Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Floor the turbo GT or XT, the engine is dead until around 2500rpm and the car shoots like what 250hp turbocharged engine should. Because the course is so small, we tried only first gear. In comparison, the non turbo is dead in the whole rpm range.
Handling wise, overall the GT brakes and handles A LOT better than the XT(outback) does. while the GT has a lot of grip when pushing the car into sharp corners, the outback are just not going around corner smoothly (when i see other group member taking the corners), from the noise it's making and it's poise around the corners. And it consistently takes longer to stop the outback from around 40mph (around 60 70 km/h) than the GT's.
IMO, if you care about handling, the GT is a much better choice. I'm considering a GT wagon myself, i never liked the outback! And my gf has the old GT wagon, handling is really nice.
As I had mentioned before, neither juice nor I had an opportunity to drive the GTs under "normal" driving conditions at Vegas. Today I was able to do that. My favorite of these two: The Legacy GT with the 5-speed manual. The 5EAT on the Bean is fun, but it's nowhere near as much fun as the manual Legacy. The Legacy is also the better handling vehicle.
Better handling + 5-speed manual = MORE FUN!
Interesting tidbit: I accidentally exceeded the red-line in the GT in 2nd gear, only to find out that there is some sort of engine cut-off, as the car started bucking violently, much like that Penske truck I drove last summer with the speed governor set at 65 mph.
Also, GT Limiteds with the taupe interior get wood interior accents like the Outbacks. I thought the wood grain accents were an Outback exclusive; not so.
I noticed with the Bean, if you're on the highway, any time you give additional gas, it results in a downshift. Not sure that I like that, in that that I found it a bit annoying. Also the SportShift function didn't shift as fast as I had hoped (or remembered from Vegas). I'm anxious to try it on a GT with the shift buttons on the steering wheel, to see if that's any better.
Bob
Bob
I hit it accidentally on my WRX a couple times too when I was getting used to the engine. Once the H4 turbos start boosting, they really shoot for the redline. In fact, I installed a shift light in my WRX as a "pay attention knucklehead" feature.
CRaig
I believe that some beach patrols in NJ use the Baja, which is built on the same platform as the Outback.
Craig
I bet the programming for the tranny is set up to respond to throttle quicker, at least initially. maybe as it learns the drivers behavior it will adjust?
the 5sp AT in our MPV did the same thing early on - it would downshift with little throttle input. As it learned our driving habits, it holds the gear a bit unless more throttle is applied.
-Brian
The 05 Legacy/Outback design is different from all three of my Subarus in the sense that there is no dedicated gutter or channel. Looking at the pictures in Car and Driver, it looks like the 05 Outback has blisters stamped in the roof, under the rack side rails (similar blisters are on my 02). These should function to divert some rain water from dripping over the sides of the car. However, the blisters do not extend all the way forward (they stop about 8" behind the windshield top edge). So, I am guessing the drips are originating in this 8" region, which would put them in the thigh/knee region of people sitting in the front seats. On all my other Subarus, there is some form of gutter/channel that goes front to back, and we've never had a drip problem.
The 05 sedans have ridges stamped into the roof that should function the same as the blisters on the wagons. I can't tell from pictures how far forward they extend, however.
Craig
Thanks for the tips. I've driven many rutted & difficult dirt roads in various
sorts of (rental) vehicles so, even without experience on sand, I feel fairly
confident that I can drive sensibly. I see many pick-ups and jeeps out on
the beaches of Cape Cod and know that one can obtain permits for driving
these areas but have never seen an Outback or similar. I'll look up the
relevant similarities/differences between the Baja and the Outback.
I would love to hear from anyone who has personal experience with
beach driving.
Are these the key parameters:
"AWD, Weight, Tire Width, Clearance, Gear, Tire Pressure"
What else is important?
Thanks,
Yan
http://www.nps.gov/caco/activities/oversand/index.html
http://www.nps.gov/caco/activities/oversand/accessories.html
They say one must have at least 225/70 tires for wheels
with >15" diameter in order to get an oversand permit.
