Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

2005-2007 Toyota Avalon

1227228230232233287

Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    my opinion - DBW has nothing to do with 'hesitation' per se - simply that it is certainly more difficult to send the engine/tranny the type of 'instructions' it needs to accelerate smoothly given specific foot postions on the gas pedal.
    So - what is the 'hesitation' - how about the way the transmission gear selections are programmed. Try this - driving in 'S' make a note of what the engine rpm is at 40 mph - 4000 in 2nd, 1200 in 5th. etc. Then, move the lever back to 'D' and drive normally noting as you vary your speed what gear the transmission is actually in by comparing raod speed vs. engine speed. What I think you will find is that the transmission does not downshift from let's say, 5th until the car is almost stopped, especially when 'coasting down', for example, to a traffic light or off the highway. So, as a result, the car is now moving at possibly 20 or 30 mph and it is still in 5th and now comes the problem - I want to accelerate! Depending on how hard I hit the accelerator, the correct gear from that speed should actually be 2nd - requiring a 3 gear downshift - this being where the transmission takes a fraction of a second longer to find the required gear - this being the now infamous hesitation.
    My wife's Altima 3.5, a car with similar power and a 4 speed auto defaults to 3rd gear and won't hold on top gear at anything below about 40 - and, not coincidentally, drives with less of this 'hesitation'. So WHY?
    I think the answer is obviously in how the transmission is programmed and Toyota's pursuit of that holy grail - FUEL ECONOMY. No other logical explanation - and would I trade off a few mpgs to avoid this problem - not me!
  • Elliot UdellElliot Udell Member Posts: 83
    I have a 98 Avalon and love the car but at some time I will consider buying a new one. Has anyone here owned a 98 Avalon and since bought 2006? How do the two cars compare?
  • lofgrenlofgren Member Posts: 14
    My '05 Avalon is my first of that model, but have driven Toyota products since 1981 - two Cressidas, a Camry Sport (XLE)and Lexus GS 400. The Avalon is very close to the Lexus in over-all quality and performance, in my view, although the Lexus interior vinyl and leather are a shade ahead, just barely. I plan to transfer the '05 to a family member and replace it with an'07 when these are available - not because there are any significant flaws in the '05, but because we need another car. If the '07 is as good as the '05, I will consider it another remarkable bargain.
  • hylynerhylyner Member Posts: 216
    Can we please ease up a little?
    Nobody's a troll, OK? Can we please get past that?
    If we've got a mad on about Toyota, then gripe about IT--instead the griping about Toyota seems to have morphed into griping about people.
    Disagreeing with someone's viewpoint is one thing. That's kosher.
    I don't agree there's any kind of 'design flaw' in this hesitation issue.
    I honestly believe it's a 'designed in' characteristic, not a flaw at all.
    I also believe all makes of DBW equipped vehicles do it to some degree, only that some owners notice it more than others.
    But I'm neither evil nor lackey, any more than someone who disgrees with my opinion, so why get personal at what I or anyone else opines?
    I also agree that an opportunity to get around this characteristic is now available--the controversial 'foot position adjustment'.
    It works--maybe not for everyone--so why diss it? Just try it, for starters!! It just may help!!
    I also disagree with the way some have approached this hesitation issue.
    Simply put, starting with a preconceived conclusion that it's exclusively a design flaw is no way to do problem solving. That's just another form of unsupported finger pointing.
    A cause (or solution) just might be something else--or a combination of 'something elses'--and so far this has been shown to be entirely possible, given all the various theories being talked about so far.
    So maybe we can just work a little harder to keep things civil.
    Remember, when any discussion gets off the rails, the first casualty is usually truth.
  • hoop43hoop43 Member Posts: 11
    wwest-

    I absolutely agree with everything that you said. But just to add a slightly different perspective on your thoughts for discussion purposes.

    I would expect that the response of a DBW system is much more immediate than a mechanical system. (electronic responses are in milli-seconds usually). Almost instantaneous if you will.

