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Comments
Currently, Highlander is available in 2 configurations. One emphasizes power. The other emphasizes economy.
With the hybrid Highlander, the first will emphasize power. The second will emphasize economy.
The economy version of the traditional Highlander shares both the same frame and the same engine as the Camry. So it makes very, very, very good business sense for the hybrid Highlander to do the very same thing.
This has already been pointed out several times before... by the way.
JOHN
My next purchase is very likely to be an RX330 and then wait in hopes of an I4 HL hybrid and then maybe see that one cloned into the RX.
If I should live so long....
Huh? We already know that the Highlander-Hybrid will be the power version. The specs were released back in Decemeber. Engine size is a dead giveaway.
Check the Highlander-Hybrid topic for details.
JOHN
The problem with the prius and why Toyota is holding back increasing production now, is that the car buying consumer will preceive Prius competition very shortly in the the Frode Escape 38 mpg, Honda Accord Hybrid 37 mpg, Toyota Highlander Hybrid, 30-35 mpg, Lexus RX400h Hybrid 36/31 mpg. All of which will have perfromance and handling factored in the equation. Going back to Economics 101 of supply and demand, there is pretty strong felling that the Prius demand will shift to the hybrid alternatives that offer perfromance and handling. Most people want better mileage, especially as the fas price has risen to over $2.00 per gallon ( It is going to come down in the near term) but not enough to sacrifice performance. When the Prius is Toyota's slowest perfromer, many people don't want to make that sacrifice especaiilly with the FUD of Battery replacement costs and the fact that very few, except the slow driving high mileage geeks, are getting anywhere close to the 60/51 EPA estimate.
YMMV,
MidCow
>are more interested in fuel economy rather than
>0-60 times. No one of this classs sees the need
>for V8 performance in an RX400h SUV.
I think you are completly wrong, read the whole gist of the "Are Hybrids up to the Chore" topic.
Every one is complaining that they want the handling and performance of the car they are trading in.
If mileage were the only criteria then the 50-60 mile per gallon, no frills econo-boxes of the 70-80s would still be around.
Also, it is untrue that Toyota is "holding back increasing production now" on the Prius. In fact, the situation is exactly the opposite. Toyota is opening a second production line in Japan and is considering opening a production line in the U.S. That does not sound like "holding back" to me.
It is also untrue that the Prius is Toyota's slowest (quickest?) performer, based on tests from car mags. But since this is not a comparison board, that discussion is off-topic here.
I sold my '84 Corvette to purchase a higher mpg vehicle that will accomodate my travel needs and playing golf. If you want performance, you should have bought my Corvette. I didn't buy the Prius for speed, I bought it for mpg and technology. I don't need to go from 0-60 in under 7 secs, I've been there. The Corvette was a true performance/handling car and the Prius is just fine for my type of driving which is conservative and not rushed. I cruise along at 65 mph and watch the mpg climb. I retired at age 52 after 30 yrs in the oil business. Young enough to have fun but old enough to know what I'm after. I'm running 44/42 psi in my factory tires and the ride is just fine. For those who seek performance by all means go for it. It's mpg I'm after with gas prices here in Calif at $2.38/gal and the Prius is perfect for my needs.
Does anyone know if they need undercoating in this neck of the woods here in New England? Also, does anyone know if the windows can be tinted as I won't have the navigation system.
I live in upstate NY near VT and the dealer that I went to in Feb and gave them my $500 deposit which they also immediately charged to my cc, called me last week and said that I was next on the list and that they had a "green" #6 with the preferred accessory package (yet an additional package I'd have been happy to have passed on if it were at all possible...for just under $300-for car mats, cargo net and a first aid kit...I could have went to any dept or auto store and got the same for probably not even a $100...what a racket, but what can I do except for pass on it and then who knows how long I'll be waiting for another one.)
Thanks!
Yes, YES!
Not less, but also not more at the sacrifice of fuel economy.
Put the batteries, the fuel tank, and the AWD's extra 30HP electric motor in the back with the I4 hydrid in the front and you'll have a perfectly balanced RX310h.
Why would Toyota drop production of some of the world's most popular cars?? Does the implication that the Prius earns a profit mean that the Camry and the Corolla cannot??
The current Prius is still not accepted by all because its low performance and handling.
