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The problem for MB is that the Japanese have raised the bar in the so called luxury bracket and MB may not be able to compete on brand image alone. However, their achievments in that regard, thus far, are remarkable.
I realize a lot of individual experience is only anecdotal, but my memories of purchasing a new 240d are very satisfying. Previous to that, I'd owned a couple of Volvos, VW's and assorted domestics. When I took the 240 back for its first oil change and, the dealer asked me for a list of service issues, I didn't have any.
That was a novel experience for me with a new car, and I didn't have any problems all of the time I owned it. That cemented MB in my mind as a quality product, and furthered the image of luxury I sought from the 3 pointed star.
Here in southern California, all varieties of Mercedes have become quite commonplace. In actual fact, if you want to drive something relatively exclusive, a Grand Marquis might be a good choice!
But with their production volume rising and the exclusivity dimming, MB is going to have to work hard to get people to shell out $80k for a quirky S series, when the staid Lexus could be had for a lot less.
Just looking at zueslewis' review on the car that needed 7 NAV systems installed only re-inforces this belief of mine. It is extremely unlikely---no, just about impossible---that 7 nav systems could be bad out of the box.
Until you or I know the failure rate per 100 of any Mercedes component we cannot say with any certainty whatsoever that the quality is below average. We have no basis for that statement unless we have a large statistical base for such an assumption. And of course we have to separate those reports of component failure from the installation or repair interference from human hands at the dealership.
This type of statistic, for instance, allowed me to say with some confidence that Saab head gaskets really sucked for a while there, because I knew that the failure rate was about 8% (that is 8 of 100 Saabs were pretty much guaranteed to blow a head gasket in their lifetimes).
But you hear of one Benz needing 7 NAV systems--well, a most distressing tale, but certainly no basis for a conclusion except the conclusion that a certain dealer doesn't know what he's doing OR that factory techs are not backing him up very well.
NOW CR is a bit better, because these are real people complaining about real things, and obviously CR gets a larger number of gross MB complaints than Lexus complaints.
What that means exactly is up for grabs, as pointed out earlier.
Pumping up volume is more of a stress on dealer service and training than on actual quality control. It's much easier for the factory to control what it does at home than what happens at dealerships.
And on top of all this, you have a near-ridiculous complexity level of electronics in cars, working in a very hostile environment.
I don't think ANY car company's reliability record is going to improve from this point in time.
Thanks for informing me about the need to replace the battery every 4 years. I was unaware. Neither the sales person nor the service dept. told me about this. I assumed wrongly that the service dept. would advise me in the same manner as for worn tires, brakes, low fluids etc. Isn't this service supposed to be covered by the so-called inspections included in the A and B expensive oil change services?
Notwithstanding the above, I still think the hi tech wizards at MB could figure a way to implement a warning system for impending battery failure. Is such a system available on cars of other manufacturers?
Not to make light of it, but you already have a load tester in your car--it's called the starter motor. If your car starts to crank more slowly, that's a good sign of a laboring battery.
It should say right on your battery when the warranty is up. That's usually as good an indicator as any that the battery is nearly done---especially with the demands put upon it by a modern car.
We can now await the anecdote about someone keeping their battery in their car for 9 years, but you know that's the extreme end of the bell curve, not what happens most of the time to most of the people.
I have a Benz diesel which requires an extra heavy duty battery. So I'm paying about $25 a year just for batteries, but my car starts first time every time.
However, it has been telling me that for the last 1.5 years. So far, I haven't listened.
Other than testing the battery under load, I'd still say the battery impedance sampling (for lead-acid batteries) would be a very good way to predict battery life.
Another problem, I could not fill up the gas tank because of back pressure in the tank, notified the dealer and took them week and a half to get back to me with the help of MB service rep.MBUSA should stand behind the good name and not the expensive but unreliable automobiles.
Here's how I look at it. There are several types of sources of reliability data:
1. Manufacturer's data - large sample and detailed.
2. CR, JD Power - large sample, not much detail.
3. The "Knowledgable Person". This is someone like Zueslewis. Medium sample size, detailed.
4. Personal experience. This is you and me and other posters. Small sample size, detailed.
Unfortunately, we have to discount the manufacturers data because we don't have access to it. That's leaves 3 other sources.
