out HP numbers but power to weight ratio is good. The GT weighs around 3300 lbs combined with AWD, razor sharp steering and a nice interior makes it very competative in it's segment if not leading the pack. Lastly, I'm sure there will be mods available to increase HP since the GT is a turbo ....

c_hunter · May 2004

Stock WRX is 227HP, so you'd gain 23HP going to the Legacy GT (plus a larger displacement motor that is a heck of a lot easier to live with than the WRX's frenetic on/off powerplant). I believe the power to weight ratios are pretty close between the cars.

Craig

dlydrvr · May 2004

I don't care if it is a sedan or coupe.
I want a high performance, AWD, sedan that is refined.
I have faith in Subaru, I think they can do
that with 300hp.

dlydrvr · May 2004

sorry about the math.
I know it will be a blast to drive.
Is it wrong to want a 300hp Legacy?

atlgaxt · May 2004

Thanks to Juice and Bob for the tantalizing description of their adventure. The 2005 Legacy / Outback sound like great cars. My concern is regarding the size of these vehicles, especially after actually spending some time looking at them at my local dealer. They do not appear to offer any more room as compared to a Forester.

This impression is backed up by my research at the Subaru Website, comparing a Forester XT PP to a 2005 Legacy or Outback with sunroof (apples to apples), headroom, legroom, and shoulder room (front and back) are all within a fraction of an inch of each other. Same if you look without a sunroof on both models

Outback with sunroof offers 32.1 cubic feet cargo with seat up, 61.7 with seat down. Forester with sunroof offers 29.6 up, 62.7 down. Again, without a sunroof the relationship is similar. However, because of its more utilitarian cube like shape, I think the usable cargo advantage actually goes to the Forester, especially with the seats up, as the back window of the Legacy Outback curves into your space. I was really hoping for at least 70 cubic feet of cargo room. The Forester is great for most tasks, but I would like to have another slightly larger vehicle.

Bottom line is that with no size advantage, you are paying extra for better styling, a longer car (which is not necessarily an advantage), better handling and more refinement. You are not getting any more size, which I think is a mistake in the American market. My conclusions:

1. I do not regret buying my wife the Forester XT last Fall and not waiting for the new Outback / Legacy.

2. If we were buying her a new car today, I think I would still go with the Forester as compared to an Outback.

3. For my next vehicle, I am either waiting for the 7 passenger or going to something else, so the chances of me having a two Subie fleet have reduced slightly. I can't wait to see a real rendering or prototype of the 7 seater, which will help to make my decision.

rsholland · May 2004

George, I disagree. I own a first-generation Forester, and I can tell you the new Legacy and Outback are indeed roomier. The second-generation Forester is a tad roomier than mine, but nowhere as roomy as the new legacy and Outback.

Now having said that, I do agree Subaru needs a larger-still sedan. I think you will see that, once the new 7-passenger crossover debuts.

Bob

rsholland · May 2004

One of the tech guys hinted that the 5EAT will eventually replace the 4EAT at some point.

Bob

njswamplands · May 2004

rsholland · May 2004

1, lies. 2, damn lies. 3, statistics.

If you sit in the new Legacy or Outback, I don't see how you can come away thinking the Forester is larger.

Bob

kevin111 · May 2004

The Legacy is going to be more refined, with a nicer interior, and a little faster than a WRX. The problem is, stepping up from a WRX, it is tough to justify the Legacy GT, unless you need the extra room.

After living with a WRX for 2 years, I have become used to the "WRX's frenetic on/off powerplant" that C_hunter talks about, so this is not an issue.

If we are getting the 350 hp twin-turbo STi (thought I heard of a boxter-6 dual-turbo out there) then this would be a serious upgrade.

I understand the STi version would be much more expensive than the current GT version, but if the model is out in a couple of years or later, it might be of interest as we keep climing the corporate ladder.

On another note, if I was buying a car today, the Legacy GT would be near or at the top of my list, ahead of the WRX.

atlgaxt · May 2004

Giving Bob a benefit of a doubt since he has obviously spent more time in the cars, I looked again at the statistics.

As stated earlier, between the Forester and the Outback, headroom, legroom and shoulder room front and back are a virtual tie. Cargo room is about the same, varying slightly according to sunroof.

But, the website lists the interior passenger volume at 97.4 cubic feet for the Outback, with or without the sunroof (which sounds a little suspicious). For the Forester it is 91.2 with the sunroof and 93.5 without the sunroof. This may explain why the Outback may feel more spacious, especially considering that some of the Forester's space is due to its high roof.

That said, I still wish the Outback offered a little more cargo room with the seats flat.

stickguy · May 2004

Almost seems the Subaru understated the HP, considering the 0-60 times reported (5.xx). Even if accurate, I think that says there is enough HP, but I'm more results based than stats based. But, if you want more, chip it.

As to room, the Forester probably has more vertical space, but the legacy has more Horizontal. To me, the extra headroom isn't really usable, but elbow and stretch-out room is. I also am more interested in cargo space up to seat height, because I normally don't stack above that, so floor space is of prime concern, more so than height.

For wheels, I wasn't thinking of aftermarket, and didn't think that a dealer upgrade would be that much, but I've never priced it, so how would I know.

c_hunter · May 2004

Port-installed upgraded 17" wheels for the WRX run $1350 (cast) to $3000 (forged). If the dealer does it, add even more money. Decent aftermarket wheels are $150-200 (each) minimum and then figure $100-150 (each) for decent tires. I think I spent $1150 on 17" wheels/tires for my WRX, and that was with the wheels on closout for $120 each!

