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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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    njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
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    chassolchassol Member Posts: 95
    Maintenance Offer - Let's put it this way - I've owned nothing but Subarus (5) since 1998 - registered in need-desire.com when it came up and registered in mysubaru.com and we got the offer. I think that if you wait a week or two , if you are in one of the above you may see the offer in the mail. IF you can swing it I strongly suggest you purchase (not lease) and IF possible get the GT Limited. We were fortunate to get the first one (Sedan w/5EAT) at our dealer. I think you will be more than pleased. Subaru is out to sell cars and the push is on for both the Outback and the Legacy. Keep in mind Subaru has worked hard to separate the two models and IMHO has done it to a T.

    OB XT or Legacy GT - Again my vote (we bought) the GT Limited. I think you will be pleased with either that best fills your needs and or wants.
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Okay, so in my continuing debate on which one to get, I went back to the dealer to try a 5MT and 5EAT GT back-to-back.

    This time, I drove a GT Ltd 5MT sedan with the optional short throw shifter w/Momo knob. I personally did not care for the short throw shifter as it looked out of proportion to the dash like some overgrown metallic mushroom. While the throws were definitely shorter, I didn't like the added effort. Not for me, thanks.

    Back to the engine. The 5MT definitely feels solid off the line. Power is right there and helped me to cut across three lanes on the road outside of the dealership to get onto the freeway on ramp. Down and upshifting on the freeway was smooth thanks to the improved flywheel and it's easy to keep drivetrain shock to a minimum. With the 5MT I could really get a feel for this fantastic engine. It just pulls so linearly it makes it feel like a bigger displacement NA engine. Pure fun.

    Back to the dealership, I get into a 5EAT Ltd Wagon. Trying to cut across the same road wasn't as much fun. The wagon moves along leisurely until the RPMs hit around 2500-3000 and then things take off. I drove the exact same course as with the sedan.

    Merging onto freeway traffic requires some pre-planning as you need to wait for the turbo to completely spool up. Once things got moving, the shifting using the steering wheel buttons seemed quick enough. What I think subtracts from the 5EAT feel of "quickness" is the fact that there is so little drivetrain shock. You'll thumb the button and need to do a double take to see that it had in fact downshifted.

    While smoothness is good, the tranny does take away from feeling in control with the engine. I hated to think of it, but I felt that my wife's Jetta VR6 automatic seemed to have better throttle response. It's not as powerful, but tap the throttle and the car moves forward.

    So, I'm seriously considering doing an about-face and having the dealer change my order for a 5MT. I really want VTD and I also wanted the flexibility of a wife-friendly car, but I'm just not getting the warm fuzzies from Sportshift. I think I'm living a true need-desire dilemma here!

    Ken
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    legacy191legacy191 Member Posts: 29
    Ken, I can understand your delima... my wife does not want to learn how to drive the 5MT, so I'm stuck getting the 5EAT with the sportshift. I have the same concern about the quickness of shifting with the 5EAT. My mechanic is checking to see if there is anything he could do about it...

    Tony T
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    rsorganizersorganize Member Posts: 131
    Thanks, Craig...it IS sweet. The more I drive - and look at - it, the more happy I am that I bought it. (Am I supposed to be happy?)

    Strikes me that the Sportshift, when left to operate on its own, makes the car MUCH quicker. My 13 year old, who desperately wanted me to buy the OB XT Ltd MT, thinks this almost makes the VDC worthwhile. Are there any limitations on the use of the Sportshift - the manual doesn't offer much information?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Congrats Richard, you may have the first '05 VDC among us.

    Coincidentally, I just read in Autoweek that you are 7 (or was it 8?) times more likely to get in a collision in a skid if you do not have stability control. So know that and be happier than Woody Allen. ;-)

    Thomas: the WRX is the performance bargain, or an F-XT if you need a little more space. I've seen 2004s dip below $23k, and those are plenty of fun.

