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Comments
Now, not that I'd want trauma to the chest, but it sure beats instant death or severe injury by head trauma. From what I remember of trauma victims (it's been a while) the head injured didn't make it to us in the hospital, but even the serious chest injured survived. I would guess it's the head trauma that kills most people in side impacts with SUVs.
It is interesting that the IIHS side impact test differs so much from the NHTSA test in terms of torso and pelvic injury, if you compare the exact same car tested and ignore the head injury score. (look at the Accord without side airbags) Maybe it has to do with the size of the crash dummies? It's also odd that the rear passenger did well in the crash. The rear passenger would be subject to the same lateral force as the front passenger (although the intrusion may be less-but the picture showed damage all the way to the rear tire) I wonder if the IIHS test has been validated with any real world data? It's probably too new of a test, though. I wonder why so many cars do so poorly in this test? Maybe the insurance companies can use it to justify higher rates?
I fully agree with what I think Craig said- it may be that you put an average sized male in the same situation and the results may be very different. This is the problem with laboratory testing- it doesn't necessarily correlate with the real world. For example, the GM minivans did very poorly in the IIHS offset crash test- yet real world data showed in accidents it had some of the lowest injury ratings.
I would say that considering the safety engineering that went into this car, and how well it did with crash testing in Australia, that it is a safe car, and in fact far more than most of the other cars that have been tested. It did very well protecting the head, which is most important. It will be interesting to see how the NHTSA side impact testing goes. Until then, I will not overreact to the results of one test which contradicts other independent testing. It may also be that the wagon (and outback) do better in side impacts then the sedan (as the 04 legacy wagon did better than the sedan in the NHTSA side impact testing)
If you want to talk death trap, go look at a Ford Pinto.
tom
We have on test in Aus. that shows an exceptional side impact rating and a US test showing an Average rating.
I am going to unsubscribe to this group until you get back to talking about the Suburu driving/ownership experience instead of the hypothetical Suburu crash experience.
John
John
First, who is going to fund the actual crashing of 25 vehicles?? In reality, the variance in results should be extremely low - these are highly engineered, consistently manufactured products with very tight tolerances. The variability from vehicle to vehicle should be nil or close to it. Now it's possibile that IIHS got a bad unit twice, but I doubt it.
It's hard to make valid conclusions based on very limited data when trying to predict the performance of any machine under a wide range of conditions.
Again who's going to pay to test every possible scenario? The IIHS perfoms a consistent test in a consistent environment for everyone. No variability delivers results that can be compared.
In reality, the Legacy should still be an extremely safe automobile for the majority of the population. Keep in mind that the IIHS is funded by INSURANCE COMPANIES. They have a vested interest in determining what they consider a safe automobile.
Lastly, I was under the impression that many manufacturers are now conducting virtual crash tests using computer simulation during the design phase. These results should not be a total suprise anymore or there's some software tweaking to be done.
Oh I know, I probably should've used a ;-) emoticon in the last message. (There, fixed it. ;-))
There seems to be a lot of confusion over the differences between the NHTSA, ANCAP (Australia), and IIHS side tests. It seems to me that the biggest difference is the size and shape of the impact sled. The IIHS sled is both higher off the ground and has a greater top to bottom dimension in order to simulate an SUV. In contrast, the NHTSA and ANCAP tests are designed to simulate a car. The sleds impact the test vehicle lower in the body. Additionally, the sizes of the dummies differ significantly. ANCAP (and I believe NHTSA) uses a 50th percentile adult. IIHS uses a 5th percentile female.
I think it's unlikely that IIHS will ever test the Outback, as they apparently view it as essentially the same as the Legacy. They've never tested an Outback previously. However, with side impacts I suspect there could be differences. In looking at the 2004 NHTSA tests, the Legacy sedan received 3 stars. The Legacy wagon got 4 stars. The Outback wagon was awarded 5 stars. Apparently the ride height difference helped when being impacted by a car, even without any side airbags. It will be interesting to see the 2005 NHTSA results, as well as the EURONCAP results from Europe.
