Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Infiniti M35/M45 2006+

15681011185

Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I've heard of some trouble reports on early first model year GXs, but I dont know too much about it. I didnt hear anything major like a recall or anything. As a matter of fact, I dont remember the last time Lexus initiated a recall. Have they ever? GM on the other hand, theres at least one a week. The GX, from its relation to 4Runner, doesnt offer a lot of the features that RX330 has, the air suspension, back up camera, active headlights, etc. While the GX can be configured as 7 passenger, the rear most seat is basically for small kids only. If you really want some fuel economy, Lexus will offer the RX400h for the '05 model year. With that car, you can expect 35 city\30 highway+. Or at the very least 2x what the JGC will get. In addition, the 40hp electric will fill in the bottom of the torque curve (electrics make 100% of available torque at 0 RPM onward (take THAT hemi) so that helps while the 3.3L winds up to the fat part of the powerband. 0-60 is expected to be mid to low 7 second range.
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    Are you opposed to the Hemi? What's not to like? 340HP, 390 ft-lb torque and good gas mileage with Chrysler's MDS and cheap.

    Electric hybrids definitely help with low end torque, but now there are 2 motors to service, first time buyers will be guinea pigs, and very few mechanics are going to know how to fix any problems with it, so the few who do are going to charge a butt-whomping premium.

    Plus, those hybrids now are selling at a premium so there goes the gas savings.

    As is the case with BMW's i-drive, IMO it's usually a good idea to hold back and let someone else pay to test the technology with electric hybrids.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,093
    >As a matter of fact, I dont remember the last time Lexus initiated a recall. Have they ever?

    Oh, definitely. Check NHTSA.gov.
    2001 & before - skipped
    2002 - ES300(2)
    2003 - GX470(2)
    2004 - none
    () shows how many recalls.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Um, Toyota and Honda have been selling hybrid cars for roughly 5 years now. This is not exactly untested, ultra bleeding edge stuff. Also, the batteries are covered by 100K warranties.

    Generally, I am not a fan of OHV engines. Much like the Carter era Fox platform that is under the '04 Mustang, yeah its cheap. And its also dated and inefficient. When Japan has 5.0L DOHC V8s pushing past 500hp, what will Chrysler do then? 7.0L OHVs? 8? 10?

    How many cars were actually recalled?
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    Um, Toyota and Honda have been selling hybrid cars for roughly 5 years now. This is not exactly untested, ultra bleeding edge stuff. Also, the batteries are covered by 100K warranties.

    Fair enough. I'm looking forward to seeing them in action.

    Generally, I am not a fan of OHV engines. Much like the Carter era Fox platform that is under the '04 Mustang, yeah its cheap. And its also dated and inefficient.

    What's wrong with cheap? If an OHV v8 outperforms and is cheaper than a DOHC v8, why should that be a problem for the consumer?

    How are Hemi or GM's LS engines dated? They're brand new engine designs and have tons of new technology in them. The Hemi is on Ward's 10 best engines list beating out tons of DOHC v8s. GM's LS engine would be on Ward's 10 best too but the Corvette is $2,000 north of the $50k cutoff.

    And how are modern OHV V8s inefficient? GM's 5.7L LS6 gets more HP, more torque, better gas mileage and is a MUCH smaller engine than BMW's 5.0L M5 v8.

    Did you look at that link I posted where GM's 5.7L LS v8 engine was put into a BMW 3-series engine bay with 13 inches to spare, while the BMW M5 5.0L v8 barely fit?

    When Japan has 5.0L DOHC V8s pushing past 500hp, what will Chrysler do then? 7.0L OHVs? 8? 10?

    Then Japanese engineers will be doing something that German engineers couldn't. BMW's e39 M5 5.0L v8 made 394HP@6,600rpms and 368ft-lb@3,800 rpms. Unless Ferrarri or Porsche make a more powerful v8, there is no naturally aspirated DOHC V8 that is more powerful than the v8 in the e39 M5. As impressive as BMW's 5.0L v8 is, it still falls short of the 5.7L LS6 v8 and the 6.0L LS2 v8, both of which produce 400HP and 400 ft-lb of torque.

