Sulfur Smell from Toyota 4Runner

rogers12 · November 2003

I don't think a comparison with another vehicle is necessary. What I think you should compare is the CO in the 4Runner with the outside air perhaps on top of the truck. I don't think any increase in CO would be allowed.

corancher · November 2003

There's a ton I don't know about emissions technology, but I can offer a few bits (and some speculation) for those who are interested in this angle on the smell issue.

First, measuring CO inside the cabin may not be a good indicator of how much exhaust (or smell) is getting in. CO is a product of incomplete combustion, an overly-rich mixture IIRC, but it appears that even bad-smelling vehicles may not produce enough to cause concern. Today's vehicles usually burn too well to produce significant CO, and one hears occasional stories of attempted suicide-by-auto-exhaust where the only result is a really bad headache. Also, most vehicles bring in some outside air even while on recirculate, and a temporarily high CO reading could come from the clunker in front of you. Finding persistently high CO in the cabin would definitely be bad and actionable, but this may not help the smell issue much.

kheintz1 has posted a link (thanks!) on the main 4Runner thread with some good information: http://www.swri.edu/10light/catalyst.htm I could extend this a little to say that vehicles today run in a "closed loop" mode most of the time, where they use oxygen sensors to provide continuous feedback (that's what "closes the loop") on fuel mixture. They appear to try to run as lean as possible, to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy. They don't want to run too lean, though, because of the risk of detonation and engine damage. Under heavy throttle the risk of detonation due to overly-lean mixture is much greater and many (most? all?) vehicles switch out of the closed-loop mode and run extra rich to prevent detonation. Fuel actually cools the engine components. They can't run closed-loop in these situations because the speed of reaction of the oxygen sensors and the rest of the system is just too slow to ensure that they don't get too lean and start to detonate in the transient conditions of heavy acceleration.

In the 4Runners there are extra technologies at work. Both the V6s and V8s have *heated* O2 sensors (one on each side), presumably to get accurate readings and lower emissions while the engine is still warming up. The V6s (but not the V8s as far as I can tell) also have a pair of air/fuel ratio sensors in the exhaust headers upstream of the regular O2 sensors. I'm guessing that these additional sensors help out at times when the regular O2 sensors are too cold or too slow or something like that.

The presence of these additional sensors may help explain the difference in smell behavior of the V6 and V8 models. I suspect that heavy smell production is a consequence of a very specific combination of factors that don't happen very often in most vehicles, but in others (maybe due to marginally-performing O2 sensors, for example) these conditions are frequent and persistent. That would explain why most modern vehicles will stink bad once in a great while, but only a few of them stink consistently.

Of course the other factor here is how/why the stink gets inside the vehicle, and why the 4Runner may have a specific problem in this regard. Lots of other posts cover that, so I won't say more here.

I suspect that if one ran a data logger to compare a stinky vehicle with a non-stinky one while driving the same route under the same conditions one would see some sort of clear difference. The data logger could plot things like O2 sensor readings, throttle position, fuel flow, mass air flow, RPM, ignition timing, and many more. I can only speculate, but I'll bet that the sensors in stinky vehicles are a little off in their readings, and this interacts with the software in the engine computer to cause frequent, brief, periodic mixture "excursions" to the rich region which burn off the sulfur in the catalysts and cause the smell. The sensors in question may be in spec, but are off enough ("lazy" in the words of rcgator's tech) to trigger the problem. This could be the fault of the sensors or the computer software or a combination of both.

One logical experiment is to just change out both O2 sensors, perhaps one at a time. They're not terribly expensive, but I suspect it would still cost a couple hundred dollars or more, including labor.

user777, I think you may be on the right track in also speculating about fuel delivery problems, especially where catalytic converters are ruined. I think you can ruin them by getting excessive unburned fuel to them, and I believe they overheat in these cases. AFIK, all modern engines don't actually measure the fuel delivered by their fuel injector systems. They just know the amount a normal injector will deliver (CCs/minute) under normal fuel pump pressure, and calculate fuel flow based on how frequently and how long the injectors are commanded to open by the engine computer. The injectors are just simple on/off devices, so this is easy to do. But if an injector flows too much or is stuck on or is slow to respond, the computer and entire emissions system can be thrown off.