While I've probably been just as disappointed as many of the rest of you, I think it is important to remember that we're dealing with probabilities and a continuum of possibilities. It seems very possible that the 2005s will do well against cars in side impacts, but not so well against SUVs, at least at these test speeds. But about half or more of the vehicles on the road are still cars rather than trucks or SUVs. Additionally, given that the 2005s do extremely well in a frontal impact, perhaps they could protect their passengers in such a crash at even higher speeds, while possibly still providing some side impact protection at speeds lower than used in the IIHS test.
Perhaps I'm not doing a very good job of explaining myself, but I think it's important to look at risk from a broader perspective. If one walks in a city or rides a bike, they are facing far more risk than in most cars, let alone the 2005 Legacy. Moreover, the 2005s are certainly more safe than cars such as my 1996 Legacy. Without a doubt, I would like the 2005s to do better, and they should. But driving a 2005 probably wouldn't raise my global or calendar-year exposure to various risks much over driving a new Accord or Camry. That is certainly not to say that Subaru doesn't need to do better though. I certainly expect them to make changes.
Doug
If I really felt the car was dangerous, I wouldn't haul my 6 month old around in it. I know that you can't control everything, but I think that alert, defensive driving (even in a fairly aggressive car) is a better way to remain injury free then to drive on the edge and hope for the car to bail you out when you screw up.
That said, I'll pass on the Ford Pinto.
drew
Snowbird: The reason for the change is that the IIHS added an all new second side-impact simulation to their test this year.
Ken
Ken- I'm jealous- I'm still a ways from 1000 miles (I never thought I'd wish I had a longer commute!) Do you think 900 is enough? How about 8? 7? ;-)
Drew- You'll notice they crash tested a 2.5i. With a GT you'd have avoided being hit! ;-)
Does anyone know if you can adjust the position of the gas and brake pedals? They're a little far apart for me to heel toe easily. Maybe it's just practice and maybe it's because I'm still not aggressively driving, but it seems the gas pedal is too low or the brake pedal too high. Lateral distance seems ok. Anyone else with a MT, or who have driven the MT, have any thoughts or comments? I looked at the pedals of my friends WRX and they seemed more level with each other.
I got a call from Subaru saying they are sending my free maintenance coupons!
tom
I bought a new 40GB Click Wheel iPod at the Apple Store earlier this week. I looked at three different FM options, and after conferring with several of the Apple folks finally settled on the DLO TransPod FM transmitter. It has the charger, stand and transmitter all-in-one. I plugged my stand into the cigarette lighter, used various-shaped adapters (all come with the TransPod), I rigged it up so that I can reach and read it while I am driving (don't try this at home) I can also unplug it all and stow it away where no one can see it.
My Apple salesman said this unit has much better sound quality than the Belkin or Griffin models (I wouldn't know for sure) and that it was the unit he used in his car. He showed me several different ways to hook it up - very versatile. You can also use the charger without the stand, if you like.
I have found that the sound quality will vary from song to song, but generally acceptable levels on most everything. The EQ settings on the iPod really help.
Here are a couple of quick pictures I took (a little blurry...sorry) to give you an idea.
-KarenM-
http://members.cox.net/kamartin/2005outbackreviews.html
Take the Mazda 3 and Volvo S40 for example. Same platform, but Volvo put a lot of effort into the S40 with a goal to make it at least as safe as the S80. They totally re-engineered the structure, and used exotic materials and techniques in several places. The Volvo also weights about 400 lbs more than the supposedly "equivalent" Mazda 3. They tested a side-impact with a 4000 Lbs XC90 and the S40 fared very well.
Does that mean it would do well in the IIHS test? I don't know, but I'm sure it would do well in a real life situation. I know which of the two (Mazda/Volvo) I'd prefer to be in if I had a severe crash.
Craig--thanks for the picture link--lookin'good. I also discovered a decent picture inside the Outback hard copy brochure.
