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DODGE RAM DIESEL vs V10 FOR TOWING

2

Comments

  • gwmooregwmoore Posts: 230
    We can stay off the subject for another minute. Those rifles, althouth alarming at first, make those areas safe. At least the policia there are less corrupt than the federales in Mexico. I pretty much stayed in the airports on the mainland (except for the side trip to a market in the suburb I was telling you about). The islands are much safer and much less militant.

    Anyway, back from travel and liesure. How about those gas and diesel pickups?
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    All Rams are on order-hold if they have not yet been given a build date. DC is switching them to 2001 models effective January, and they cannot be built until Jan 2, 2000 by federal law (it's illegal to build a 2001 in 1999 - you cannot advance more than one numeric year). Those orders that are already accepted by DC will be built in December.

    kcram
    Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
  • RichinKsRichinKs Posts: 416
    kcram, If I understand you correctly, my order (placed 9/14 ) which still does not have a build date as of two days ago, will not be built before Jan 1? I get a different excuse each week. Wednesday it was a hold on the paint. For those of you contimplating ordering a Dodge out there, make sure your dealer has an allocation. I thought that problem was only with Chevy's, but I was wrong. But as I've said before, the 800 number told me it was an dealer allocation problem. If they had been upfront with me I would not be so upset, but why should I buy again from a dealer who fibs (at the least). ...... Rich
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Rich,

    It sounds like you have the proverbial "truck from hell" in terms of specific equipment combination. DC knew they were going to end 2000 VERY early, and probably didn't order enough supplies for the short 2000 run. The dealer allocation "excuse" may also be valid for the same reason - short model year = less trucks for small dealers.

    By any chance, did you order from a 5-Star dealer?

    kcram
    Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
  • RichinKsRichinKs Posts: 416
    Yes, it is a five star dealer, but all three of the largest dealers in this area are 5 star. But this is the smallest of the three. The largest one never seems to have the parts so any problem is at least two trips. They have had this reputation for over 10 years and I experienced it personally with my 85 Ramcharger. Of the other two I went with this dealer because they were 2500 dollars better with my trade on this same vehicle and the other one the salesman kept telling me why I shouldn't order this or that. All pointed towards a 1999 he had on the lot that fit his recommendations. I have also worked with a Chevy Salesman who sold me my current 97 chevy who has been upfront about Chevies ordering problems. Everyone knows about Chevy allocation problems but dumb me I assumed Dodge gave first order first build. There have been two others on this list who ordered after me who already have their trucks and between them they had all the same features I ordered. I believe the 800 number when they say the dealer did not have allocations. Its the only thing that makes sense. But anyhow it still should be a good truck. Wendnesday the salesman told my wife the truck will not be here for our early January trip. If he had been upfront we could have made the reservations for later. I called early last week and there are no later reservations left through March. But we will make what we can Monday and get on the waiting list for earlier. The truck is 2500 quadcab, V10, auto, 4x4, 4.10, SLT+, camper and trailer options, sliding window, Forest Green Pearl coat. I wonder if there is risk this color will be dropped for 2001? Or other options changed? The only other thing I know about is the diesel upgrade but that won't effect me. .... Rich
  • I ordered a 2000 Quad cab sport 2500 with the 6 speed transmission and the cummins on 9-11-99. My 5 star dealer gave me the build date 2 weeks ago. It is supposed to be built on 12-9-99. I have heard all kinds of info on the internet that there was a 6 month wait on the 6 spd. and diesel. But it appears that mine is not one of those long waits. Hopefully it will be here when they say. I asked my dealer about the 2001's and the said they didn't know anything about it.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    DC is not releasing any information about January except for the upgraded Cummins. Whether any colors are being dropped or other options added is being kept a secret until January. Rich, while I don't see any specific restrictions for any one package or option you have, it seems that the combination of options plus the possible allocation issue may be what is holding your truck back.