    Consider that also as one's foot is moved from the tip of the accelerator pedal, up to the mid point it will take a corresponding smaller amount of movement (angular foot movement) to get the same effect on acceleration / speed (shorter lever - better control).

    Also as one's foot is moved up the accelerator pedal the angle of the foot to the leg would seem to become more perpendicular, or more natural/comfortable.

    Also the resistance to foot movement will be a little greater higher up on the pedal making it much easier to control foot movement.

    With your toe extended beyond perpendicular and no resistance to movement (resistance allows some relaxation of muscles, foot weight is somewhat balanced against the resistive force), your foot will become fatigued and it will be more difficult to control precise foot movement.

    So I believe that with a smaller foot movement from a more comfortable position that the control of foot movement will be much more steady and controlled. We are talking about very small movements here.

    With age we tend to not have the same level of muscle control and even dead spots in movement as you suggest.

    Now given that the avalon transmission tends to stay in higher gears as the car decelerates; then if the accelerator pedal movement to subsequently accelerate comes slowly (relatively speaking) or erratically because of very slight eradicate foot movement ("dithering" as one poster called it), it is easy for me to imagine that the control unit might initially have some trouble deciphering which gear to put the transmission into.

    Anyway just meandering thoughts to consider and contemplate.

    Regards
  • zekeman1zekeman1 Member Posts: 422
    I had a 98 XLS and now have an 05 LTD - the 05 is bigger, more plush/comfortable & more refinement. I think it's a better car and mine has been exceptional. No hesitation with the transmission/engine and my foot on the pedal is like all the other cars I've owned...all Toyota's & one Lexus. I think it's a terrific bargain.
    zekeman1
  • retired7retired7 Member Posts: 133
    Consider this:
    I observed a X/C bicycle with a clips in foot pedals that mates to a clips on a type tennis shoes (locks foot to pedal)-
    Install a similar designed clip onto the center of the Avy's gas pedal and market one right foot tennis shoe with corresponding clip that will lock your shoe/foot to middle of gas pedal. Selling one specially equiped tennis shoe is 1/2 the cost of a pair of shoes + shoe box can be half the size and it will take up half inventory space. Looks like we found a nitche in the market; any takers??

    NWBLIZZARD
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    Very original!

    Well, let's see...

    If you are going to trap your right foot into a shoe attached to the gas pedal, better be prepared to learn to brake exclusively with your left foot !!

    One way to "teach" drivers to do this, could be to provide a matched Left Shoe, that will clip onto the brake pedal...

    This way, you could sell TWO shoes, thus doubling income!

    But, to be honest, I'd rather keep my right foot free...

    Keep thinking, though. Somehow, you may be on the path to something that WILL work!

    havalongavalon
  • billranbillran Member Posts: 113
    There are people here that (in my mind) are Toyota lackies, that may be here from Toyota and trying to make us believe it is our fault that the car has design problems

    That may or may not be true. I have been accused as such. And I don't work for Toyota.

    But there are also, without a doubt, a few people floating around in these forums with obvious anti-Toyota agendas. Not you Al, but they are here. I am not suggesting they work for the competition, perhaps they are just die hard loyalists of competing brands. Who knows? I guess it is just the nature of internet forums.

    I have seen facts get distorted on both sides, sometimes unintentionally, and sometimes not. When that happens, it is only fair that opposing views are given a chance to be spoken without personal attacks ensuing.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    In any case, we are moving on past all the personal comments and getting back to the subject. Thanks.
  • lofgrenlofgren Member Posts: 14
    The 1000 lb cargo weight limit on the Avalon and other vehicles seems modest (GVW of 4565 and Curb Weight of 3560 lbs). Does anyone know what may be the safety margin for exceeding this?
  • lofgrenlofgren Member Posts: 14
    Further to this weight question, I note that the capacity stamped on the tires is 1433 lbs, which suggests that the cargo allowance listed by Toyota is very conservative...
  • retired7retired7 Member Posts: 133
    Survey Time!

