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Comments
I don't think that the exhaust smell indicates a hazard, just an (in some cases major) annoyance. Sulfur is detectable at very low concentrations, but it won't hurt you at those levels.
Lots more on this issue earlier in this thread, including suggestions for simple and cheap fixes. If your vehicle has the smell problem I wouldn't recommend waiting until Toyota changes things. Just check out these fixes or at least use fresh instead of recirculated air most of the time, and turn the fan on when you're stopped.
---
corancher states:
>>>Carbon monoxide is a result of incomplete combustion, and today's vehicles (if they're working correctly) are so well regulated in their combustion (if they're working correctly)<<<
for me, that's been part of my interest all along.
how would you know if the fuel delivery / combustion, emissions control systems weren't working correctly?
Anyway, my post here is simply to say that I am expecting a return call from Toyota, I will keep you advised to the results, and if anyone has found a fix that works, I would love to hear it.
rogers12, I agree with you. I should have taken more care with my post. One reasonable fix, a slight diversion of the exhaust to the side, should be fine, especially for those of us who don't get the smell on a regular basis. I normally don't use the recirculate position, so I'm not in a big hurry, but I plan to make the mod soon. You and user777 ask how an owner would know if the engine was running wrong, and putting out significant CO. You might get a check engine (MIL) light and/or poor mileage, but maybe not. It is indeed safer to just make sure that no significant exhaust gets into the cabin, and for this the smell is a useful marker.
I'll have to ask a friend (who knows this stuff) about the "lazy" O2 sensor, but I think that means the signal it's putting out is too weak or its oscillations are too slow. They are nonlinear devices, and I think they have a voltage or current output change that's very sudden around a specific level of oxygen in the exhaust. A bad sensor could make the engine run too rich, burning off the sulfur more frequently and continuously. All just speculation, unfortunately.
It continues to puzzle me why Toyota put that exhaust tip where they did, and I don't think anybody has proposed any compelling reasons. It may not be a very big problem in Toyota's eyes since it doesn't affect a very high percentage of the thousands of 4Runners (and it affects many other models as well), but you think they would at least reroute the darned exhaust.
"consumer report has rated the reliabilty of the 2oo3 v6 4runner as the worst in its class.the reason that was given to me by them , is that according to consumer feedback there were problems with fuel systems,paint,trim,rust and body intregrity.has anyone who owns a v6 experienced any of these concerns"
I had to sell mine. Good luck and go back and read the entire forum you'll get some good info.
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv2.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt- - - - - - - _id=357083&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=97851&ASSORTMENT%3C%3Eas- - - - - - - t_id=333137&bmUID=1069886399375
Here is the article summary:
"The 4Runner is now among the top-ranked SUVs in its price class and is fit for serious off roading. It's a big improvement over its predecessor, riding better than some car-based SUVs. Our tested V6 model delivered lively and effortless acceleration. Fuel economy was an unimpressive 16 mpg. Handling isn't as nimble, but is sound and secure with standard stability control. The interior feels substantial and well made. The seats are comfortable and afford a good view out. The power rear window and interior mirrors for reversing are nice touches. A third seat is a new option. The V6's reliability has been poor; the V8's excellent.
This review represents our latest advice on the current model. It's based on our expert perspective, plus the latest reliability and test data for this year's model or an essentially similar predecessor."
In the reliability ratings on the 2003 4Runner, only body integrity gets less than top marks. All other items, including engine, get the highest possible rating.
I think, all in all, that they have very little historical data to go on for the V6. You can bet that this engine, being from Toyota, will have great long-term reliability. Better than the V8? The jury is still out on that one.
I had the Sport Edition V8.
i would like to share my experience of sulfur smell by changing the type of Gas i use. for first 2k miles i always used 91 octace Chevron and had 2 time sulfur smell. the MPG was b/w 20 to 21.2 long distance and 15-16 in city. (V6 2WD). the mpg decreases as ur avg speed goes higher than 60. sweet spot is b/w 52-57.
recently i put 87 octacne Exxon and had worst experience ever. on a 250 mile one way trip, i smelled suflur inside cabin while cruising normally at 70-75 with the recirculation on. is'nt recirculation means, outside air cannot get in???. i changed it to fresh air and smell was gone. mpg with this 87 oct was around 22 (better). on my way back, i added 91 octane shell to 1/4 remaining tank and smelled no sulfur on my way back, mpg increased to 22.4, best i have ever got. no smell at all with or without recirc. i've been using 89 oct and 91 oct shell for the past 1500 miles and never smelled any thing except for when i switched to 87 oct Exxon.
my verdict, use better octane gas, go for SHELL or experiment other big brands and share your results.
asif
There is absolutely NO way to make a vehicle air tight. If you had a smelly diesel vehicle in front of you, you could turn your a/c to recirculate and stop the fumes from coming in through the vents in the front of the vehicle, but you'd still get SOME fumes from various other vents.