Uhm, what car is accepted by all? Let's face it --any car that can get people to wait in line to plunk down MSRP and above must be doing something acceptable in the eyes of the consumer. Oh, and there must be a lot of low performance SUVs, BMWs, and Porsches out there because my "low performance" Prius has no trouble kissing their bumpers.
Going back to Economics 101 of supply and demand, there is pretty strong felling that the Prius demand will shift to the hybrid alternatives that offer perfromance and handling.
You mean just like the popularity of the Honda Civic went down the crapper when more powerful better handling ICE models came out? <insert muffled sounds of laughter here>
...very few, except the slow driving high mileage geeks, are getting anywhere close to the 60/51 EPA estimate.
If saving the environment and reducing our dependency on oil makes a person a geek, then America needs more geeks!!
P.S. This "geek" averaged 53.7 mpg on his last tank of gas...and didn't have to drive slow to do it --just wisely
I thought that Prius was in a class of its own. What other 4 cars did Consumer Reports put in the same class as the Prius? And how many could the Prius out accelerate?? What does "competative performance mean, that performance is not important?
Its only a matter of semantics, about Prius being the slowest Toyota. If not the slowest, maybe some 4 cylinder auto is slower, Wait the 4 cyl auto Corolla is faster, the 4 cyl auto Echo is faster, even the heavier 4 cylinder auto Camry is faster. What car does Toyota offer that is slower than the Prius? A heavy 4 cylinder truck or SUV ??
LOL
MidCow
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
I am not sure I understand some of your technical terms:
What does "moves out fast at a stoplight" mean?
What does "merges onto a freeway with room and power to spare" mean?
I am completely unclear on your 99% statement "...enjoy a nice little car that will do 99% of what you need to do 99% of the time"
How in the world di you come up with that statement? Did you survey all automobile owners over all of the world to determine their "needs' and how much of the time it met those needs and how much of the time it didn't. WoW it sounds like everyboby in the world should get a Prius!
Do you have any objective facts to support your statements?
Prius = 10.5
Corolla 4 cyl auto = 9.7
Camry 4 cyl auto = 9.2
The Prius is not comparable to their own Toyota running mates with autos and the gap widens even further when a manual is used.
Why do I post here, because I am interested in economy without having to sacrifice performance and handling. I am not interested in changing my driving habits to accommodate a car's limitations.
And many people on the hybrid forums seem to be so in love with their cars they can not provide objectivity. I provide that objectivity and counterpoint view.
YMMV,
MidCow
Accord LX 4 cylinder 5-speed automatic
1st Gear - 0.47 g
2nd Gear - 0.27 g
3rd Gear - 0.18 g
4th Gear - 0.13 g
5th Gear - 0.10 g
Comment: 5-Speed offers more efficient power delivery to the wheels.
Camry 2.4 L 4-speed automatic
1st Gear - 0.42 g
2nd Gear - 0.24 g
3rd Gear - 0.15 g
4th Gear - 0.11 g
Comment: Offers higher acceleration (g) through out all the gear than Corolla and Echo.
2004 Corolla 4-speed automatic
1st Gear - 0.40 g
2nd Gear - 0.22 g
3rd Gear - 0.14 g
4th Gear - 0.10 g
Comment: Satisfactory performance for most drivers.
2004 Echo 4-speed automatic
1st Gear - 0.40 g
2nd Gear - 0.22 g
3rd Gear - 0.14 g
4th Gear - 0.10 g
Comment: The same atisfactory performance for most drivers as Corolla.
2004 Prius HSD Planetary E-CVT
0 mph - 0.39g
20 mph - 0.40g
40 mph - 0.21g
60 mph - 0.14g
80 mph - 0.10g
As you can see, Prius drives like most other traditional 4 cylinder cars. And here is the part where Prius is faster than 4 cylinder auto Camry.
Camry 30-50mph: 6 sec
Prius 30-50mph: 5.2 sec
.
During sequential incremental shifting tests (0-60), Camry will win since it's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear thrust(g) is higher Prius from 0-60mph. But when comes to 30-50mph test, Camry will need to downshift to deliver maximum thrust(g) and then gradually upshift as the speed increases. Prius wins in 30-50mph test because the thrust(g) from 50kw motor comes at the speed of electricity without downshift delay.
Dennis
Why is it that people don't understand (or can't handle that people just don't see it the way they do) that there are many people who want an efficient and environmentally responsible car? This "Prius can't compete..." is absolute rubbish!