Myself and others have advised you to look at the large number of former MB owners posting on Edmunds that have had many problems with MB and have switched to Lexus and are happy. Compare to the number of former Lexus owners who have gone to MB and experiencing fewer problems with MB. I'm sure you'll get a lopsided count. If you're not convinced, I'm willing to take a few hours and do the count. I'll cite topic and post # and summarize the numbers.
My point is that if you take the 3 types of data sources available to us THEY ALL AGREE! It is not a matter of JD Power saying that Lexus are troublesome and CR saying that MB are troublesome. All these data sources agree that MB is significantly less reliable than Lexus and many other makes.
This does not even remotely "prove" that Mercedes is less reliable, or that people are switching from Mercedes to Lexus any more than they switch from Lexus to Mercedes.
Zueslewis' sample is not "medium" it is relatively small. Mercedes makes over 600,000 vehicles a year. Zueslewis is "in the trenches" as I am. We see a small part of the war, like the doctor in the Emergency room. We could not deduce the health of the community from what we see in ER.
Going to CR or to people like me or Zues for drawing decisive conclusions is like going to the media for conclusions about crime. If you watched TV all day, you'd think crime was much much worse than it actually is.
My point is always the same but I'll run 'em past you again:
1. Mercedes reliability reports have never been any better than they are now. Mercedes is not "slipping" because it was never "up there".
2. If you culled out customer fault (quite a few might qualify in Town Hall postings, unbeknownst to the poster who feels wronged but really isn't), and dealer error, you end up with Mercedes being no better or worse than the vast majority of cars produced today.
This is my contention anyway.
It's like the "full moon theory" that people go more psycho when the moon is full. Most likely, it's just that people are watching other people more carefully during the full moon and reporting more incidents. Same with reliability reports. There is more monitoring going on than before.
Some poor person shoplifts, nobody knows or cares. Wynona Ryder shoplifts, its in all the papers. Benz burns out a bulb, it's a big deal. Hyundai dumps its tranny, that's not news.
I'm not saying that benz are not great cars. The E class is one of my absolute favorites and offers a unique driving experience. The blend of solid construction, high speed handling, fit and finish are not seen on that many cars. The styling is exceptional and I think is going to withstand the test of time and look good 20 years from now. And I really want one. I really find it hard to see how MB will continue to upgrade this car ........... except for one attribute. Component and systems reliability.
I think it is too early to know what will happen with the new 2003 model, but the last couple of models do have enough histories that I'm going to assume it will follow in it;s predessesor's footsteps. I'm not referring to a bad light bulb or socket or a little electrical glitch that causes the car to be brought in for a minor correction. I'm talking big honking $$ parts that are not very hi tech. In my personal experience, head gaskets and radiators, shocks and struts, AC systems, etc. Failures between 30k and 70K miles. Repair bills that were averaging more than $2,500 per year and this was not at the dealer but at an independent. My gosh, it would have been another 50% higher still at the dealer. You had mentioned the incredibly solid feel of even ancient old benzes. I had planed on keeping this benz long enough to experience that, but soon realized how much it was going to cost me in repairs to keep the car that long.
Your argument that MB is no worse than many other cars is absolutely true. I'm thinking Jaguar, BMW, Audi, RR. I'm also thinking many US made cars. But just because other car manufacturers are still building automobiles with inferior parts doesn't justify it. The fact is that there is a new standard of reliability. I think that whether or not Lexus gives the same driving experience as MB is beside the point. The point is, overall, their reliability ratings are higher. And it is also true that Toyota has figured out how to build that reliability into it's cars so well that it offers this level of reliability at it's entry level vehicles.
The question then becomes, if Toyota can do this for their cars that are arguably inferior to MB .... when is MB going to start offering this level of reliability to it's supposedly superior cars? Maybe they don't need to. Certainly MB sales are at an all time high. But my personal experience lead me to purchase Lexus last time around, and has lead me into a protracted debate with myself as to whether I want to sacrifice the excellent(but not perfect)reliability I am experiencing now for the MB driving experience I crave in my next purchase.
A batteries voltage [measured to 0.01 volts] vs ambient temperature curve will tell you all you need to know.
