Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

otis123 · January 2004

Yeah, 2 fellow employees had to get different rims and tires for their new wrx's a couple weeks ago when snow came... they had opted for the performance potenzas and found themselves slip sliding away (they had both been warned by their SOA salesmen)...

Ralph

goneskiian · January 2004

SubaH6 - Thanks for the review. I recall reading another you've done and that is what I was basing my description off of. Obviously my memory isn't as good as your experience. Also, thanks for clarifying the price diferences.

Juice - I'm going with Nostradamus on this one (as much as I respect your Suby knowledge). I'll wager there will NOT be a turbo in the Outback line up. SoA put the turbo in the Baja because it's supposed to be targeted at a younger demographic than the Outback. That and it doesn't get the H6 which we're sure the Outback will get. ;-)

-Ian

yugoboy · January 2004

i am very encouraged that everyone seem's to believe that the current prices will hold true even for the new 2005 gt, time will tell, but i still worry that it might be quite expensive, however, if i can get into this car for 40k(canadian funds) it will be a steal of a deal. Thanx for all the posts guys....!!!!!

subah6 · January 2004

Ian,

I may have made the same mistake myself when I was first looking at updating my previous Outback. When the new Outback became available here in Oz, I went to my local dealer and they didn't have one for at least a week, so he suggested I test drive the Liberty (Legacy) GT (this is an impressive piece of car let me tell you). This has the steering mounted auto controls which I thought was to be found on the new Outback H6, but alas, no. Maybe I had posted something after that first test drive of the GT regarding that but I don't remember.

Anyway sorry if I did cause confusion.

sebberry · January 2004

What will become of it when the '05 are here?

Will they continue it with the new body or the existing one?

Subah6: Did the Outback down under get a lift? If so, how does the cornering compare?

If I do decide to upgrade it will be really hard to choose between the Outback 3.0 and the Legacy GT... The offering of the NAV system and McIntosh sound system will definately help me decide tho... oh well.. we shall see

ateixeira · January 2004

I think the US model will be higher up, 8.7" of clearance plus a unique bumper. And factory tint.

We'll know Feb. 6, from Chicago.

-juice

otis123 · January 2004

subah6 · January 2004

Sebberry,

The ride height of the new spec Outback is the same as the old for us here in Oz. This is 8" ride height.

merrycynic · January 2004

There was a rumor that Subaru was going to offer the new Legacy with STi tuning. Does any one know if this is true? If so, will it be available as a wagon? If so, how much? If so, when? If so, what can we expect?

ateixeira · January 2004

Just rumors for now, but some say we may a special Legacy in the fall with 280hp.

-juice

snowbird · January 2004

According to Mr. Healey, " the turbo four vibrates remarkably at idle, cackles and grumbles at low speed ... and stutters and jerks during moderate acceleration." Also, "The ride is bouncy..." Does this sound like a good review to you?! BTW, I said I was "a little spooked" by his review, but I am not deterred. I am going ahead with my purchase anyway.

nowakj66 · January 2004

Is the 2005 Legacy GT motor essentially the one that appears in the 2004 Forester XT or are there differences?

rsholland · January 2004

GT is rated at 250 HP.

Bob

trueawd · January 2004

Here's what the line-up will be in the Outbacks. And yes again I got this info from a reliable dealer who has been right with me on new product 95% of the time. If you look back at my postings from the Legacy launch, they were correct.

