Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

paisan · January 2007

lower on the temp, I belive the auto-dim/temp mirrors are made by Donnelly.

-mike

lilengineerboy · January 2007

Its an auto-dim compass mirror.

FWIW, the spec for interior components on most cars is -30 to 100 c so if it works at all below that, you are lucky.

garandman · January 2007

Er55 is probably an ABS failure code - Speed Sensor. The speed sensors are magnetic rings on each wheel hub. A lot of road salt, grease, or a faulty sensor could be the cause but usually they're just dirty. According to one forum, "According to the service manual if you re-connect the diag connector by the fuse box under the dash, then press the trip knob during the guage sweep it will tell you if/what codes are present."

Tires are crap (Potenza RE-92). I really appreciate the grip of the GY Assurance TripleTred I had on the '96. Night and day. I have to keep these things on for the remainder of this winter, but there is no way I am keeping them beyond the summer.

Why keep them? they're poor in rain and snow but are quiet and have low rolling resistance. Subaru forums are full of complaints about these tires in winter. Nokian WR's are All Seasons with the Severe Service Snow rating (the Mountain Snowflake Icon) and would be a good choice if you are sticking with one set of tires.

I'm surprised it doesn't have a block heater. The Cold Weather package used to have the block heater as standard but I think they removed it somewhere along the line and made it a stand-alone option. But the heated base of the windshield is a great feature. I found the 4 seatings for the seat heaters silly - I pretty much turn them on full for a few minutes, then shut them off once the heat starts.

My 97 started without drama at -25 to -35 F (in VT) but it was broken in. Are you getting a battery blanket as well? I think Subaru sells one but I'd guess aftermarket ones work just as well.

It seems Subaru is dropping the Legacy wagon and the Outback Basic is designed to occupy the same market position.

xwesx · January 2007

Thanks for the reply. For the Er55, it happened while I was doing some turn around procedure on the highway to go back and check on a stranded motorist. When I turned around in a lot nearby I suffered some understeer because I was still naive and used to decent tires. The CEL came on then, so I am thinking it had something to do with the slippage. Oddly, the ABS deactivation did not occur until I had checked on the motorist, turned back around, and was accelerating on the highway. Above about 20, maybe 30 mph, the light came on and stayed on for the next 150 miles or so. The next morning neither the ABS nor the CEL lights were illuminated.

Regarding the tires - honestly cannot and do not want to afford another set right now. I plan to put a set of dedicated winters on it next Fall. Breakup will probably be a problem when my driveway snowpack turns to slush, but I can live with the week-long inconvenience to defer a $500 expense. I probably would not even notice how poor they are if I had not had a set of semi-decent tires on the other one. They are as good as the all-seasons that were on my '96 for the first two years I owned it. *shrugs*

The block heaters, on Subarus, are dealer-installed options. But, my surprise is that they did not install it as a matter of procedure upon arrival. I talked with the salesman about their standard winterization procedures and he said (verbatim), "We only put block heaters in and adjust the coolant. We don't winterize them like they do in Fairbanks." I was fine with that, as the other necessary heaters/adjustments are easy to make. Imagine my surprise when I fine no block heater as I am installing the oil pan heater and the outlet block! Grr... still annoyed at that. Probably would not be quite so annoyed if it was not -30 to -40 during the 48-hour period the car did not have the heater. As for the battery blankets, I do not think they are useful. As long as the engine (and transmission on an automatic) are properly warmed prior to startup, the battery pad makes no appreciable difference on either battery life or CCA. Maybe I am wrong here, but I had a battery pad on both my truck and car until the pads wore out, and the battery on my truck is 9 years old now - still works great, and only had the pad (operational) for the first 2 years. The car had been sans a pad/blanket for the past 2 years. The car started every time during those two non-winterized days, but it was extremely unhappy about it. I did have the oil pan heater on, so at least the oil was not sludge (5W-30).

The shifter and hand brake boots are both cracked in multiple places after that introductory cold spell. Subaru will be paying for new ones - and probably will every spring. I'm quite surprised this car is not better able to handle the cold.

