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Comments
The only time I've ever smelled it without the window down was after a brisk acceleration followed by an immediate stop... I expect that the plume of exhaust that was being "dragged" behind the vehicle simply enveloped the vehicle when I came to a stop. Probably normal too... watch an old vehicle that burns oil in traffic sometime and you'll see what I mean... the blue cloud surrounds it when it stops.
Except for pickup trucks, every vehicle I've ever owned (dating back to 1970s vintage models) has always had a warning in the owners manual about driving with the trunklid (or back window) open and that doing so could cause exhaust gases to be drawn into the vehicle.
On page 247 of the 4Runner manual it says the same thing... "Keep the back door and back window closed while driving. An open or unsealed back door and back window, may cause exhaust gases to be drawn into the vehicle".
of course, right below it says...
"If you smell exhaust fumes in the vehicle, drive with the windows open and the back door and back window closed. Have the cause immediately located and corrected."
and the less-lucky swerve, hit a pole, or flip over in the ditch from the carbon monoxide. if you just had a headache or "thick ears," you were really lucky today.
that's the reason all the manuals say do NOT open the tailgate when driving.
Just curious, if Toyota has already admitted the problem by repurchasing a 4Runner for the same problem, can I use that in my favor?
Restricting that info helps Toyota. And yes, all manufacturers make it difficult to get a repurchase or compensation. Then again, only about 5% of the people who think they qualify for/deserve a repurchase actually meet the intent of the law.
I know it's tough - I do this for a living....
It seems to be mostly the V8 models, but some V6 model owners have reported it too. Here's the deal....
There's a vent located on the left rear of the vehicle that seems to be allowing exhaust to enter the cabin under acceleration. The reason it's almost exclusive to the V8 is that it has more displacement and thus produces more exhaust and increases the probability of gas entering the cabin. The vent should have been relocated on V8 models farther away from the exhaust pipe to eliminate this hazard. This is a design flaw that should have been caught in qual testing before release of the 03 model.
Who knows what will happen, Toyota is like the Borg, it's all about the cost to correct a defect versus fighting it, but I'm filing a Lemon Law complaint and keeping up the pressure on Toyota who needs to be accountable for there defect.
Regards, Bill
Judging by what others have posted, I'm not even sure if it's worth bringing this to my dealer's attention because of the apparent lack of solutions. Any ideas on where I should focus my efforts in order to (hopefully) get this problem solved?
Thanks
http://www.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/results.cfm?s- tart=61&SearchType=DrillDown&type=1&year=2003&mak- e=TOYOTA&model=4%20RUNNER&component_id=0
If it doesn't come up then go to the nhtsa site and input 2003 4Runner. Unreal!
I really am at a loss because during the hearing I told them that the exhaust was inside the cabin, Toyota admitted to the problem and told me to call the EPA and put a tailpipe extender.
So let me get this straight...Toyota says " we have a problem with exhaust gas getting sucked into the cabin, but it's your fault because you shouldn't push the accelerator that hard? I'll bet my 4Runner that NCDS is paid by Toyota.
I'm proceeding to the state sanctioned Lemon Law. A real judge will preside over this hearing. Toyota's official word is that it's OK. I'm taking my newborn to the MD just to get checked out.
What a scam. Just don't give up.
But really, can you fathom that the Toyota Manufacturing rep says "we have a problem with exhaust entering the cabin in the V8's and you should put a tail pipe extender on". They had a very weak case and they never denied the problem. That's what is so amazing. How could someone hear that and think it's OK. Do you know if NCDS is paid by Toyota?
The thing you have to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is a "significant impairment of use safety or value". And not just your opinion. This is an area where your opinion simply doesn't count.
An automotive appraiser, writing a formal evaluation of the vehicle based on its engine management issues and the warranty/service history effects on value is a good start. Having the guy testify for you is much better.
Having instrument-produced data is priceless, but be prepared for them to trot out "acceptable specifications" that your results may fall in - if so, you have no case at all.
I'm not talking about anything difficult or dramatic or permanent or expensive. Just a few dollars worth of plastic pipe and some duct tape or similar to divert the exhaust stream to the side a few inches. Maybe an hour invested in an experiment. This would redirect the exhaust away from the stagnant low pressure area at the rear of the vehicle. See my post #6923 "Smell experiments" in the main 4Runner discussion.