The Outbacks only have 225/60 tires. Can anyone offer some information
about using nonstandard (e.g., 225/70) tires on the Outback under normal
(city/highway) driving conditions? Does anyone have specific recommendations?
Thanks, Yan
You mentioned that you were interested in a 2004 OB 35th Anniv. Edition or a 2005 LL Bean. Why not consider a 2004
You are considering either a 2004 OB 35th Ann w/Auto or a 2005 OB LL Bean. Why not consider a 2004 LL Bean, which can be had for around 25K. I purchased a 2004 LL Bean in late April for $25400.. DJB63
So what do people here recommend? Do you like the Bridgstone Potenzas that came with your car or do you recommend something else? I found some Continental CrossContact LX tires at tirerack.com that looked appealing with good treadware rating and an excellent warranty. Does anyone know anything about these tires?
But lately I think what I really want is a practical car. Moonroofs & leather seating don't mean much. The 35th has plenty of power (and I'll probably get fewer speeding tickets). I want to carry my bike. I want a trailer hitch for occasional light use. Also, I note that the 2005 models have 7 cubic feet LESS cargo space than the 2004 models.
Yan
OE (Original Equipment) tires are not as likely to get good reviews, simply because the folks who hated their OE tires are much more likely to post on this web site compared to those who loved the OE tires. Those that purchase tires through Tire Rack are going to be more evenly split in their comments and may be even biased towards positive comments if the purchased tires fixed a problem.
Hope this helps.
would probably not be at tirerack.com in the first place... so the comments at
tirerack.com would tend to come from people that are not content with their
OE tires. While that's very sensible, I'm still amazed by the reviews I saw.
They did say the Potenza's would grip well on dry pavement. There were a few
positive reviews. But many reviewers said they were slipping and
sliding all over the road in damp or snowy conditions... quite a few of these
were from here in New England. They did not blame their Subaru but their tires.
I feel stupid for not having paid closer attention to this before. It stands to
reason that tires are an important investment in terms of safety & handling
as well as cost (the cost of an accident as well as the cost of replacement).
Subaru's have an image of beng safe, good-handling & reliable cars in all
weather conditions and its partly that image that I'm buying into. I just
assumed that they would put good tires on the vehicle... but
the information at tirerack.com (standardized ratings as well as reviews)
challenges that assumption.
So I want to hear more about what tires YOU use and how they perform.
I appreciate your comments.
Yan
Point taken. Usually I do respect the break-in revs on test drives, and then again sometimes I get "caught up in the moment" and forget, as was the case with this car—which, BTW, with the turbo GT, is very easy to do. Even so, I was surprised by the rev-cut-off. I guess it's a good idea, in that it makes you much more aware of the revs. Redline is only 6500, and it comes up very quickly on this car. Other than the Penske truck with a speed governor that I mentioned, that's the first time I've ever experienced that.
Bob
Subaru should revise the Forester's moonroof as per the one now found on Legacy/Outback wagons.
Bob
Are these the key parameters:
"AWD, Weight, Tire Width, Clearance, Gear, Tire Pressure"
What else is important?
My guess is the new Outback XT (because that's the one with the most ground clearance at 8.7" would be the Outback best-suited for any off-road excursions, including sand.
My main concern with any Subaru in the sand would be poor angles of approach and departure. Since it's sand, and sand does give way pretty easily, it may not be that big of a problem, Then again it could, depending on how steep the inclines are. my other concern is that there's no low-range on US-spec Subies, if you should encounter a situation in which extra-low gearing may be required. I've had that happen with my Explorer, and was very thankful that I had a low range.
In terms of driving on sand, you want to keep the vehicle moving at all times if possible. You don't want to stop on an incline, for example. Doing so you may end up digging a hole as you start off, and suddenly you're stuck.