    How many people brake with their left foot as opposed to performing double duty with the right foot?

    NW BLIZZARD
  • gerry100gerry100 Member Posts: 100
  • gerry100gerry100 Member Posts: 100
    I'm 55 years old and have owned/driven more cars than I can remember. I have never had to think about or adjust to a gas pedal.

    As a vendor to the supplier of the GP assembly used in the current Camry and Avalon , I've been peripherally involved in the development of same. Including, a few years back, of a dummy spring assembly to provide feedback and feel ( problem solved another way). The attention to detail of my customer and Toyota has been almost too much for a vendor to stand. I been in meetings where a slight variation in the surface finish on pedal assembly has been discussed ( How many here have ever seen their gas pedal?).

    Jumping from my '03 into an '06 presented no noticable difference in GP operation.

    If people with small feet have a problem with the new setup it looks like the human factors engineers at Toyota simply effed up the geometry and probably looking to fix it as we speak.
  • douglas1douglas1 Member Posts: 130
    I'm a left foot braker, have been since my father taught me to drive in the early 1960's.

    Doug
  • acco20acco20 Member Posts: 211
    How about this...............A metal contraption originating from the actual center of the gas pedal, formed to brind the end to a convienent spot,not far from the pedal..... any driver can place his or her foot on this spot any way he or she likes,,,,,the presure will be put on the middle of the pedal......all cured.... what do you think????
  • acco20acco20 Member Posts: 211
    hmmm,,,I think I misspelled a word or two...............
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    Does have merit... A second class lever, I believe? The convenient spot would probably be on the floor below the existing pedal. If so, it would become a low-lying pedal with a bottom hinge.

    A drawback might be that if anything rolled behind the bottom hinge it could get stuck there and block the pedal motion... Probably a reason why pedals nowadays are hinged at the top?
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    If people with small feet have a problem with the new setup it looks like the human factors engineers at Toyota simply effed up the geometry and probably looking to fix it as we speak.

    Exactly, it's an ergonomic issue more than anything else. It should be simple to lower the position of the pedal "sweet spot" in future Avalons. But I'm curious to see what kind of fix they may offer to current '05-'06 Avalon owners. It will probably require replacing the entire gas pedal assembly (not just the pedal itself) with a longer one.

    havalongavalon
  • deaniedeanie Member Posts: 172
    Hi All:
    I use my left foot to hold the car at a stoplight so my right foot can rest on the gas pedal so when the light turns green, the left foot releases the break as I simultaneously give the car gas with my right foot, eliminating the time lag present when conventionally moving your right foot from the brake to the gas. Net result: I'm almost always the first to pull away from a light without resorting to "flooring it".

    I almost never apply the brake with my left foot while the car is moving - it feels alien and counter-intuitive despite the obvious logic behind using both feet. Having my left foot planted on the dead pedal or planted elsewhere on the left side of the floor gives the right foot more leverage (and eases lower back stress) than having to use both feet without being able to plant one foot for support. I suppose if one is taught to use both feet when learning to drive then using two feet to drive may seem natural. But to me it's as natural as speaking Esperanto (a language I do not speak).

    Regards,
    Deanie
  • lofgrenlofgren Member Posts: 14
    ".... the first to pull away from a light..."

    With the increasing frequency of red-light running, being quick off the mark may be a questionable practice.

    The now-common appearance of red-light cameras emphasizes the need for caution on the part of those who have the green.
  • limiteddriverlimiteddriver Member Posts: 234
    First, IMHO there's nothing to fix because there's nothing broken as you have shown in your posts; second I think anyone that buys a car adjusts to where the pedals are in the new car because they won't be in the same place as they were in their previous car.
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    Thank you limiteddriver for pointing out that I was apparently forgetting my earlier posted findings. In fact, I was getting ahead of myself when talking about the need for a 'fix'.