Base Outback - 4 Cyl, 4sp AT or 5sp man, cold weather package, etc... (similar to now except for the new and improved features in 05' model)
Outback Limited - 4 Cyl, 4sp AT or 5sp man, added Sunroof and leather etc...also like now except new stuff in 05..like dual climate control etc..just like all the new 05 Legacy stuff.
Outback LL bean - 6cyl 250hp/219lbs tqe, new 5sp AT, audio controls on steering wheel, leather, roof, electro lum dash, power pass seat, etc...again all the things like in 05 Leg top of the line models.
OUTBACK XT (YES I SAID XT TURBO - juice is right) - 250/250 (like Leg GT) Loaded like Bean or Legacy GT Lim models. Will be avail in 5sp AT or Manual.
Ouback Sedan 6 cyl - NON VDC but loaded vehicle.
Outback VDC wagon - Loaded, add VDC and this year and sweet stereo and I think instead of Mcintosh there is suppoed to be an MP3 player.
* The only thing they were not sure of is if there will be a 4cyl Outback sedan or a base 6 Cyl wagon (cloth) like there is now). They said they would call me as soon as they knew.

I guess we'll all see in Chi-Town on the 5th of Feb..pretty soon!!

zman · January 2004

"OUTBACK XT (YES I SAID XT TURBO - juice is right) - 250/250 (like Leg GT) Loaded like Bean or Legacy GT Lim models. Will be avail in 5sp AT or Manual"

Yeah baby!

Sign me up.

Zman

nowakj66 · January 2004

So what are the arguments for and against these 4 verhicles? All would be similar in capability and potentially appeal to the same buyer (they all appeal to me! :-) )

I know the WRX has the 2 liter while the others would be 2.5. Other than that, is there enough to differentiate them?

rsholland · January 2004

Some guy from nabisco last summer went to a Subie focus group in which there were pics and brief specs of a turbo Outback GT (I have them on my computer someplace, as I downloaded that info). However, it was called a GT, not XT. Maybe the name has changed in the elapsed time?

Bob

trueawd · January 2004

I say yes because all 4 have different attributes:

WRX Wagon - smaller and your right a 2.0. Less tourqe and less space. Not as many lux items.

Legacy GT - a sports wagon with luxury (all about performance)

Forester XT - small SUV with utility (ground clearance, etc..)and performance

Outback XT - bigger then Forester and more lux items. Power seats, dual climate control, side curtain airbags (in addition to side), etc.. Alternative to SUV but still with ground clearnce 8.5 inches or so and all the features. Also reason for turbo over 6 or at least the consumer haveing a choice is have a chance to have a model to go up against Audi All Road, Volvo wagons, BMW, etc...
* The name must have changed since the focus groups. Probably to diff the 2 more (Leg and OB)??

rsholland · January 2004

If your figures are correct, the 2.5 turbo will have a huge edge in torque, and may well be the better tow vehicle because of that. That's assuming the turbo will have a good flat powerband, and excellent low-rpm torque, with little or no turbo lag.

Bob

rsholland · January 2004

that they're not offering the VDC on more models. According to your report, it's still being limited to just one trim level.

Bob

nowakj66 · January 2004

Thanks. All sound nice. A good way to leveage off sucess of WRX with body styles and equipment levels that appeal to all.

Monotone helps the Outback a lot. I have a wintergreen Bean H6 and it has been great. But cladding is sort of silly looking for my tastes, if functional. I much prefer new 1 color scheme on OB and of course 1 color legacy.

OB LL Bean is a little cramped on the front passenger side for taller passengers too. Other than that, great car that will last many years.

trueawd · January 2004

The turbo will have the same specs as the Legacy so 250hp at 6000rpm and 250tqe at 3600rpm, which should be awesome.. can't wait!! I think there will be very little lag, based on driving the Forester XT auto and 5 speed, there was very little, obviously more on the auto, but still not much.

As far as the 6, your right...turbo will def have a tqe advantage being faster..not really sure about the towing, you would think it should be.

The reason for both is you know there's still tons of people out there who want a 6 in that level of car regardless. Many just think 4 vs 6 and maybe the turbo will have more problems. They don't get that the 4turbo will be way more powerful and that turbos have come a long way (especially for Subie). The 6 will probably be a little smoother and quieter, and only auto.

