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I actually like your points. I think we ought to test all drivers periodically, at least written tests and preferably behind the wheel tests. All the tests you list should apply to everyone and not only SUV drivers. It probably is not realistic in todays society but it doesn't hurt to dream. I would even support reduced insurance rates for individuals who volunteer for refresher training, like they do for some seniors.
Karl
Options? I have yet to see a list of options. I know Subaru has given us some teaser information about the different trim packages but I wouldn't call that a list of the options.
Also, a few posts back someone mentioned how excited they were about the Legacy GT getting the Macintosh audio system. I know Subaru has included it in other countries but so far there's no word on whether we'll get it in North America. I sure hope so though as that's the car I want as well (Wagon please in Silver or blue).
Official pricing would be nice too. ;-)
-Ian
With the "premium" sound system going downscale (losing 2 speakers and by the looks of it, the subwoofer), a Delco unit in a Sierra work truck is likely to sound better.
One thing that makes a long trip over the mountains even better is a good sound system. (No, the turbo alone doesn't cut it..)
It appears that it will be difficult to upgrade the stock system with the new integrated look. this fact alone emphasizes the need for the McIntosh.
As I mentioned in a post a long time ago, the McIntosh and the NAV are the dealbreakers. No Mac, I keep my current Beaner.
And as for the old lady post, I'm 20. I'm male. And I bought an Outback. Nope, no lowered Civic for me *as I see it getting smaller and smaller in the rearview on a slippery hill *
Oh, and did I say include the McIntosh? Just wanted to be sure. A Kenwood upgrade just won't cut it for me.
I felt like I walked onstage to a Monty Python skit. Is this 2005 Legacy and Outback? No this is SUV argument, Legacy is down the hall.
Anyways .... my requirements
GT LTD
Silver
Upgraded Stereo with subwoofer and XM ready
Security System
Rear Spoiler
Basically my 99 GT LTD 30th, which I am very happy with, but newer, faster and better handling.
Of course, price will be key. Anything more than $2k increase over current model will have me looking at comparable models - Acura TL, Volvo or Saab.
BTW, I am on Subaru #3 and #4, and look forward to #5.
(and yeah, let's stay away from the SUV/anti-SUV argument, or I'll banish you to "I don't like SUVs... why do you?" )
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Popularity of the car will come into play. I hope that this cars' performance remains understated. If everyone wants one, and I have to pay a premium price, I might not go for it.
As far as pricing on the new Legacy, consider that the Forester XT w/ leather has an MSRP around $27,700 - so I would imagine the new Legacy w/ turbo and leather will be a bit more than that.
Patiently waiting.
Thanks all.
Now we have the new upgraded Turbo Legacy and many think it should come in below 30K. This car is gonna go straight up against the Audi A4/S4/A6, BMW 330, Infinit G35, Jag X-Type, Volvo whatever, and Saab. Show it some respect price wise. 30-33K+ is very resonable for a fully optioned Subaru Legacy GT
Look at wheelbases, even the new Legacy has about a 105" wheelbase. It's definitely among the smallest in the mid-size class, boderline "big compact".
So that means it has to compete with the TSX, not the TL. The A4, not the A6.
So even if Subaru moves upscale, there is a limit as to what people will pay for a smallish mid-size sedan/wagon from a non-luxury brand. Top that off with some premium features not being availble (no Navi, no HIDs), and $30k+ is a tough sell.
Price it like the TSX, not the TL.
-juice
ateixeira - You're right size matters. The Legacy is smallish, but I think even the 2004 Legacy compares even up to the current A6 on interior volume. It is a narrow car, yet in terms of legroom & headroom somewhat, it matches up pretty well. It is surely smaller than a Maxima a bit smaller than the A6; same as the A4, TSX, TL, X-Type; surprisingly larger than the G35? and S60. Keep in mind that is the 2004 version, the 2005 is supposedly larger inside. Lack of Nav and Xenon is a loss, but I think the Legacy gets ONSTAR which is a nice bonus. If the interior is nicer on this model I feel the prestige will come, cause the performance is gonna be there. The price should reflect this.
"It is surely smaller than a Maxima a bit smaller than the A6; same as the A4, TSX, TL, X-Type; surprisingly larger than the G35? and S60."
I haven't looked at any specs but I would be surprised if it was smaller than a Maxima and surprisingly larger than a G35 since they are the same platform. Is there really a difference is size?