Sorry about the long post. I hope it's been worth the bandwidth for somebody!

rogers12 · November 2003

Good post. My reason for evaluating CO in the passenger compartment was to either ease people's minds about exhaust gases or to find if the levels found were dangerous. I agree that normally the CO levels in exhaust are very low, but if the system is malfunctioning, then I would not assume that normal CO levels are found in the exhaust. If people are smelling the sulfur-containing emissions in the passenger compartment, then this might be an important issue since obviously there is some exhaust gases getting into there.

Secondly, to eliminate the contributions by other vehicles, this would need to be performed away from them, at least for a significant period. Either that or subtract the levels found outside of the vehicle from that inside. Either way, knowing the CO levels found or knowing they are less than detectable by a sensor is important. To me, the smell is a secondary issue. The primary issue is determining if there is significant ingress of exhaust gases into the passenger compartment under normal operating conditions.

rcgator · November 2003

I couldn't agree with you more:

"To me, the smell is a secondary issue. The primary issue is determining if there is significant ingress of exhaust gases into the passenger compartment under normal operating conditions."

I do have a CO alarm in the car, but it's up front by me. I should put one in the cargo area since the smell always seems to originate from back there anyway, and I assume that the exhaust fumes are coming into the car from somewhere in the back.

My CO alarm is one of those that would go off if the CO concentration got to a certain level, but not one that gives me a readout of ppm or anything. I think I'll get one of those to put in the back. The alarm has never gone off, by the way.

4rnr · November 2003

I have tried driving around with a CO detector(type that goes off after a certain level) that I attached to the rear headrest support and the alarm has not gone off. My '03 Ltd. V8 creates a minor smell , say every 4 th. day of driving. What does concern me more is the fact that it inhales the fumes from the cars in front of me for eg. a diesel golf made the Runner a total stink bomb. I know now that the recirc. button must be on when doing city driving.

rogers12 · November 2003

I agree. I would rather inhale the exhaust from my vehicle, since it is minimally contaminating my interior, than that of the many cars in front of my with unknown engine maintenance and emissions.

tacoviva · November 2003

Anyone consider long term exposure. Even small amounts over time can be very detrimental. Since CO builds up in the blood stream, there are serious long term consequences of it entering the cabin, even at low levels.

Something to think about.

ratpatrol · November 2003

I spent several months researching SUV's and couldn't wait for the 2004 4Runners to come out. I was pretty well set on purchasing a Sport with the V8 or possibly a Limited. About 2 weeks ago I test drove a Limited with the V8 and almost gagged when I lowered the rear window at 70mph. The salesman "acted" very surprised and said "Gee I'll have to get the service department to check out the Catalytic Converter". Not knowing of the problem I accepted his explanation of a "defective converter". Other than the "STINK" I loved everything about the vehicle but wanted to wait until a few Sports came in before picking out a model, color etc.

Then a few days ago I happened on this particular forum and I am back to square one as far as looking for a vehicle. For 30 to 40 thousand dollars there is now way I'm going to take a chance on one of these "stink bombs". Anyway thanks to all who have posted here and to Edmunds for a great service.

Anyone have any suggestions on a new vehicle? I live in the snowy Northeast so 4WD is a must, V8, real frame, not to too huge, $40,00 tops.

Brian

Maybe I'll keep my old F150 and pick up a BMW Z4 or a 2 year old Boxter.

rcgator · November 2003

Taco, I was very concerned about this, especially since I do a lot of driving around the city with the four kids in the car.

When I found out that the smell I was getting was from my tailpipe, the first thing I did was consult with my kids' pediatrician. I spoke to three doctors in the practice, and they all assured me that CO has to build up to a critical point in one acute instance in order to cause damage, and that it does not, in fact, have cumulative effects because it does not build up in the body. Assuming you have not been exposed to large amounts, once you start breathing oxygen again, your body's oxygen level returns to normal (treatment for those who are exposed to large amounts, like firefighters are when fighting large fires, includes the use of hyperbaric oxygen chambers to reestablish normal oxygen levels).

user777 · November 2003

was both a pleasure to read and very informative. an exceptional good use of bandwidth. thanks.

highlander7 · November 2003

Keeping you old F150 and picking up either a BMW Z4 or a 2 year old Boxter is not a bad trade off.
From what has been written on this forum, some people never experience these odors and others complain of the smell all the time. I would rather buy a truck that never breaks and find a solution to this only problem.