    Six speed diesels have been cancelled for 2000 - obviously, since the 6 speeds will all get the new upgraded Cummins in January. Osborne, you will be getting a very rare truck - a 2000 Cummins six-speed - hold on to it as long as you can :)

    Not to upset anybody, but when I ordered my Ram narkly 4 years ago, I sat down and signed the papers on Saturday, Feb 17, 1996. Monday was Presidents Day, the factory took the order that Tuesday, and the truck was produced just 8 weeks later. The awful part was the 3-1/2 week train ride from Lago Alberto, Mexico to Ramsey, New Jersey. It was (and is) a 5-star dealer, and thios was a truck that I know they wouldn't have trouble selling - while I was waiting for mine, a similar one came in as part of their regular stock order, and they were advertising it in their Sunday newspaper ad - it was gone in days.

    kcram
    Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
  • gwmooregwmoore Posts: 230
    Do you have any idea of the reality about rumors of Dodge sharing the Allison Automatic transmission for the Cummins?
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    gwmoore,

    It was actually in the works as recently as this past summer, but the deal fell apart just before the 2000s began production. In its place, Cummins has reprogrammed their engine computer to "momentarily detune" during shifts, so beginning in January with the 2001 models, the Ram with Cummins and automatci will be rated at 235hp and 460 lb-ft, up from 215/420, and matching the rating for the 5 speed manual. The 6 speed manual will get the new 245/505 rating.

    When the heavy duty Ram is redesigned in 2002, they are rumored to get a version of a new automatic, codenamed Brute, which had initially been in development for the Viper. It's a 5 speed automatic with Chrysler's AutoStick feature, and if it can handle Viper output, then the V10 and Cummins in the Ram should be no problem.

    kcram
    Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
  • gwmooregwmoore Posts: 230
    First, are you sure the 2500 can haul more than the 2500? I've never heard that and don't believe it (but I'm not going to do the research right now). Secondly, same goes for the V-10 over the Cummins (never heard it and don't believe it). I hope somebody else can help out with the figures.

    The way I see it, the Cummins is the ONLY way to go with your driving and ownership profile. I've seen plenty of Cummins with HUGE 5th wheels out there. The Cummins engine shouldn't be the limiting factor. The auto tranny might possibly be a limiting factor. Seems like a 3500 Cummins Dually would handle any 5th wheel, if you even need that much truck.
  • Yes, a 2500 can tow more than a 3500. The explaination is this: given the same engine, transmision, and rear end ratio, they both have the same gross combined weight rating (gcwr). This is the maximum combined weight of the truck and trailer that the drive train is supposed to handle. A 2500, with 2 fewer wheels and tires, and no flared fenders for dually wheels, is lighter. Therefore, with less of the gcwr being used up by the truck, the 2500 can tow more than the 3500. Granted, the 3500 can CARRY more weight on its rear axle than a 2500, but, as long as a trailer isn't front heavy enough to overload a 2500's rear axle, it can tow more.
  • according to the figures in the Dec '99 Trailer Life. Of course when the weight of the trailer gets up near the limits of the truck, the dually starts to make sense. The extra rubber on the road will give you better stability and allow some extra load bearing cushion.
  • Eugene,
    The 2500 Rams have been downgraded since last year, my Y2K Ram is only rated at 16,000 GCWR, not 20,000 like last year. I have a Cummins, 5spd, 3.54's, QC, SB, 4x4, Dana 80 (R), and a Dana 60 (F). I have been in contaact with Mopar to find out why Y2K 2500's are different from 1999. Everything you write makes terrific sense and that is why I bought my truck because it had a 20,000 GCWR last year. Not that the new rating would keep me from hooking a rather large load behind my truck, but I would sure like to know why, I was floored when I got my truck home and read the new stats...........Bill
  • RichinKsRichinKs Posts: 416
    I'm looking at a 2000 catalog. It list the cummins 3/4 quad 4x2 as 20,000 GCWR ( 13,800 max trailer) with a note the camper group is required to reach this rating. This chart makes no difference whether 5, 6speed or auto. I know I ordered my truck with both the camper and towing package. Mine is tobe a 3/4 quad 4x4 4.10 auto v10 with the above packages it is rated 19,000GCWR with max trailer 12,700. It will be interesting when it arrives. .... By the way, all the manufacturers are trying to get together on how to rate the vehicles. Chevy raised theirs by 1000 from 99 to 2000 by using a different rating system. My red book is dated 8/99
  • Rich,
    That is exactly what I thought when purchasing my Y2K Ram, it also has both camper and towing packages. The last years catalog rates my Ram 4x4
    at 13,700 Tow and 20,000 GCWR, the only way it would change the ratings is if the truck was destined for California, and the last time I checked I was (5) states away from California. I have not got a reply back from Chrysler yet, hopefully soon.........Bill
  • RichinKsRichinKs Posts: 416
    The fact you have the camper package and yet a lower tow rating concerns me. Although my current 5th wheel only has a gross of 9000lbs, we are contimplating upgrading to a heavier unit later this year. With a current rating of 12,700 for the 2000 4x4 I felt I had excess. Where do you see the new lower rating? Of course mine now will most likely be a 2001 if it ever arrives. That may also bring new numbers. Ordered 9/14. .... Rich
  • gwmooregwmoore Posts: 230
    Doesn't Dodge make a 1-ton (3500) without the Dually? That's what I meant when I though the 1-ton would haul/tow as much or more than the 3/4-ton.