    Here I will reply to your comments and then explain more carefully what I think needs fixing, and why.

    First, IMHO there's nothing to fix because there's nothing broken as you have shown in your posts;

    Nothing is 'broken' indeed; but in this case the contemplated 'fix' is about improving or correcting a gas pedal design that may not work correctly for at least some drivers.

    ...second I think anyone that buys a car adjusts to where the pedals are in the new car because they won't be in the same place as they were in their previous car.

    In my initial analysis I had thought so myself, and I believe that re-positioning the foot to press higher on the pedal may solve the 'hesitation' problem for a good number of drivers who were pressing on the bottom of the gas pedal; but this remedy may not work for "anyone".

    I now think that small drivers with small feet cannot fully adjust to the 05-06 Avalon gas pedal, purely for ergonomic reasons: they fall outside the range of leg and foot dimensions that are correctly served by this pedal design.

    And here comes (Gasp!) a True Confession: MY WIFE is a Toe driver, and she really can't help it...!

    At 5'2" and women's shoe size 5, I believe that my wife should fall within the normal range of Avalon drivers. But in fact, she can only reach the middle of the gas pedal by lifting her lower leg to an angle where her heel is no longer supported on the floor.

    In several of size 5 shoes, with heels of various heights, I measured the distance from the back edge of the heel to the sole under the ball of the foot. This distance, of course, gets shorter for shoes with higher heels (first described by Pithagoras) and this is compounded for fashion shoes with high heels angled steeply forward.

    This distance varied between 6" for flat-heeled shoes, to only 4" for high-heeled shoes.

    The bottom edge of the Avalon gas pedal is 4" up from the floor and the "sweet spot" on the gas pedal is 6" above the floor.

    So my wife has two options: either she lifts her lower leg to a more horizontal angle to reach the target "sweet spot" on the gas pedal, or she keeps her heel resting on the floor but then makes contact only on the lowest part of the gas pedal.

    Both of these options have drawbacks. If she lifts her leg this leads to muscle fatigue, making it harder to control the pressure on the pedal. It's OK to lift your leg to press occasionally on the brake pedal, but not on the gas pedal. As we have discussed in this forum, uneven input to the gas pedal may be a cause for occasional engine surges and uneven shifting. If she presses on the bottom of the gas pedal, this definitely can cause variability in pressure input leading to occasional engine surges and uneven shifting. Neither option is good for her.

    I have tried placing a 2" spacer on the floor for the right heel to rest on, but it would have to be easily removable and I don't like the idea of it shifting around unexpectedly. Asking a female driver to always wear running shoes to drive and then switch to her high heels before stepping out of the car is not a very reasonable expectation, either.

    I would like to hear from more Avalon drivers who have short legs and small feet -- do you have a similar problem and how are you are dealing with it?

    havalongavalon
  • limiteddriverlimiteddriver Member Posts: 234
    As usual you make good points and I can understand your wife's problem.
  • easttexaseasttexas Member Posts: 23
    Interesting Survey. Add another left foot breaker to your list. Been driving like that for a coons age...to do it any different I would crash and go boom.
  • neil5neil5 Member Posts: 118
    I am rapidly get miles on new 06 Av Limited. I am planning a trip end of the month, when would you suggest first oil change? What else do they do?
  • mem4mem4 Member Posts: 52
    On new vehicles I always change the oil at 1000 miles and at 5000 miles and every 5000 miles after that. I like to get the oil out after the first 1000 miles so most of the little metal shavings from the engine breaking in are removed.
  • abfischabfisch Member Posts: 591
    Nothing for nothing buddy, but just maybe, the Avalon was meant for you and not meant for smaller persons. My wife is the same size as yours, and she doesn't really like driving my Avalon. That is why she has her Honda Civic. It is much more comfortable to her. Conversely, I am too old and feable to crawl in and out of a Civic every day.

