Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

goneskiian · June 2004

Thanks for your impressions reils!

Glad to hear you're enjoying the new XT!

-Ian

jim1969 · June 2004

Is the compass mirror in the Limited Legacys still have the direction in green? My wife's 2002 Forester is green to match the color of the console lights but the new interior console color is red. Did Suburu change the compass to red to match? If not it'll be the only green in there and look out of place. I'm awaiting the arrival of my Limited which has the white-blue electroluminescent gauges which also doesn't match the green on the compass. Does anyone have a GT Limited with the compass to answer this question. Thanks.

chassol · June 2004

In our 2005 GT Limited it's still green. The vendor of the mirrors will probably not change the color (green) for just one auto manufacturer.

beanboy · June 2004

I think the Forester XT has the low-end grunt as well, and was looking forward to Subaru offering another every day car with some power from a stop. I really need to test drive a GT MT and see how it compares to the WRX (unacceptable) and Forester XT (WOOHOO!).

stickguy · June 2004

I don't know what you qualify as low end grunt, but the GT 5 speed I drove got going real fast real quick. Unless you are planning to tow a yacht, I don't think you will pine for more power.

snowbird · June 2004

Thank you for your observations. Can you shed some light on your braking experiences? Does the car take long to stop? Does the pedal feel "rubbery"? Thanks.

kmartin · June 2004

Actually the gearshift indiciator (AT only?) is also green. Just think of you car's interior as a Christmas tree at night...all year long :-)

-KarenM-

kmartin · June 2004

Snowbird, check out my post from yesterday regarding brakes. Mine are quite firm and very responsive. Rather predictable, I would say.

kmartin Jun 29, 2004 8:15pm

ateixeira · June 2004

I see more and more people are falling off The Fence! Congrats.

MT vs auto, the debate will never end. I've long been a supporter of the manual, but two kids and 10 hours of traffic last Thanksgiving made me a little more open minded.

Here's the thing - with a small 4 cylinder, an automatic often robs all the fun. Turn on the A/C and it can be even slow.

Subaru's engines are torquey and actually handle a slushbox a little better than most. The base 2.5i model has more torque than a Honda S2000, for instance.

The WRX has a small displacement engine, off boost it's your basic economy car, docile and efficient. But it does lag more with the auto.

Thing is, the 2.5T is a gem of an engine, torque is there much sooner, lots more of it, too. It mates up very nicely to the auto.

Add to that the fact that the auto for the GT now has 5 ratios. And Sportshift. And better adaptive shifts. Even gas mileage!

The trade-off is much smaller than it used to be. You have enough torque that it's still fun, so you sacrifice little for the convenience in bumper to bumper traffic with 2 crying kids in the back seat.

If you're buying, say, a Toyota Echo, a manual is a must-have. The auto robs what little torque there is and fuel mileage tanks compared to the manual. But that's not the case with the new Subies.

Just my opinion.

-juice

rangner · June 2004

Overall well said! But not sure about comparing torque figures to the S2000--it's only a 2.2L four. So the subie has thereabout 0.3L of extra displacement.

I agree subie boxers are torquey, but it seems like it comes in only at 3k rpm. IMO tuning the flat four and six for more low end torque would have greatly improved driveability. The turbos accomplish this to some extent, but they could also do it across the board.

My theory is it's all about marketing. When people hear that X car makes 250 hp and Y car makes 210 hp, they immediately conclude that car X is better. Though it may be in 0-60, it may not be in around town utility. So they end up buying car X even though car Y may better fit their needs.

Eric

sandwood · June 2004

What are people betting that a ecu chip and exhaust will add to a gt? Around 50 hp? (plus torque, hopefully down low) I have to admit, this car with 300hp is a yet more entertaining consideration than stock. I previously owned an A4 that went from 150hp stock to around 210 with a chip, exhaust and intake. It never had the slightest reliability issues and was much, much more fun to drive.

A 300 hp GT would give audi s4's, m3's and other serious sport sedans and sportscars a run for their money.

ateixeira · June 2004

Does Honda even sell an automatic S2000? They probably shouldn't bother...it would be a dog.

