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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Would you care to elaborate? That's the first I've heard of it. Does the ECU store the settings in some type of non-volatile memory? From what model year and how would one reset the ECU in this case?

    Ken
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    All I can say is WOW!!!

    I changed my oil for the first time since I added the Fumoto drain valve to my 06 3.0R wagon. I had complained previously about oil dripping on the underbody cladding before I added the valve. With the valve, not even a drop of oil spilled on the cladding. Additionally, the oil came out in a nice, even stream from the beginning. I did not even have any oil splash out of the catch basin onto the garage floor.

    I wish I had done it to my 98 OB when I owned it.

    Karl
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    HP was boosted to 175 from 165 (I believe). Did that extra 10 HP help? Many '05 Legacy Outback 2.5i owners have reported that acceleration is just acceptable with the AT. Since it is 5 mpg and around $4000 difference between a loaded 2.5i Ltd. and the XT, I was hoping that the extra HP helps.
    An Outback wagon with AT has 175 hp and weighs 3,364 lbs or so. A legacy sedan weighs 100lbs or so less. 0-60 isn't a real meaningful # for street performance, but you'll note they are in line with massive SUV's, pickup trucks and econoboxes. At the same time they are relatively smooth on the highway and will cruise 75-80 all day. You can live with it.

    With a passenger load, and possibly a roofbox, on highways and hills the engine works very hard and you have to plan ahead. There's also a pretty big gulf between the lower two gears and the top two - Subaru hasn't seen fit to offer the 5 speed with the H4, even while competitors are offering 6 speed automatics and CVT's. This is the price you pay to get reasonable mileage in an AWD vehicle around town and probably alone, which is the way most Americans drive.

    High highway mileage drivers (like me) seem to favor the H6 as it's smooth, quiet, and gets better mileage than the boy-racer XT.

    The XT is faster than many high-falutin' sports cars - a LOT faster. So it's more fun, but you pay at the pump.
  • aaykayaaykay Member Posts: 539
    High highway mileage drivers (like me) seem to favor the H6 as it's smooth, quiet, and gets better mileage than the boy-racer XT.

    I only wish the H6 was available in the Legacy GT wagon. All other hardware like larger brakes etc of the GT remaining intact and the Turbo 4 replaced with the H6. The H6 is available in several other markets in the Legacy wagon but wonder why Subaru decided to skip it from the US market. I believe the H6 engine weighs only around 35lbs or so more than the Turbo 4 engine with all its associated hardware.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    I only wish the H6 was available in the Legacy GT wagon.

    That would have been my choice also, but Subaru MPG is too close to limits set by CAFE. The answer was to raise the Outbacks high enough to classify them as trucks..with a resultant more lenient mpg figure.

    So the question is: Has anyone lowered an H6 Outback to the height of the Legacy? The handling improvement would be great. Even Consumer Reports noted that the H6 Outback they just reviewed was not as nimble as the 2004 Outback previously tested. Oddly they seemingly had not noticed the extra rise in the suspension!!!
  • kushana77kushana77 Member Posts: 2
    Hello all, I am a newbie here. Just wondering if Legacy GT wagon handles as good as the sedan. I have tried the sedan and was really impressed by the power and handling, but never got a chance to try the wagon, as none of the dealerships within 150 miles has one. Any LGT wagon owners can share the experience? Many thanks
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    My seniments exactly when I first installed it on my 05 LGT wagon. It makes oil changes so much cleaner and easier. I also wished I had done it on my 98 Forester.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    As a Legacy GT wagon owner, I would say yes. Unless you are going to autocross or track the two, you're not going to see a major difference in everyday driving. I drove both while shopping and it's easy to forget that you're driving a wagon with the LGT. The wagon is a little heavier (especially if you get the gigantic moonroof) than the sedan, but the weight distribution is a little more favorable.

    Some members here were lucky enough to be invited to Subaru's dealer training of the current generation Legacy and OB. I believe they were able to try some of these models out on a track and could give more back-to-back feedback.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Another reason why the H6 is not an option on the US Legacy GT is that the market is probably too small to justify another option code.