I spoke with the owner of a detail shop about his experience with his 04 V6 Limited 4Runner. He pulls a 3000 lb. boat with ease. He is very satisfied with this truck. He traded in a 2003 Dodge pickup and really took a beaten, he did not say how much of a loss but said it was substantial. The Dodge had some quality issues, so far his Runner has been perfect.

I asked him about the sulfur odor. He said when he accelerates hard with the back window down he gets an odor only one time, after that he has no problem. He went to a muffler shop and they advised the fix was to cut the tail pipe and replace the tip with a curved pipe that diverts the exhaust to the side. Cost was about $80.00.

This is the same fix that others have suggested in this forum. I agree that Toyota should repair this if it is a real problem.

I have decided that if I experience the odor with my new 4Runner, I will not wait for a recall or a TSB to correct it. I will either try the $80.00 fix or most likely have the Borla system installed which also is side exhaust.

Has anyone had their exhaust diverted to the side to correct the odor problem? How well did this work? Where did you have it done? Cost?

I do not believe, for the money, there is a better midsize SUV on the market then the V6 or V8 4Runner. At this time, I will never consider anything other than Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura products. I have had costly experiences with other makes and I do not believe they are anywhere close to Toyota or Honda quality. Just look at resales. When my new 4Runner arrives I will sell my 2002 4Runner (have it presold) Sport Edition with 37,000 miles for $24,500.00. Two years ago I paid a little over invoice, $31,259.00 for this truck. I do not consider this a substantial loss. And a dealer would sell this same truck certified for around $28,000.00. Try getting that value out of a two year old domestic.

My truck may not arrive for a month. After I break it in, I will post if I do or do not have an issue with the sulfur smell.

corancher · November 2003

rcgator, my understanding of this hazard matches yours. CO is not toxic in the ordinary sense, it's just that it binds much more tightly to the hemoglobin in blood than oxygen does, displacing the oxygen that keeps the brain alive. If the CO exposure is temporary or slight, the blood concentration of CO goes up for a time, but doesn't get high enough to be a problem and it eventually falls.

That's why the treatment for acute exposure (high CO concentrations in the blood) is a hyperbaric chamber, where the high partial pressure of oxygen can drive the CO out of the blood much more rapidly than at normal pressure, preventing further damage.

As a practical matter, of course, it's undesirable to have much exhaust get into the cabin, even if CO is low. That's why Toyota's choice to place the exhaust outlet at the back of the vehicle instead of the side continues to be a puzzler to me. They're an engineering-driven company and usually have a reason for what they do, but I can't fathom it here.

swschrad · November 2003

it binds it like cement in a drainpipe. hemoglobin is pretty good about releasing oxygen to cells, and taking up CO2 and releasing it in the lungs... but when it gets sludged up with CO, it is very difficult to get it to release the poison and take up either CO2 or O2 again. best results for CO poisoning are received when the patient(s) are locked into a decompression chamber that is overpressurized with medical oxygen.. and left there for a day. HCMC is the only hospital around these parts with a hyperbaric chamber for the purpose, it holds 8 patients at a time.

it's pissy nasty stuff. you don't want any if you can avoid it.

mylasttoyota · November 2003

For what it is worth. I have been having the horrible smell INSIDE the cabin of my V-6 2003 4-runner since day one. I have tried every manufacturer of gasoline and every grade of gasoline within 50 miles and the problem still occurs. In addition, these stations are in the reformulated section of the country. So lets hear some more about how gasoline is the problem
I have never been in a vehicle, other than this one, that you could smell your own exhaust while driving. Can one of you car salesman or service managers on this posting tell me how this happens? Notice I didnt say problem, since Toyota thinks this is NORMAL for a vehicle and not a problem.
Windows up or down it doesnt make a difference.
To bad the only thing that is ever going to resolve this issue is class action.

driftracer · November 2003

at if you approach a lawyer with the only proof being your own nose and statements from people on an internet chat board.