    Sounds strange to make more than it is.

    abfisch
  • abfischabfisch Member Posts: 591
    That would mean that somebody really cared about your experience when they take your money. Time wise, checking air pressure in their cars is probably cost prohibitive. Just "fill eer up and let err roll".

    abfisch
  • finfin Member Posts: 594
    Add one more wife with small feet... and she does not like to drive my Avalon, just ride in it. This is one of her reasons: The accelerator is hard to control, makes the car hard to drive. Strange. She drives a V6 Honda and loves it. Her second one since '95. Maybe the "small feet" idea is true.........maybe.
  • geoshillgeoshill Member Posts: 27
    Okay, been giving the gas pedal problem some thought and have solved it. I have a rubber mat in the drivers floor and I put a 1" X 4" board about 12 inches long under the rubber mat flat on the floor just at the bottom of the gas pedal. It raises my foot just enough to hit the sweet spot on the gas pedal.

    So far no rattles, hesitation or whatever. Runs great!! My wife's junk in the pocket of the passenger door drowns out any other noises the car may have.
  • tstrick320tstrick320 Member Posts: 64
    I remember reading (or had a vivid dream) about "training" the Navigation voice command system so that it understands my voice better. While I actually like and use the NAV system a lot, the voice command feature is pretty much just there for comedy effect right now.

    I've looked through my manuals, the setup screens, and the "My Avalon" CD but can't find this. Does anyone know how to do this?

    Thanks,
    Tom
  • just__mejust__me Member Posts: 508
    havalongavalon, Lets not forget that once your past the starting stage traveling down a major highway doing 65, even if you're a toe driver, with constant pressure on the gas pedal the hesitation issue is not applicable. It only hesitates when starting to roll from a stop with a toe driver. Take care my friend. Good to see you and also how you discovered this. :)
  • joedbobjoedbob Member Posts: 27
    Re: "I would like to hear from more Avalon drivers who have short legs and small feet -- do you have a similar problem and how are you are dealing with it?"

    I don't quite fit those parameters, since I'm 6'5" and wear a size 15 shoe. I have a 2005 Limited with all the extras and have never had ANY trans "hesitation" problems and was intrigued with the "foot placement" discovery mentioned here lately.

    I tested the theory by contorting my leg/ankle/foot to an uncomfortable position as to only have my toes on the bottom of the gas pedal. Son of a gun! For the first time ever, I noticed a hesitation upon acceleration sometimes. I returned my foot to my normal position (mid to high on the pedal) and the hesitation disappeared. There sure must be something to all this. Hope Toyota is listening. Thanks for all the info and help.
  • scoti1scoti1 Member Posts: 676
    It only hesitates when starting to roll from a stop with a toe driver.

    Hesitation also occurs when slowing then accelerating, such as when merging into traffic, or slowing for an intersection where the light turns from red to green and needing to accelerate, or when slowing for traffic prior to making a left turn, then when there is a gap, trying to accelerate. These are also situations when hesitaiton has been experienced.

    I think it is interesting that those who do not experience hesitation can make it happen when "toe driving". I would like to hear from more people who experience the problem and whether they are toe drivers or not and if so, what happens if they lift their foot to mid-pedal.

    Honestly, I am having trouble believing this is THE problem. Could there have been such an oversight for what would be a fairly large cross section of drivers? Why aren't all small-footed drivers having this problem? Is this just a Toyota issue? I have seen a few cases of hesitation in other makes -- do they have fewer small-footed drivers than Toyota? So many unanswered questions.
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    It only hesitates when starting to roll from a stop with a toe driver.

    Hi just_me, thank you for your comments. I have to agree with scoti1, though, that episodes of engine surges or erratic shifting can also happen when toe-driving while cruising at highway speeds if you accelerate abruptly. Toe-driving makes it harder to control the gas pedal at any speed, I think.

    Take care,

    havalongavalon
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    Son of a gun!