I'd like to see AVCS address the exact issue you're mentioning. The H6 gets it, and it certainly adequate. I'd like to see the 2.5l get it, though.

By the way, the new Drive makes a mistake when they imply that all the Legacy engines get AVCS, only the turbo and the H6 do.

Another mistake - AVCS only acts on the intake valves, I believe, the article says it acts on both intake and exhaust valves.

-juice

rangner · June 2004

Amen brother!

I've said from the beginning that leaving AVCS off the base model was a mistake.

I've read something confusing on the need-desire site I think. It says that the GT/XT gets AVCS explained as variable valve timing and lift, and the H-6 gets AVCS and something called AVLS. Am i missing something here?

Anyway I'd like to see subaru play with the valve controls a bit for a concept car and make a jake brake/exhaust brake for one of their vehicles--maybe the baja--just for kicks. It might give it the ooh factor like carrying a 4X8 piece of plywood that says "I mean business!"

Eric

njswamplands · June 2004

if so, how did it feel?

ateixeira · June 2004

AVCS = active valve control system (i.e. timing)

AVLS = active valve lift system?

No swampy, smooth on the brakes on the oval. In fact they mostly would just lift off the throttle.

On the infield track I did brake hard at the end of the straight away - actually scrubbed off a bit too much speed. The GT has serious anchors and the tires to put down the stopping power, IMO.

-juice

kens · June 2004

juice,

"The trade-off is much smaller than it used to be."

Exactly.

Ken

ateixeira · June 2004

When I was in high school, I remember car shopping and automatic meant THREE speeds and awful performance with 25 mpg if you were lucky from an extremely slow FWD car.

A peppy and efficient five-speed was a no-brainer.

Now the 5EAT is peppy and efficient...

-juice

Karen_S · June 2004

For those off the fence and happily driving, please take a bit of time and write a review! Click on "Rate it".

2005 Subaru Legacy

2005 Subaru Outback

Thanks!

kens · June 2004

juice,

Come on down off that fence! It's not going to be the same without you owning the same Subaru as I. I need my partner to start the Project Legacy GT Wagon STi. ;-)

Ken

rsholland · June 2004

No they didn't, nor did I.

Bob

ateixeira · June 2004

Wish I could, that's not even a pipe dream right now since we're house poor for a while. We should recover in a year or two, though.

Honestly if one of my cars blew up right now I think I'd be stuck with just one car for a while, at least.

-juice

cbell · June 2004

If you extrapolate from the current tuning options for the Forester XT, the most notable thing is the (wait for it) "area under the curve". In this comparison, peak torque moved down about 1,000 RPM. All of that extra low-down grunt is what you'll really notice in daily driving, especially with the 5EAT. -cheers, cbell

nygreg · June 2004

stated that Subaru redesigned the brake booster to reduce play and increase firmness.

Greg

ateixeira · June 2004

Yeah, peak torque is at 3600rpm, that's pretty early. Actually a lot earlier than it is for the non-turbo.

We'll have to start talking about non-turbo lag. LOL

-juice

jim1969 · June 2004

Could anyone tell me what the invoice is on this car? I live in Long Island,NY. I have an idea from this site and cars101.com but they have different costs. My dealer wants $500+invoice. I want to be sure of what invoice is. Thanks.

kens · June 2004

Try Edmund's New Car Prices. Just scroll to the top of the screen and click on the appropriate tab.

You'll also get TMV pricing which will give you an idea of what folks are actually paying in your area.

Wow, I'm starting to sound like a Town Hall Host!

Ken

njswamplands · June 2004

have a street full of subarus in front of the condo???

ateixeira · June 2004

The funny thing is our daughter is booked in so many camps this summer that we've only gone there a couple of times!

-juice

rsq798 · June 2004

I've noticed the same stutter. I thought maybe it was a problem with my particular car but I see others are feeling it also so maybe I won't worry about it as much for now. If anybody figures this out, I too would love to know the reason behind it also.

rsq798 · June 2004

Anybody else buy a GT Ltd in New England? My dealer offered $400 "over invoice," which turned out to be another ~$400 over "true invoice." When questioned, they said that Subaru of New England charged its dealers a little more, including at least a couple hundred dollar fee. That reminded me of the $275 advertising fee that was mentioned in http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy/legacy2005.html#price, and I still got it for $27.5 after dest. charge so I wasn't really complaining.

ateixeira · June 2004

SoNE does have different pricing vs. SoA for the rest of the country. A strange little monopoly they have for distribution in the NE.