    You're focusing on specific output (HP/L of displacement) as the only measure of efficiency. But HP/L of engine volume is an equally valid measure of efficiency, and by that measure, the OHV v8s are killing the DOHC v8s.

    OHV v8s can increase displacement without getting much larger because cams, valves, pushrods, rockers and other components are stuffed within the valley of the V, which is wasted space on DOHC v8s.

    I don't see what's wrong with increasing displacement as a solution to improving engine efficiency. With DoD, larger displacement engines actually become more gas efficient because with the greater torque reserve, the engine can slip into half cylinder/gas saving mode more frequently.

    Besides, so what if OHV v8s get 7L of displacement? As long as the engine fits in the car, is affordable, provides gobs of power and gets great gas mileage, who cares?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Wasnt the E39 M5 4.4L and not 5.0L? The S2000 made 120hp\litre with the old 2.0L 4 banger. 100hp\litre is enough for a 500hp 5.0L V8. If Japan is going to achieve that without hybrid power, Nissan will be the one to do it. Toyota will most likely match them with a roughly 400hp 8 with a 100+ hp DC electric.

    Maserati's NA 4.2L V8 has 400hp. I'm anxiously awaiting to see what Nissan will do with the GT-R. If its anything like the old car, it will be in the $50K range, which will hopefully give the Corvette competition.

    Most of my dislike of OHV just comes form its unrefined feel though. I drive an LS and an XKR, and I'm tired of the XKR's whiny droan compared to the silken LS. All out performance just doesnt mean as much to me as does the engines ability to be quiet so I can listen to my tunes.
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    Wasnt the E39 M5 4.4L and not 5.0L?

    No, the 4.4L v8 with valvetronic debuted with the first Bangled 7-series. I think it makes 325HP. The M5 version of the v8 is a 5.0L. See this link.

    http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Car.php?carnumber=19&randomc- - - ar=1

    S2000 made 120hp\litre with the old 2.0L 4 banger.

    Oh the specific output is great, but doesn't it have to rev to around 8,000 rpms to get there? And no 2L 4 banger is going to get good torque. Maybe around 160 ft-lb or so at best.

    100hp\litre is enough for a 500hp 5.0L. If Japan is going to achieve that without hybrid power, Nissan will be the one to do it.

    Well just b/c Honda hit 120HP/L with its DOHC I4 doesn't mean that specific output will translate over to a v8. Bigger cams, 4 cams vs. 2, balancer shaft, more and bigger valves creating more air turbulence, etc. will translate into valvetrain and friction losses.

    If BMW could only achieve a specific output of 80HP/L with the M5 v8, I doubt Nissan will improve BMW's specific output by 25% and hit 100HP/L. BMW engineers are no slouches.

    Maserati's NA 4.2L V8 has 400hp.

    That's a Ferrarri engine in that car. 400HP@ 7,000rpm and 333 ft-lb@4,500. With 0.8L less displacement than the M5 v8, it produces only 35 ft-lb of torque. Pretty damn impressive. However, it still falls short of the Corvette's LS6 or LS2.

    The only way a v8 can get that kind of specific output is by being a flat-plane v8, instead of being a cross-plane v8 like the LS, Hemi and the M5 v8.

    Flat plane v8s will be smaller than and more efficient than cross plane v8s b/c flat plane v8s don't have a balancer shaft, but their NVH is terrible. Not a problem for a sports car, but not suitable for a luxury sedan.

    I wonder whether the 4.2L Ferrarri v8 is smaller than the LS2 or LS6. Nevertheless, if the relatively cheap LS OHV v8s can compete with incredibly expensive Ferrarri v8s, I think the OHV v8s are doing OK.