That's what happens in the soft sand. If you accelerate strongly from a dead start the tires "dig," and before you realize it, the chassis is sitting on the sand and you're stuck. Riding on the hard sand, near the water's edge is a piece of cake; it's in the soft sand that you need to take (great!) care...
Also, it's much easier and safer to ride in established tire tracks. Cutting across established tire tracks, or making your own, can be risky. And yes, your tire pressure should be 18 – 20 psi. Don't go too low, however, or you may damage your tire sidewalls. Also don't speed on the beach. Again you risk tire damage and getting yourself stuck.
As to equipment: air pump, tire gauge, tire jack, a 2"x6"x12" or longer piece of wood (to place a jack on, if you get stuck), shovel, tow straps, cell phone, plenty of water, and any other "survival" items such as suntan lotion, etc. Bottom line: plan ahead, and as the Boy Scouts say, 'Be Prepared.'
Also be aware of high and low tides, as you may venture out at low tide, only to find that at high tide, your return path may have disappeared.
Bob
would probably not be at tirerack.com in the first place... so the comments at
tirerack.com would tend to come from people that are not content with their
OE tires. While that's very sensible, I'm still amazed by the reviews I saw.
They did say the Potenza's would grip well on dry pavement. There were a few
positive reviews. But many reviewers said they were slipping and
sliding all over the road in damp or snowy conditions... quite a few of these
were from here in New England. They did not blame their Subaru but their tires.
I feel stupid for not having paid closer attention to this before. It stands to
reason that tires are an important investment in terms of safety & handling
as well as cost (the cost of an accident as well as the cost of replacement).
Subaru's have an image of beng safe, good-handling & reliable cars in all
weather conditions and its partly that image that I'm buying into. I just
assumed that they would put good tires on the vehicle... but
the information at tirerack.com (standardized ratings as well as reviews)
challenges that assumption.
So I want to hear more about what tires YOU use and how they perform.
I appreciate your comments.
Yan
Thanks for all the comments about driving an Outback on the beach. They are much
appreciated. But I wonder about the "18-20 psi" and "don't go too low" remarks...
The links I gave in Msg 2157 indicate that my beginning tire pressure should not
exceed 15 psi and they generally recommend using 12 psi. Here's the link:
<http://www.nps.gov/caco/activities/oversand/regulations.html>
Do you agree with them or do you think they are wrong or what?
Thanks, Yan
• Most people who drive off road do it in trucks or SUVs, which usually have taller sidewalls. Besides that truck tires, even those found on smaller trucks, have a beefier construction than car tires. This link is written more for this truck/SUV audience, than for a car audience.
• By lowering the tire pressure, what you are doing is making the tire "fatter" so that it "floats" on top of the sand, rather than "dig" into the sand. Tires with aggressive tire patterns such as all-terrain or mud-terrain tires are probably the worst type of tires you can use on the sand, because they are designed to dig to find traction. That exactly the opposite of what you want on the sand. Actually the best sand tires are bald street tires, with little or no tread, because they have little or no ability to dig.
• My recommendation would be to lower the tire pressure as little as you can. If that doesn't work, lower it a bit more. Just keep in mind the lower you go, the more you risk doing damage to your sidewalls—and Outback sidewalls are not that tall to start with (55 or 60 section, as opposed to 70 or 75 section found on most trucks/SUVs). And again, Outback tires are car tires, not truck tires.
• Actually, the Forester comes with a light-duty truck tire (60-section Geolanders) and is probably the Subaru best suited for sand duty, as it has the best angle of approach and departure too.
• Also remember to air back up as soon as you bet back on hard road, hence the tire pump. Sometimes gas stations with air can be several miles away from the beach access. You could easily ruin a tire just driving to the gas station to air up.
Bob
Ken in showery Seattle
I have had RE-92 tires on my last two Hondas (93 Civic and 97 Prelude). In both cases, the tires made it to about 45K miles. They were decent in rain and snow when new, but were pretty bad once they wore down. I believe these were the 220 TW variety. The 340 TW ones on my Outback continue to be good in the rain/snow at 42K miles and look like they will hit 60K miles easily.