-juice

rsq798 · June 2004

Another thing, I had told the dealer that I had just joined IMBA a couple months ago (which was true) and that I was just as willing to wait another 4 months to get the car at invoice than pay too much right now (which was also true). Later on, the dealer said that their "invoice" of ~$400 over true invoice ($26,763 for manual GT Ltd) was in fact the VIP program price.

Another tidbit as I saw this question asked earlier, the dealer said that normally they get another $300 back from Subaru for selling a car on the VIP program. So they were making about as much on me as if I had gone through the VIP program.

rsq798 · June 2004

That's good to know. In that case, one would think that KBB, NADA, Edmunds, etc., would be able to tell you the localized invoice given that we input our area codes?

ateixeira · June 2004

Now that is true, VIP cars do end up with a small credit to the dealer from Subaru. I hadn't heard the amount until now, though.

-juice

paisan · June 2004

The reason we are getting the 5EAT is two fold, one because my wife has this problem of wearing three inch heels to work every day and to she doesn't want to learn how to drive one.

Is she a dancer? Hee Hee

-mike

rsorganize · June 2004

Got my 3.0R OB Ltd. Wagon (VDC) for $300 over the invoices I saw on Edmunds and other places. (Fair trade-in value, too.) Stacy Subaru in Brattleboro Vt.

goneskiian · June 2004

And this is just with their stage 1 power package (an ECU reflash to you and me)!

Here's a link to their info about this package:

http://cobbtuning.com/forester/power-s.html#stage1

I think their Legacy GT reflash and exhaust should easily get you upwards of 300 hp maybe more (their claiming 280 for the Forester XT Stage 2 package).

BTW, I just got my oil changed at 1177 miles. The service advisor looked at me a bit funny and tried to explain that having the oil changed after the first 1000 miles was out dated advice and that new cars don't need this done. Maybe he's right, but I feel it's better to be safe than sorry. Besides, I won't have to pay for any more oil changes as they offer a program of free oil changes for life with a new car purchase. ;-)

Cheers!
-Ian

kens · June 2004

Ian,

It is better safe than sorry. I will probably be changing the oil at 1000 miles myself.

Ken

ntk1 · June 2004

Ian
I thought I read somewhere that overly frequent oil changes on a new engine could slow down the bedding in process ? I think that practice stopped when new engines shedded metal fragments into the oil.
I am interested to hear you appear to have the same stutter/hesitation problem as me, I intend to wait until the 1000 miles run in period has passed and then take a visit to the dealer - has anyone else noticed this ? Patti any news/advice

Pete

jchagtdi · June 2004

There is the true invoice, which is what the dealer pays for the car, but dealers must also pay a compulsory advertising fee. Carsdirect.com's "invoice price" is actually invoice + ad fee.

In case anyone in New England was wondering, Subaru of New England is owned by the Boch "Automile" family. In 1999, Boch's Subaru distribution firm was sued by several Subaru dealers, claiming the cars it provided were padded with unwanted options to boost profits at their expense. The company and Boch disputed the allegations. The suit, filed at U.S. District Court in Concord, N.H., has yet to go to trial.

snowbird · June 2004

kmartin. Thanks for the post and reassurances.

rsq798 · June 2004

Thanks for the pointer to carsdirect.com. Never heard of it before. So looking at the page for the Legacy GT Ltd, it seems that I was not charged the $100 advertising fee but the $20 dest. surcharge and the $370 NE Subaru Distributor Invoice Charge, which brings me to about what was quoted to me as dealer cost. Strangely enough (for getting overcharged by SoNE), that makes me feel a whole lot better.

k9noles · June 2004

Hello-Been pushing our GT Limited Sedan 5MT around a little-about 500 miles so far, but I haven't noticed the problem you referenced. Was it betweeen 1-2 or 2-3? I'll pay closer attention, in case we're picking up on a model-wide bug here...Thanks...