As US largest independent repairer [2 locations 2,700 clients in data base] of Lexus we get a lot of insight and I can assure you that as the brand has changed [chasing innovation/ handling/ more performance] the quality has declined [suspension things that use to last 100-200k] were redesigned [to fail earlier] they were lightened to reduce weight or stressed more to improve performance.
The years 94-96 were the sweet spot same with Infiniti and so I hear from my MB technican friends the same story.
Actually we have never had a LS take more than 8 hours to repair if we had the parts in stock....except changing a heater core. The starter is a dog as is some AC work.
[in 6 years] We have never changed a LS400 transmission or engine even on 250-300,000 mile 1990 cars nor a drive shaft or differential [many I6 and V6 engines/trannies in the lesser models].
The one thing it lacks is a limited slip differential which can be added.
We have a few customers who mod them for performance but the 4.0/4.3 engine is a little weak compared to the 5.0 MB.
But I hear the new LS500 is just around the corner. Notice MB has already bumped up to 5.5.
Never having owned one, I'd take your word for it that the larger gas powered cars are/ were more finicky, but if this continues to be true, it poses a problem for MB.
The 3 pointed star is such a potent marque, that many people will overlook the foibles of the car just to gaze at it over the headlights, but, if MB doesn't make that symbol synonymous with quality and reliability, many more MB owners will become Lexus owners, than the reverse.
I think the main reason Daimler bought Chrysler was to shake up the sclerotic nature of German management, and eliminate its shortcomings such as rigid hierarchical structures and a "how dare you question us mentality". I think though, they only succeeded in making Chrysler more like themselves.
I still want an old 240 or 300D, because they do drive like 2 or 3 year old cars. Will their present versions hold up as well?
First, I agree with SDDW that if Toyota can build reliability, than MB should be able to also. I don't think that drivability (fun to drive) and reliability must be mutually exclusive.
As the battery in my E320 is buried under the back seat and thus inconvenient to check, it should be monitored by some light or message to warn of impending failure. I do not accept that this is not feasable. My battery suddenly died without warning - no slow starting or other indication. Getting towed to the dealer is a royal pain in the [non-permissible content removed].
I received conflicting advise from the service dept. and our host here. Service dept said they check the battery on their "B" service and add water or whatever if needed. Host tells us that no need to check periodically but rather the battery is a throw away after 4 years.
Bottom line: I had a 93 Lexus for 5 years with -0-problems. I mean nothing but oil changes and new tires and brakes. I've had 2 e-320s since then and have had several problems including a transmission replacement after about 25k miles. I [non-permissible content removed] and moan but will continue to stick with the E model, however my margin of tolerance is wearing thin.
This method is commonly used for large arrays of uninterrupted powersupply batteries, as the impedance goes up even slightly before the voltage drops in a faulty battery, giving you a little bit more of a lead time until failure, rather than relying on voltage alone.
I think any car with a battery in the back seat should have the battery rotated out on a periodic basis for that very reason, that it is so inaccessible to scrutiny...also, it's a long trip to the starter motor, don't forget that.
I really don't know how feasible an onboard battery tester is. I would have thought this would have been implemented a long time ago. But we don't have differential temperature gauges either, although we could, easily. So maybe it is deemed simply off the radar screen for most consumers. Give 'em a red light and forget it. You give a consumer numbers and they'll misinterpret them. Look how the number 250 on a water temperature gauge quickly became "H" or "hot" when people looked at the needle going past 212 and they freaked. (Nobody told them that radiator pressure raises the boiling point).
On a side note. The battery in the E-Class is actually quite easy to get to. The rear seat bench in the W210 has a quick release on each side. I'd bet anybody a beer that I'd have clear look at the battery within 20-30 seconds from opening a rear door. (It doesn't take any tools, either.)
As far as gauges are concerned: I'm also troubled by the dumbing down of gauges. The E-Class takes an interesting approach about 'dumbing down' the temperature gauge. Even in the US it's in degrees Celsius, not Fahrenheit.
Another little 'easter egg' is in the climate control: Press the 'Rest' button for more than 10 seconds with the engine running, and you'll get the indoor temperature in degrees Celsius. (Along with the self test return code of the climate control software.)