Oh, and noticed the apparently common lift gate rattle this morning. I like the Basic - no regrets having gone with it versus the full trim level. Financially, I probably should have purchased in Seattle (I would have saved that $500 for new tires!), but oh well.

garandman · January 2007

Collected from other forums or my own observations. I'm sure there are more but here are things other OB wagon owners always say, "I didn't know that," when I show them.

* If you lock the window lock button, the lights on the other three windows go out on the controls and then come back on signifying the windows are 'turned off'
* When the lights are on and you adjust the dimmer setting the dimmer setting is diplayed on the trip display; iLL1-ILL6
* If you press the lock button on the key fob three times in five seconds it beeps the horn and flashes the lights to help locate the car in a parking lot.
* If you leave any door open or the trunk and you try to lock the car it will beep four times to let you know that something is open.
* You cannot lock the doors with the key in the ignition and engine off. They unlock again.
* When you start the car and the outside temp is below 37 degrees, the console will flash the temp as a freeze warning.
* The divider in the cup holders is removable. Twist it counterclockwise and you can take it out.
* You can press the control knob for the A & B trip odometers and it will light up even if the ignition is off.
* There is a second power plug in the center console.
* If you have the rear wiper on intermittant and you put the car in Reverse, it goes on full speed. The rear wiper on the wagon is speed sensitive. The Slower the speed, the slower the intermitten span, as you speed up, the span gets shorter.
* The sun visors have plastic panels you can pull out about 6" from each inside end to cover the whole side window or close the gap between them.

lilengineerboy · January 2007

That is great now I will have to play with that stuff when I am driving around today. I know about the freeze warning and the ILL (the ILL control went, well, ill and would flash that intermittently...took me a while to figure out what that was). The console power plug is where the phone charger lives, and the sun visor extension I thought was for when you put the visor along the side window, but I guess it works for both.

c_hunter · January 2007

The visor extenders are for when the visors are off to the side.

jeffmc · January 2007

The entire cupholder liner (not just the divider) is removable for easy cleaning, as is the rubber liner in the little cubby at the top of the dash. Also, depending on your phone, the flip-down ashtray makes a cool cell-phone holder. :shades:

wmquan · January 2007

I've read posts complaining about the Bridgestone RE-92A's (as well as some defending them). Got to experience how bad they are first hand this weekend.

On Saturday, it snowed lightly, putting a thin, wet layer on top of the compact snow and ice leftover from Wednesday's storms in the Pacific Northwest. I noticed on the way home that the ABS was chattering even when I was slowing down. Other vehicles didn't seem to have as many problems stopping, and I wasn't going fast.

My driveway is 30 feet down a steep hill. I slowly turned down the hill, but could not turn into my driveway. The Outback just slid downhill, and eventually the tail started swinging around. No traction at all. I let the tail go around, hoping to control my descent by sliding tail-first down the hill, with a gentle curb assisting me. I ended up getting to a stop 75 feet past my driveway. I let it down another 25 feet to avoid my neighbor's driveway.

I had to sand/salt the 100 feet to successfully climb back up.

Obviously there's no miracles when you don't have traction. BUT other vehicles didn't seem to have as many problems as I did. My 2001 MDX seemed to handle the slippery stuff better. Its AWD system isn't better than my Outback's, so it's got to be the tires (Michelin Cross Terrains vs. the Bridgestones). The Outback's tires were properly inflated and have only 13k on them.

So, my advice is, if you expect occasionally slipper stuff but don't need/want winter tires, add a tire replacement cost to your Outback acquisition. The stock tires are awful! I don't know how Subaru, a company that markets its vehicles go-anywhere capability, can provide such bad shoes on the Outback.

george2000 · January 2007

Does anyone know when 2008 legacy/outback will be available?
Does Subaru release the new models every year at the same time?

jeffmc · January 2007

Should be available for sale July-ish.

jeffmc · January 2007

"On Saturday, it snowed lightly, putting a thin, wet layer on top of the compact snow and ice leftover from Wednesday's storms in the Pacific Northwest. I noticed on the way home that the ABS was chattering even when I was slowing down. Other vehicles didn't seem to have as many problems stopping, and I wasn't going fast."

Same experience here w/the ABS/tire slippage. Only 8.5k miles on the orig tires. I'd really like to try some Nokians on my OB... At this point I'll probably wait 'til summer though.