    I know over at some of the Legacy and Outback enthusiast forums, some OB owners have lowered their OBXT (not H6 OB). Not surprisingly, the handling improves greatly.

    Ken
  • kushana77kushana77 Member Posts: 2
    Thanks kens, that's very informative. I have also tried OB XT, but the handling is terrible compared with LGT sedan. I am thinking about buying a fun-to-drive wagon and cannot decide whether to go with WRX or LGT. Too bad there is no LGT wagon with manual transmission any more, otherwise it would be the perfect choice. WRX is a bit smaller than I want, the interior is not as nice as LGT, and insurance is much more than LGT. Is your LGT wagon a 5MT or 5AT? If it is 5AT, did you feel any turbo lag? Thanks.
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    Replace the stock Bridgestone Potenzas and the handling improves dramatically. I put Goodyear F1 GS D3's on my 3.0R - incredible difference. I was able to do about 15 laps on a short test course at Lime Rock and it handled very well, without any other changes. But going to larger swaybars is a possibility - cheap and easy.
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    Another reason why the H6 is not an option on the US Legacy GT is that the market is probably too small to justify another option code.
    Or that SOA does not have a handle on the American market? How does it make sense to offer a manual shift Outback XT wagon - but not a manual shift Legacy GT wagon? That choice was dropped after 2005.

    SOA could simply offer the Spec B Legacy wagon sold just about everywhere else - with the 3.0 and 6 speed manual. And those are vehicles exported from Japan, versus being assembled here.

    There are no Outback specific coilover units on the market to lower the Outback, to my knowledge. There are several swaybar kits and the JDM swaybars.

    Almost all my complaints about the Outback suspension went away after replacing the stock Potenza RE92A's with Goodyear F1 GS D3 tires. I didn't get a chance to autocross it but was able to do about 15 laps on a test track at Lime Rock, CT at a Skip barber school, which included letting an instructor (with a WRX sportwagon) drive it for a few laps. It handles very well and embarassed some other cars. I left the booster seat in the back to prove a point....
  • satire2satire2 Member Posts: 22
    We're trying to sell the stock Bridgestones on an online auction and, after several passes, there are NO bidders! And hardly anyone even looks at the listing!

    Egads! Subaru is using original equipment tires that are, at 1500 miles, literally WORTHLESS in the marketplace!!

    Those are from a GT sedan. We also have a 2.5i auto wagon. The wagon is perfectly average and perfectly acceptable, acceleration-wise. There has to be something terribly wrong with us that we crave more and more mostly-useless power!

    =gregg=
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    Usually folks sell them one at a time to other GT owners who trash one of the originals, since they sell for $175 or so.

    I tried to sell mine as new takeoffs for $50 per pair and got no takers. I bought some 17" Maxima rims and put them on our Quest minivan.
  • satire2satire2 Member Posts: 22
    Good advice - thanks!

    =gregg=
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    Would you care to elaborate? That's the first I've heard of it. Does the ECU store the settings in some type of non-volatile memory? From what model year and how would one reset the ECU in this case?

    I have twice posted responses and they were removed. I give up.
  • aaykayaaykay Member Posts: 539
    I was told that the Legacy wagon (including GT) and the Outback Sedan would be dropped completely from the 08 model year. The wagons would then be solely retained in the Outback line and the Sedans to be retained solely as a 'Legacy'.

    The good thing here is that the Impreza is being moved to a shortened version of the Legacy platform and hence a version of the 'Legacy' will still be available as a wagon.
  • aaykayaaykay Member Posts: 539
    We also have a 2.5i auto wagon. The wagon is perfectly average and perfectly acceptable, acceleration-wise. There has to be something terribly wrong with us that we crave more and more mostly-useless power!