Hello!!!! Look at how well the Volkswagen Beetle sold? People didn't buy it for it's speed or agility, they bought it to make a statement and had fun doing it!
VW Beetle Original - 44 HP (1978). This, at the time, was even a farther gap because of the muscle cars that people "loved" and their 400 and 500 hp engines!
Of course VW only sold 200,000+ per year!
Simply said, many people prefer fast cars. Some prefer not-so-fast cars.
Why demonize the Prius?
As far as the slowest (and I assume here you mean least quick) Toyota, MT tested the Prius, Scion xA and xB at the same time and same conditions and found the Prius quicker than both of them 0-60. Other numbers posted on Edmunds.com discussions about hybrids vs. ICE cars have noted numbers for automatic Camrys and Corollas at 9.8 seconds, which is what MT has measured for the Prius. Refer also to CR's comparo on the Prius and four other cars in its size/price class. The long-term testers at Edmunds.com haven't mentioned any problems about performance--but did mention chirping the tires on takeoff. Bottom line is, the Prius' performance is in the same ballpark as comparable ICE cars. If you want to pick at a couple tenths of a second, go ahead, but the importance of that in the real world is nil.
42 mpg is very good and about what I expected.
About the same mpg you would expect on an automatic VW TDI and much lower emissions.
Will be interesting to see the mpg on the new Highlander Hybrid.
My 53.7 MPG last month wasn't as high my friend Bill, who got 56 MPG, or my friend Kou who got about 52 MPG (all calculated values, which are lower than displayed). That's 3 owners in the same area getting much, much higher with a 2004 than the test value. And my friends here, Mary & Charlie with classics, are both getting just under 50 MPG.
That quick sampling clearly shows that actual owners achieve can much higher values the testing revealed. So you can't claim it it won't happen for some.
JOHN
Like any car, mileage will vary depending on how and where you drive and the weather conditions. I don't think most people are buying the Prius for its 0-60 times or how it handles on twisting mountain roads at 60 MPH!!!! Geez!
Enjoy the car for what it is. At least Toyota is TRYING to help us fight these ridiculous gas prices unlike Detroit! The Prius would most likely be my next choice with these obscene gas prices if I didn't have to wait 8 months to get a model with the equipment that Toyota thinks I should have.
Enjoy your car!
fastdriver
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/toyota/prius/100326481/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=101393&editorialpage=page001
Once again the Prius gets great mileage just ignore the EPA estimates unlike most of the other cars on the road.
Actual Mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits and vehicle's condition. Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 51 and 69 mpg in the city and between 43 and 59 on the highway.
Best Fuel Economy: 30.0 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 14.5 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 24.1 mpg
I don't recall seeing any Edmunds.com long-term tester or a CR tester for that matter that met its EPA numbers. The best I've seen recently (compared to the EPA numbers) was the 26 mpg overall that the Malibu V6 got in CR's tests, which is very good for a V6 sedan and actually topped the test mpg for the Malibu 4 cylinder. Most midsized cars get in the low 20s for overall mpg in CR's tests. As noted earlier, the Prius got double that number.
So what! Who drives 55 anymore on the highway? You'll get killed at that speed. Enjoy the car.You're lucky that you're getting 50 MPG and not 10.
fastdriver
and maybe a little help from behind.
It is simply difficult to believe your data when the examples you are providing are 50 mpg and higher. Perhaps you have the Tornado fuel saver installed in your Prius. http://www.wcpo.com/external/dwym/c3b519.html (Disclaimer - I certainly do not believe the Tornado will actually increase mpg)
I can only speak for myself, but in the Month of May I had three tanks of about 500 miles each.
I live in downtown Washington DC, and commute about 60 miles round trip every day. About 1/3 of it is "Real" City driving and 2/3 is "Highway" on what passes for Highways in the 4th most congested Urban Area in the country.
I also run errands, and take an occasional trip out of town. This is the only car I have, so it's not just a commuter. On each of the last two tanks I took a trip up to WV which was about 150 miles round trip, and included true Highway Miles at 65 MPH on Cruise Control, and Rural Roads up there of all sorts.
My last two tanks were 60 and 61 MPG (actually, a few tenths over for each, but who's counting). The previous one I was the victim of a "Bad Fill" where the pump never shut off and apparently sucked back at least a gallon of gas before I figured out it was putting in too much, hehe. The filler neck was full to the brim and the pump was still running happily. Argh!!!.