    Ferrarri can probably make a 5.0L v8 that whips the LS and Hemi, but that engine is going to cost a small fortune.

    I'm anxiously awaiting to see what Nissan will do with the GT-R. If its anything like the old car, it will be in the $50K range, which will hopefully give the Corvette competition.

    Unless it has a Ferrari type flat plane v8 with 5.0L of displacement or a cross-plane 5.0L DOHC v10, it ain't going to be competition for the Corvette. 7.0L 500HP, 500 ft-lb LS7 v8 is coming up next year for the new generation Corvette Z06.

    Supposedly GM can hit 550HP or so easily with the LS7, but can't meet emissions. One advantage of DOHC is with VVT on exhaust, DOHC can increase HP without having emissions issues.

    GM has incorporated VVT into an OHV v6 engine. Hopefully they'll incorporate VVT into the LS engines at some point in the future so they can unlock the full HP in the LS engines without being limited by emissions issues.
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    Most of my dislike of OHV just comes form its unrefined feel though. I drive an LS and an XKR, and I'm tired of the XKR's whiny droan compared to the silken LS. All out performance just doesnt mean as much to me as does the engines ability to be quiet so I can listen to my tunes.

    Well then you won't be happy with a Ferrarri engine, that's for sure :)

    I forgot how much into music you are. I agree that NVH wise, DOHC v8s beat up on OHV v8s, no contest.

    Still, a DOHC straight 6 beats DOHC v8s in terms of NVH.

    I was seriously considering a Trailblazer b/c GM's 4.2L I6 in that car is SMOOTH. Unfortunatley, it's a phenomenal engine mated to a nice looking, but shoddily built, SUV with an ugly interior.

    Toyota has buttloads of money. They should copy GM's strategy and build a big displacement DOHC straight 6 for their big SUVs instead of the cruddy v8s they have in there now. Then they'd have even better NVH for all you Mark Levinson fans.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Toyota iron block 4.7 is hardly the best power or torque in its class, but it is significantly smoother than anything thats available from Nissan, Chevy, Dodge, or Ford. Not that I'm going to buy a 4Runner V8 or LC any time soon anyway. Toyota's corporate 3.3L gets the job done. Compared to the GS300 with its straight six, the RX330 is much quieter (though Im sure this also has A LOT to do with the GS300 being 6 years old). Unlike GM, they (much like Nissan and Honda) tend not to make a lot of different application specific engines. The straight six was unusual in that respect for them, and its getting killed off, most likely for a 3.5L that will spread with various output across the range from Camry to GS350.

    Toyota does have a truck specific 4.0L 245hp\282ft.lb. VVTi V6, but I havent driven one.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    .. is that the "cruddy" 4.7L Toyota V8 is expected to gain VVTi for 2005.

    ~alpha
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    Well the "cruddy" v8 I was talking about is the one in the Sequoia. I presume it's used in a bunch of their SUVs, but I don't know for sure.

    A friend wanted me to provide the "muscle" to help her pick stuff up from IKEA and she has a Sequoia. She doesn't like to drive so I drove it to IKEA for her and back. Our conversation went something like this:

    Me: "Geez, this car handles like a pregnant cow elephant."

    Her: "It's a full size SUV, what do you expect?"

    Me: "This thing needs a v8."

    Her: "It has a v8."

    Me: "This v8 sucks."

    Her: "Shutup and just lug my furniture."

    I don't understand why Toyota can make such a wonderful 4.0L and 4.3L DOHC v8 for the LS400/430 and GS400/430 and can't do the same for their SUVs, which are bigger sellers. Makes no sense to me.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Pre '98, the Land Cruiser and LX450 were getting buy on a huge 4.5L V6. Toyota has been very hesitant about building a large displacement 8. Why, I dont know. They finally are coming around though, thanks mostly to the Armada\Titan's awesome 5.6L DOHC V8 that takes on the best the domestics have got.
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    They finally are coming around though, thanks mostly to the Armada\Titan's awesome 5.6L DOHC V8 that takes on the best the domestics have got.