    If the 2.5i wagon came with the quicker steering ratio of the WRX (or at least the Leg.GT) and its Front-wheel biased AWD were swapped with the rear-biased AWD of the EAT WRX/GT, and it came with a rear LSD and the better brakes of the LGT/WRX, I would unhesitatingly pick it over the more expensive Turbo variants. The engine power itself is more than sufficient for my needs.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I guess it all depends on what your definition for fun-to-drive is. The OBXT, when compared to SUVs is more fun to drive. Compared to a sports sedan or wagon, you simply can't defy the laws of physics.

    It is too bad Subaru dropped the 5MT LGT Wagon. While the WRX scores definetly high on the fun scale, it's targeted at a different market segment and hence the more spartan interior.

    I have the 5EAT transmission on my LGT wagon. In my case, I had the choice between the 5MT or 5EAT since I bought in MY2005. Of course, for any car, especially a turbo, a manual tranny will win hands-down on fun.

    However, in my case, I weighed in the factor of being a daily commuter and wife-friendly (won't drive stick). Also in favor of the 5EAT was a better AWD system, the fact that I would be hard pressed to snick off shifts any smoothly and quickly on my own and that I didn't have the best experience with Subaru manuals before. I would have gone MT if Subaru had offered the current Spec B 6MT in a wagon, however.

    The 5EAT does have more pronounced lag compared to the 5MT, however, I found it to be acceptable. Also, it makes itself noticeable to me really only when accelerating hard from a stop. On the highway, it's not noticeable.

    I've driven the older 2.0T WRX with 4EAT and the lag is far less pronounced on the Legacy GT wagon. The larger displacement engine and lower gearing from the 5-speed definetly helps.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    True, while SOA could simply import a model, that still adds costs to them. Subaru would still need to submit it to various tests, carry the burden of a unique inventory number as well as consider spare parts and aftermarket service as well. Adding a model or option isn't as easy as one thinks.

    But yes, I would love to see a 3.0 6MT model!

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    LOL. Oh well. Were you posting a link to a non-Edmund's forum? Unfortuantely, that's verboten around here...

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Gregg,

    I've had luck selling lightly used tires to a local tire shop before. Sometimes they will get a customer with AWD and one bad tire that is looking for an alternative to replacing all four.

    But, yeah, it's unfortunate the stock RE92As get such a bad rap. They're okay for OE freebies.

    Ken
  • aaykayaaykay Member Posts: 539
    True, while SOA could simply import a model, that still adds costs to them. Subaru would still need to submit it to various tests, carry the burden of a unique inventory number as well as consider spare parts and aftermarket service as well. Adding a model or option isn't as easy as one thinks.

    Isn't the model that we are talking about (3.0 H6 with 5EAT in the Legacy GT body) already available in near identical form in the Outback variant (Outback LL Bean/VDC etc) ? What additional spareparts and aftermarket service are we talking about, that cannot be managed with existing infrastructure ? :confuse:
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I think he was talking about a 3.0 mated to a 6-speed imported from Japan. But even in the case that the parts were all available here, there still are costs associated with carrying a distinct model/option combination -- administrative, advertising, etc. There's a reason why manufacturers of any type of product limit the number of possible combinations.

    Ken
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    If SOA was concerned with the costs of carrying different models why did they offer new colors this year? There are now seven Outback models and seven Legacy models. They include an XT wagon with manual shift and an LLBean sedan.

    The issue is does SOA marketing understand what customers want. Do you seriously believe SOA will sell more LLBean sedans than they would manual shift Legacy GT wagons?
  • satire2satire2 Member Posts: 22
    "The issue is does SOA marketing understand what customers want."

    Interesting question.

    Now take a good look at the styling of the Tribeca. Well?

    In addition, look at Legacy color choices the last few years. Color can and should be such an area of relatively inexpensive joy for both manufacturers and car buyers, and yet Subaru acts as if there were an international pigment shortage.

    =gregg=
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I think it's also a matter of what sells the best, and what they can get the most profit out of. Historically, the Outback models far, far outsell the Legacy models. So I am not surprised to see some cutbacks on the Legacy side to free up more production for Outbacks (and have no doubt whatsoever that LL Beans will outsell Legacy wagons). It makes sense from the business side.