Steve in Denver

paisan · June 2004

I've found that carpoint.com has the most accurite invoice pricing (as per my buddy who is a car salesman)

-mike

ntk1 · June 2004

Hi Steve - The problem is most noticeable in 2nd and 3rd, it is more pronounced with moderate throttle ie mild/medium acceleration, it is also more evident at cold/mildly warm engine temperatures. Another manifestitation can be seen if I hold 3rd gear at lowish constant speed (say 30 mph) then the car seems to be quite jerky (similar to an old fashioned intermittant mis-fire)
A little odd but there are at least 3 readers here with similar problems
Pete

c_hunter · June 2004

The 02-03 WRX has similar behavior (browse over on NASIOC). It was real apparent to me when my 03 was new, but I hardly notice it now. Two things that helped smooth out the engine were installation of a grounding kit and the Prodrive exhaust. Can't say which one had the most impact, though I suspect the grounding kit had a small effect.

Craig

c_hunter · June 2004

Geez, I'm off on a 2 day business trip and you guys leave 81 posts to catch up on! We picked up a new silver TSX for my wife tonight. I was trying to steer her into a Legacy GT Ltd, but she was really in love with the TSX and I can't complain much -- it's a very slick car. We got it for $25K ($2K under MSRP and about $400 over invoice) which seems like a bargain to me considering the high equipment content. After driving the TSX and looking it over carefully, I have noticed all sorts of little convenience and luxury features. Acura did a really nice job with the car, and the size and feel is just what my wife was looking for. So I'm happy that she's happy.

The car is actually equipped a little better than a loaded Legacy GT Ltd, and that really astounds me for the price difference. And there are some features on the TSX you just can't get on the GT (HIDs, folding rear seat, stability control). I was thinking it was about a $2K difference between the GT and the TSX, but it's more like $4-5K when you take everything into account. For someone like my wife, who will benefit from stability control but not miss AWD, that $4-5K is a big factor (she also won't miss the extra 50HP from the GT).

The good news is that I put down the sizeable deposit on the TSX using my Subaru MasterCard, so it will earn points for my eventual OB XT or Leg GT wagon purchase!!

One other interesting note: this TSX is the first car I have driven with HID headlights. I was shocked by how sharp the cutoff pattern is -- there's actually a visible horizontal line out in the distance in the front/side views where the beam ends. That will take some getting used to. Otherwise, the HIDs do a great job.

Craig

paisan · June 2004

My guess is that the price difference in 2-3 months won't be so great...

Stability control v. AWD AWD is better IMHO v. the best 2wd stability control.

-mike

k9noles · June 2004

Pete-Ok, just came in from driving the GT, both highway and neighborhood cruising (beautiful night here in CO) and I think I know the time frame (in terms of shifting) that you're referring to. For the 2nd to 3rd thing, I have felt, maybe once or twice, a slight hesitation, but I've never owned a turbo, so I chalked it up to not having RPMs in the correct peak torque area for the gear. As for the 3rd gear jerky thing, the only way I could simulate that was to intentionally hammer the gas and then let up, repeatedly. Up to about 600 miles on the car now...

Don't know if that helps any or not, but I'll continue to pay extra close attention to the car's acceleration and shifting behavior...I'll continue to watch the board here, too-Great resource!

Steve

k9noles · June 2004

Pete-Ok, just came in from driving the GT, both highway and neighborhood cruising (beautiful night here in CO) and I think I know the time frame (in terms of shifting) that you're referring to. For the 2nd to 3rd thing, I have felt, maybe once or twice, a slight hesitation, but I've never owned a turbo, so I chalked it up to not having RPMs in the correct peak torque area for the gear. As for the 3rd gear jerky thing, the only way I could simulate that was to intentionally hammer the gas and then let up, repeatedly. Up to about 600 miles on the car now...

Don't know if that helps any or not, but I'll continue to pay extra close attention to the car's acceleration and shifting behavior...I'll continue to watch the board here, too-Great resource!

Steve

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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