As far as the VDC thing. I'm pretty sure, again the dealership sales manager I talk to has always been right on. They talk to Subaru all the time. I think maybe the owner is on the Subaru dealer council or some type of board. As of now they say that's the only model, and I agree it should be at least available on more. Who knows maybe later on??

zman · January 2004

Update on prognostications for '05 Outback Turbo.

Yes-2 (juice, aaron)
No-2 (mark, ian)

Anyone else want to weigh in?

10 days and counting to Media Preview in Chicago. Feb 4th is my anniversary. Hmmm....

Zman

cusafr · January 2004

If this is true, what difference is there between the Legacy turbo and the Outback turbo wagons? I'm sure there will be a price difference? Will the Outback have more features?

If so, than what is the difference between the Outback turbo and the Outback 6-cyl? Other than some low end torque...

You see where I'm going with this. I intend to buy a 2005 Subaru Wagon. Legacy or Outback name means nothing to me. Price vs features is what I am looking for. I am 50+ and actually prefer the 6-cyl for some of the reasons stated above. Probably close to your "average" buyer. However, being an open minded, logical person, I would consider the turbo, if there was enough justification.

Any comments welcome.

Thanks,

CUSAFR

rsholland · January 2004

the Outback turbo is the 210 HP unit found in the Forester and Baja? That then would still give the Legacy the edge in terms of power.

Bob

cusafr · January 2004

Shouldn't the Outback be the "superior" vehicle? Actually, that's my thoughts. If the Outback is not the top of the line in features, then why buy it over the Legacy? Surely the Outback will cost more, right?

CUSAFR

chelseac · January 2004

I have been looking at the outback sedan, thinking it would be a really nice vehicle if it had a) a stick shift b) turbo. Voiced these thoughts to 2 Subaru dealers who did not mention anything about 05 model offering these features. What's the story? Are they coming out with an outback sedan with stick and turbo, if so, when? Any idea on pricing?

subewannabe · January 2004

The simulataneous notions of increasing ground clearance to 8.5 inches and putting a 2.5 turbo 250 ft/lb torque monster in an Outback makes me think of a whole new suburban adventure: World Grocery Store Rally series! Make mine WR Blue, please!

Chicago should be full of surprises!

Mark

zman · January 2004

Make mine some kind of deep red. Thanks.

Zman

trueawd · January 2004

The Outback turbo will be the same as the Legacy Turbo 250/250. I'm 100% positive. Again the dealership sales manager I know let me look at a new model listing from Subaru, but would not let me copy it off course. It was from their SoA rep who was asking them to help with ordering colors for their Region. That's why I can't remember it exactly. The thing that stuck in my mind was the OB XT 250/250...couldn't forget that for anyting. I also remember that there was only one sedan 6cyl auto.

As for difference, again the Legacy will handle better with being close to the groud. The Outback will have much higher clearance. I know not many people actually go off roading and the OB isn't even really meant for the serious off roader, but if you go skiing or have a cabin or do minor off road stuff the OB would probably be better. The will also look slightly different as we've all see the pictures all over the web. I guess the look will be a matter of taste. Plus they will have monotone and non monotone versions. As far as 6 vs 4turbo again. You should (CUSAFR) go test drive them when they come out. I think you'll see that 31 more ft lbs of tqe at those RPMs is a huge difference at least 2plus seconds diff 0-60. Even if that's not what it's about for you, it's still nice to have that power on tap. The other reason is if you want a manual or not, 6 will be Auto only.

Good luck...all the 05 Leg/OB will be awesome!!

cusafr · January 2004

Sounds great. I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to see the difference. I agree the turbo will have the grunt, but at my age I'm now looking more for comfort first, grunt second. I'm guessing the Outback must have some kind of interior upgrades?

Your right, I will drive both, to be sure. Looking forward to having a tough decision between two cars. Wonderful...

CUSAFR

zman · January 2004

Speaking of clearance, the current OB has 7.3", but I can't find out online what the clearance is for the current Legacy. Anyone know?