    My gripes are lack of 5EAT and VDC in lesser models, and lack of exterior colors paired with the darker interiors. Subaru seems to have concluded that everybody wants a beige interior and doesn't mind the aging 4EAT and lack of stability control. You can buy entry level cars from other makes with 5-spd autos and stability control. To have these absent on the majority of the Legacy/Outback line is really pathetic.
  • aaykayaaykay Member Posts: 539
    So I am not surprised to see some cutbacks on the Legacy side to free up more production for Outbacks (and have no doubt whatsoever that LL Beans will outsell Legacy wagons).

    Sorry, I believe he mentioned Outback LL Bean Sedans. If there is something that sells worse than the Legacy wagons, those would be the Outback sedans. So the point was that they increased production of the wrong vehicle type.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I saw an Outback LLBean sedan last week.. Not a good look for a sedan..

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  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I guess the real comparison should be why they offer the 5-spd manual in the Outback XT wagon and not the LGT wagon. And that we don't know without some inside reasoning from SOA. But my guess would be that sales of the 5MT XT wagon versus the 5MT LGT wagon justified it.

    Of course, you can't get an Outback 2.5i Ltd or Legacy 2.5i Ltd with 5MT anymore either -- only the base models of each line are available with 5MT.

    Either the market has shifted even further from demanding 5MT, or their supply was constrained. Either way, Subaru is clearly picking and choosing where to offer that option compared to years past when only the H6 models were not offered with 5MT.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I've always felt that the H6 better matched the character of the Outback, since it's supposed to be an SUV alternative and most of those have sixes.

    For the Legacy, the turbo is more of a match.

    So I think it would make more sense to limit powertrains that way, vs. not offering a Legacy GT wagon with a manual trans, or dropping non-Limited models.

    They shuffle the lineup every year. Don't like the 06s? Wait for the 07s. Don't like the 07s? Wait for the 08s. They always change.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I did too and I agree. Looked very strange.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Sounds to me that they're trying to doing both -- save costs by cutting powertrain combinations while also adderssing market trends. The LGT wagon 5MT probably didn't meet their expectations in year 1. Also for the 2.5i Ltd range, most shoppers probably don't even consider manuals anymore. I just wonder how much longer until they nix the 5MT OBXT.

    The unfortunate thing is that other makes in the 2.5i Ltd range now offer 5-speed ATs w/stability and the OBXT/LGT range offer some form of 6-speed MT w/stability.

    Ken
  • satire2satire2 Member Posts: 22
    To be perfectly honest, I can't see the point in any Outback.

    To take a fine road car, jack it up, compromise its handling and safety, slap vinyl on its sides, is juvenile and tasteless.

    Of course it sells, though. This is America!

    The only possible point to any Outback is ground clearance. And no one needs extra ground clearance unless they live at the end of an unpaved, unplowed fire road.

    This is in no way a comment on Subaru. All manufacturers have responded to the SUV craze. If they kept making and selling intelligent cars, as they did before they discovered marketing, they'd be out of business in the U.S.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Save your criticism for SUVs, where it's justified -- the Outback is a far more reasonable vehicle in my opinion. I chose an Outback over a Legacy for off-road capability and driving in deep snow, two situations where the extra ground clearance is beneficial.

    Craig
  • aaykayaaykay Member Posts: 539
    I agree. I can certainly see the utility of the Outback, for folks who need more ground clearance, especially here in Minnesota. Moreover I believe it is the Outback (wagon) that pays the bills within Subaru to a large extent, in addition to the contribution from the Impreza line.