    Not for long. 6.1L Hemi is coming out next year and so is GM's 6.0L LS2 powered trucks. Don't know the stats on the Hemi, but GM's LS2 powered trucks are supposed to make 385 HP and 400 ft-lb of torque.

    I think Ford is making a 6.2L OHC engine called the "Hurricane" as well.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    far from the topic of the M35/M45. Anyone have anything informative/ critical/constructive to say about the cars that we're supposed to be talking about?

    ~alpha
  • fugafanfugafan Posts: 6
    I couldn't agree more - I was wondering the same thing myself. Almost decided not to visit this forum any longer as it did not seem to have anything to do with M35/45 discussions.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    Yeah, I know we've veered off topic - my bad. Hopefully we'll get some more info soon.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    I noticed that Edmunds has a First Drive of the upcoming STS. Any idea if they will have one of the M35/45 and if yes, when?

    Thanks!
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "far from the topic of the M35/M45. Anyone have anything informative/ critical/constructive to say about the cars that we're supposed to be talking about?"

    Probably a result of zero new info about the 2006 M, official or unofficial, recently. You can now "package" options on their preliminary pricing site.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The problem is people already know whats on it. The V6 and V8 and transmission is already known, plus the AWD system, what it looks like, and what its going to offer. Wheres the debate in that?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    Wish I knew! We don't know what's coming before the articles go live, or just before. They usually post a first drive article as soon as the vehicle is available for testing, though.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • plinaplina Posts: 33
    I have been tracking the prices of the 2005 M45 on the Infiniti website and have built a M45 6 cylinder AWD fully loaded and is $58,000. This is ridiculous, I paid $50,195 for my 2003 V8 fully loaded with chrome rims.
    Infiniti does not want this car to sell and they have totally turned me off, I love my M45 but when my lease is over I will get the Audi A6 with the 8 or a 6 or maybe a Phaeton and save a few thousand in the process, it takes time to compete with the Germans but Infiniti just want to charge ridiculous money and they have lost a long time Infiniti owner me!!!!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I wouldnt believe anything you see on the "build your M" thing they have going. Infiniti has been changing that tag literally every 3 days. It is NOT official pricing.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    First, as lexusguy said, those prices are "tester" prices, and not final at all.

    Second, you're adding up $2600 worth of "body enhancements", such as chrome wheels, aero body kit, and spoiler.

    The estimated base price of the V6 AWD is $43,800.

    Journey Package: $2750

    • Climate-controlled front seats with internal ventilation; provide cooling and heating functions
    • High Intensity Discharge (HID) xenon low-beam headlights with adaptive front lighting
    • 230 Watt audio system; 8-speaker, 2-channel stereo system with AM/FM, in-dash 6-disc CD auto changer, and MP3-CD playback
    • RearView Monitor displays area behind vehicle, in real time, when vehicle is reversing via dash-mounted color LCD screen
    • Pre-Crash Seatbelts; When hard braking is necessary, pre-crash seatbelts react by retracting the seatbelt to pull the driver and front passenger into their seats, helping to position them for airbag deployment in the event that an accident is imminent.
    • Electronic compass within inside mirror
    • Homelink® Universal Transceiver offers control for compatible garage doors, home lighting and home security systems

    Technology Package (including Journey Package): $6750

    • Infiniti Navigation System with 8-inch color LCD screen, Birdview™, DVD-ROM database and voice activated destination entry
    • 300+ Watt, 14-speaker, 5.1-channel surround sound audio system with AM/FM, in-dash 6-disc CD autochanger, DVD-Audio playback, and MP3-CD playback
    • Intelligent Cruise Control uses computerized laser sensors and a digital rangefinder to identify vehicles ahead while automatically maintaining the pre-set following distance
    • Lane Departure Warning generates an audible warning to alert the driver of the vehicle's unintended lane departure
    • Satellite Radio (choice of XM® or Sirius™ service providers)*

    Premium Package (includes Journey/Technology Packages): $10,500

    • Heated and power reclining rear seats
    • Rear passenger controls for climate, audio and rear sunshade
    • 18-inch Run-flat tires
    • Power rear sunshade
    • DVD Mobile Entertainment System

    The Premium Package is basically for rear seat comfort, and I doubt many M35's will be equipped with it.