Even with the bad fill, my three tank average for may, about 1480 miles traveled in mixed use driving, was 55+ MPG.
I really don't know what other people are getting, but I'm pretty happy with my mileage.
Obviously there are always exceptions to the norm. I'm stating that my perception is that the norm is 40-45 mpg average and the above 50's and the below 40's mpg are the exceptions.
One place keeps a thread for each month. Some people post each tank, and some people post monthly totals.
I cut/pasted the Tank Mileages and Lifetime Mileages from the entire month of May for a reference to what people are actually getting.
Each entry is a post there. Some people may be represented by multiple posts as they entered each tank.
Some folks posted in diff formats so individual tanks or lifetimes weren't available but I included everything for completeness (Well, except the International Posts - Easier to deal all with MPG, and since they don't have the bladder, who knows how the mileage may differ).
May Mileage is better for just about everyone, because of the warming, of course.
--------------
Tank Mileage: 57.7
Avg Overall Mileage: 49.5
Tank Mileage: 41.4
Avg Overall Mileage: 38.6
Tank Mileage: 63.3
Avg Overall Mileage: 58.75
Tank Mileage: 46.2
Avg Overall Mileage: 46.8
Tank Mileage 50.2
Avg Overall Mileage: 50.4
Tank Mileage 57.5
Avg Overall Mileage 48.0
Tank Mileage 40.8
Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)
Tank Mileage 52.85 (Third Tank)
Avg Overall Mileage 39.5
Tank Mileage 54.55
Avg Overall Mileage Not Given
Tank Mileage 46.461
Avg Overall Mileage Not Given
Tank Mileage 65.9
Avg Overall Mileage: 58.96
Tank Mileage 60.0
Avg Overall Mileage 50.0
Tank Mileage 47.51
Avg Overall Mileage 43.91
Tank Mileage 46.9
Avg Overall Mileage 46.9
Tank Mileage 57.5
Avg Overall Mileage: unknown
Tank Mileage 49.37
Tank Mileage 45.34
Tank Mileage 47.14
Tank Mileage 54.71
Tank Mileage 52.87
Tank Mileage 51.38
Avg Overall Mileage 47.5
Tank Mileage 41.6 MPG
Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)
Tank Mileage 55.0
Avg Overall Mileage 50.7
Tank Mileage 47.5
Avg Overall Mileage 45
Tank Mileage 46.7
Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)
Tank Mileage 47.7
Avg Overall Mileage 48
Tank Mileage 54.3
Avg Overall Mileage 48.3
Tank Mileage (4 Tank Avg): 50.8
Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given
Tank Mileage 52.61
Avg Overall Mileage: 47.05
Tank Mileage 54.7
Tank Mileage 60.91
Tank Mileage 61.53
Avg Overall Mileage 51.51
Tank Mileage 52.0
Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)
May miles 2523.8
Gallons consumed 50.487
MPG 49.98911
Highest tank 5/28-5/30 249.7 miles. 55.36585366 mpg (coincided with highest ambient temp)
Lowest tank 4/30 - 5/01 193 miles 46.28874388 (coincided with lowest ambient temp)
Average Overall Mileage - Not Given
Tank Mileage 54.0
Tank Mileage 55.5
Tank Mileage 58.2
Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given
Tank Mileage 61.93
Avg Overall Mileage 52.12
Total for the Month of May:
MIles traveled: 1734
MPG for the month: 49.8
MPG on current tank: 49.2
Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given
Tank Miles: 1,826
Gallons: 34.015
Avg Temp: 58F
Calculated MPG: 53.7
Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given
Tank Mileage 49.4
Tank Mileage: 49.96
Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given
Tank miles: ....484 .... 408 ..... 418 ..... 480
Overall Miles: .2136 .. 2544 .. 2962 .. 3442
Avg Tank Mileage 49.88
Avg Overall Mileage 48.03
-----------------
So, there's some more actual data points to consider when pondering what Real Life mileage people get from a P2
You know it is really interesting that the information you provides provides no real meaning, e.g the Camry is faster than the Prius (apprently except during 30-50 mph .8 or so downshift delay), but slower than the Corolla and the Excho even though it has hifgher g force numbers.
Your apples and oranges input, LOL but not quite as good as your one on perpetual motion from magnets generating 450% efficiency. But the absolute best was that the Prius would acclerate faster if it had a bigger battery ROTFLMAO.