Karl
If the Legacy GT, fully optioned is about the same price as a TL, it is going to be a hard sell. The Legacy may have better driving dynamics, but the TL will kill it in luxury, amenities, size, components, and prestige.
Agree with Juice on this one.
Here is the link for some info:
http://www.tuningnews.net/news/040212/subaru-legacy.php
Here is the link for some photos:
http://autoweek.com/specials/2004_geneva/
The Spec B photo is down the page. Autoweek has several good pics. Nice wheels.
The G35 is built on Nissan's FM(front mid-ship) platform, along with the 350Z and the FX35/45. The Maxima shares the FF-L platform with the Altima and the Murano. The Maxima is indeed larger than the G35, as the G35 is slightly smaller overall than the Altima.
I will actually cross shop the G35x with the 2005 H6 Outback. I am most concerned about having AWD and a 6 cylinder engine. Size, sedan, wagon, etc are less important to me as long as it is bigger than an Impreza and smaller than a SUV/crossover.
Karl
Even the Passat is priced too high, sales are down, waaaaay down this year. VW moved upscale, does Subaru want to do the same?
-juice
redkey1 - A friend has the TSX and I like it alot it's sporty for sure, but it won't have the sporting capability of a turbo GT Legacy.
kevin111 - The TL is a awesome car with great features. This will be a tough cross shop for the Legacy.
Zoomer - 30-35K for a Subaru top of the line and 22-25K for a midlevel Toyota, Honda, Mazda, etc. It depends on what you want. Those base level cars will always outsell the niche Subaru. 30-35K is also guessed at MSRP for a top of the line model.
ateixeria - A fully loaded Passat is still priced higher than a comparable Subaru. Knock on wood, but I don't think the Legacy will suffer the Passats reliability woes.
Although Subaru is not quite a "Premium" or "Prestige" brand, most people that shop Subaru are cross shopping with the premium Euro/Japanese brands, not Kia's or Hyundais or Chevy's or Ford cars. Subaru realized this and thus the push for the upgraded interior and features. Im not saying the new Legacy won't be a tough sell at the higher price, but the upgrades might be worth the premium.
Cheers Pat.
-juice
Very good point since the Passat offers AWD. Not only that it has the auto/stick trans...and vehicle stability control...they added 4 yrs B-T-B warranty. The 2004 Passat's external and internal size will be bigger than the 2005 Legacy. Can you imagine what the 2006 Passat would do to a 2004 Subaru IF VW holds the price line. Yikes. I would suggest that you let SOA know that we the consumers are Subaru fans but not at any cost.
hondafriek "Subaru Crew - Future Models II" Mar 4, 2004 12:59pm!keywords=
Length 187.4 in. 184.3 in. 184.3 in.
Width 68.7 in. 68.7 in. 68.7 in.
Height 63.3 in. 58.9 in. 58.6 in.
Weight 3715 lbs. 4067 lbs. 3840 lbs.
Whl Base 104.3 in. 106.4 in. 106.4 in.
Clearance 7.9 in. 5.8 in. 5.8 in.
Interior H6 Outback W8 Passat V6 Passat
Frt Hdrm 38.5 in. 37.8 in. 37.8 in.
Rrr Hdrm 37.2 in. 37.9 in. 37.9 in.
Frt Shlder 53.9 in. 55.8 in. 55.8 in.
Rr Shlder 53.6 in. 54.6 in. 54.6 in.
Frt Hip 51.3 in. Not Published Not Published
Rr Hip 51.9 in. Not Published Not Published
Frt Leg 43.3 in. 41.5 in. 41.5 in.
Rear Leg 34.3 in. 35.3 in. 35.3 in.
Max Lug 34.3 cu.ft. 36 cu.ft. 36 cu.ft.
Max Seat 5 5 5
Pretty close for the current models and the new Legacy is spoosed to be bigger on the inside.
I wonder if people are sniffing something if they think they are getting prestige when buying a VW. Subaru and VW are in same league. Unfortunately VW needs the 4 years B To B warranty. Passats are nice but in no way do they match the value of a Legacy.
2004 Pricing
Pricing H6 Outback W8 Passat V6 Passat
MSRP $32,620 $39,660 $33,605
Invoice $29,510 $36,381 $30,911
TMV®) $29,786 $36,310 $30,744
A couple of guys in Australia who post from time to time reported paying a minimal increase when they bought the new model over what they had paid for the previous model.
Like he said Subaru is really aware that if they price too high they will be in trouble, I cannot see them doing things differently here than they have done in the other markets.
Cheers Pat.