Unfortunately, since I'm leaning to the 2.5i, it appears I would not have the choice of champagne gold *and* dark interior (not available), so the choice becomes even more critical and would require a switch to a different exterior color if I decided to go dark.
The DLO stand is nice. If I knew I was going FM from the get-go, I probably would have purchased that setup.
How do you like the 4G? Which EQ settings do you use for FM? I find that "Flat" sounds a little thin, but some of the other EQs distort the sound too much.
Ken
Craig
Given the focus on crash-testing, is it time for someone to make a joke about Lance Armstrong's propensity to crash, and his endorsement of an Outback?!
- Aussie Outback
The Outback comes with crossbars, but again, Yakima offers a solution that is a lot better. I have a Yakima setup that I have used on my last two Outback wagons and some previous cars, and it fits the 05 too. I am thinking about ordering a new rack system, as the parts are starting to look old (some of my Yakima rack components date back to the 1980s!).
Craig
Craig
$1000 deposit, invoice pricing (under VIP through my employer), and the dealer agreed to pay the last month of the leased vehicle that the Legacy will be replacing- very nice, we didnt even ask for that! (We did ask, however, that a separate check be issued for that amount, instead of the amount being netted against the price of the vehicle, that way we can be sure that we are truly getting invoice (plus destination)). Subaru also offered to beat any loan financing amount offered to us, and right now, it looks like we'll be getting 5.09%, which is fairly decent w/o incentives, IMO.
Very excited.
FWIW, Its actually not going to be a true "order" unless it has to be- we told the dealer that if he can find, in the region, an identical Legacy (NO EXCEPTIONS) to the one described above, we'd take it when he could get it, which is why he offerd to pay the last month on the lease (to mitigate our overlap). If the vehicle must be ordered, and it comes in the 40-70 days that we were told Subaru specifies for an order, we agreed to forgo the dealer writing us a payment for the last month of the lease, since there wont be appreciable overlap.
~alpha
Craig
If the dealer needs to locate one, make sure it's not one that's been test driven extensively. With an "ordered" vehicle, you're assured you'll be the first customer to drive it.
Ken
I thought I'd add that the EZ Rider Towers for the new low-profile rails on the Legacy wagons DO NOT LOCK. Sure all the accessories will lock to the crossbars but unfortunately the towers will not lock to the crossbars.
I know this for a fact as I have a set I special ordered from REI sitting in my garage still waiting for me to wash, claybar and Klasse AIO my new wagon. Yes, Ken, you're way more OCD than I am. ;-)
Cheers!
-Ian
Mark
Does sound like the Yakima's might be the way to go for the wife's 03 OBW.
I know its early, but I'm really hoping they put a nav system in the 06's, or that someone comes up with a drop in solution for the 05's. That's the biggest missing link in the equation for me to purchase one. The other thing I don't like is the integrated center console - Ford/Mercury took a huge amount of heat for this when they did it in the Sable/Taurus line because if you don't like the factory sound system, you're going to lighten your wallet a lot getting a new system that fits.
The last concern I have is the ability of the dealers to support the car. On a previous rant/post I highlighted the amount of insult my vehicle's suffered at the dealer, and can see it being a problem with the OBW-XT as well. Mechanically I think I know more about a lot of our Forester's and OBW's systems than the dealer does. Bad enough on a 23k and 28k car, but really scary on an over 30k vehicle.
Another 0.02
Larry
Not unexpectedly, I did not find the base 2.5 to have -more- "oomph" than needed, particularly from a standing stop, but I was pleasantly surprised that the car is not obviously underpowered either, particularly on the highway. The Sportshift, which I initially dismissed as kind of a gimmick, is extremely helpful in ironing out any hesitation in the standard EAT if one needs to "punch it" at some point.
I intentionally drove on a few two lane blacktops in our area where passing can be occasionally hairy, and, while I'm sure the turbo would be preferable, I was able to execute fairly rapid passing using the Sportshift. I came away from the rental far less concerned with power/weight/acceleration issues than I anticipated.