Anyone comment on road noise on the Nokians vs. OEM tires?

wmquan · January 2007

Only 8.5k miles on the orig tires. I'd really like to try some Nokians on my OB.

We've all read good things about the Nokians, but I'm not sure if I want the small compromise in normal dry driving. It's a smaller compromise given that they're all-seasons, but it's not what I'd want for my XT. I'd settle for good quality all-seasons that can handle some occasional bad conditions. From what I understand, there are tires superior to the stock Bridgestone RE-92A's. Ones that are better in ALL phases -- dry, wet, and snow/ice.

Like you, I don't like the idea of buying replacement tires so soon after the purchase of our vehicles, and am hoping it can wait a bit. This IS the worst winter in my locality (Redmond/Bellevue) in the 12 years we've lived around here.

The Tire Rack survey sums it up pretty well:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+R- - - E92A&vehicleSearch=true&partnum=255VR7RE92A&fromCompare1=yes&minSpeedRating=V#Su- - - rvey

And they're near the bottom here:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=HPAS&width=22- - - 5%2F&ratio=55&diameter=17&tireSearch=true&autoMake=Subaru&autoYear=2006&autoMode- - - l=Outback%20Wagon%202.5%20XT&autoModClar=Limited&minSpeedRating=V

My wife is leery of driving the Subaru in snow now. That isn't the opinion that works well for Subaru.

garandman · January 2007

Anyone comment on road noise on the Nokians vs. OEM tires?
I have three sets of tires for my Outback: Goodyear F1 GS D3's; Nokian WR's; and Nokian RSI's.

The stock RE92A's are quiet, have low rolling resistance and decent dry handling. I can't imagine a poorer tire for an Outback in the snowbelt.

The Goodyears are AMAZING on wet and dry roads but helpless on snow and ice.

The Nokian RSI's are arguably the best studless tire on the market for snow and ice. They're not too noisy on a dry highway and have good hydroplaning resistance and wet stopping. Like other dedicated snows, wet cornering isn't very good, and they have no UTQG treadwear rating or warranty.

I only got the WR's last week but we have had them on our Mazda MPV. I had a chance to drive in the rain for a few days and on ice/freezing rain today.

These tires are just about the ideal tires for the snowbelt. I don't find them "squishy" in dry handling or highway use by the simple expedient of pumoing them up to 38/36 psi.

If there's a big storm forecast, I'll put the RSI's back on - because I can - but if I had it to do over I'd use the WR's from November through March, then use the Goodyears. The RSI's have proven overkill for the last two seasons. The WR's acquit themselves well against dedicated snows on snow and ice, but last much longer. They have a 50,000 mile treadwear warranty. They're not cheap - but if you need AWD, these tires will make an significant difference in stopping, turning and accelerating on snow and ice.

nickel · January 2007

First big snow in the Twin Cities, today, 7 inches in my neighborhood. Just getting out of my house, first corner, and pushing the gas softly, a 360 that finished luckily onto a powder snow curb. At least they cleaned the streets really fast this time, so when I came back everything was on asphalt again. It wasn't the Outback, were the tires. Worst mistake Subaru has ever made, that agreement with Bridgestone. On my former Forester, I had to change the OEM tires on 6 months (Bridgestones too) because they didn't get a grip. Those were Dueler HT.

snowbelter · January 2007

My 02 came with the RE 92 and they were terrible in the snow. They were hardly worn at 27k, but I threw them out and got Nokian WRs and they were great in the snow, ice, and heavy rain, and fine in the summer. Just traded in my 02 and the tires were showing wear with 38k on them, but seemed ok for one more winter.

My wife has an 04 OB also with the RE 92 and last week in the snow she slid all over so I just put a set of Nokian WRs on her car. Expensive. If we lived in a less snowy area, I would have considered the Bridgestone Turanza LSH or an LSV with an 05 OB.

I am now driving a 07 OB and I already see that the RE92A is not very good, but I better get at least one winter out of these tires.

zman3 · January 2007

Anyone comment on road noise on the Nokians vs. OEM tires?

I am switching back and forth between the OEM tires and the WR's on my 06 3.0R wagon. I can say that the Nokians are definitely noisier. It was quite noticeable driving out of the tire store the first day they were on.