I take it that the '05 OB goes up about an inch and a half, but I assume the Legacy will not. More or less accurate?

-Zman

ncvol · January 2004

Outback VDC wagon - Loaded, add VDC and this year and sweet stereo and I think instead of Mcintosh there is suppoed to be an MP3 player

What did you mean by this? No McIntosh in the VDC? Surely if there is an MP3 player, there will also be a CD changer as well?

chelseac · January 2004

OK TRUEAWD, so when will we be seeing this outback turbo in the dealers showrooms?

zman · January 2004

After all the negative PR, I thought this was a nice piece, found on a subaru outback site.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------
Subaru Recognized for Cleaner Vehicles at EPA Tier 2 Event

What:
Subaru will be recognized among other automakers by the Environmental Protection Agency for producing cleaner vehicles in 2004. The cleaner vehicles meet the new EPA Tier 2 standard.

The Tier 2 emissions standards are the first EPA standards to apply equally to both cars and light trucks. The federal Tier 2 standards are also equivalent to the more stringent California LEV II emissions standards which are also being phased in starting with the 2004 models. Additionally, the Tier 2 vehicle emissions standards are the first EPA vehicle standards that include parallel standards for cleaner, low-sulfur gasoline.

All Subaru 2.5-liter naturally aspirated products manufactured at Subaru Indiana Automotive (Subaru Baja, Legacy, and Outback) are Tier 2, Bin 5.

Subaru Legacy and Outback models with 2.5-liter engines distributed for sale in California (and in Northeast states which have adopted California Specification Emission Control Systems and are registered for use in those states) are specially equipped to meet the California Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV credited SULEV2) requirements.

Subaru executives will be available for interviews.

Who:
Don Bearden, Director, Government Relations, Subaru of America, Inc.
Jim Murphy, Manager Government Affairs, Subaru Research & Development, Inc.

When:
Monday, January 26, 2004 - 10:00 AM ET

Where:
Ronald Reagan building, Atrium Hall, 1300 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Washington, DC

About Subaru of America, Inc.

PRNewswire -- Jan. 23

trueawd · January 2004

First of all...the 2005 Legacy and Outback will hit dealer showrooms last week of May, 1st week of June, most likely 1st week in June. The Subaru National Dealer Meeting is the 3rd week in May. Usually they (SoA) try and release the cars right after the meeting.

As far as ground clearance the present 4cyl OB do have 7.3 inches and the present 6cyl Bean & VDC have 7.9inches (muffler a little higher). I can't find out the 05 Legacy height, I have too been looking. The new OB will be somewhere 8.4-8.7, so about a 1/2 inch higher then the highest one now.

As far as the VDC Stereo of course it will also have a 6 disc changer, and I said I wasn't sure about the Mcintosh, but either way it's supposed to have an MP3 player in addition. I hope this helps.

sebberry · January 2004

the new Legacy, is the 4 cyl any smoother than the current one?

Even if it is the only one with the turbo, I still think I would rather have the 6 if the difference is anything like it is now.

Also, a side thought:
Being a vehicle designed for snow and ice driving, I think it would be a great time for Subaru to start working on a turbo that can be disabled when traction is really low. That is another reason why I am slightly reluctant to go for the turbo.

Ciao

blane · January 2004

sebberry:

Nobody in North America (other than top corporate brass, overseas) has driven the new production Legacy. The first one to be sold here hasn't been built yet.

jguay2 · January 2004

Does anyone know if Subaru will be offering this model for the 2005 year?

Thanks.

Jeff

rsholland · January 2004

Why wouldn't they? It's a good seller for Subaru.

Bob

pnassmac · January 2004

I must admit, Subaru's offering for 2005 will be a tempting purchase in 2006 (and by that time I'm hopeful they'll have worked out most of the product bugs).