There's not a vehicle on the market that's air tight, since it would have to be sealed like Tupperware when you get in it - until Tupperware signs on to help car manufacturers, we'll have to live with some outside air getting in. If there's exhaust fumes mixed in the with the outside air, you'll smell that, too.
I can't get over all this crazy debate and dicussion over something as easy to understand as this - every vehicle we've all owned was not air tight. RECIRC mode takes air from the rear of the vehicle, so if you don't like smelling some exhaust, keep it on FRESH AIR mode. Then again, you may smell the sulphur smell from the vehicle in front of you - get used to it - every vehicle manufacturer is dealing with their catalytic converter's reaction to fuels, especially oxygenated fuels.
End of rant - thanks.
If that didn't fix it, then I'd pursue a more complex course for corrections.
Looking down that long hard road of convincing a major corporation of a design defect, and then getting it corrected, the $50 fix seems so much simpler.
The tailpipe fix is straightforward and cheap. Some have described $10 extensions available at local auto parts stores, attached with a setscrew. I've described how you could try it temporarily with plastic pipe for about the same cost. If I had the smell problem I'd "fix" it in a minute.
For some reason there has been little or no commonality between those of us who would try the fix and those who actually have the problem. Therefore it's been hard to make headway on this issue in that area. tacoviva and I went at this hammer-and-tong (well, actually, we've been fairly civil) in this discussion a while back. You can search for our respective perspectives if you're interested. Apparently tacoviva did not try the fix, and has sold the vehicle.
I think it is deplorable that Toyota has not come to the table on this an admit there is a problem, and even more so to not offer an immediate fix. The sulfur problem was apparent way back when the 2003 models were launched, more than a year ago. And now we see it in the 2004 models. That tells me that Toyota really doesn't care, not at all.
Instead, the wonderful people at Toyota have decided it is "not their problem" and have pretty much avoided the issue and given owners the runaround. Are they not smart enough to realize the amount of customers and goodwill they have lost? Do they not see the bad aura hanging around the new 4Runners?
As far as the tailpipe extension, if it indeed helps, that's just a "patch" and doesn't really solve the issue. And why should owners of brand new vehicles have to deal with this? Why are they having to do their own "repairs"?
I look at some of the advice here and I am amazed. "keep your back window rolled up" or "set your A/C on this setting or that setting" is not something new owners should have to contend with. And yes, "Other vehicles have the problem" does not make it any better. I can't think of any other manufacturer that has this problem to the extent that the 4Runner does.
Wake up Toyota, I hope you are reading these forums.
Just rantin' will update you on my attempt with the exhaust extension as soon as I get a chance to do it.
several posts back, someone mentioned the 04 manual references pulling in dust on dusty roads if the system is on recirc.
if true, that wouldn't be crazy or debatable would it?
now documenting that condition, and not documenting pulling in exhaust gases if the system is on recirc should be noteworthy.
would you seriously believe every automobile is purposefully designed to do this (allow dust and exhaust gas into the cabin), or, purposefully designed so that is avoided?
derrickjones, read my post earlier as i have definatly observed change in smell with Gas change. The V6 in 4runner is newest engine in toyota fleet. not sure about V8.
May be in japan where they tested their vehicle had different sulfur content in Gas and they designed their vehicle according to that. There must be some standard of having a particular contents in gas but as we know it still varies b/w different brands, shell, bp, exxon. Many brands add additives to their fuel for different purposes, increased mileage, valve cleaning, reduce knocking. It might be cleaining the valve better but different chemical composition might be giving out by products of sulfur after ignition, burning, going thru catalyic converter. I guess a chemical expert can shed some light on it. Have you seen the Shell comercial on TV, they claim to have better mileage and i did'nt believe till i observed it myself. Also take into consideration the fact that continous use of Techron added Chevron might errode the valves, chamber and top of piston. Remember, If you buy a concentrate they ask you to use it with atleast 10 litre Gas. BP is so hyped up with environmental cleaning, CITGO infact makes spill cleaning and other petroleum products. so i guess their Gas must have some reflection of their standards. neway i dont want you guys to spend next few months trying different Gases, just take it easy and try using better gas.
On the other hand, with toyota we all expect top notch quality. It is also hard to believe for me that their design engineers have not taken into consideration the driving conditions in US.