To initiate a class-action suit, there are several stages - without solid evidence, the first couple of stages will not happen. The final stage is getting it certified by a judge, where the suit is allowed to proceed. Won't happen without more that idle gossip.

sacstate1 · November 2003

I bought my Runner from the dealer with the Borla dual side exhaust installed at the factory/port. I have noticed on rare instances the sulfur smell. The smell can be induced. Just stomp the gas pedal from a stop with the rear window down. But, I do not have a lingering smell problem. Not enough of a smell problem to start a vindetta with the dealer or Toyota. So, in theory, the dual mounted side exhaust works. Before you spend $$ with an 'ambulance chaser', I would check out Borla. You can buy the dual Borla for about $605 and it can be installed easily in your garage using a 14mm socket wrench and rubber mallet. Or, any local exhaust shop can install it in their sleep.

highlander7 · November 2003

Has anyone had the Borla Exhaust System installed on their 03 or 04 4Runner? Did this eliminate the sulfur smell?

And has anyone had the exhaust pipe modified to exhaust to the side? Did this eliminate the sulfur smell?

Any other fixes -- different gas brands, catalytic converter replaced, dealers repaired something else?

If a simple fix like modifying to side exhaust or replacing with the expensive Borla system solves this problem, maybe Toyota will use this information for an eventual recall.

highlander7 · November 2003

Thanks sacstate1.

$605.00 to install yourself is not bad. Plus you have the benefit of additional HP and Torque. You stated in a previous post that this added more power?

This may be one solution, probably diverting the pipes to the side will also work.

sacstate1 · November 2003

Well, Borla claims there is an increase in hp and torque of 10%. I can say the system has IMMEDIATE throttle response. I don't recall my test drive with a non-Borla OEM V8, so I can't compare to what I have. But it sure sounds nice and the 'punch' will definately push you back into the seats similar to the Cobra SVT that I used to own.

Price of $605 was found by another member in another 4Runner forum.

mylasttoyota · November 2003

Driftracer, why are you on this message board? Please show me one posting of yours where you have contributed anything to the discussion except the Toyota is wonderful mantra?
Unfortunately you are right with regards to class action. Its not worth the effort.
I guess that is why most people feel like the only form of life lower than a lawyer is a car salesman (or the associated service manager.)

Kirstie_H · November 2003

Let's stay away from talking about each other - if you don't like another member's post, skip it. Let's focus on solutions to the problem!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

ratpatrol · November 2003

I personally have solved the problem by crossing the 4Runner off of my VERY short list of potential next vehicles. I'm also starting to rethink my opinion of Toyota which I always though was a very high quality vehicle and well run company. I find it hard to believe that all of the dealers in this country are either too stupid or arrogant to put enough pressure on Toyota to solve this very real problem.

Just think of all of the bad publicity just by word of mouth a problem like this creates. Not to mention the loss in resales to current owners of these stink mobiles.

I can just hear the conversations all over America..."Gee Fred, why didn't you buy another 4Runner?"...."Well Joe, it looked great, ran great, had lots of power, rode nice, had an awesome stereo and was dependable but it smelled like a rotten egg stuck in an old wet sneaker"....Huh????

I may hold off on buying a new vehicle until the springtime so I'll be watching the posts to see if Toyota solves this problem, until then;Good Luck to all of you.

rogers12 · November 2003

Another solution to this problem (for you prospective Toyota buyers) is to test drive the vehicle and drive it hard for a minute and take a whiff. If you don't smell anything, buy that vehicle. Sounds to me like most of them don't smell, considering there's probably 10,000 '03 and '04 4Runners out there and 10 people on this forum that complain about the smell. Even if there is only 1 out of 100 people that have a smelly vehicle visiting this forum, that is still only 10% of the vehicles with smell. Good odds if you test drive and don't buy it blindly.

alfster1 · November 2003

Here is one interesting thing that I happened across this past weekend. I was drving with assorted cargo in my 03 4runner V8 and I had to drive with the rear hatch partially opened (as some of my cargo was rather long.) With the hatch opened in this way, I still did not smell any sulfur emissions under varying speeds. I would think that I should have smelled sulfur in a similar way as when I test drove with the rear cargo window opened. There is some perplexing problem with the Sulfur situation and the new 4Runners. Perhaps gasoline type is one part of the puzzle, but Toyota needs to find out why this sulfur problem exists for some 4Runners and not others (and in varying circumstances).

alan88 · November 2003

Same here! Only my list was even shorter, with only 4Runner on it. I have to say that in this price range, there is no other SUV comes even close. But Toyota’s attitude toward its own mistake really scared me away from this otherwise a great vehicle.