-Andrew L
Rumor has it Subaru's warranty will improve, we'll see about that.
Ragtop: did you like the B9SC? Well, too bad, it's doubtful they'll produce it.
I'd love to see that roadster, but a coupe is more likely, a 7 seater is much more likely, a big sedan is more likely. Hen's teeth are more likely.
-juice
Subaru still has some value packed cars that don't abandon the 'inexpensive and built to stay that way" theme. The base Imprezas are still relatively low cost sub 20K. Subaru has incentives now, but can probably do a price adjust and value pack these if they need to move more of them.
Ralph
They tried 2 years' free maintenance with the LL Bean, so they may bring that back. I don't see it happening on all models, though.
My dealer virtually loses money on new car sales, but them recovers it on service ($90 per hour labor charge). Dealers won't want to give that up too soon.
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And since I have no idea what the current model sports for ground clearance to begin with, can anyone tell me what the '05 will have? It's does not appear to be in the specs that I have found online.
From what I can gather, the Legacy GT (MT), will have a final gear ratio is 4.11 (vs. the Outback's 4.44). Is this accurate?
Zman
Cheers Pat.
It is beyond the 50K mark, and specifically beyond the 80-100K mark where maintenance really starts to add up. (60K spark plugs, 100K timing chain, 10 year air bag maintenance, etc.)
The advertised USDM release final reduction ratio is 4.11 on the Legacy GT MT, same as the current Forester XT MT.
My wife and I are currently considering buying one of three cars, with the 05 Legacy GT being one of them (Mazda RX-8 and Mazda 6 the other two). I'm interested in hearing more about the manual transmission and its relative smoothness, especially when compared to the WRX's manual. I've driven an 02 WRX with a manual and it was nowhere near as smooth as the RX-8's, and I've also read plenty of forums with posts about the relative difficulty of the WRX's shifter and clutch (even STi reviews compare its shifter unfavorably to the Evo's).
So far I've read a few brief positive comments about the shifter in Australian reviews, but I'm looking for any other foreign reviews or other insight into the 05 Legacy's manual transmission.
Thanks in advance,
Luke
- Think the '05 Legacy will have the advantage over the RX8 in performance (0-60, 1/4 mile), gas mileage (RX8 is <20 mpg), range, and interior.
- RX8 will probably be the better handler and look more flashy.
Price should be close.
So the new Legacy supposedly has the new more efficient 2.5L (does the turbo version apply as well?), AVCS, lower drag, and lighter weight (than the previous versions). Hopefully this will all translate into numbers more in the 20 city/26 hwy range or even higher. Otherwise I don't see how it has any real advantage in MPG.
I know these cars are very different drive-train wise, but we already have a functional car (00 AT Legacy wagon) and this one is for coolness/fun.
Can't wait to hear more specs from Subaru. Hopefully someone was right about them being released before the end of March.
My guess is that the Outback XT will be somewhere about $1.5k - $2K over the Forester. If they keep that kind of gap, I guess it will make sense. More and the Outback will be a tougher sell. Less and they may hurt the Forester.
Because I actually occasionally go off road, the Outback is the only "crossover" I am considering to replace my truck. With 8.7" of ground clearance, the Subaru AWD and toughness, and the lsd I am guessing it would be enough. Plus with 2,700 pounds of towing, I could give up the pick-up by getting a utility trailer.
The one thing I have not seen anywhere is any info on Cargo room. The Forester is 62 - 64 cubic feet depending upon sunroof. Current Outback I believe is in the high 60s. I am hoping for at least this much if not more (the car length and wheelbase are slightly extended after all). Has anyone seen any listed figures? I thought that was odd, considering so many other specs have been released, but I have not seen anything saying if interior room is up.
- Per the Consumer Reports comparison a few months back -
WRX STi - Gas Mileage - 20 mpg
RX8 - Gas Mileage - 18 mpg
Both have about the same size tank.
If you are going for "coolness/fun.", then maybe go with the RX8. While I can see the new Legacy performing better, and being a better option if you will only own one car, the RX8 flashiness, with its very neutral handling and tossability is a very fun drive, indeed.
If this is the case, you should also look at the STi, Evo, S2000, 350Z, G35 coupe, and Crossfire.......
Do not limit yourself to just 2 cars when shopping!!!
F-XT gets 17/23, so I'm hoping for 18/24 optimistically.
If you want 20/26 it'll have to be the H6, which gets much, much taller gearing. It might even do better than that.
-juice