I was also thinking if this sulfur problem is in a particular region, North, South, etc. Does the outside temperature plays any role?. I know the gas mileage is better in summer than winter. I am in extreme south(Louisiana) where we have warm weather till nov.
asif
Beginning in 1/1, per an EPA mandate, gasoline w/lower sulfur content will be coming to pumps resulting in catalytic converters lasting longer and reducing tailpipe emissions.
Per the article, sulfur content in gasoline now averages 340 ppm nationally. Refiners must reduce that to 120 ppm in 2004, 90 in 2005 and 30 in 2006. The law allows up to 300 ppm in 2004 so that the gas that comes out of any given pump may not be of low sulfur variety.
The article further noted that low sulfur gas is currently available from some brands, such as BP PLC's premium grade Amoco Ultimate, which has 30 ppm, available in Chicago and 40 other major cities.
You draw your own conclusions.
While I respect your opinion, if a $10 fix were available, then Toyota would've done it. And yes we've written about this problem to extent.
To all the folks out there with this problem, if there was an easy fix, Toyota would've come up with it.
As it stands, the only way to fix it is to sell it, or install a $1000 Borla.
"Easy fix" or not, there is no excuse why Toyota has not come up with some sort of a solution. No excuse whatsoever. They are raking in record profits these days. Worse, not only have they not even attempted any type of fix, they continue to deny that the sulfur is even a "problem".
And the "$10" exhaust tip is not a "fix", but merely a slight workaround that **might** prevent some of the sulfur from entering the cabin.
Toyota should have jumped on this from day one. They are only digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole which is starting to put yet another dent in their "reputation" and that of the 4Runner.
Next stop Midas Muffler shop. They had no off the shelf extension, and furthermore, they are not allowed to extend the end of the exhaust past the rear bumper (something about burnt eggs smell better than burnt flesh). That only leaves a couple of options:
1) weld a custom downward angle on the end OR
2) weld a custom outward angle on the end
There is not really enough room for the outward angle, as the muffler is to close to the end of the extension, so that only leaves one option and that is putting a downward extension on the end.
They didn't have time today to give me an estimate, but he wasn't too encouraging about how it would look. Anyway, no $10 "FIX". I am tempted to just get rid of it, as I like the new Touareg (but hate the name) and let the courts decide if my loss was in Toyota's responsibility. I bet they will
I am happy to hear suggestions.
Taco, I feel your pain and look forward to your paperwork.
I am considering a 4Runner V8 to replace my Nissan Pathfinder. I have a chrome 'exhaust finisher' on the end of the tailpipe, that is about 3" OD, and has some set screws to position it on the tailpipe. If you have an Infiniti dealer in your vicnity, it is off a QX4, after 2001, with the 3.5 litre engine. Both the Nissan and the Toyota have a straight exhaust out the rear, so it can extend the pipe, perhaps into the slipstream. It sells for about $45 Canadian, and might do the trick. I don't have the part number handy, but it is called an 'exhaust finisher'. Hope it may help!
About that exhaust smell getting in cabin, it is also eliminated by changing it to fresh air with-in minutes.
Do we live in air tight world where no smell can enter our nose. Hav'nt u guys ever breathed in open air ever?.
Have you driven this vehicle for 5-10 k miles?. come on. take it easy...you should have done your study before buying a new vehicle, instead of selling it right away.
Answers:
>Best truck she ever owned, loved the vehicle.
>It is a 2003 V8 SR5 purchased in May 03.
>And she never has smelled an odor other then the first week when new. She drives with the back window down all the time and never has had a problem.
>She uses Mobil regular.
Her previous vehicle was the 1999 4Runner SR5. Until buying her 03, this 99 was her favorite, she really did not want to let it go.
After all my questions she realized who I was, she teaches with my wife, I was embarrassed that I did not recognize her, I was only doing my informal survey. Her husband has a new Tundra with the 4.7 L., I need to ask him the same questions.
I have now discussed this with four owners of new 4Runners and have driven five different 4Runners. Only one of the four people had some odor when first accelerating hard, then no problems after that. I noticed it on one of the five trucks I test drove, again after hard acceleration with the back window down, Maybe it is a combination of the gas used and how it is driven??
Or maybe 1 in 200 owners have a problem with the smell. ( just a guess!)
Yes I do have some concerns, I pick up my V8 Ltd this week. I will use premium (low sulpur gasoline) when possible and if I have the odor will have the Borla exhaust installed. I am convinced that this is the best mid size SUV and will not consider anything else. If I thought otherwise I would keep my 02 SR5 a few more years.
Interesting note: I was behind a Trailblazer last week and guess what.... it was emitting a sulpur smell much worse than the one 4Runner I had tested. Maybe the sulpur smell is the least of this Trailblazer owners concerns?