    I just double-checked something - our coupon was in my brother's name. He just bought a 2004 Legacy, so the name must've been fresh in their database. My wife has a 2002 Legacy and did *not* get the coupon. I registered at need-desire and I didn't get one, either.

    Ken: keep in mind the wagon is a bit heavier. You should have driven a manual wagon and an auto sedan! Time to go back again...LOL!

    I'll be in the same position when I'm shopping, though. I think on an F-XT I'd go with the manual, but with the Legacy GT I'd go for the VTD and the extra ratio plus the Sportshift buttons.

    I can't believe I'm even saying that. But - in my case I have two cars and the other is a manual.

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I know you said you weren't considering the H-6, but you may want to take one out for a test drive. The power is more linear than that of the turbo, and it is a 5EAT/SportShift, but not with the button-shifting feature. You've got nothing to lose by driving one ahead of time.

    Bob
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    c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    What you're describing is exactly the way turbocharged 4-cyl engines behave when coupled to an automatic transmission. The torque converter saps a smidge of power out of the engine, but more importantly, it alters the backpressure characteristics of the exhaust system somewhat, and this loads the turbo up less. The end result is that turbo lag is much more evident.

    On a MT car, where there is a direct mechanical connection between the wheels and the engine, the resistance of the road loads up the engine which gets the exhaust flow going and spins up the turbo. On an AT car, the resistance of the road gets alleviated due to slippage in the torque converter. Thus, the engine sees less load, the exhaust flow is not as strong, and the turbo spools less.

    You can study this effect on a MT car, at least the extremes of the effect. Put it in idle and rev the engine, and the turbo gauge barely moves. No load on the engine in that case equals low boost. Now, put the car in 1st with the parking brake on. Gently rev the motor as you let the clutch out, and the boost will rise dramatically. The load on the engine produces a much stronger exhaust flow. The auto transmission car is somewhere in between these two extremes.

    So, if you want to extract all the fun out of that motor, MT is the only way to go. If you want a more livable solution and can sacrifice some power go with AT. The tradeoffs are simple!

    Craig
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The manual is crazy-stupid-fast.

    The auto is merely stupid-fast.

    ;-)

    -juice
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    kevin111kevin111 Member Posts: 991
    1st - what Juice said - Wagon is heavier than the sedan, thus less slow

    2nd - New Auto, thus the automatic has yet to adjust to your driving characteristics. So it seems sluggish. Once broken in, the car should seem more lively. Noticed this testdriving auto WRXs. One new, the other had been on the lot a while, and driven quite a bit. The new one seemed lethargic, the one that was driven took off like a bat out of hell!!!

    One final note - from the link mentioned in post
    (2273) ConsumerGuide report by rellom

    http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/- 38236

    the paragraph at the bottom states:

    News: You might also look for a sportier Legacy sedan and/or wagon--with perhaps some 300 hp--to build on the sales-boosting image of Subaru's youth-favored Impreza WRX and STi models. Though strictly our guess, these hot Legacys are easily doable if Subaru wishes, though they probably wouldn't arrive until 2006 or '07.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    about the turbo lag being more noticeable with an automatic. Unless the turbo is engineered to spool up just off idle (as they do on large turbo-diesel trucks), I'm afraid it's just going to be part of the equation.

    Bob
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    spindoctorspindoctor Member Posts: 5
    Exactly how much profit does the dealer make if they are selling for invoice in the Partner's Program? Can you get the same deal without the discount coupon?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I believe there is a 2% holdback, but they won't operate at those margins and stay in business for long. They gotta eat!

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Here's where Mike's argument: "There's no replacement for displacement" comes into play. Automatics are great with large, lazy-tuned engines, and to date, Subaru doesn't offer such an engine.

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll happily accept the lag for the fuel economy that comes with the smaller displacement engine off boost. The lag's not that bad at all.