Anyways, before sounding the alarm about the RE-92 tires, make sure you know which ones are on the car you're looking at.
Craig
I don't know which RE-92's are which (it would help if they gave different names
to different tires!) but thought I'd share some of the information I've gathered.
Among these, the Pirelli's look the best to me. The RE92's are described as a
"value" (read "cheap") tire. The Continental's are inexpensive but little info is
available on them. At $91/tire, the price of the Pirelli's is reasonable and they
get good reviews for handling under wet conditions... hopefully they are not
too noisy as I like a quiet ride and excessive tire/road noise would drive me nuts.
Note that I'm looking at 225/70-16 tires (not the 225/60-16 Original Equipment)
since I want them to be tall enough to take on sandy beaches. Can anyone comment
on what "side effects" (mileage? speed/odometer?) I'll experience because of this?
Should I consider even larger designs like 235/75-16 or something (if possible)?
Yan
====================
Bridgestone Potenza RE92
TESTS
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/value_hpallseason.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/value_hp_allseason_c.html
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/2vs4_01.jsp
GENERAL INFO
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&- - tireModel=Potenza+RE92
225/60HR16:
40,000 mile treadlife warranty
360 A A Uniform Tire Quality Guide (UTQG)
1609 lbs maximum load
44 psi maximum inflation
11/32nds initial tread depth
837 revolutions/mile
REVIEWS
http://www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyComments.jsp?additionalComme- - - nts=y&tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+RE92&com- - mentStatus=P
====================
Continental CrossContact LX
GENERAL INFO
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&- - tireModel=CrossContact+LX&sidewall=Outlined+White+Letters
225/70HR16:
65,000 mile treadlife warranty
560 A B Uniform Tire Quality Guide (UTQG)
1874 lbs maximum load
44 psi maximum inflation
12/32nds initial tread depth
740 revolutions/mile
====================
Pirelli Scorpion STR A
GENERAL INFO
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tire- - Model=Scorpion+STR+A&vehicleSearch=true&partnum=27HR6SCOR- - STROWL&fromCompare1=yes
TESTS
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testResultsModel.jsp?tireMode- - l=Scorpion+STR+A&tireMake=Pirelli
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/pi_scorpion_str_c.html
REVIEWS
http://www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyComments.jsp?additionalComme- nts=y&tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+STR+A&comme- - ntStatus=P
225/70HR16:
65,000 mile treadlife warranty
520 A A Uniform Tire Quality Guide (UTQG)
1874 lbs maximum load
44 psi maximum inflation
12/32nds initial tread depth
732 revolutions/mile
Does anyone know how the stability control works on a 2wd vehicle? I was under the impression that stability control breaks and sends power to the wheels that need it. I can understand how that would work in a AWD vehicle, but 2wd only has 1 pulling wheel in the front?
Bob
From my experience with my 2001 Accord with Traction control (different from stability control)... there is usually a differential between the two wheels of the driving axle. Under normal driving circumstances, power goes to only one wheel. Traction control involves a limited slip differential which does not allow that one wheel to spin out of control as compared to the speed of the other wheel. When there is any slippage detected from that wheel, power is diverted from the usual wheel to the other wheel on the same axle. This is usually limited to low speeds in most cars with standard traction control, 35mph in the VW golf/jetta etc, in order to start moving in slippery conditions or when brisk acceleration is warranted. Remember this applies to FWD cars. As opposed to specifically 2WD cars. There is a difference. Most cars what we consider 2WD are actually FWD and use a single wheel for power. 2 WD actually has more or less of a fixed differential at all speeds (not precisely or you would have excessive tire wear and probably decreased grip in turns!).
Stability control is different from all this. That detects slippage in any tire, or sudden lateral shifts, etc, not just that associated with acceleration causing transient slippage. It is more complex, and involves more sensors, and more control. Control over individual brakes, and control over torque distribution (either by cutting power, or diverting power to a specific wheel), in order to return the vehicle to stability. In a FWD vehicle, the stability control usually involves diverting or cutting power within the front 2 wheels, but allows breaking control over all 4 individual wheels.