Now that I’ve turned into a wait and see mode for an SUV, I actually started looking for a minivan to make the wife happy, and Sienna is off the list for the same reason. I’m seriously considering a domestic brand. To my surprise after all these years, it is actually pretty good, especially the AWD version. I want to remind you guys that there are still other carmakers out there selling cars.

For those who’s trying CO detectors, I remember OSHA’s standard on CO level is 50ppm for 8 hours, meaning it’s not safe for an 8 hour shift if CO level is above 50ppm. Also CO detectors won’t go off until it reaches 70ppm for at least 60 minutes (UL2034). I’d suggest a battery operated CO detector that displays CO level and has a peak level recall function.

cmaj · November 2003

I've owned a V-8 Sport Edition since May. Yes, with the rear window down, exhaust fumes can be drawn back into the cabin, but only under "hard" acceleration with the rear window open. It is not uncommon for the aerodynamics of this body style to result in a low pressure region at the rear of the car, especially during fast starts. The combination of high exhaust flow and low pressures at the rear door causes a slight intake of fumes that becomes apparent at about the 40 mph mark during hard acceleration. It vents out almost instantly and does not linger. Everyone of these vehicles will have this effect, not just a few. It can only be a health concern if there is a very frequent or constant flow of direct exhaust into the open rear window under most or normal conditions. Toyota would not be able to sell a single one of these if there was any truth to some of these earlier posts. It is simply not a mfg defect and other than recommending a tail pipe extension, Toyota will probably never be obligated to do anything about it.

rcgator · November 2003

If you had, you'd realize we are not discussing the odor getting into the cabin with the rear window down. I believe everyone knows that the exhaust will enter the cabin under those conditions. What we are discussing is the fact that the exhaust is getting into some cars with all windows up, AC on recirculate, sometimes during hard acceleration and sometimes without. If you don't have this problem, then it is no big deal for you. It is most definitely a big deal for those of us who deal with it on a regular basis because it poses a possible health hazard. It is quite possible that Toyota will eventually be obligated to do something about this. The EPA is already in discussion with them about addressing this issue.

ratpatrol · November 2003

Granted I have not yet purchased a 4Runner, but I do no a really offensive odor when I smell it. The stink coming from the vehicle I test drove was at 70 mph and was unbearable, not just "normal" exhaust smell. It reminded me of the episode of Seinfeld where Jerry's B'mer took on the smell of the parking valet.

sport15 · November 2003

I live in Northern Virginia and I have a 2003 V6 Sport with a 06/03 build date. It was 95 degrees the day I got the 4Runner and I had to drive 230 miles that day with the windows up and the AC on. At first I attributed a strong smell of burnt rubber and sulfur to new car smell and maybe some coatings burning off the new exhaust. The odor continued for the next several weeks and several tanks of gas. I eventually took it back to the dealer where they told me it was the sulfur content of the gas and there was nothing wrong with the 4Runner. I did some checking around on the Internet and found out that AMOCO and BP both sell a low sulfur gas Ultimate in the Washington DC area. I ran the truck to very close to empty and filled up with the AMOCO Ultimate (93 octane). The smell was almost completely gone before the first tank of Ultimate gas was. I think I may have used two or three tanks of Ultimate when I had to again take a long trip away from DC. I filled up in Western PA with an off brand (that was 93 octane) that I am sure was not low sulfur, and by the time I was down to a quarter of a tank, I started to get the smell again. I again ran the tank to almost empty and filled it with BP Ultimate in northern VA and the smell again cleared before that tank of gas was empty. I have been using the low sulfur Ultimate since and have not noticed any odors from my 4Runner. At least not yet. I know its only anecdotal evidence but it does seem to support the high sulfur content of the gas explanation.