Other quick impressions for fence sitters (YMMV):
1) Fit and finish--particularly for a first year model--was first rate. I passed on the '04 Forester because of some "squeek and rattle" issues, but could not detect any here on a rental with 2300 on the ODO.
2) Base stereo was also considerably better than I expected and I'm fussy. I thought it sounded best with a slight fade to the rear speakers, and a bit less bass.
3) Jury's still out on the seats. Although I found them improved over other Subies, I still thought the cloth was a bit hard. Maybe it's me.
3) Minor annoyances--seat belt chime and lack of access with key through rear gate, which I found pretty odd. Imagine having a dead battery and needing to get at the rear spare.
In any event, overall a very positive experience, and I'd recommended anyone who wants more than a test drive to try your Hertz outlet. If the transmission does "learn" from one's driving, the Hertz cars will be pretty confused though.
Hmmmm. I don't know if I would like to keep my bike on my rack if the towers aren't secure. I know for a fact that it saved my bike once. I had parked somewhere with my bike up top and when I got back, the thumb levers for the towers were up. Obviously someone tinkering with the rack while I was away!
Ken
My DoubleCross towers work on the new OB racks, which is good for me, and they lock!
Lumbar: there is an inside release for the liftgate which can be used in emergencies. I forgot where it's located, but it was mentioned in the owner's manual when I scanned through it briefly.
Craig
Lumbar- I agree, I think the non-turbo engine is quite adequate. It's just not as fun. Better gas mileage though (on regular too)
As for the Nav option, it wasn't a big deal for me. It would be nice to have, but I have a portable Garmin 2610, which does very well and has some key advantages:
1. It's half the price or less! (about $750 if you look hard)
2. It's got a remote (good for the passenger- I wouldn't recommend playing with it while driving!)
3. It's transportable from car to car. Very useful if you travel and rent cars and don't know how to get around.
4. You can program a route (for vacation) in your Mac at home (ok, PC too) and load it into the Nav.
I think one of the car mags this month has an article on portable Navs and found they work quite well. The only disadvantage is the lack of dead reckoning- if you go into a tunnel or lose a satellite your GPS will stop working, but built in systems use the odometer and compass to figure out (for a short while) where you are. Now, it doesn't matter if you are in a tunnel, but if you are in the city you can lose the sat from time to time.
tom
But thinking about 80% of my usage (commuting) I woudn't need NAV and as tom writes, it would be a better investment for me if I just bought a portable unit.
As for HIDs, my last drive at night completely erased any want of HIDs. The stock lights are excellent.
Ken
Reason, it can be battery operated outside the vehicle and I found that to be very convenient when venturing out on foot in a vactioning town/city not having to memorize the lefts or rights at which corner to get to where you last left the car.
-Dave
Quick note on fuel economy - last week, I gassed up right before getting on the highway for a 20 mile jaunt through moderate traffic at 70mph average and got 26.7 mpg ave before getting off! Not my usual driving style, true (23.7 mpg ave), but an indication of what's possible. I have a GT with 2500 miles and no oil change.
As for my current mpg...I'm over 2500 miles now and the computer shows 23.4 overall. I've left one of the trip computers to reflect the odometer. I've calculated 22.74 overall average of all the tanks I've gone through. My best tank has been 24.18 and that had quite a bit of highway miles.
I'm continually impressed with how quiet the ride is. My wife was driving one day and we're making our way onto the freeway and she says, "Oooops!". I ask what happened and she says "Well I was just going 70 in 3rd!" I didn't notice either. ;-)
I'm also quite impressed with how quickly the AC gets the interior cooled down. Very nice considering how warm it's been here in the PNW this summer. I agree with Ken on the lights. I thought the lack of HID's would be a problem, but so far I'm very impressed with the lights.
I'm also quite impressed with the stereo. It sounds great to me. And I don't know what everyone is so worried about as there is a replacement face plate that will allow you to change it out. I don't know if it's available here yet but I'm sure it will be. For now I've only seen it on the JDM Subaru accessories site.