    -juice
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    kevin111kevin111 Member Posts: 991
    "Here's where Mike's argument: "There's no replacement for displacement" comes into play. Automatics are great with large, lazy-tuned engines, and to date, Subaru doesn't offer such an engine."

    - I would think the H6 qualifies, no?
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I would think the H6 qualifies, no?

    No, not at all. The 3.0 engine is tuned as a high-revving engine, and not a stump-pulling torquer. I'm talking about an engine of 3.5 (at least) and tuned with a flat, even powerband. I'm sure Mike would say nothing under 5.0L would qualify, however. :)

    Bob
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    rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    Interestingly, according to

    http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/H%20engine

    the "H" designation on the subaru engines is a misnomer. An "H" engine is two flat engines one on top of the other using the same crankshaft. The subaru engines should be considered flat fours or flat sixes but not H's.

    Eric
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Actually the "H" refers to "Horizontally Opposed," as in "boxer" format.

    Bob
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    rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    that works! It's all in how you use it. :)

    I didn't know the difference between H config engines and flat boxers until now.

    Interestingly, the article mentions Saab using the H designation on one of their engines when it was in fact an in-line 4. Go figure...

    Eric
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The labels make no sense, mine is an EJ25 engine but there are no E or J shaped parts on it!

    -juice
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    dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    "I'll happily accept the lag for the fuel economy that comes with the smaller displacement engine off boost"

    I did not think the turbo 2.5 offered any gains in fuel economy over a larger displacement engine. It gets 19/24 with the automatic. In comparison, both the BMW 745Li and Mercedes S430 get 18/26 mpg. They are huge with large V-8 engines and weigh well over 1,000 lbs more than the Subaru.

    To be sure the Subaru turbo is fast, and fun to drive, but I don't think efficient is part of the deal.

    I am interested in the new 2005 wagon with a manual tranny that gets 23/30 mpg, which is a nice improvement from last year. For me the base engine has plenty of oomph. Now if the turbo came with no penalty in efficiency, then that might change my mind.
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Hey guys, thanks for all your responses and helping me think through this one. Believe it or not I actually woke up early this morning because I started thinking about the two.

    Craig: Thanks for the detailed write up. That makes perfect sense.

    Bob: I may try a H6 just for comparison. But I'm fairly certain that I want the GT trim this time around. If I do get a H6, I would probably go whole hog and get the VDC wagon, though.

    juice: I've driven a 5EAT sedan too and it felt about the same.

    What to do... What to do...

    Ken
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    ntk1ntk1 Member Posts: 57
    I am picking up my GT sedan MT silver tomorrow, will post first impressions in a couple of days
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    zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Ken,

    I just came back from my test drive of the '05 OB 2.5i, and in the manual transmission it offers a sporting, peppy ride. Better yet, my wife loved it (fortunately, she is an MT person too).

    For reasons that the more technically inclined folk on this site might be able to explain, the gearing in 4th is significantly better than in the '04 Forester that I drove (the Forester kept wanting to go into 5th, but once there, did not have enough torque to take on the hills around here).

    The interior is very nicely done (we looked at the limited), though the door handle is in a clumsy spot.

    She's ready to sign; I want to try the XT before deciding.

    Zman
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What about the S class 4Matic, though? 17/24 with AWD. Ultra-tall gearing gets those highway EPA numbers, too.

    And to match the Subaru's performance you'd probably have to give AMG a call...

    It's the gearing, not the engine itself, that choses performance over economy on the GT.

    Zman: could be aerodynamics coming into play. Forester is boxy and Legacy is svelte. My Forester is more fuel efficient at slower speeds, for instance.

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm just thinking, if you really want a 5EAT, maybe the H-6 is the better choice for that tranny. Unfortunately, as you know, you will give up a degree of handling for that privilege, since it's only available on the taller Outback.

    Bob
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    zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Juice,

    Could well be the aerodynamics. I just wondered if something else happened (after all, the EPA estimates for mpg changed on almost all the '05 as compared to the '04).