rogers12 · November 2003

Ultimate has always been advertised as a low-residue gasoline. They claim to double-distill it to lower non-volatile (tar) residues. May be sulfur-containing residues. I buy it when practical to reduce injector deposits. (Don't know if it helps, but it is similar in price to many 91 octanes around here).

sacstate1 · November 2003

In my part of the world BP is Amoco. And from what I have read, basically all gas is the same, made at the same refineries. It is the individual oil companies that add their special spice to the gas base to create their own brand. So in theory, the odor one gas emits should correlate with the same odor of another brand.

fl4runner · November 2003

I took my 4Runner into the service dept. to get the oil and tire thing at 5K. I also told them about the exhaust in the cabin problem. They checked it out and admitted that they detected the problem (exhaust in cabin, windows rolled up). I nearly fell off my chair. They said they called Toyota and that Toyota is working on it but there is no current fix for it. I still don't trust my service dept. for the pranks they pulled in the past, but at least they are acting a bit better now. Question is, how long do I wait now for an answer?

pat84 · November 2003

Interesting, I have no sulphur smell in my V-8 Sport. I use AMOCO almost exclusively just because Amoco stations are both near my home and where I work. I live in MD near DC.
BP and Amoco have merged in MD. I use 87 mostly.

fl4runner · November 2003

I feel that it is not my responsibility to become Mr. Toyota engineer and fix my $36K vehicle on my own time at my own expense. I totally agree with the cold dinner and toaster analogy. But I am an engineer by trade and not the type that can sit back and wait. I got an elbow extension from Autozone. I want to divert the exhaust to the side to see if it helps. It will be a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] because I could not find an exact fit, just close enough. I will use high temp aluminum tape to hold it on, along with it's inherit press fit. It almost fits but not good enough to be left alone without tape. It will divert exhaust to the side of my 4Runner instead on behind.

Why do we have roll down windows if we can't use them? It was a big selling point for me until I was driving with it and keeled over based on the smell. It's like putting windows on submarines. Why bother? I guess you can extend the occasional lumber or x-mas tree out the back window (as long as you don't pass out due to CO poisoning!) Really, why have the roll down rear window? I don't spend much time in the vehicle parked, and if I do I open the hatch all the way (makes a nice place to get out of the rain). Roll down window=stupid now that I know it totally sucks in the exhaust. Too bad, would have been nice, like a convertable.

driftracer · November 2003

in any vehicle with a roll-down back window or opening rear hatch, with this orifice open.

It sucks fumes in - isn't that obvious? Tie the tree to the top, or get a truck -

fl4runner · November 2003

For those of you who have the stink bomb problem I sympathize completely. For those who don't and think the problem doesn't exist just because you don't smell anything, shame on you. What if this was a forum of people who all lived in the same town. We were talking about the local park, street lights, and then someone mentions that their drinking water tastes funny. Others start to complain, but you don't. You can't taste a thing. Then you hear reports on TV about how there was a toxic waste site the next town over, and some of the citizens in your town get their water tested and realize that it's contaminated with PCB's and lead. But you still don't taste anything wrong with your tap water. Would you still drink it? Would you still serve it to your wife and kids? Think about this the next time you drink a glass of water, or go for a ride in your 4Runner or Sequoia.

fl4runner · November 2003

Ok, so what is your point? My point is that, if you can't drive with the back window open, then why have a back window that rolls down? What is the purpose of this feature if I can't use it on my vehicle?

Why should it be obvious that the back window would suck in fumes when down? Convertibles don't suffer this problem with the top down.

If I shouldn't drive with an orifice open, does this mean I can't drive with my sunroof open? Or my drivers window open? Or any windows open? They are orifices, right?

Please help me out and post a list of all the features on my vehicle I shouldn't use because of inherent design flaws. BTW I thought my 4Runner is a "truck".

driftracer · November 2003

doesn't have an opening directly over the exhaust pipe - it's well forward of that area - your truck's opening and rear hatch/tailgate in right at the exhaust termination point, like it is on just about every SUV and wagon out there.