    Thank you joedbob for this confirmation! Also my thanks to other posters who recently were able to confirm the finding that position on the pedal seems to matter.

    havalongavalon
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    Okay, been giving the gas pedal problem some thought and have solved it. I have a rubber mat in the drivers floor and I put a 1" X 4" board about 12 inches long under the rubber mat flat on the floor just at the bottom of the gas pedal. It raises my foot just enough to hit the sweet spot on the gas pedal.

    Hi geoshill,

    Yes, this can certainly work, except it is not convenient if you alternate often between two drivers with different foot sizes. I find that raising the floor is not comfortable for me, unfortunately.

    havalongavalon
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    Since it may be difficult or dangerous to experiment with changing foot position while driving, here is a simple test that you can do in your driveway or any well ventilated place.

    Start the engine but leave it in Park. Turn off the radio and fan so you can hear the engine. Watch your tachometer. Now try to HOLD THE RPM for 10 seconds or so at CONSTANT RPM and then SMOOTHY increase the engine speed by even increments of 500 RPM, holding for several seconds at each RPM level: 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000.

    Repeat this test after changing the place where you push on the pedal. Go back & forth a few times between stepping on the "sweet spot" half-way up the gas pedal, and stepping on the bottom of the pedal.

    You should observe a very noticeable difference in the ease with which you can maintain any given RPM and, especially, in SMOOTHLY INCREASING the engine speed to the next target RPM level when your foot is more vertical and stepping higher on the pedal, compared to "toe-driving" on the bottom of the pedal.

    Pressing on the bottom of the pedal is more sensitive and erratic and this position can make it more difficult not to overshoot the target RPM levels.

    havalongavalon
  • easyrider300measyrider300m Member Posts: 1,116
    so I guess SIZE (of the foot) does matter....
  • regisregis Member Posts: 94
    "I have a rubber mat in the drivers floor that raises my foot just enough to hit the sweet spot on the gas pedal"

    Me too. That must be the reason why my small feet have not experienced the hesitation others have.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    see post 11847 - obviously agree with you, while everybody is seemingly consumed with this foot position stuff (which does make a difference), I think the real cause is the transmission's tendency to hold onto too high gears, a 'programming' issue based on Toyta's desire to wring out every possible mpg. I would bet that the upcoming switch to a 6 speed in the '07 might actually have more 'hesitation'
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Unlikely, as the Camry with the 6 speed auto is already out. Haven't heard any complaints yet. Toyota said that the transmission downshift has been greatly improved over the 5 speed model and I believe it. I will find out soon as I personally am going to test drive an SE V6.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    maybe so and would be interested to know what you find. But, I have never seen anything mentioned about it in any of the multiple tests and reviews done on the Avalon over the last year, either. If we are to attribute the 'hestitation' to gear searching on multiple gear downshifts and we also accept that our transmissions are 'designed' to hold onto the highest gears possible (for economy?), then adding a gear would logically aggravate the 'problem'.
  • retired7retired7 Member Posts: 133
    Has anyone compared driving/hesitation in the "S" mode and using "sweet spot" on gas pedal vs driving in regular "D" mode using "sweet spot"?

    Like to hear from any of Toyota's or Suppliers design engrs out there who would know what were the design considerations/attributes used in the design of the Avy's gas pedal?

    NWBLIZZARD
  • retired7retired7 Member Posts: 133
    Watch out for termites!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    have certainly tried it - driving in 'S' seems to make 4th the default gear, so things do improve on reapplication of throttle a bit simply because, I guess, that the downshifts involve one less gear. Truly shifting manually does, of course, eliminate any gear searching but defeats the purpose of the auto. trans.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    I think most modern 6 speed auto can downshift multiple gears at once. If you really hammer the throttle you could go down from 6th to 4th without going through 5th. At least that is how it works in the new IS with the 6 speed auto.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    But I do agree with you about the transmission holding onto to the highest gear possible for the sake of fuel efficiency and emission ratings. I doubt Toyota will modify that aspect of the transmission behavior if it results in lower gas mileage and emission rating.
Sign In or Register to comment.