Now that they have been on for some time I do not find the noise at all excessive. I have apparently gotten used to it.

snowbelter · January 2007

I, too, noticed the Nokians were noisier when I drove away from the tire store, and thought they were a little noisey on the highway when I had them on my car, but so bad that it kept me from getting a set for my wife's car.

smittynyc · January 2007

I'm sorry to read about folks having problems with the OEM tires on the Outback.

Interestingly, the first year of the redesign (2005), the Legacy sedans and wagons got the same tire (different size, obviously). But starting with the 2006s, the Legacys got a Yokohama tire -- the Advan A82. So far, I'm pretty pleased with them -- I went through a puddle taking up half my highway lane at 60+ without any problem, they track well, they're quiet, they have good bite, etc. The biggest drawback is that they have a laughably bad treadwear rating -- 160! I swear I'm seeing treadwear after 1.4K!

Anyway, I'm wondering if any fellow 06-07 Legacy owners could share their impressions about how this tire works in snow and ice. Assuming we get snow and ice in NY this year, I'd like to know what to expect!

ncc4 · January 2007

As a new ( and very proud ) owner of a 2007 Outback I have a couple of questions I could use help with.

The heater seems to have quite a low volume of air movement. My previous vehicle was a Camry and the fan would really blow a lot of air. The Outback seems a little restricted in comparison. Is this a "normal" trait, or have others noticed this and found a way to improve airflow?

Also, if you have a flat and need to install a fuse in the receptical in the underhood fuse box, what amp should you use? I can't find any reference in the owners manual. There is a selection of spare fuses inside the lid of the underhood fuse box so I've lots to choose from, but which is the right one?

Thanks
Nigel

c_hunter · January 2007

Which model do you have Nigel? I am wondering if you have the manual climate control or the automatic.

I had auto climate control in my 05 Outback XT, and it blew pretty strong with the fan on the highest setting. Obviously, the perception of the airflow differs depending on which vents are open/closed. I always tried to keep the outboard vents open, to make the airflow quieter and softer. When the outboard vents are closed, the middle vents blew too strong for my tastes.

I never ran into issues with heating or cooling that suggested more airflow was needed. If anything, the system would get too hot or too cold if you left it at a temperature extreme.

Craig

bat1161 · January 2007

I have to say that I've had no problems with my RE-92's. I have a 06 LL Bean OBW with 13900 miles on it.

This past weekend I did the 48hrs of Tristate with Paisan and company where we drove through back roads upstate NY and VT. There was mud, rain, and a little snow and I had no problems with the tires. Biggest problem was seeing due to the headlights being coated with all the road grime

.

Wish the OB had headlight wipers/washers!

Mark

kmclean · January 2007

I live in the Bothell/Kenmore area, and agree that this winter has been pretty bizarre, as today's snow confirms.
A couple of years ago, I bought a set of Goodyear Eagle GT-HRs for my OB - mostly for our typically wet winters - but they've proven to be quite good for snow (NOT ice). They now have about 25K on them, and allowed me to scoot up a very steep neighborhood street this morning. Steering control had been quite good, and braking (depending on the snow/slush/ice conditions) OK. They really do facilitate the get-up-and-go part, so getting stuck is not a concern - just don't get over-confident in the braking department. When I bought them, Tire Rack had good ratings all around, and they are excellent for both wet and dry. I got them at a good price at Woodinville Goodyear - in "downtown" W-ville. I believe they're still available.

Good luck - let's hope this craziness stops soon!

Ken in (snowy, icy, paralyzed) Seattle

ncc4 · January 2007

Craig, I have the "Touring" model available in Canada which has the manual climate control. The system puts out lots of heat, but there is very poor airflow, especially to the rear seats through the ducts that are underneath the driver/passenger seats. I checked to make sure the carpet wasn't in the way, so that's where the question of actual volumn of air flow came from. I haven't tried closing the outer dash vents as they help to keep the side windows clear in our lovely Canadian winter!

Nigel

xwesx · January 2007

You cannot lock the doors with the key in the ignition and engine off. They unlock again.