So, having gone through this with one car, I am not eager to do it again. At least in the case of the WRX, I could justify it from a performance standpoint. With the Legacy, it would be based on looks only. But, I really need to see the car in person before worrying about wheels....

Craig

subewannabe · May 2004

FWIW, a poster at nabisco has gone to the trouble of measuring by hand all of the pertinent dimensions of the Forester and new Legacy wagon cargo areas, with rear seats up and down, and posting those dimensions overlayed on photographs . It is very informative. The "winner" depends entirely on what you want to haul.
   For example, the width of the gate opening at the floor and between the wheel wells is almost 3" greater in the Legacy; on top the wheel wells, 2.5" greater in the Forester,across the inside of the roof, greater in the Legacy. Of significance, the rear gates mirror the general shape of their cargo areas. The Forester has that hexagonal gate and it is widest at the height of the wheel wells... so, if you need to haul something 48 inches across, like a piece of plywood, then you can do that in a Forester if you can slide it in on top the wheel wells.
   The cargo area height is 2.5 " greater floor- to-roof in a Forester, assuming moonroof yes or no in both.
   The cargo area floor length to the back of the rear seats is 6" longer in the Legacy, 7" longer with the rear seats folded forward. However, the more slanted rear hatch angle and the greater rear seat recline angle in the Legacy causes that floor lenth advantage to disappear as you move toward the roof. From the side, the Legacy cargo area has a nearly triangular profile, while the Forester is much closer to a rectangle. Thus, the Forester will hold a much longer rigid box that is as tall as the rear gate opening.
  In other words, you can haul more golf bags and duffel bags in a new Legacy wagon behined the rear seat; you can haul more boxes of new computer equipment or similar large, rigid cartons in the Forester.
   Dog Owners: The cargo area in the Legacy is easily large enough for at least one large dog to stand and move about easily; that particular requirement disqualified the WRX wagon for my purposes. Two large dogs would be quite comfortable standing in the cargo area of a Forester; they would have to like each other if they both wanted to lie down back there. Check out Juice's new pics from Las Vegas to see the new Legacy/Outback dog barrier. This is the first barrier I have seen that specifically shields the shoulder belts from the dog. I know lots of people, myself included, whose bored dogs chewed up the shoulder belts when left in the car and those can be very expensive to replace, way more expensive than the dog barrier. The new barrier is designed so the bottom is parallel with the top edge of the rear seats when those are up, but stays in place when you fold down either or both of the split rear seats, so long items simply slide right under the guard. Somebody did their homework with this design.

mark

rsholland · May 2004

The Forester has more vertical space, whereas the Legacy/Outback have more horizontal space. The interior is longer, whereas the Forester is taller.

Bob

dlydrvr · May 2004

The problem for me is that the new Legacy is the best looking Subaru, by a longshot. I want a step up in performace, refinement and looks from my WRX. The WRX STi adds performance and an ugly wing. The Forester XT adds refinement (maybe?). The new Legacy is a step up in looks and refinement. 300+ HP makes it a done deal for me, 250 does not.

atlgaxt · May 2004

OK - so maybe the Outback will have enough room to fit my needs. We got an AT on our Forester because we wanted the PP package goodies and because it was for my wife. With AT, I convinced her we needed a turbo (it was not hard because prior to getting it she said she would never drive another 4 cyl AT again) and we are quite happy.

To Bob and Juice - Did you get a chance to drive a 2.5i with a 5 speed MT? If so, does it work as well as the MT on the Turbo? Now that I am not forced to get the AT to get the goodies, I am thinking of a 2.5i limited with a MT. I figure it should be fairly peppy, it would be a lot cheaper than an XT or a 3.0, I could get good fuel consumption on cheaper fuel, and when I need a rush of turbo power I still would have the Forester.

George

chrono · May 2004

The new Legacy is a step up in looks and refinement. 300+ HP makes it a done deal for me, 250 does not.

How many 300+ hp sport sedans with the Legacy GT's qualities are they're for under 40K? To step up you'd have to get an S4 or an M3 for 50K. That's twice the price. Like someone mentioned, you can chip it later or you can just go buy something else...

pon1 · May 2004

A mundane question, but did we get the factory tint in the production Outbacks. This was an expectation earlier in the year. Someone must know now that they are arriving at dealers in the US. I assumed all earlier "05s" were show cars with no tint to allow a better view of the interior. JP

leochan · May 2004

Bob/Juice,

Does the brochure indicate the ground clearance for the Legacy GT wagon?

Bob: Thanks for replying to my previous post
Juice: Still interested in your feedback to my post (#20442 in Meet The Members 2 Forum).

Once again, thanks for the great write-ups!!

Leo

dlydrvr · May 2004

How many 300+ hp sport sedans with the Legacy GT's qualities are they're for under 40K?

None, that's my point.
I can think of a few in the 250hp range.

rsholland · May 2004

Leo, no the Legacy brochure does not mention ground clearance.

This raises an interesting point about the brochures. The Outback brochure mentions towing, whereas the Legacy brochure doesn't. In the past all these specs were offered in both brochures; not anymore. In addition, the Outback brochure now mentions angle of approach, breakover angle, and angle of departure. These are all important info for those who venture off road.

Bob

rsholland · May 2004

Juice noted at the airport, while reading the brochures, that the Outback VDC now has a limited-slip rear dif. That's not mentioned in previous Outback brochures, so that must be new this year too.

Bob

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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