There needs to be a wising up and a level of common sense that allows us to be responsible for ourselves and our actions. After 3-4 years, if you see a battery on sale, buy it and put it in.
Sheesh. The next thing you know, people will be suing Mickey Ds because they didn't know that greasy cheeseburgers, fatty french fries and milkshakes could make you fat. What? They already have? Give me a break.
(On that note, you'll notice no one is suing Baskin-Robbins because ice cream made them fat!)
With as much critisim as I heap on MB, defining quality by battery life or problems with the fuel gauge doesn't seem fair to me. And there will always be some idiosyncrasies with cars ... even the Japanese cars. My Lexus is very prone to rotor warpage with the OEM ceramic brake pads. What are you gonna do? Doesn't mean the car is a bad car. It just means that that particular system could be better designed or that the engineers decided occasional warpage is acceptable in order to give most people 50K miles between brake jobs because the ceramic pads last longer and make less brake dust. I'm not willing to say the E class car is a bad car because of a few opportunities for improvement.
My personal E-class experience was more along the lines of catastrophic failure of rather mundane but very critical systems. Still every manufacturer is going to have the occasional bad car and perfect car. And in my 3MB experience, the other two cars, while costing more to maintain than a Toyota, were within my personal tolerance. Too bad we can't get the numbers by specific failre or repair.
On a sighlty different note: Perhaps the sealed unit concept is still somewhere off in the future, but auto manufacturers seem to have to be forced to reveal the diagnostic codes even today, making it very difficult for the independent operator. Thank goodness they are being forced to provide the codes after the car is out of warranty.
If you are a drunk and you sober up and start working in a shoe store, everyone calls it a miracle. If you were a college professor or engineer and you quit to sell shoes they'd call it a tragedy.
What Ford did for Jaguar was to simply implement modern manufacturing methods. I worked in England for 4 years and it was hard to believe how antiquated British industry really is. When Ford bought in the 80s, Jaguar was using a 1950s production line. Morgans are produced today using a wooden frame (ash). With the sale of Rover and Rolls to the Germans (which really irked the Brits), the largest British owned car manufacturer is Reliant. Their main product is a 3 wheeled plastic bodied car called the Robin. It has about 40 HP and requires only a motocycle license. Reliant is in and out of bankruptcy. I think the whole company is worth around $600k.
a) Replace the bulbs in the foglamps.
b) Replace all exterior lights.
c) Interpret the dreaded 'lamp defective' message, use a multimeter to find troublespots and remove oxydation from contacts.
d) Replace a rear window regulator.
e) Pull the instrument cluster and center console in search for defective lamps.
f) Know what type of clutch holder it takes to remove your particular fan clutch.
g) Can recite all locations in a 30-miles-radius from your home that will actually sell the recommended Mobil 1 0w40.
h) Know how to fight back your tears while forking over $1000 for replacement Xenons, after the plexiglass of the old ones has dulled.
i) Know where the wheel mounting tool is located and how to use it.
Oh, the joy ...
Wipers: -- Doesn't it make you want to scream with all these useless gadgets?
British Auto Industry -- more than one cynic has said that it might have been better if the Germans had destroyed all of Britain's and America's auto plants to the same extent that the British and Americans destroyed all of Germany's. That way, the Brits could have started from scratch again like the Germans had to, with more modern plants and machinery.
Of course this is a rather simplistic view of a tragic situation, but the point is well made nonetheless.
There is a funny story which may be true and may not, that after the Brits won Lemans with the Bentley (ah, my mind is fading...was it 1931?), that the Germans hired some spies to find out the secret. Somehow they managed to buy, through an intermediary, one of the old race cars (a common practice, to sell or junk last year's models and build new ones for the new season), and when they took it apart, they were amazed to see nothing new whatsoever in the way of technology. All it was was the clever use of old technology.
I think the Americans inherited this clever use of old tech from the 50s through the 80s, while the Germans and Japanese went merrily into super high tech.
Hearing all these stories of mysterious electronic failures makes me wonder if they aren't going further than they need to.
Just because we CAN build rain-sensing windshield wipers, do we really need to have them?