    Zman
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I know, I thought it was funny that the MT5 Forester went from 21/27 (my 1998 at least) all the way to 23/30 with the same gearing and displacement.

    They said it was the throttle-by-wire re-programmed.

    I hope it's more linear. My wife's 2002 Legacy has a very non-linear throttle, it's all or nothing. Much harder to drive smoothly than my Forester.

    I should go sample one.

    I also heard the '05 Forester gets more ground clearance?

    -juice
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    Yeah, I am considering that too. If I want the ultimate family cruiser right now, the VDC fits the best. But unfortunatley, that's only part of what I'm shopping for -- I wanted a fun yet pratical daily commuter for me.

    But it wouldn't hurt to try.

    Ken
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    mcjaymcjay Member Posts: 7
    Hi, I am from Vancouver, Canada.

    I am just wondering if anyone from Canada got their new legacy under MSRP. If so, what's the model and by how much.

    I am currently negotiating with my dealer now, can't wait to get it over with.

    Thanks.
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    grove4grove4 Member Posts: 95
    Alot of knowledge being thrown around here with the larger displacement vs smaller turbo.The post above about the auto/trans turbo spool up is right on.My auto fxt even with the low gearing takes a second from a dead stop until it wants to get up and move as opposed to the legacy GT 5sp.As far as mileage goes a subaru will always be a little less with all things being equal b/c it is AWD all the time.Now if you compare an outback with a X-terra or a Murano or even a Honda pilot the subaru faires pretty well in fuel mileage and performance.Another thing is a smaller turbo has less weight hanging over the front wheels so handling should be better.Hey,the way I see it is at least subaru gives you a choice on engines instead of the wimpy n/a four cyl and a V6.You can get a turbo 4 or a smooth 250hp H6.The one thing I am concerned about is gas prices going up and everyone else going with hybrid technology and subaru being left behind.I hear the new accord will have better peformance than the 240hp one now with civic gas mileage.Other manufactures will get better accelleration with electric motors and better gas mileage to boot.Will subaru be still slapping turbos on and getting only 25 mpg on premium?This wont be to much of an issue real soon if gas prices come down some and stay there.However, if hybrid technology is as great as what I am reading about then why would anybody not want it.This was a concern for me b/c I traded an accord for this legacy GT.And I got it when gas prices were the highest about a month ago with the accord getting 20 city 30hwy.All on regular gas unlike the subaru.But I really wanted the Legacy and thought prices were going to come down.I just think the doors to hybrid technology will open in a big way a few months from now and I just hope 4 or 5 years from now I am not stuck with car nobody wants b/c of the cost of operation.I see the posts about a 300hp legacy sti and I honestly think that if by then that 300hp isnt getting 40 or so mpg it is not going to be very desireable.Maybe subaru has some plans we dont know about and I hope they do.
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    kevin111kevin111 Member Posts: 991
    Right now it is mainly Toyota and Honda producing the Hybrid technology.

    In other words, it is the large-manufacturer's game right now. Toyota and Honda have the revenue for their R&D that Subaru just does not have. Unless GM helps out.

    I believe Ford used Toyota's technology to build a hybrid Escape. GM is supposed to come out with a hybrid truck, but not sure who's technology they will use (if it is not their own).

    Honda's technology is simple while Toyota's system is extremely complex.

    FYI

    Toyota is planning on going hog wild with the Hybrid technology in the next few years.
    - The Hybrid RX400 and Highlander are comming out later this year (more power than earlier models)
    - A Hybrid sports car to replace the MR2 is comming out around 2008, with an approximate 300hp.
    - A new Lexus sports division (to compete with AMG) will be comming out with Hybrid sports versions of the LS and GS versions (the GS producing approximately 479 hp).