Also, is it possible that (because of imperfect body/door fit or weatherstrip damage or bad installation) there is a gap in the rear hatch seal? A strip of plastic from a trash bag, an inch or two wide, anchored along both edges with some removable transparent tape (the low-stick version of regular "Scotch" tape) could be used to temporarily seal off the entire rear hatch. If that made a real difference, it would readily point to a fix that the dealer could make.
I've read several things comparing the hazard levels of these sulfur compounds with the levels that humans can detect. I don't see clear agreement. In addition, modern vehicles with oxygen sensors and closed-loop engine management may not produce enough carbon monoxide to be a certain problem. So resolving these issues on the basis of danger to the occupants is difficult. An opportunity to consume a lot of time and effort, with an uncertain result. If I had the problem I'd be much more inclined to take the situation into my own hands and see what I could do. But that's just me, and I don't have the problem.
None of this is to imply that Toyota (and the many other manufacturers that have the problem) shouldn't be doing more to clarify the cause and help with solutions.
Dare I say, my 90' mustang had fewer problems.
I plan on thinking long and hard on my approach in court. Maybe they will recall it. When they do, I'll be the first in line down at the dealer where the service mgr said " I smell nothing"
If it keeps breaking maybe I'll hit the 30 day rule. I think I have 10 already.
Thanks to both of you for for some good sound advice.....keep it coming.
I'm sorry to bear bad news, but judges HATE lemon law suits and only tolerate the really radical ones - 4 transmissions in 15,000 miles on a 20,000 mile car. "Less significant" ones get thrown out or forced to settle.
"If you smell exhaust fumes in the vehicle, drive with the windows open and the back door and back window closed. Have the cause immediately located and corrected." (p. 239)
Had I followed this advice, I would have taken my 2003 4Runner V8 into the dealer 52 times in the last month. Maybe this is the solution, warranty claims, free rental car every day.
Seriously, everyone complaining to NHTSA is an important step.
I've been through the same drill many of you have been -- Toyota saying there is no problem, trying every brand of gas available in MD/DC/VA.
Let's keep sharing what we find out. Maybe we will come up with a solution.
The lemon law and Mag-Moss warranty act center on your vehicle being unique and substantially impaired - none of them are unique, because many vehicles do this, and it's just a smell - annoying, sickening, whatever, but it's just a smell and has absolutely no effect on the way the vehicle operates.
When you're pursuing a lemon law case and the arbitrators find out that the vehicle runs just fine, you're sunk.
This issue, while offensive to some and not so to others, IS NOT a Toyota issue, it's an EPA issue. Cars and trucks from every manufacturer are capable of generating this smell given the right scenario - blame the EPA, not the manufacturer.
Then, we can blame ourselves for putting greenies in the government that legislate the automobile until it smells bad and its brake rotors warp easily (another EPA-caused recurrent problem).
Look at it this way, if the EPA took all the sulfur out, the vehicle would still suck exhaust gas in to the vehicle. Toyota admitted this. NOw, the question is.....is it a dangerous level? Answer, probably not, short term. But the long term effects can't be good. After all, that's what the clean air act and other related laws are all about....the long term exposure to low level emissions.
But then again, without data, that's just an opinion.
Sounds like grounds for a class action lawsuit, but only if someone can prove harmful levels of noxious stuff.
Trial judges typically don't allow any information in that involve settlement proceedings.
Also, the only way the Toyota guy will testify is he's subpaoened to do so by an attorney that YOU hire.
Rotten Eggs, Hydrogen Sulfide, H2S by corollagold Aug 25, 2003 (4:25 am)
O.K., all you Rotten Egg complainers. Listen up. I called the nationally syndicated Clark Howard radio talk show last week and discussed the problem. My call was triggered by his monologue about only some of the most elite cars needing something more than the lowest octane. He suggested that I register my complaint with the NHTSA people - www.nhtsa.gov . (Suggestion - key it in once for the ENGINE, EMISSIONS category, copy it before submitting it, then enter it again under the ENGINE, EMISSIONS, CATALYTIC CONVERTER category. That way, they will see it two ways, and can't say we didn't enter it right. Limit, 2000 characters, so be succinct.)
Clark also suggested that I make the same complaint to www.autosafety.org which has no character limit, near as I can tell.
Well, the second one paid off. At least they were nice enough to respond, and here's what they had to say.
"The engine in the Corolla is running too rich. There's not enough oxygen in the fuel mixture. The sulfur in the gasoline is being reduced to H2S rather than being oxidized to SOx. Call Toyota at 800-331-4331. To get EPA's assistance in the matter, call Sheena Dupree at 202-564-9414 who works on warranty issues for them. Or you can write the head of the office at the below address.