    Most will be equipped with the Journey Package (Total $46,550) or the Journey/Tech Package (Total $50,550).

    I bet the actual MSRP will be a couple thousand less than this. They're probably waiting to see how Acura prices the RL as well.
  • valuebuyervaluebuyer Posts: 24
    As it stands, the marketing data being collected by Infiniti on the US site clocks in around $50K for the AWD6 and $57K for the RWD8 - that is, both with all the bells and whistles that Marketing will use differentiate the models in the '05 market. If Acura doesn't follow suit (and jack up the RL prices over 2004), that's a $10K difference, on average.

    That's a lot of lost M Sales, no matter how you model it.

    If I were Acura, I'd let Infiniti cuts its own throat here by trying to pretend that the M model: (1) with no Sales track record (M45 sales to 2004 were the bane of any Inifiniti dealer - salespersons roll their eyes at how crappy sales have been for the 'predecessor'); and (2) the Butt-Ugly Award for design, should command a premium in the market over the 2004 pricing. And oh, how about that depreciation, folks? I love the brand, but there is no 'history' here (yet) of slower depreciation that can command higher pricing.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Totally disagree with you here.

    A similarly equipped 2006 AWD M35 (w/ Tech Package) will probably MSRP at about $48,000, about the same as the 2005 RL. These are my estimates.

    The current M45 sales have sucked, but so have the current RL sales.

    If you're talking about the design of the current M45, I agree it's ugly. But the 2006 M is a sharp looking car, certainly generating more "buzz" than the rather bland looking 2005 RL, from an exterior design standpoint.

    The "Ghosn" Infinitis, such as the G35, G35 Coupe, and FX35/45, all have low rates of depreciation. No reason to think that the new M will be otherwise.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Agreed. Infiniti has taken the gloves off, and the FX, G, and QX are all in hot demand. Nissan is willing to take chances with their styling and design, and wether you like them or not, a Murano grabs your attention and a Pilot does not. The new M is a gorgeous car, maybe even a bit more than the new GS. The RL is very Honda-esque. Its mostly conservative, and while its not offensive, its not that memorable either. I really like the TL's agressive lines, and I was hoping for more than the RL delivered in that department.
  • Is it really worth waiting for new M45 or I can just but an existing one. And if I should buy existing (2004) one, how much should I pay for fully loaded?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    Hi glennmavis - the question of whether to buy now or not is one only YOU can answer - are you eager to have the updates on the 2006, or are you happy to buy the 2004, with its current styling and features? How long do you intend to keep the vehicle? We'll be happy to help you out with specific questions, like what features you can get in each model, and resale values, though. Just let us know what you're looking for in a vehicle.

    To see what other in your area are paying for the '04, please check our Infiniti M45 Detail Page, or you can post a question in our discussion called Real-World Trade-In Values.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • wibblewibble Posts: 569
    You should be looking at $7000 off MSRP at least. Make sure you're going to keep it. I got a 2003 M45 stickered at $47455 for $37455. Due to circumstances I had to give it up 9 months later. The best offer I got on it was $33500. It is a great car but only at the right price.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I would really suggest waiting. There are HUGE differences from the old car to the new, they go much deeper than new sheetmetal. Even if you can stomach the current cars looks, or complete lack thereof, if you're looking for sport, it basically doesnt deliver. I would suggest a late model 540i if you've got to have a car right this minute.
Sign In or Register to comment.