The new retro-Beetle sold for a premium at first and now sales are langusihing so much that VW is thinking of dropping it.
I not sure demoniziing is the right word. It is just that the Prius is still slower than almost anything else you can buy and some people or really most people are not yet willing to give up performance for the sake of high gas mileage. And the people that are buying cars based on their environmental impact is even a much smaller number.
Where exactly do you use that "performance" ?
Dodge's lastest commercial advertises the 150MPH Magnum. What's the point when speed limits are only half that?
Since I never need 100% power to merge onto the highway with my 2004 Prius, what's the point of more power? Less than maximum clearly satisfies the need.
Some of us have discovered the speed ceiling has already been exceeded. Purchasing beyond that, for abilities you won't use (can't legally), is simply a waste of money.
Falling victim to "more is better" marketing is not something to brag about.
JOHN
It is okay for Prius owners to love their cars. What is not okay is to make statements that are untrue and ignore objective facts.
Actually, this is not your forum it is open to anyone to post.
If your time is being wasted, try driving faster or becoming XCELs buddy.
>Where exactly do you use that "performance" ?
Almost every day driving to work and then driving back home. People in Texas, drive faster and more aggressive than in Minnesota.
"faster" and "more" are vague references.
Please provide quantitative values.
You can't hide behind an "it's different here" excuse. We want actual proof. Exactly how many seconds does it take for you to merge onto a highway, at what speed, and from what distance?
Where are the facts?
You claim the current "performance" is not enough. How much more is actually needed?
JOHN
and you said "you'll get killed at that speed. ..."
and if they "enjoy the car" they will get lousy mileage.
Wow! Maybe it it the slow-paced Prius owners that waste time, don't have a life (except for this and other I Love </l> Prius boards) and don't enjoy life.
I know several that don't like vagueness, don't like any comments against the Prius and don't think perormance is necessary or at least want to redefine performance. For you I can only say have a grenn and prosperous high mileage emission free life.
One serious factor the AMA recently noted that people who live near expressways or heavy traffic areas have a significantly lower morality rate due to the effect of car byproduct polution on the lungs.
Promote Telework! End driving altogether!
YMMV,
MidCow
You know making something quantitative does not make it non-vague. The is one Prius owner that previously had a classic Prius and now has a new Prius. They post their per tank mileage and their overall mileage on their web site. Does that make the data accurate and factual, well no!. Is is audited buy an outside accounting firm , we no. Maybe the person wants to show really good mileage so the add 2 mpg to every item they post, we don't know. The point is the data is basically an opinion of that person and probably is correct, but maybe it isn't. It is very easy to use numbers and statistics to back up and justify anything even if it isn't true. There is a great book on "How to Lie with Statistics" that shows how this is done.
Looking forward to $4.00/gallon gas. The additional cost is worth it, if it changes our culture into more conservative people.
Not true, it actually does.
NEED can very precisely be measured.
WANT is an opinion, so naturally it differs from person to person.
Your use of the word "comfortably" expresses an opinion, hence still being vague.
JOHN
You are right. Those thrust(g) values for 4-speed multi gear transmission are calculated from the ideal engine torque peak. In reality, traditional car's thrust(g) should be less. In contrast, Prius E-CVT's value will be much closer to the calculated values.
"but slower than the Corolla and the Excho even though it has hifgher g force numbers."
It will be hard to make statements like that because you are talking about a fraction of a second. The thrust(g) for corolla and echo were used with the same wheel size. I don't think Echo comes with 15" wheels.
"but not quite as good as your one on perpetual motion from magnets generating 450% efficiency"
I know Minato Motor could work because I constructed a similar motor myself. The only diference is that he uses electromagnet with microchip to perfect the timing. I use my hand with PM and achieve inefficient results. There are differences between you and me. I'll leave you with a quote from JFK.
"Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why?'
I dream of things that never were and say, 'Why not?"
"But the absolute best was that the Prius would acclerate faster if it had a bigger battery ROTFLMAO"
Stop laughing and think for a second. If Prius has higher capacity battery, it can discharge more electricity during acceleration. This enables the Power Split Device(PSD) to put more horsepower to the wheel, instead of routing hp to MG1 to generate electricity. Higher capacity battery will also be able to provide enough electricity(in terms of capacity, not discharge voltage), during winter as well.
Dennis