Let us take that one a bit farther:

*You can lock the doors with they engine running (key, obviously, in ignition!) if you are inside the car with the doors closed, but if you try to lock them with the door (driver's) open, they will all unlock.

*You cannot use the remote while the key is in the ignition (car can be running, on, or off).

*You CAN lock the car, not be in it, and have the engine running, but you have to outsmart the car - First, lock all the doors from inside using the driver door lock. Next, unlock the driver door (only) using the lock lever located next to the door handle (not the lock switch below the window controls). Finally, exit the car, close the door, and use a "door key" (second key - chipped or not) to manually lock the driver door.

A truly lovely feature. :mad:

c_hunter · January 2007

Ah, OK. I can tell you that the rear seat floor vents have never blown very strong on any car I have owned (Subarus and Hondas, with a Mazda thrown in along the way). They all just trickle air out onto the passenger's feet. I remember seeing the duct when I installed the underseat subwoofer in my Outback, and it is very small and skinny -- clearly not intended to carry much air flow.

garandman · January 2007

I, too, noticed the Nokians were noisier when I drove away from the tire store, and thought they were a little noisey on the highway when I had them on my car, but so bad that it kept me from getting a set for my wife's car.
What tire pressure are you running? I notice the nokians are noisy around 30 psi, not so much about 35psi.

We now have them on two cars and two friends with Subarus have also purchased them - one Outback and one Legacy GT.

snowbelter · January 2007

I asked the tire installer to put 34 in the front and 33 rear, and thats what I used in my car, too.

orangelebaron · January 2007

Most replies here are about the tires. How come no-one mentions that another issue is the over-sensitive ABS in use by Subaru?
I regularly drive other newish vehicles with ABS and the ABS does not kick in as easy as my Subaru. It's downright scary sometimes. Like when you hit a bump in the road when braking and you feel like you have no brakes for several feet.
I changed all 4 tires last winter to Yokohama Avids and it made no difference with the sensitivity. I have considering disconnecting the ABS this winter if we get snow! I read in other forums that some people actually do that.

paisan · January 2007

The ABS issue is related to the tires. There have been tons and tons of posts on NASIOC and here about the ABS, it is all related to the tires. Had the same problem on my Armada with the stock Contis and my Tropper with Bridgestone 684s.

-mike

xwesx · January 2007

Yes, and "kick in early" or not, the ABS makes all the difference in controlling the car during slip situations. Night and day does not even begin to impress the contrast.

Orangelebaron, are you saying that you think your ABS is engaging when your tires are not experiencing slip? I guess I am not fully grasping the phrase "kick in early."

paisan · January 2007

Well my point being if your tires are bad aka RE92s in the snow, and they slip, then you'll activate your ABS. If you have (an extreme example) Studded snows, and they don't lose grip, then your ABS won't activate. Simple as that, the Continentals that were stock "Highway All Season" on my Armada were horrible in the rain and snow and constantly activated the ABS, whereas now the ABS doesn't activate as easily with the Bridgestone AT Revos.

-mike

wmquan · January 2007

Agreed. I only heard/felt a lot of ABS chatter after the second storm topped off the first storm and made things really slick. At that point, the RE92A's didn't seem capable of getting a good grip, so the ABS fired off.

Different kind of vehicle, but years ago my Integra used to trip the ABS in very rainy conditions. After I replaced the stock tires with Dunlop D60A2's, the ABs didn't have to engage.

orangelebaron, is it possible that your replacement Yokohama Avids aren't much of an improvement for your conditoins?

paisan · January 2007

Yup that's exactly what I'm thinking.

The D60A2s are great tires by the way!

-mike

snowbelter · January 2007

For what its worth, the Avids with either H and V speeding ratings received a "poor" rating for snow traction in CR's most recent tire test.

I've said this before, but after installing the Nokian WR, ABS chatter all but stopped.

kyfdx · January 2007

Just for a quick reference.. What size are you running, and how much for the Nokians? I'm considering them for my CR-V..

ateixeira · January 2007

They were re-named SP Sport A2 when Dunlop updated them recently.