E.g. All the fuss about not having the VDC as an option in all the subarus refer to this kind of a sophisticated stability control system. The AWD systems of most cars including all subarus are, in a way, 4 wheel traction control - continuous (at all speeds)!. In manual tranny subarus, the torque split is about half/half between front and rear wheels in all conditions (the 4EAT/5EAT is more complex), not just when slippage is detected. Thus most AWD cars have good traction control, but not all will have stability control unless provided for. (I hope the VDC becomes an option soon)
I hope I am not misguiding you or the others in this forum, and have answered your question. Anyone, please correct me if I am wrong about any of this. This is just my take on the way I think things work, but can't say I have read it specifically explained like this anywhere so I may be way wrong!
Rahim.
Will be changing the tires as soon as the Dunlop Wintersport M-2s come available. Have them on the Baja year round and couldn't be happier. The Potenzas perform poorly on turns, control and responsiveness. Really a mediocre tire for the XT.
Wish there were more interior pockets. Why only 1 net behind front passenger seat, not driver's seat?
Miss the weatherband radio. Window motors a little noisy. Glove box doesn't shut tight. Need to have adjusted.
Overall very satisfied with the XT and would recommend highly. Will keep you all updated.
Mike
Mike
The comments at Tire Rack also need to be taken with a grain of salt due to the old vs. new syndrome. Many posters will comment on the performance of their brand new tires vs. their outgoing old tires. Of course the new ones are going to perform better!
Stability control usually employs a series of motion sensors and the vehicles brakes to correct under and oversteer situtations. For example, a car is entering a corner too fast and begins to push the front out to the corner. Stability control will apply more brake power to the outside wheel. AWD is not a prequisite for this to happen.
Ken
As I had mentioned before, neither juice nor I had an opportunity to drive the GTs under "normal" driving conditions at Vegas. Today I was able to do that. Interesting tidbit: I accidentally exceeded the red-line in the GT in 2nd gear, only to find out that there is some sort of engine cut-off, as the car started bucking violently
<<<<
that is normal driving????
Bob
SO what else do you do when "living" with cars? Four-wheel drifts?? :-)
Craig
Bob
The most memorable experience on the test drive was how flat the wagon cornered. I took a freeway on ramp fairly fast and was amazed at how little body roll there was. Steering was awesome too, as juice mentioned. The vehicle just felt incredibly planted.
I did also notice that the 5EAT, when given gas suddenly seems to wait for a second or two before it surges forward. I don't know if this was the back pressure thing or just a TCU that's learning, but I did wish that power kicked in a little sooner. Once it was on it's way there was nice strong delivery of power. I believe leaving the selector in Sportshift mode didn't change it much.
I wanted to try a manual, but all the 5MT models were sedans and they were in the process of having the side airbags retrofitted.
Right after the Legacy GT test drive, I headed over to the Infiniti dealer to drive a G35 sedan. The advantages of a 3.5L NA engine was quite apparent as even the auto felt quite peppy down low. The brakes were also very communicative and felt solid -- more so than the Legacy.
However, the G35 overall interior and exterior wasn't to my taste. While some parts like the seat leather seemed very well done, there were parts of the vehicle like the carpeting in the trunk space that just didn't seem right in a +30K vehicle. The Legacy seemed much more tastefully done. Also the G35 (without optional sport package) didn't corner as flat as the Legacy GT.
So, bottom line -- I can't wait for my GT Ltd. Wagon to show up! I'll have to try a manual before I take delivery juuuuust to make sure, though.
I'd love to read a car magazine review on just the GT. I wonder if C&D would do a comparo against other sport sedans or wagons.
Ken
It does rev freely and quickly, though. Even if it had been an automatic, they do rev to the redline before shifting.