    Going back to sjh3, is there anything to what he was saying about the V-10 towing more than the Cummins? That was the first time I have ever heard anything about that. I know what I would rather have for heavy use. Seems to me that the Cummins has plenty to work with just about any 5th wheel. Besides, can't you do aftermarket upgrades to help with heavy hauling/towing (i.e. airbags for suspension, etc).
  • Rich,
    My Owners Manual and my window sticker both stste the same thing, and for some reason it changes because of the 3.54's and the Quad Cab. All other 4x4's (regular cabs and 3500) it makes no difference what Gear Ratio is installed, according to the manual. Regardless of the manual if I need to haul something large I still will, because my components are still the same as the 1 ton, Dana 80, Dana 60, and NV4500HD tranny.
    GWMoore,
    Dodge does not make a single wheel 3500
    (1 ton), that is why I bought a 2500 Cummins, so I thought....................Bill
  • That is why I bought the Cummins w/5spd, 460 ft. lbs. and great mileage. The noise I am use to at work, a diesel is like music and fuel is like an alternate to after shave lotion. Actually my Cummins is pretty quiet even compared to my old 1998 5.9 (gas) Ram...............Bill
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    Last time I checked, Dodge only offers the 3500 in duellys. They might want to change that soon since there are contractors like me who need the heavier payload but desire a slimmer truck for city applications and simply cheaper sticker price.
  • gwmooregwmoore Posts: 230
    Did dodge offer the 3500 w/o the dually in the former body style? Seems kinda strange not to, I see tons of construction types around here, like Roc, with 1-ton fords w/o dually. Dodge may be smart about marketing, starting the whole diesel thing with Cummins, quad cab, etc., but they miss the boat with the lack of a crew cab and dually-only 1-tons.

    Regardless of the 19,000 lbs (V-10) or 18,000 (Cummins), I'm guessing the Cummins would be a good choice for sjh3, who sounded like he had a prefference for the Cummins anyway.