    I strongly feel that the real reason why the Leg.GT does not sell is because Subaru has done nothing for it in the way of advertising its capabilities. Any surprises that non-Subaru-afficionados are unaware that such a vehicle exists in the Subaru lineup ? If you don't know about it, would you seek it out ? The lame generic Japanese styling of the front-end don't help matters either. :(
  • stevehechtstevehecht Member Posts: 96
    I've been looking for these times everywhere on the web but haven't found them. Does anyone know what the typical 0-60, 45-65, and 1/4 miles ratings are for the 175 hp Legacy?
  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Member Posts: 1,798
    At least Subaru offers some interior color choices!

    VW and Mazda seem to revel in black interiors, which heat up terribly in hot climates and endlessly fog windows. Ditto most other performance oriented cars.
  • krzysskrzyss Member Posts: 849
    "At least Subaru offers some interior color choices!"

    I think you are joking. Subaru did offer interior colour choices in 2005. Since then outside and inside colours are married together.

    VW loves black for value edition Passat but anything higher has a choice of 2 or 3 from black, gray or beige or "Leather Latte Macchiato" (coffee?).

    Krzys
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The side cladding isn't useless as you might think.

    The lower doors on our Legacy have two dents on them that cladding would probably have prevented.

    My Foreser has cladding and can take 10 times the abuse that our unprotected Legacy can.

    Trust me, it is NIGHT AND DAY. Tough and durable vs. thin paint and automatic permanent dings to the sheet metal.

    -juice
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Good point Juice. My previous Outback had dings around the wheel arches. My 05 has cladding around the wheel arches and just has paint scuffs -- no dents. I was surprised how many dents are picked up in that area, and also how effective the cladding is at preventing serious damage. I'll take a paint scuff in plastic over a dent in sheet metal any day!
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Another amen. My old Legacy wagon suffered a large wheel arch dent from a runaway lumber cart in a Home Depot lot. And the extra ground clearance of the Outback is great in my unplowed alley every winter. The cladding on the 2005 and later models does look better than it did previously though.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,758
    Speaking of ground clearance, that is the one thing I lament about my '96.... it needs more! Granted, I do live at the end of what, in the lower 48, would probably be rated as an unplowed logging road, but there are times when my car gets high centered due to excessive snow/slush depths. They are rare enough instances to be tolerable, though, as the car tends to be fairly tenacious. :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • shrinermonkeyshrinermonkey Member Posts: 58
    I totally agree that the 2.5i enginge is perfectly adequate for almost any driver and will handle any normal driving situation. The desire for more an more power at the expense of fuel economy baffles me. I find it funny that people view 175hp as "inadequate" when similar cars not that many years ago had far less and the roads and speed limits were the same. I have been perfectly happy with my 2.5i wagon with an automatic transmission and have never needed more power.
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    And I will serve as the dissenting voice.

    I now have an 06 3.0R wagon. Previous to that I had a 98 OB with the 2.5L and auto tranny. I found the 98 to be fine out of the hole in city driving, but if I needed to merge onto a freeway from another freeway, I found the acceleration to be inadequate. I don't know what the real world mileage is on the current generation 2.5L OB's, but I have lost on average 1 MPG between my 06 compared to my 98. In purely freeway driving my 06 actually gets better mileage. So in my eyes, it is coming without much of a mileage penalty since my 98 is my measuring stick.

    In my opinion speed limits have very little to do with the desire for power. It let's me get up to speed quicker, which is important to me. It is not about going faster on the high end. Also those roads that are now the "same" actually have more traffic which makes me appreciate the quickness of my new car even more.

    Karl
  • aaykayaaykay Member Posts: 539
    As I mentioned in an earlier post, the power from the 2.5i is perfectly adequate for my purposes. What I am not happy about are the denial of features like a better AWD system, a rear LSD, better brakes, TPMS etc., to cars equipped with the said engine. Given the above features (at the very least the better AWD system), I would be happy with the 2.5i engine.
  • rsorganizersorganize Member Posts: 131
    Unexpectedly back in the market for a wagon that will last a long time (30,000+ miles/year), be fun/comfortable to drive and makes me feel/be safe in winter New England driving. Last 3 vehicles: 99 Volvo XC70 (great drive, huge repair bills), 2005 Subaru Outback VDC (fun/great vehicle, felt a little small-ish as the miles piled up) and Acura MDX (nice ride, lots of toys, pleasant/comfortable but kind of dull - and, oh yes: what was I thinking on mpg??!!).