" Margo T. Oge, Director
" U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
" Office of Transportation and Air Quality (6401A)
" 1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
" Washington, DC 20460
"Tell Toyota you are contacting EPA. That will get their attention."
He signed his name, which I'll not repeat here.
So later today I'll get the ball rolling. And now you too have something to work with, but please, Please, PLEASE be sure to report YOUR problems to those two (now three with www.epa.gov ) organizations, too. Only if enough of us bellyache - and to the right people - will we get Toyota to fix a problem that never should be happening. FWIW, my neighbor bought an '02 Honda Civic just before I got the Corolla. Neighbor uses the cheapest unleaded gas he can find, and has ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with rotten eggs smell from his exhaust. I bought the Corolla because I felt it was mechanically superior to the Honda. It doesn't need a timing belt replaced every xxx miles - Toyota went to a chain drive for the overhead cams, in '03, and the rest of the engine dates back several years, so the design is pretty much "proven".
Again, Sulfur is an indication that emissions are present. But when you use low sulfur fuel and the smell goes away do you think that the rest of the exhaust refuses to enter the vent? I think not. It's not magic exhaust. (like the magic bullet theory)
letter from Toyota
Dear Mr. Briscoe,
Thank you for your recent correspondence.
The smell that you are referring to is caused by the high sulphur
content in Canadian gasoline. The smell is in fact indicative that
your Toyota 4Runner is operating properly. This is not an uncommon
situation with most manufacturers today.
The sulphur contained in the fuel transforms into sulphur dioxide
which is then transformed into sulphur trioxide by oxidation and
accumulates on the catalyst resulting in hydrogen sulphide by
reduction. This will generally occur when the vehicle begins to run
rich, such as when you are stopped, climbing a steep hill, or braking
hard to slow down. The hydrogen sulphide is expelled from the
exhaust pipe all at once. It is the hydrogen sulphide which is
responsible for the odour.
This odour is particularly strong when your vehicle's catalytic
converter is new and dissipates gradually as the vehicle gets older
Thank you for taking the time to contact us, we hope this information
is helpful.
Sincerely,
Lisa Davey
Toyota Canada Inc.
(Note, my truck has 14,000 miles on it, the smell is worse and the cat is certainly not new.)
Completely. That's why I can't label it a "significant impairment of use, safety or value" and why, as an appraiser with LOTS of vehicles behind me, couldn't "hit" it on value.
Repeat after me: "Most manufacturers today"
What is even more interesting to me is that I mentioned it to my wife, and she said that she smells it, but that she smells it in every car she has ridden in for the past few years. She is the proverbial princess from the princess and the pea, so she should know, but I found it fascinating nonetheless.
Where is that left-rear vent?
As far as I am concerned emissions entering the cabin is not normal and are totally unacceptable. They enter the cabin with all the windows up, and increase in volume and intensity when the side windows or sunroof is open and gags everyone who is in the vehicle. I purchased the 2003 4Runner for recreational use and for commuting to work. The fact I have to deal with the sulfur smell/emissions entering the cabin on a daily basis is a real disappointment. I have switched to ARCO Low Sulfur Supreme with a negligible improvement and drive much of the times with the windows up at the expense of my Golden Retriever. This is not the way I like to drive nor should I be forced to drive this way, but even with all the windows up and the re circulating button activated, the sulfur smell enters the cabin.
When I first purchased my 2003 4Runner on 11/5/02 and discovered the nasty emission smell coming into the cab on the way home, I complained to the dealership the following day. At that time I checked Edmunds discussion groups and could not find any other complaints regarding the sulfur smell, but now there is plenty of discussion. I took my vehicle in repeatedly to two dealerships and eventually complained numerous times to Toyota USA. I received all kinds of feedback from it's the gas, it's normal, drive with the windows up, it will go away in a few weeks to a year. Toyota USA did respond and a regional tech inspected the emissions on two occasions. The findings each were normal, but during the second inspection the Toyota Regional Tech turned on the re-circulating button. After reading these posts I beieve he knew the vent port was potentially contributing to emissions entering the cabin. In almost a year since purchasing the 4Runner Toyota has failed to not only remedy the problem, but to address the health concerns posed by myself regarding emissions/sulfur coming into the cab.
I truly hope a recall occurs.
Bill