I do have a couple (very minor) nit picks. One is that blue cord from the subwoofer. Every time I look down and see it I wonder if maybe I could just take a razor blade and cut the carpet underneath it and tuck it through. I'll likely ask the dealership if they can get that under the carpet for me. The other is a very small rattle that comes out of hiding on only the roughest of freeway stretches here in the Seattle area. I'm not to concerned about this though as these stretches are VERY rough. Tom will know what I'm talking about (I-5 through North Seattle into Lynnwood both ways).
Other thoughts:
I will be interested in what can be done to hardwire an iPod into the system though. I'll keep tabs on how Ken, Karen and Craig do with their FM modulators, but I'd rather not go that route. I'm fortunate I guess in that I'm not totally addicted to my iPod yet. ;-)
The manual tranny isn't the smoothest. I'm hoping it gets easier as it gets worn in, but I've ground 2nd (and maybe 3rd) a couple times when trying to get on it. I hate that sound! It's worse than fingernails on a chalkboard! It's likely my poor skills. I've always driven manual tranny cars but I don't profess to be an expert by any means.
I too am a bit disappointed in Yakima not integrated the SKS lockable cores into these towers. That's part of the reason I haven't put them on yet. I'm hoping they'll maybe come up with a lockable alternative.
Cheers!
-Ian
Ian, I did the same thing on the freeway, except 2nd gear. I looked down at my tach and noticed I was up at 5000 (oops!). Sometimes I think this car is too quiet. I haven't had problems with my shifter- as long as I'm not forcing it through the gates. I'll tell you more after I break 1000. Still considering the short shifter (but the techs at my Subaru dealership don't like it- difficult to shift)
Ken- once again, I agree about the headlights. They are plenty bright for spirited driving at night. One of my favorite things about this car is being subtle. If I wanted to stand out I would have bought an M5. HIDs make you stand out and are just plain annoying to other drivers (ever get Hi beamed? You can't see a thing!)
How much weight can you put on these racks? I would like to put my bikes and maybe a rooftop box from time to time.
tom
i am not past the angst. the test results speak for themselves. subaru even had a second chance.
i dont know what to add to the discussion so my posts on this have stopped but my angst lives on.
If you can identify the panel, try putting a tiny amount of lithium grease on the fasteners to see if that reduces any friction related noise.
Ken
Hope this helps,
Avi
happy motoring,
~alpha
The OB's have many well known qualities and so I'm considering getting one soon. I need a car that can go off road occasionally, deal with snow and also carry two kayaks on it's roof. This seems a good fit. However, I wonder what you out there think of this car for carrying families in it? I need to carry a 7 and 4 years old kids in the back seat. We travel 2-3 hours several times a month. I know it's a very subjective question, but does your family feel cramped in there? Have you been able to fit a person in the middle between a car seat and a small booster seat? I know this car is for "5 passengers" but car seats limit the space for a 5th passenger - no? Any personal experience here would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Avi
I'll trade you some info back.
I have two boys- 8 and 10, and there's plenty of space for the four of us. But since both of my kids ride in booster seats- it is unpleasant for an adult to be between them for very long, although certainly doable if that adult is thin (and really likes your kids! ;-)! )
The OB will definitely handle everything else you want out of the car. It all depends on what you want or need. To get significantly more space you'd need to get a minivan or a large SUV. I traded in a Sequoia for my legacy GT. I thought the SUV would be great for everything I did- camping, hiking, skiing- but in reality I was able to do the same things with my minivan- only more comfortably and economically (13mpg is no fun). It also meant living with a large car 100% of the time, to use it's capability 5% of the time. And parking a full sized SUV in my underground parking lot at work was a major pain! So I downsized, have a lot more fun driving, still have plenty of room for my family, and all of my costs have gone down significantly (gas, insurance, car payments, and maintenance). And I still have a minivan for the times I need a lot of space.
By the way, I don't know how hard it is to load kayaks, but loading stuff on the roof of my SUV was a lot of work!
Hope this helps ;-)!
tom