    How much of a science is in the tow/haul ratings for these trucks anyway? I'm guessing that the manufacturers may be able to estimate the payload/tow rating within 2-3K pounds, but the specific estimate must be fairly subjective. I wonder why Dodge chose to say the V-10 has a higher rating. I know the Cummins weighs more, but it's not like you are going to break anything at 19,000 pounds vs 18,000.
  • RichinKsRichinKs Posts: 416
    I have trouble with the rating systems too. Ford and Chevrolet have different ratings depending on rearend ratio. Dodge gives the same rating for different rearend ratios and transmissions. But theres more to the rating than at what point the axle breaks. Can you accelerate on a freeway on ramp? Can you stop? I suspect the Dodge rating of 18000 for the cummins was based on the lowest capacity (automatic). I cann't believe the stick and auto are the same or the 4.10 vs 3.54 are the same. That doesn't mean I feel all autos should be rated less than manual, just the current Dodge auto. But I know this may start a war, but the V10 auto vs the Cummins auto both with 4.10 the V10 should outpull and out accelerate the cummins. And its quieter and initial cost are lower. The cummins wins all other categories. Operating cost are less and if you keep it till the body falls apart its cheaper overall to own. That does not mean my next truck (havn't received the current one yet) may not be a diesel. If Dodge and the other manufacturers come up with a strong 5 speed auto and get the noise no louder than the Ford diesel I might go that route even though I don't keep a vehicle more than 3 years. I feel alot of a diesel initial cost is recovered on trade-in, so Its not as bad as it looks to own for 3 years 36K miles. Which brings up another problem I have. When I was working I put about 32K on a truck in 3 yrs. My current truck has 52 K in less than 3 yrs. I feel the diesel engine will become a bigger seller in the next 10 to 15 yrs, but it maynot be the diesel we know now. ... Rich
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Why are you so shocked on the gas vs. diesel ratings? I've been trying to tell you that in other posts for a while. You don't need to start on the diesel advantages again. I know they will out last the truck. It wouldn't matter if the 3500 was a SRW it still would have the same running gear as the 2500 hence the same tow rating the only thing that might change is the GVW due to different spring rates. As with Ford's Super Duty line there is no drive train differences between 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. I do think it's funny that they still refer to them as 3/4 and 1 ton trucks when they both have a payload closer to 2 1/2 tons.
  • Jason,
    You are telling me that an F-250 Superduty can carry 5000 lbs. of cargo?.......Bill
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Ok, I was a little creative on the 250 but the reg cab with a weight of 4956 and a GVW of 8600 leaves a payload of 3644 or 356 lbs short of 2 tons. The 350 with a GVW of 9600 or is it 9900 lbs should be very close to that 5000 lbs. payload. I know that super cabs and crew cabs and 4x4's raise the vehicle weight reducing the payload but they're all above that "old" 3/4, 1 ton desegnation(sp?)
  • gwmooregwmoore Posts: 230
    My point on being surprised, and my tendency to contradict the ratings of the V-10 being higher than the Cummins, is that even if the V-10 might out-accellerate the Cummins at the extremes of the tow/haul loads, the diesel is working less hard and there is no question IN MY MIND which would handle 18K or 19K-pound loads better and more dependably over any period of time if pushed. Seems like that would be figured into the ratings even more than the the other small differences.

    Anyone know exactly what the weight difference is between the V-10 and the Cummins?
  • Greg,
    I am not sure what the V-10 Ram weighs but I can tell you my 2500 4x4 Ram with a Cummins weighs
    6400+ lbs. Maybe someone in this Town Hall has the Curb Weight for a V-10........Bill
  • The F-250 and F-350SRW might be more similar than you thought. The last brochure I saw, a '99, listed the same respective front and rear GAWR for both trucks. They apparently have the same springs. As far as I can tell, the only difference between the trucks that would affect the payload rating is the tires. The F250 has LT235/85R16E tires with a max load of 3042#. The F350SRW has LT265/75R16E's with a max load of 3415#.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    I seem to think they have the same axles hence the same GAWR. It's in the springs where the GVWR changes. Axle ratings and vehicle ratings are different figures. I do not believe the spring rates are the same between the 250 and 350. Am willing to be enlightened.
  • Has anyone with a V-10 noticed a decline in mileage during the cold weather? Our Diesel has dropped off about 2 mpg in the cold.

    Wildman
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