The rear window in your truck is made to be rolled down for loading, or while you're at the park and want to drop all of your windows - whatever you need.

I didn't say "an" orifice as in any opening - please read my post before you go on the attack - I said your rear hatch or rear window.

driftracer · November 2003

on every vehicle I've seen of similar design, be it an SUV, wagon, van, etc - the owner's manual indicates that you should never drive with your rear window or hatch/tailgate open. Please don't be upset that you're just know learning this - I've seen that in print for well over 20 years.

rcgator · November 2003

If I take Toyota's advice, and change the brand or grade of gasoline that I use, will this elminiate the problem? NO, it won't, because the problem here isn't just the offensive odor, it's the fact that the exhaust is getting back into my cabin. With less "smelly" gas, the only thing that changes is that the exhaust that is getting into my cabin is less offensive, BUT, it is still there. Is that an acceptable situation? I don't think so; you're still getting toxic (albeit odorless) fumes in your car!!

Just thought I'd remind those of you that think you've fixed your problem by changing your gasoline source.

sacstate1 · November 2003

I don't drink tap water.

mylasttoyota · November 2003

I cannot believe a service manager said Toyota is working on the problem. I thought Toyota said it was gas related? I am so confused
In any event, I went and drove a Honda Pilot (getting ready for the trade-in.) The Honda dealer wants to keep my Toyota on his lot for people to test drive that are making the Honda/Toyota decision. One drive in the Toyota stink bomb and any consumer will be convinced. I even offered to give the Honda guy my maintenance receipts where Toyota says this normal and is a gas realted problem. He is so excited but I am not that excited about loosing money trading a 6-month-old car in.
As with the other driver in MD, I did notice that 87 octane gas does make the smell worse. 89 octane smells better, anything octane above that I cant tell whether the smell is from my seats, which permanently stink, or the exhaust.
I still cant believe that Toyota says it is normal to smell your own exhaust driving down the road with all the windows up.
Changing brands of gasoline has done nothing.

driftracer · November 2003

"I did notice that 87 octane gas does make the smell worse. 89 octane smells better"

So it IS a fuel issue?

alfster1 · November 2003

I don't personally think that that Sulfur issue is directly tied to fuel type. I have consistently used 87-89 octane with no sulfur smell. I have used "off brand" and name band gasolines and haven't noticed any difference. Toyota needs to find a new scapegoat.

FL4Runner, did your exhaust fix remove the instance of sulfur smell entering the passenger cabin (w/ or w/o the rear window closed.)?

The rear cargo window serves almost no purpose for me, especially since you can't raise it with the remote. You must use either the key or the front dash button to raise the window again. This is hardly a convenience. It is almost easier just to open the entire hatch for loading/unloading.

user777 · November 2003

regardless of the mechanism for the smell getting into the cabin, there's the issue of the *true* root cause to contend with.

even if a tailpipe extension mitigates the problem, the root-cause will remain.

it's interesting to me, that not all owners report the problem. that should be interesting to you too.

i am thinking that these cars are set up wrong, possibly something is not working the way it is designed to work - ie: a fuel delivery, combustion, emissions sensing / control, cat convertor issue could be at the root cause.

if someone does manage to mitigate the problem by more or lesser degree by say: blocking vents, extending the tailpipe, rolling up all the windows, keeping it easy on the gas, driving with higher octane, etc...

the root cause remains.

yes/no?

also - if these owners are smelling sulfur, it isn't a great leap logically to assume those that aren't reporting the problem, might very well be getting gases into the cabin to which they are unaware.

regards.

driftracer · November 2003

who insisted that I inventory all the options on his vehicle and tell him what he can or cannot use. Pretty ridiculous and childish.

I pointed out that you shouldn't ever operate a vehicle with a rear window or hatch open - any vehicle - been that way a LONG time.

I'm on the fence on this issue and will continue to be, for what that's worth.

All I've seen and heard is unsupported complaints - there's been no data that there are harmful levels of anything. Just because you can smell it, it means nothing.

I have a very senstitive nose, and on a good day, if the wind is right, I can smell the farm that's over 3 miles away. On some days, it's pretty strong.

I seriously doubt that manure gases and bovine flatulence have caused me any ill effects, simply because there's enough in the air to smell.