    All per Car and Driver
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    dsattlerdsattler Member Posts: 135
    According to my sales guy, when a dealer sells a car at invoice as part of the VIP program Subaru gives them some extra cash to make up for the low profit margin. I don't know how much and didn't ask.
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    njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    but we have to come up with a new fence club for ken
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    luck11luck11 Member Posts: 425
    Check out the Subaru Crew - Canadian Owners thread.

    luck11 "Subaru Crew: Canadian Owners" May 25, 2004 3:28pm

    shizumaat picked up an XT in your neck of the woods (somewhat) for $900 under MSRP (which, IMHO, is very good considering models were just released here), but have not heard any other reports to date. Unfortunately, we don't have same purchasing power as as customers in the US. Therefore, if you can purchase for 2-3% over invoice, you have paid a fair price. But its too early.....demand is high. In this case, as with anything new on the market, the early bird gets the worm, but pays dearly for it. If you can wait a few months, you'll be able to negotiate a better deal. I waited 'till fall for my 00 OB and negotiated a very fair deal. Plan to do the same for my when I trade up to an 05.
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    luck11luck11 Member Posts: 425
    http://www.subarulegacy.ca
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Is it possible to "custom" order a Subaru? Specificially, a basic Legacy 2.5i 4A? And if it is possible, assuming that We'd like to take delivery in mid-October, when would be an appropriate time to order the car?

    Thanks!

    All these awesome reviews, commentaries, and purchases- make me want to drive away in one RIGHT NOW!!

    ~alpha

    PS- A while back someone posted that the Legacy Turbo is rated at 19/24.... I thought it was 19/25.... not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.
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    dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Automatic is 19/24 manual is 19/26. Last year was 18/23 and 19/23 for the Forrester, so it is a little better.
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Just checked the brochure- says 19/25. Are we talking OB or Legacy here? Same ratings for manual and auto, and sedan and wagon. Are the figures published in the literature wrong?

    ~alpha
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I'm on a roll. I took up Bob's advice of checking out the H6 models and seeing if the 5EAT behaved any differently. This is my third test drive since last Thursday. ;-)

    Anyway , it was back to the local dealer to take a LL Bean out for a test drive. Unfortunatley, they had no VDCs on the lot. This was my first time in a 05 Outback and the higher ground clearnce is pretty evident. The interior with the wood inlay steering wheel has a more country club feel to it. Nicely done with the exception of the Momo AT shift knob. It looks *completely* out of place.

    The 5EAT with H6 does tip-in a bit stronger than with the 2.5T. That comes as no surprise as the extra 0.5L of displacement are right there. However, acceleration afterwards is unrushed and consistent all the way to redline. Overall it's a great package for composed driving, but it's not a thrilling ride.

    A few conering moves and the longer travel suspension makes itself noticed. There is quite a bit more body lean in the LL Bean, something I'm accustomed to with the Forester. Steering feels nicely weighted and the vehicle likes to track very straight.

    Overall it was a nice and polished ride, but it's not what I was looking for.

    After the drive, the salesperson offers a spin in a GT wagon, 5EAT. Sure, why not and we're off again.

    I don't know what it was this time, but the GT 5EAT felt stronger. When coming off a start, the pause until the rush of power hit seemed shorter and the engine/tranny overall more responsive. I was having fun!

    Could this be the same combination I had driven before? I know for a fact that I was driving a different vehicle than my previous test drive. Could there be a big vehicle-to-vehicle variation? Or was it simply the contrast after coming off the LL Bean model?

    The previous GT 5EAT I drove already had 168 miles on it and was obviously PDIed. The one I drove this afternoon was not fully PDIed (check engine light was on) and only had 28 miles so I don't think it could have been an issue of how broken in the tranny was. Maybe the previous model was filled with 87 octane gas?

    Anyway, I'm thinking I should sample a few more 5EATs before jumping to the 5MT camp. My dealer informed me that the Subaru had an early order cut off this month (for August delivery) so if I change my configuration, I'm looking at a September delivery now. Otherwise, I still have a 5EAT GT arriving in a few more weeks!