Benz used to be known (like Packard was) for solid sensible engineering. I'd hate to see these cars become show-boats for high tech drivel.
A simple compass should clearly be within reach.
In my opinion, the manufacturers' commissioning of J.D. Power for these studies demonstrates their validity.
I think will probably replace the light and clean the contacts anyhow. Makes me wonder if it may be more effective to replace all lights as part of the regular maintenance and spare me this aggravation. It would be a kind of pricey, though.
SRS system failure light has come on twice, and the TelAid defective light came on last week, sending me back to the dealer for the sixth time today. The CD player was replaced as defective, and the fancy electronic keys don't always work, even after being replaced. The audio system wouldn't come on for one entire day, and appeared to be a system boot problem (garbled dash). It seems this car has computer or software related problems. At least one of the service visits included "flashing" the computer module. It has also had the throttle actuator and central gateway replaced due to an acceleration problem. This car is over-gadgetized, and I'd hate to be the owner a few years from now when things really start going wrong.
Regards,
Taras
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/chassispdfs/Galileo.pdf
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/chassispdfs/BR_ElecCalipers.pdf
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/chassispdfs/BR_ElecDrum.pdf
By the way, does anybody own, or owned, a Volvo from the '90s and experienced the same niggling problems found on your Mercedes products? I have (and love) a '93 850, but I am forever chasing these gremlins and defects. These Volvos sure have some soul, though.
Now, I have followed this discussion on the annoying issues that seem to plague the newer Benz's. That will be something I'll have to look at 2 or 5 years down the road when the price of gas stabilizes again and I buy another 5-year old Mercedes.
L-O-N-G way to recoup the depreciation loss on your Benz and the expense of the VW purchase. The one overwhelming bright spot in diesel ownership is that if we find ourselves in another fuel shortage situation (not unlikely given the current and anticipated world political climate), diesel fuel WILL be available. Virtually all heavy commercial transportation and most agricultural implements are diesel-powered, and home heating oil is for all intents and purposes good ol' #2 diesel. Jet aviation fuel isn't too far removed either. It'll be pricey, but it will be there at truck stops. I do recall being smugly self-satisfied at passing blocks-long lined cars waiting to get gas on their odd-even days while I cruised right into a T/A truckstop off the 10 and started pumping my fill any time and any day of the week. One major potential fly in the ointment is that if the hostilities with Iraq result in a protracted, messy war, and the Venezuela situation goes to full civil war, diesel deliveries may be diverted to military needs. Commercial transportation and agricultural interests might then take precedence over civilian descretionary driving for remaining stocks. Buying the VW turbo-diesel may well make sense in your situation, but I'm not convinced actually selling off your apparently well-maintained Benz is really in your best interest. Having the flexibility of a gasoline powered car garaged with at least half a tank of fuel, in addition to your turbo-diesel VW, could be more than convenient.
When I took it into the dealer, they told me that these engines didn't run that smooth in park. Said something about being due to the liquid filled motor mounts. Are there any other owners experiencing this? I'm wondering if I have bad motor mounts.
Here's the scoop:
120,311 miles: Front brake pads, rotors, struts.
120,567: Drivers side window stuck.
125,708: Replaced rear load-leveling shocks. Power steering system serviced.
128,265: Transmission repair to fix reverse.
152,530: Replaced engine wiring harness and battery.
168,000: Replaced air conditioning evaporator.
Misc. repairs included a tail-light lens (probably done in by a shopping cart); an exhaust pipe hole; and the sunroof stuck open. The car's current repair needs are the transmission O-rings and rear pinion seal.
I also had complete services done at 120,311 and 150,951 and tires at 128,061 (Michelins, w/alignment) and 155,406 (Toyos, holding up fine). Oil changes all done on schedule.
ONE MORE THING: The "check engine" light was an intermittent annoyance beginning the day we bought the car. The EGR valve is bad, but I'm going to wait till the engine needs more major work before replacing it. The car runs fine and starts good. We don't have emissions testing where I live. When the A/C evaporator was replaced, they dismantled the entire dashboard, and I thus had the opportunity to "fix" the check engine light. I'm sure this is pretty common. I wish I had thought to ask them to replace the front stereo speakers also! They are worn out.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.