The courts don't care about perceptions, they care about what can be proven through evidence. I haven't seen any here yet. Talking about suing a manufacturer and buying billboard space is pretty silly and wasteful unless you have something to give a judge other than "I can smell it, can't you?".

fl4runner · November 2003

driftracer, I think you are suffering from cow flatulence inhalation.

just kidding! I had a friend who owned a honda civic del sol and the whole back window rolled down. It was a nice little car and I never smelled exhaust. There is no reason, safety or otherwise to prevent you from driving with any orifice open in your vehicle. I do understand what you are saying about the fact that the rear orifice on the 4Runner is in proximity to the exhaust pipe. Your point is well taken here. I must reiterate what alfster1 said about the back roll down window being useless. You can't even access the cargo area with the shade in place when you roll down the rear window!! I think it's a dumb design. Just like the 2 tier cargo area. I have very few items that are short enough to fit in the bottom of the 2-tier area. I permanently leave the shelf down and pretend I don't have 2-tier at all. I could use the extra couple inches it takes up, but don't want to mess with it. It does not look like it's easily removable.

fl4runner · November 2003

I will try to install my tail pipe elbow extension this weekend and let you all know if it helps. Smell or no smell I am sure I am getting my own exhaust in the cabin. If you don't smell exhaust, does that guarantee no problem exists? If you run with the air intake on fresh, you suck in the other guy's exhaust, not my favorite option. Plus it's very humid in FL so we don't like using fresh air intake in the car. All vehicles have little gaps allowing air to get in and out. They are everywhere. Sometimes I even smell the exhaust of the car in front of me with recirculate on. This is a fact of life. But I do think that I don't need to be breathing in my own exhaust. I need to find the little gaps MY exhaust is getting in and plug them. But why should we be doing Toyota's job? Many Sequoias suffer the same fate. It is common to both trucks.

I thought about forcing air into my vehicle then detecting air leaks outside the vehicle to try and locate how exhaust may be getting in. I can try running the truck with taking in fresh air and setting the AC to blast at it's highest setting, but I doubt this will create a high enough pressure for me to detect something outside the vehicle. Any suggestions?

I think exhaust leaks in around the back because if I run with the AC on fresh, the cabin smells clean. So I doubt exhaust is coming in from the front (near the air handling piping) or else I would smell it coming out of my air vents. I strongly suspect it is seeping in from the back hatch (wherever the exhaust circulates around after exiting the tail pipe). What are your opinions?

toyboxx · November 2003

I removed my double decker system last night in about 5 minutes. Now all I need is one new piece of trim to make it normal again. I got the price for that piece of trim from partznet today and it is $138.00. Anybody want to trade my double sytem for that piece of trim?

Also The rear window is used when loading and unloading. My '87, '97 and '03 4runner OWNERS MANUAL all specically say NOT to drive with it open as exhaust fumes will enter the compartment. Even though you aren't supposed to use it while driving I still think it is an advantageous design. I have found it VERY useful on several occasion as I have been driving with this feature for a very long time.

rcgator · November 2003

User777, I couldn't agree with you more. Just because you're not smelling the fumes in your car, it doesn't mean they are not there. That's why just changing the grade or brand of gasoline is NOT the solution. If you have low-sulfur gasoline, then you aren't getting a sulfur odor, but you could very well be getting carbon monoxide in the cabin and not know it.

fl4runner, I know for sure that the exhaust is coming in from the rear of my car (a 2003 Sequoia) because my kids always smell it first, then it takes a few seconds for me to start smelling it in the front of the vehicle. I know these are two different trucks and two different designs, but I suspect that the fumes are getting in in a similar fashion in both vehicles.

I also don't use the fresh intake on the AC because it just stinks too much to be sucking in the exhaust from the cars in front and around me, and, you're right, it's just way too humid in Florida.

So far, sealing that rear vent and changing the O2 sensor have not fixed the problem. My husband promises me he'll have the tailpipe extension done this weekend. I'll let you all know if that works. If it doesn't, it's back to Kendall Toyota and time to start looking into Lemon Law proceedings.

Sulfur Smell from Toyota 4Runner

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