-juice

snowbelter · January 2007

$138 per tire plus balancing, valve stem, tire disposal fee, taxes, and more taxes. Thats in a 225/60/16. Was told that a 225/55/17, V-rated, and the size used by the current Outbacks is around $178 plus everything.

kyfdx · January 2007

I've got 205/70-15... So.. I'd think it would hopefully be about 20% cheaper than the 16" price.. That puts it in the range of the Goodyear TripleTred, which is definitely a premium price, but not out of line..

Normal dry road handling? How do you think it compares to a normal all-season tire?

Thanks,
kyfdx

snowbelter · January 2007

Similar to a normal all-season tire. The treadwear rating is 420, but at 38k my tires were showing quite a bit of wear. We get snow 5-6 months of the year and these tires are good for that kind of weather and also excel in heavy rains.

kyfdx · January 2007

Thanks for the info.. I start hating my tires at 40K, anyway...

jeffmc · January 2007

I have Dunlop SP Sport A2s on my '95 del Sol... and I like 'em. Grippy & sharp-looking. Makes my del Sol feel like it has athletic shoes on.

That car doesn't get driven much in the rain or snow, though... primarily summertime, so I can't really comment on the A2's all-weather abilities.

garandman · January 2007

Was told that a 225/55/17, V-rated, and the size used by the current Outbacks is around $178 plus everything.
I paid $168 per tire balanced and installed at Johns & Sons tires, Manchester NH.

mrk610 · January 2007

ON my 06 2.5i the lites on the windows switches stay off as long as they are locked . When I adjust the dimmer switch I don't get the iLL1-ILL6 on the trip readout.

Mike K

dudleyf · January 2007

None received!

Actually I have checked and checked again, even after the car has been sitting 24-36 hours on a level surface, and the dipstick still shows just a tad below FULL, so I cannot be convinced that I added too much...unless Subaru dipsticks are terribly inaccurate. THAT would be a whole 'nuther problem, if so.

Thanks to all for the dealer links and the suggestion of the Fumoto valve. I like the latter a lot, and will likely install one on my next oil change @ 7500.

Otherwise, what nice car. I wish the stereo were a bit better and the gas tank bigger, but those and the transmission hesitation if you floor it while rolling ~5 mph are the only complaints I have so far, and the last one I can easily work around.

xwesx · January 2007

Well, that seems like it should be a safe then. I sure miss the days of oil pressure gauges!

zman3 · January 2007

the transmission hesitation if you floor it while rolling ~5 mph are the only complaints I have

I don't know if yours really is a transmission hesitation or not but I know that my 06 3.0 would hesitate a lot at low speeds if I used regular octane gas. I now use only premium, which is typically 92 rating in Minnesota, and I have no more hesitation issues.

dudleyf · January 2007

I don't know if yours really is a transmission hesitation or not but I know that my 06 3.0 would hesitate a lot at low speeds if I used regular octane gas. I now use only premium, which is typically 92 rating in Minnesota, and I have no more hesitation issues.

No, this is not an engine issue I'm talking about. I've toyed with both regular and premium gas and the difference, if any, is too negligable for me to tell without instrumented testing. The "hesitation" I am referring to is entirely in the transmission, and has been mentioned by several others.

No matter what type of gas in your tank, try this: decelerate to a near stop, so that your foot is off the gas and you're rolling ~5 mph (such as rolling to a stop light), then imagine that light just turned green and stomp it. The car literally does nothing for about 2 full seconds while the transmission considers its options, then downshifts 4 full gears, then finally allows the throttle to go wide open. At this point it will launch with a surprising fury, tt's just that few seconds when you first hit the gas that it doesn't seem to know what to do.

zman3 · January 2007

I have never noticed that type of behavior and I am a fairly aggressive driver. I will try it and see how my car responds.

Karl

c_hunter · January 2007

How new is the car? It takes a while for the transmission control unit to figure out your habits and learn your style. And sport mode will help significantly (slide the shifter to the left but don't use the +/- feature). In normal mode, the transmission is very stingy with downshifts. In sport mode, it will downshift much more readily, with less throttle input.

After a month or so, I had my 05 Outback XT shifting just the way I wanted. When the battery died recently and the ECU reset, it went back to learning mode and I was reminded how painful it was to retrain the transmission. This is one feature Subaru could probably improve on -- instead of making the default shift program so frugal, maybe go with something in the middle and let it adjust from there.

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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