But what holds me back is this...if Subaru is truly intent on strongly marketing it's AWD drive system because of the level of safety it affords it's occupants, then why not up the ante and offer traction control (rhetorical)? This would also fall into the supporting Subaru's focus on becoming an upscale product in light of all other AWD systems on higher-priced vehicles that have traction control avaiable (standard or optional).

Isn't traction control just a reversal of ABS with a connection to the engine (rhetorical)? How hard could it be (rhetorical)? So many other manufacturers have mastered it, so why re-invent it and instead modify then incorporate it into Subaru's cars/light trucks (rhetorical)?

And more importantly is that Subaru receives this message that I WANT MORE and am WILLING to pay a competitive price for it.

I think Subaru is dropping the ball on this one. Subaru, you've delivered the power, but the offset needs to be that this consumer demands more control.

So, my demand as a consumer is this... Subaru, add traction control (at least as an option) to your 5MT 4H or 6H engines. If Volkswagen, Jaguar and Audi can do it, then why can't you?

This segment of Subaru's potential customer base has spoken. No response is required.

pnassmac

dcm61 · January 2004

is an option. You just buy the Outback VDC.

DaveM

zman3 · January 2004

Was that a rhetorical answer?

self_mechanic · January 2004

from my point of views equals Subaru AWD system. Besides why would you want a traction control based on ABS in Subaru. It will wear out your brake pads a lot faster and put no value on AWD system. Unless you want a stability control, than you go with VDC as dcm61 suggested.

Alland

hondafriek · January 2004

Missing something, Subaru has AWD with an LSD on the rear wheels why would a traction control be even necessary.

Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · January 2004

Look at it this way - cars with 2WD and an open differential could be sending power to just one wheel.

AWD/4WD with 2 open differentials, make it 2 wheels, one from each axle.

AWD/4WD with one LSD and one open diffy, make it 3 wheels.

VDC makes it all 4. But yeah, by then you get diminishing returns. In fact the VDC deletes the rear LSD and lets the traction control manage both axles.

-juice

pnassmac · January 2004

Don't care what it's called. If VDC is it and it is just as or more functional than traction control, so bit it.

I know what I like and am confident this is what it would take for me to continue buying Subaru products in the future. Since this is a forum that is actually monitored by Subaru employees, I've decided to use this location to voice my requirements. I am a one-man focus group for my and my family's needs, not anyone elses in regard to purchasing decisions.

I realize Subaru has other points-of-contact to get my view across, but since I'm here anyway...

So be it Subaru, I've read the articles and you admit you've made mistakes regarding the finicky needs of US buyers, well I'm one of them and you now have the opportunity to improve yourself. How about building upon what you have for the 2005 Legacy by adding VDC (traction control) to your 5MT 4H engines? 4H won't work? Then let's move on to a 5MT 6H.

I know you can do it. You've taken risks before and won more than you've lost. I promise you, this is a winner with minimum investment because the work's already been done somewhere else. Learn, tweak, and incorporate it into more of your models. Your future is wholly your own and it's up to you to decide how bright your future will be...

pnassmac

sebberry · January 2004

Sorry, my question was more directed to any of our "privilaged" contributors from Europe, Austrailia or Japan.

ppek · January 2004

pnassmac, do you mean traction control, or stability control? (not rhetorical) There is a difference. Traction control is primarily to prevent slipping while accelerating from a stop, while stability control is to prevent side-skidding. Below is a link to an Edmunds article that does a good job at explaining each.

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/safety/articles/45992/article.ht- - ml

IMO Subarus do a good job in the traction control area via their AWD and limited slip diff. Stability control I could see as something that could be desired across more models and trim levels.

If you want the best traction control for your Subaru, buy a set of snow tires, that is what I did.

Take care, Paul

ateixeira · January 2004

You can get Outback VDCs for about $29k nowadays.

I'm sure this technology will cascade down the product line, Toyota made VSC standard on every SUV it sells already. Honda will by 2006. So the pressure is on and I bet Subaru will start soon.

-juice

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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