As for that auto, Bob, I guess the "adaptive" tranny really works if you noticed a difference from that dealer model to the broken-in one that we drove in Vegas.
Lesson learned: drive 'em hard so the adaptive tranny wises up! It's up to you!
Good to hear that you thought the moonroof was quieter. Must be nice to drive with it wide open! We didn't get to try it because conditions were so dusty in the desert.
Beach experience? Yes, in my Forester. These comments should apply because:
1) I have the same viscous coupling in the manual tranny Legacy and Outback
2) I use the same tire size as the 2004 model, 225/60R16
I aired down to 18psi and drove all over the Outer Banks. The key is to drive smoothly, and not stop on the soft (quick)sand, where you might sink. I was able to climb some moderate inclines, basically a ramp to get onto the beaches.
Never even close to getting stuck. My ground clearance with those tires is about 7.8", so a new Outback will do even better. Wider tires float better on sand, keep that in mind. OB is a little heavier, though.
The 2005 is lighter and has more clearance, it should do very well.
I've also had the Forester in the Pine Barrens, that was fun. Again, aired down to 18 psi and drove around on sand/dirt/mud and even did some small water crossings. Basically more than 99.9% of the population will ever do in their SUVs.
-juice
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291908527&p=4258247262- &idx=3
Pine Barrens water crossing:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291908527&p=4248509236- &idx=15
Impromptu "Hay Ride" at the Apple Orchard:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291908527&p=4243265717- &idx=17
You might need to register with ImageStation.com to view those pics.
-juice
To be honest juice, I just don't remember. I was a little disappointed however, that my latest test drive didn't shift as fast in SportShift mode as I had hoped. Was it slow shifting? No, just not fast shifting.
Bob
Unless they brought "ringers" to the track....LOL.
But no, even if they had ringers it would be for the PRESS, not their own dealer body, which has to sell them.
-juice
Speaking of turbos, my sense is the 5-speed manual is still the hot set-up. A few who have reported driving 5EAT turbos have mentioned a flat spot around 2500 rpm, and may also be a tad slow off the mark until the turbo spools up.
Bob
-juice
Bob
-juice
I wonder if the 5EAT TCU for the OBXT and Legacy GT are programmed differently. It would be interesting if you got to drive the Legacy GT in everyday situations too.
In any event, I don't doubt for a second that the manual is going to be more fun.
Ken
4WD works on the forward arrow and the lateral arrow while accelerating; stability control works on the backwards arrow and the lateral arrow while decelerating. The best AWD systems will redistribute the torque among the wheels to give the best forward and lateral grip while accelerating or maintaining speed. Stability control reduces the distribution of torque by braking or total torque by cutting engine power to give the best lateral grip and directional control while reducing speed.
AWD is not good enough by itself. Consumer Reports showed this in its tests of the Subaru. Without VDC the the car did not show good emergency handling; with VDC it was stable in the emergency avoidance test. Subaru seems to have one of the best combinations of AWD and stability control in the VDC Outback, and rather than raising the bar and making this standard or available for all models, it limits the combination to one model. Subaru runs the risk of losing a competitive advantage if other cars make this combination available to cars in the $20,000-$30,000 price range before it does.
I found this December 2001 discussion of using the Outback on
oversand trails and the collective wisdom there said "Don't do it".
http://reel-time.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24268&highlight=o- - utback+oversand
I guess this is such a small part of how I will actually want to use
the car that I'm not going to get hung up over it (or the tire issue)
now. Instead, I'll just proceed toward my final purchase decision.
Candidates are:
1) '04 H6 35th Anniversary
2) '04 H6 LL Bean
3) '05 H6 LL Bean
I originally was excited about the new XT Limited... but the air scoop
turned me off both aesthetically (I like to be more understated) and
in terms of the added hassle of clearing off the snow & ice.
Yan
Can someone compare the engine dynamics of the Forester XT and the Legacy GT? The XT is just plain diabolical. I'm hoping the GT motor is just as nasty but more refined...