    Ken
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    zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    Ken,

    I notice that Swampy allocated a new fence club just for you (#2336). Since I don't have one to myself, I wonder if I could park there just for a while, if you don't mind (oh, and my wife, too--pretty demanding aren't we?).

    Here's the scoop:

    1. We have finally decided on the '05 OB MT. That's progress, considering we've been at this for almost a year (but, boy, I admit it's a lot of fun! And waiting for the '05 to come out was really worth it).

    2. Were going for the Limited package. I want leather and my wife wants the moonroof. We both want the upgraded audio system. So, that part of the puzzle has worked out, too.

    3. Atlantic Blue Pearl over Granite Grey Opal (who comes up with these color names?)

    4. Ooops! Here's the rub: 2.5i (the wife's choice). 2.5t (guess whose choice that is?) Anyone care to weigh in or vote on this issue? I have not driven the OB-XT, and they are hard to find still, especially in the MT, but I loved my test drive of the F-XT, and I'm expecting more or less similar results with the OB-XT.

    Hmmm....looks like we've got some work still to do, but my dealer said the same thing about allocations. It may be wisest just to wait until September, and pull it off then. Plus, there might be a touch more wiggle room then, and maybe gas prices will be more settled as well.

    Zman

    p.s. we're willing to pay rent.
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    jwatsjwats Member Posts: 72
    I was curious as to whether a couple of favorable reviews have been building early traffic and sales in Subaru dealers. This is a watershed product and launch for them, and you aren't " new" for long. Has anyone heard dealer feedback? are prices tightening up?

    Thanks
    John
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    andmoonandmoon Member Posts: 320
    I got my $25 test drive cert. in a mag/brochure yesterday and I saw that all models get dual exhaust with equal length headers. ( I think the picture was a na motor with two cats joining (2 to 1) then going to the back of the car with the usual cat/resonator/ muffler but instead of ending with a single can, a pipe leads from the left to the right to another can. I have a feeling the 2nd can is more for looks than performance.
     
    Does anyone know where the turbo sits in the leg/ob? It has to be close to the intercooler but that is right above the trans/diff/diff.

    In the wrx the left headers come over to the right and join the right ones before going to the turbo on the top right of the trans/center/front diff. not equal length.

    Don
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    bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    No matter how many times I read the posts here, I always get thrown back to the middle of the posts (page 62, etc.).

    It's making it difficult to keep up with Ken's tranny dilemma. :-)

    Any tips??

    -Dennis
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    brupopbrupop Member Posts: 63
    Dennis, try SUBSCRIBING to this board. If you already do, maybe one of the moderators/staff can suggest something.

    GregB
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Ken, as I said earlier, get in as many test drives ahead of your purchase. That's the only way you'll get the answers you need—and it seems to be working. :)

    Whatever you ultimately end up with, I think you will then know deep down that you made the right decision.

    Bob
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    njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    ken, i believe your prior test drive order was MT than EAT. i think coming from the OB to EAT made the EAT issues not so noticeable.

    btw, you know you really want the MT.....

    i am also amazed at how strong some of our members are here. i cant visit a dealership unless i know i am buying a car.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    alpha: I'd order it 6-8 weeks before you wanted to take delivery.

    Ken: maybe that one had been on a few more test drives, and driven hard?

    Bottom line? Test drive YOUR car before you take delivery. If you feel it's hesitating, try another one. It's best if you're slightly flexible on color and options.

    -juice
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Thanks everyone for chiming in. Lots of great advice!

    Yes, I think the key is to test drive and test drive until I'm sure. The only problem is that the dealership I'm buying from is far away and I've overextended my welcome at the local locations. :-)

    juice: Driven harder, maybe, but it had the least number of miles out of all the 5EAT wagons I've driven; hence the discrepancy.

    Ken
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