    Looking to get smaller/better mpg, but have expectations - again: fun,comfort, safety and some of the 'toys'.

    Hope to act soon. Right now, looking at leftover 2006 Volvo 70R (reliability/repairs??)...2007 Subaru Outback XT (lots of fun to drive, now has VDC and a few tech upgrades new since 2005)...VW Passat (reliability?)...9-5 Sportcombi (what-no side curtain airbags??)...and, 9-3 Sportcombi (biggest concern is lack of AWD - even with stability control, will it match the other awd models in the huge amount of winter driving I do?).

    All thoughts and experiences will be much appreciated.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Hey Richard,

    You might also want to look at the Acura RDX. It's got more passenger space than the Outbacks, but less cargo space. It's a pretty nice vehicle, drives and handles very well, and ought to have real world gas mileage similar to the Outback XT (warning though, for intense city driving RDX owners are reporting MPG in the mid teens). If you like gadgets and don't mind spending more, the RDX tech package is probably appealing.

    I have an 05 XT, and it's been a great car. The LL Bean Outback is a great choice too. With VDC and other upgrades, I wouldn't mind an 07 myself (the 07 XT's MPG improved a bit over my 05 model). But, the 07 won't be hugely different from your 05, so it might not be as exciting to you as other vehicles.

    Seriously, I would stay away from the Euro cars you mentioned -- I have not heard great reports about reliability / maintenance costs with Volvo, VW, or Saab in recent years. Saab would be the best among those, but as you mention the lack of AWD is a concern. For my ski trip driving, I feel much better having AWD myself.

    Craig
  • rsorganizersorganize Member Posts: 131
    Thanks for the incredibly quick response, Craig. Been out of this for a while, but keeping track of the forums.

    Test drove the RDX, last week. Impressive technology and interior design, also pretty comfortable. Frankly, I thought the ride was a little harsh. Mileage-wise, not sure that I would be moving forward, as I fully expect gas prices to rise steeply, again, in the near future. And, I have also been reading about the mpg concerns.

    Drove the XT - the attractive new, darker gray. Seemed smoother, quieter than the RDX, expecially on the highway. Maybe not as roomy, but not too bad. And, really great performance.

    Really think the RDX mileage is roughly comparable to the XT? Actually, I was not that happy with my VDC mileage - 80mph on the Mass Pike and rarely broke 20mpg.

    Interesting that you like the Saab better than the Volvo and VW. Really like the look and drive, but wonder about some of the techie omissions. And, there is the lack of AWD. Drive all over MA, all winter, and lots of ski trips, too.

    Getting older, but these decisions aren't getting easier - especialy, with a soon-to-be 16 year old providing expert, selfless advice! (He'd do anything, if we would buy him a used WRX!)

    Thanks.
  • garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    Right now, looking at leftover 2006 Volvo 70R (reliability/repairs??)...2007 Subaru Outback XT (lots of fun to drive, now has VDC and a few tech upgrades new since 2005)...VW Passat (reliability?)...9-5 Sportcombi (what-no side curtain airbags??)...and, 9-3 Sportcombi (biggest concern is lack of AWD - even with stability control, will it match the other awd models in the huge amount of winter driving I do?).

    The XT doesn't seem to get great mileage, although with the SI-drive that may have improved. But for high highway driving the H6 is still tough to beat.

    I'd say the #1 vehicle cross-shopped with the OB wagon nowadays is the new Toyota RAV4 - don't know about MPG. Once you open the Crossover/SUV door you can add the Nissan Murano, Toyota Highlander, and Tribeca. The new Honda CR-V is bigger as well.

    I drove a co-workers new Volvo XC70 and found it to be ponderous, but roomy and lots of bells & whistles.
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