I'm surprised that the Midas folks didn't suggest cutting about 5" off the pipe and welding on an elbow (or making a 45-90 deg. kink in the existing tube) to dump the exhaust out the side. That's also a better solution (in terms of ground clearance) than a downward extension. As far as I can tell, this is basically what the Borla systems do. No chance of burning anybody, better ground clearance, and it places the exhaust tip more into moving air and farther from the cabin vent outlets.
As far as the Touareg goes, I'd research that vehicle very carefully. The info I've seen so far places its reliability/durability right there with the rest of the VW line, and that is not very encouraging.
tacoviva, I only partly agree with your conclusions: "...if there was an easy fix, Toyota would've come up with it. As it stands, the only way to fix it is to sell it, or install a $1000 Borla." I think a good diversion to the side would qualify as an easy fix to one part of the problem, and would be the equivalent (for this purpose) of the Borla. It doesn't fix the fundamental problem of frequent smell production, though, and I agree with you there.
If this problem was more prevalent with the V6 instead of the V8 I'd suspect a cause from some of the V6's more recent technologies such as variable valve timing or fuel/air sensors instead of oxygen sensors (I won't bore the group with the explanation; ask if you're interested). But that isn't the case, and nothing I've seen explains why Toyota hasn't diverted the exhaust.
I'd test the diversion myself with plastic pipe. The exhaust tip is just over 2.55" OD and just under 2.5" ID. You could even use a standard sweep elbow from central vacuum tubing (about 2.25" OD at the shoulder), taped on the outside to make it bigger. You can divert the exhaust more than 8" to the side without any danger of contacting or burning anybody, and I think that would get it completely away from the cabin vents.
You can buy the Borla for $600.
I have tried low sulfur, reformulated gas, every brand, every grade and they all stink.
A $600 or $1000 new exhaust for a new car is complete crap. Once you consider time, effort, and aggravation what is the total?? No matter the cost, it is to much for a new vehicle.
For all of you posting, I am just waiting for class action.
You may recall my posting "no problem" with a 2003 rental 4-Runner, but I would never imply that the problem doesn't exist! I believe you 100%.
What this informal survey says, at the very minimum, is that not every 4-runner will do this. That's about the only positive conclusion one can make.
We don't know how many do and how many don't.
If this is true to some extent then we will feel exhaust/sulfur smell more pronounced while cruising at set speed on a straight road.
we dont see 4Runner's shape or even similar shape in other vehicles. Sequioa, LandCruise, Siena are fairly wide from back. Tourage has complete round shape. GM, Ford and other American SUV are fairly flat from back and from sides. May be all other vehicles have this sulfur pb to some extent but their chance of having it in cabin is lot less than 4Runner due to its shape.
I am very sure, diverting the exhaust to side should eliminate the pb at all.
Why toyota missed this, i cant understand.
Not a sure theory, worth thinking. If side exhuast work for you guys, i'll definatly go for it.
asif
Isn't that true for SUVs (and some minivans) in general? I assume you are referring to 4Runners without the rear wing because I know with the wing, my rear cargo window always stays clean.
Interesting theory though. The 4Runner shape is unique and may have unique air flow characteristics, but even so, why do some 4Runners have the sulfur problem while others don't? It's a true mystery.
The issue of sulfur smell is a combination of certain wind conditions / Gas type and Road condition. curved roads, side ways wind, strong / weak wind might alter the exhaust getting in through vents.
Do you notice sulfur/exhaust smell oftenly, even though you have rear wing. Diverting some air from top to flow sharply from rear window should help in reducing the exhaust getting in to some extent, but since top of vehicle is mostly at same level, air flowing from sides should be more responsible for poor exhaust's exhuast.
just my thoughts
asif
Make
TOYOTA
Vehicle
4RUNNER
Model
4.0L V6/4.7L V8 2+4WD AT/MT 4DR
legend
Year
2003
Part Number
140036
Your Price
$869.99
That's not even installed. You may have some inside track to a cheaper version, but most of us will pay $869.99+ installation. I thought, and still think, that $1000 was conservative.
Please stop posting bad information.
link...
http://borla.com/
Derrick,
I sent you all the soft info I have. If you need more, I can use snail mail. I really hope this helps.
At 9,172 miles, no unusual obnoxious odor or smell, with or without the rear window down.
Taco, you still here? I thought you were spending time with your family? Or writing rave reviews about your new Honda?
$675 + $30 shipping
Ok, using your inflated purchase price of $1,000, how much did you lose by dumping yours so fast? Don't say you almost broke even by trading it in, you lost at least $5,000. So, had you spent another 20% of what you lost by trading in early you might have remedied your problem.